Rob Chartrand (00:01.79)
Well, hey, we're excited to have on Church in the North, Brian Pugh. He is the founder and the executive director of the union movement based out of Abbotsford, BC, the lower mainland. Hey, Brian, welcome to Church in the North.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (00:15.502)
Rob, it's a joy to be here, man. Thanks for having me.
Rob Chartrand (00:18.59)
So much we're gonna talk about today on the podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation, but why don't we start with you giving us a little bit of a bird's eye view of your organization, the Union Movement. Our listeners might not be fully familiar with it. Talk to us, what's the Union Movement, what do you do?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (00:34.798)
Yeah, I appreciate you asking. The union is all focused on helping people find wholeness in a real gospel centered approach to sexuality, identity and relationships. So this is an organization my wife Bonnie and I started in 2018. Just we both personally have a real passion to see the church be a high ground in the sense of truth, but also a high ground in the sense of grace and restoration for people who are caught up in the brokenness of society and a lot of the
the ideology and the lies that are spreading throughout our culture, around what it means to be human, around God's beautiful gift of sexuality and the context in which he's always meant it to be in. We've just really been passionate about helping the church be that avenue of restoration and that high ground for people to run to and find safety. So that's our big passion.
Rob Chartrand (01:22.61)
Awesome. Well, hey, we're going to go deep into the organization and learning a little bit more. Exciting. Hey, listen, I wonder if you could talk about your journey in this because the organization you're involved in is really connected to your story and how God has redeemed you and created you. So let's talk about your journey into ministry and freedom. And you know, our listeners, if you go to your website, you get a bit of a snapshot of that, but it's not super deep.
So I'd love to get a little bit more time from you to share a bit of your story. take us back, take us back, I think on the website it talks about your journey out of high school and an encounter with God and walk us to the present day.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (02:01.613)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (02:05.28)
Yeah, well, you know, I think maybe like a lot of people who might be listening, this is their experience. I wasn't really looking for God in my high school years, but God was looking for me. And I know some people tend to call the Holy Spirit, the hound dog of heaven that just kind of tends to, hunt you down and get a hold of your heart. And that's exactly what God did. But, you know, as a young man, it's even flash forward before high school at five years old, I was exposed to, to pornography.
Rob Chartrand (02:32.478)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (02:33.002)
and you know, I know I may not look at, but I'm actually 40 years old. I don't, probably don't look a day over 39 is my constant joke I always use, but yeah, maybe that's it. yeah, for sure. but, yeah. So like when I was five years old and so like being 40 years old, you do the math that's long before the internet, you know what I mean? So how much more is the reality of exposure to pornography to young people? How much more is that a reality? But.
Rob Chartrand (02:41.03)
your kids keep keep you young. We'll talk about that.
Rob Chartrand (03:00.477)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (03:01.742)
Just to give you some context, that's long before the internet. I'm a five years old kindergartner, exposed to pornography. It starts to shape the way I see women. It starts to shape the way I see sexuality. And it did ignite, obviously, curiosity, which I think is a pretty natural response to kids when they see things like that. There's this mix of shame and confusion, yet curiosity and all these things. it really, over the years of me growing up as a young man,
Rob Chartrand (03:10.557)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (03:30.126)
shaped the way I saw women, shaped the way I saw what authentic masculinity was supposed to be. Gave myself to a lot of broken relationships and kind of the party lifestyle as I got into high school. I was playing sports, I was playing hockey, playing rugby and was, you know, your stereotypical party or jock kind of guy. And but just had so much brokenness and was dealing with so much depression and coping with that through pornography, through alcohol, through drugs.
You know, and then it wasn't until I was about to graduate high school in 2003 where some friends of mine had rededicated their lives to following Christ. And it started going to this kind of post-alpha. Well, they had done the alpha program through, through the church, but then kind of stayed on in this kind of post-alpha Bible study, that one of the facilitators had started just because there was a lot of kind of high school age, young adult age interests. He's like, Hey, we can keep meeting if you want. and so they invited me to come out.
And they were like, Brian, you got to come to this, this meeting. And I'm like, I'm kind of like ahead of my time. I'm like, Oh, I'm glad you found your truth. You know what I mean? Like I was pretty progressive. I was ahead of my time. You know what I mean? Um, but I'm like, Hey, like that's good for you. I'm glad that works for you, but like, I'm not really a Jesus guy. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's just not part of my life. And then they said this thing, they're like, Brian, there's free pizza. And I'm like, well, maybe I am a Jesus person. You know what I mean? Like,
Rob Chartrand (04:54.292)
Yes.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (04:56.258)
So I always encourage, you know, youth leaders and youth workers, youth pastors, when I'm sharing my story, like, Hey, do not underestimate the sanctifying, holy power of free pizza with young people. It'll, get them through the door. So maybe that's a word for somebody. Hopefully that's encouraging, but, yeah, for real. I'm unfortunately I'm celiac now though. So like, so it's like to find gluten free pizza is, is. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (05:10.097)
Amen.
Rob Chartrand (05:14.994)
They'll get me through the door. Yeah.
man, no fun.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (05:25.966)
Anyways, one day when I step through the veil into eternity, I will no longer have to deal with celiac. So it'll be great. Um, maybe it'll be gluten free pizza in heaven. I don't know. We'll see. But, um, that's, yeah, don't get me off. Don't get me started on that. Um, but, so, so anyways, they just say, Hey, there's free pizza. So I come in and, you know, I, I'm sitting there and, know, like I had a little bit of exposure to Christianity growing up, like,
Rob Chartrand (05:38.814)
Is it part of the fall? I don't know.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (05:55.695)
My mom was a dedicated follower to Christ and would take us to church. I'd go through Sunday school. I'd see Noah on the flannel graph and all that kind of stuff. But that's as far as it kind of went. So I had a little bit of understanding of like who God was and who Jesus was, just kind of from Sunday school stories. But as I'm sitting there and people are talking, they're asking questions about the scriptures and you know, I'm starting like the leader knows, the leader and facilitator of the group can kind of see
Like God's doing something in this young man, like doing something in my life. And I, he, kind of purposely geared the conversation to like really be gospel centered, like really just not, not just like theology, theology, theology in general, but like really specific to like the core beliefs around the gospel and like who God is, what man needs and the man's problem and how Jesus is the answer for sin.
All these things. so like, I'm hearing this and then he kind of closes in like this prayer time and I got my head down and I'm just closing my eyes because I'm just trying to be respectful, I guess, or whatever. And, and also I'm like hearing this crying like this and like ugly cry sounds. And I'm like, man, what's going on? It's like, I realized it's like, that's me. I'm the one crying. You know what I mean? Like what's going on? and God was just doing something in my heart and I,
Rob Chartrand (07:13.437)
Wow.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (07:21.654)
I didn't know exactly what I was signing up for. You know what I mean? In classic, in the way the Lord works, he gets you to say yes long before you actually realize all, all that you're saying yes to. but he, he was just working on my heart. just realized like, Lord, like God, need you. Like Jesus, I'm, I'm a mess and I need a savior. And, know, that started a whole process in my life because I didn't get to the areas of brokenness that I had in my life just overnight. So it's like.
Rob Chartrand (07:32.424)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (07:51.396)
It's not like all my problems went away. It was actually like three, three or four months of me kind of walking the line in the sense of like, Hey, I'm going to party Friday night, Saturday night, but I'm to go to church hung over because that's what good Christians do. You know, like that's kind of like, this is my thought, because I prayed a prayer, right? So like, obviously Jesus heard that prayer and he's going to honor his part and I get to just live however I want. And, know, and I get to go to heaven when I die. Like what a deal. but I'm gratefully, I'm grateful. The Lord did not.
let me get away with that for too long. it was really actually at a, at a party I was at and a friend of mine's basement suite where the conviction of the Holy spirit just fell upon me upon my heart. And I started to despise the beer I was holding in my hand and just realized what it represented. It represented a lack of surrender to the Lord. It represented an avenue of rebellion. And I understand there's a conversation around.
you know, moderation with alcohol and as a Christian and responsibility and freedom that way, yet stewardship. But I just realized that like, this represents so much of like my heart that's just kind of keeping God in my back pocket for when it's convenient for me. And I didn't care what it was gonna cost me after that night, after the conviction of the Holy Spirit fell on my heart in this inner dialogue the Lord was having with me. I was just like,
Rob Chartrand (08:49.352)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (09:17.423)
Lord, I want to give you my all. And I was all in that night and it cost me a lot. Like those friends who were kind of doing the same thing. was like, stopped calling and, kind of went into a season of loneliness, but, man, I started to grow really connected to my church. God brought some really great, great men into my life. Some real spiritual dads who had been walking with the Lord longer than I'd been alive. you know, so I was really able to grow and get plugged into the youth ministry and.
started serving and became a youth leader, you know, as the years continued and through our discipleship school program, which this is kind of a unique connection to how the union kind of came into being. In 2004, 2005, I was part of a part-time Bible school and discipleship school in our local church at the time. And we had a guest speaker in named Jim Anderson, who's a good friend and mentor of ours now, but he had had a similar ministry on
kind of biblical sexuality and the call that the church has to be restorative in these areas and be a voice in these areas. He had kind of been in this ministry for like 25 years. And I explained it this way, and as he was teaching in this kind of week, in this week of teaching that he was doing, he was essentially putting my life on the whiteboard. I just sat back and I could just see so much of my own story, the lies I had believed, how the enemy distorts the beautiful gift of God.
that God's given humanity of sexuality to be something that it's not, to take it out of the context it's supposed to be in, and to distort really what it means to be human, all to weaken the nations, all to weaken the church, all to hinder, try to hinder the plans and purposes of God, and how the church is supposed to be a counterculture, how it's supposed to be a catalyst in these areas to declare the hope and redemption we have in Jesus. And so,
As I was remember to sitting there, there'd be a little bit of teaching that would go on and it's like, again, the Lord is just doing so much work in my heart. I'd put my head down on my desk and cry and then like lift my head up and then like taking some more teaching and back down on my desk. That was kind of a mess. I'm a pretty emotional guy. I'm a pretty passionate guy. So I feel things pretty, pretty strongly, but, yeah, I just remember in that moment, Lord saying to the Lord, God, I want to give my life.
Rob Chartrand (11:29.075)
Wow.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (11:40.592)
for this message so that my generation doesn't have to experience what I did. yeah, so that was in 2004, 2005. And as my wife and I got married in 2007, this topic became kind of like a life message for us. And as we were serving in young adult ministry, it's like we had a lot of people coming to us, asking us questions. We were able to speak to these things. And this was just what we were living and what we were really passionate about.
Rob Chartrand (11:57.651)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (12:10.152)
seeing this beautiful gift be the way God always intended it to be and the hope that we have in the gospel for when there's a distortion of this gift, you know,
Rob Chartrand (12:20.914)
So just really quickly for framing, during this time you weren't full-time ministry or part-time ministry in the church. What were you doing? Were you in school? Were you working?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (12:27.543)
No.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (12:30.953)
Yeah, I was working a job. I was working for a geothermal heat pump or geothermal heating and cooling residential company. I was as well. Bonnie and I got married in 2008. I should back up. So we got the sorry we're married in 2007. I should get this right. This is going to be online. Just get this right. Exactly. Yeah, we just celebrated 18 years in last November or so or the most recent November. But I was working in construction.
Rob Chartrand (12:47.454)
Yeah, it does say 2007 on your website, so.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (12:59.695)
for a while and then in 2008 we had we had our kids that's why that 2008 was important we had our first set of twin boys who are now 17 which is wild but then there was kind of that whole economic downturn and so my my job situation changed and there's a couple years of craziness of trying to figure out okay like what am going to do for work and for provision and then I ended up working for for six years for a geothermal heat pump company
doing installations and services and things like that, all that while, like this passion for the church to be a strong place of clarity and conviction, yet compassion on this topic was just really in our heart. I stepped into ministry working for a Christian organization that was helping churches with kind of healthy church assessments and leadership training and things like that.
I did that for two years and then that, you know, the Lord kind of orchestrated this transition for us. And it was in that time that our pastors at the time said like, really like what's in your heart, you guys, like if, if money wasn't an option, like if you could do whatever or wasn't an issue, mean, if money wasn't an issue, what would you do? And, and it was really in that time in 2018 now that we're like, this is what we would do. We would start this ministry.
and this would be our heart, this would be our focus. And so that started our whole kind of journey in starting this organization. there was times early on where I was able to do it full time. We were able to raise funding because we're a partner driven organization. And we were able to raise the funds to kind of be missionaries in our own nation this way. And there were times where I had to kind of be bivocational just to.
do take care of my family and meet those responsibilities. But now these last two, three years, we've been able to be locked in as the young kids say. I don't know if they still say that or not. But I don't know if that's cool or not to say that. But we've been just full time. This is what we do day in, day out.
Rob Chartrand (15:13.126)
Wow. Did COVID affect your organization?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (15:17.264)
Oh, yeah. Yes, it did. Well, because a little fine tuning thing here, a little detail was I also around the same time in 2018, we started the union. also took a position as a campus pastor with our local church and we launched we launched three months before COVID hit. So just a great church growth strategy. It's a worldwide epidemic. So we ended up I ended up
Rob Chartrand (15:24.478)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (15:34.554)
wow.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (15:46.993)
that campus ended up closing and we're like, hey, it's probably better just for us to just be really together as a family, together as a church family and just have one location. And so in that time, I transitioned serving some other areas, doing online services while everything was kind of closed down and people weren't meeting in person. But then I just said, we gotta be all in with the union and eventually took that step.
Rob Chartrand (16:15.92)
I see a bookshelf behind you with some books on top. Did you do formal theological training or are you just an avid student?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (16:19.192)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (16:26.0)
you know what I've done some, like I've audited classes through our home church where we've been able to, able to take in like Bible, Bible classes. I am just really a natural, like just pretty passionate about theology, passionate about the word of God. And, it's funny cause like I, when I was in high school, like you could not get me to study anything. You know I mean? And it's just so crazy, that when the Lord really got a hold of my heart and brought this sense of purpose and meaning.
and calling to my life, like just how something in my heart just really was ignited. so, yeah, I do read a lot. have to, my wife could vouch that I probably get more books than I'm ever gonna read is my problem. But yeah, I am just really passionate about thinking clearly on these things and thinking from a gospel centered and biblical worldview here, so.
Rob Chartrand (17:20.136)
Yeah. So you and your wife, Bonnie, you're both involved in the ministry. So what would your roles look like? How are they different?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (17:27.172)
Well, my wife is also a homeschool mom. So she's quite busy homeschooling our kids and also carrying the weight of the ministry as well in different facets. We kind of have our lanes, some of them overlap and we just have been able to kind of find a little bit of a system that works best for us. But yeah, we're in this together though. It's just the larger portion of the time.
Rob Chartrand (17:31.294)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (17:54.449)
allotted to the union is in my schedule. But outside of homeschooling, she has days as well that are allotted to the work of the union and we make it work. We're just trying to be faithful, trying to find a way.
Rob Chartrand (18:09.81)
So are you guys your own charity or are you under like an umbrella of a church that's supporting you?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (18:14.775)
Yeah, right now we are missionaries under an organization called Commission to Every Nation Canada. And so they provide resources and overhead and admin and things like that to support missionaries and get people doing what God's called them to do. So that's been a great relationship for us. But our bigger vision is that we would be an organization, standalone kind of charitable organization in the future.
Rob Chartrand (18:20.22)
Okay, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:42.226)
Yeah, you have to get a board too.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (18:44.859)
Well, yeah, and we by nature, like we have an advisory board that's just more relational for us. know, like we have, like our pastors are great. Our home church is great. We have great community. You know, people who really care about us believe in what we're doing, but care about us as people, not just the ministry and not just, you know, speaking or somebody's gift or whatever. They really do care about us. So grateful for them. But we have an advisory board that we buy because it's a value of us that like we wouldn't just be.
you know, vigilantes or just kind of like just doing whatever we want. It's like we would, there's safety in council and there's safety in the multitude of council, not just your own council.
Rob Chartrand (19:17.31)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (19:21.074)
Well, especially in the particular area that you're working with, right? I mean, that's right. So it's good for you to model that. you've got six sons. How old are they?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (19:25.019)
Exactly.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (19:33.17)
We do have six sons, so we got the identical twins, 17, that's Samuel and Micah. Excuse me, so Samuel and Micah are 17. Haddon's 15, Charlie's 13, Caleb is 11, and Theodore is five going on 15. If anybody has a five-year-old or anybody in that age group, he's honestly, yeah, yeah. I have a joke, I don't know if I'm allowed to share the joke. Maybe we can cut this out if it's bad.
Rob Chartrand (19:49.919)
Okay. Wow. Yeah, crazy. on you. Quiver is full. You go for it, yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (20:02.801)
But we get a lot of questions, that's, and we get maybe not even questions. We get a lot of statements, even just with people's facial expression. We get a lot of statements when we tell them that we have six kids. But my joke is like, because I had somebody say to me like, oh my goodness, like how did that happen? And I said, I'm just like, dude, can't put a softball up onto a tee like that and not expect me to like just knock it out of the park.
Rob Chartrand (20:30.526)
you
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (20:32.197)
But I said, well, actually, what really happened is on our wedding day, somebody bought us a Barry White CD. And the next thing I know, I woke up and I had six kids. Maybe some of the listeners may not know who Barry White is, but.
Rob Chartrand (20:46.477)
I use the Barry White joke all the time. It's great. Yeah. That deep. I'm coming home. That's right. Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (20:49.361)
Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Can't get enough of your love. That's right. but, no, honestly, like the Lord really early on in our, in our marriage and even before we got married Bonnie and I had just like, the Lord has really put a deep burden, not a burden, but like just a sense of significance of family. And like, we always just kind of envisioned having a larger family.
you know, my wife gets asked a lot like, hey, did you ever want a girl? And it's like, she kind of always thought that she would be a mom of boys. It's very interesting. And so we were grateful to have the family that God's given us. And we know that children are a blessing no matter how many you have. The blessing is not in how many children you have. But we, God just opened up our heart and just saw that like there's so much significance in beauty and.
And I think in a lot of ways, what our world needs is to see what a healthy family looks like. And I think the church is supposed to be a whole lot like family. think, I think the blueprint for church was, was the family in the beginning. and, and that's what it's supposed to be like. And I think that's what people are longing for. And, know, like the Lord sets the lonely in families, you know, he, doesn't set them in organizations, doesn't set them in, you know, nonprofits. He doesn't set them in, you know, institutions. He sets them in families. And so,
The Lord's just really put a big burden on our heart for that.
Rob Chartrand (22:16.286)
Well, and before you know it, should the Lord will it, you might have six daughters, right?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (22:22.129)
Dude, just like that, like we're almost there. Like it could be a few more years here, man.
Rob Chartrand (22:24.424)
Right? I have two daughters and now I have, you know, they married well and suddenly I have two sons and now they've both given birth. And so now I have two grandsons. So suddenly I have four sons.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (22:30.362)
Wow.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (22:34.437)
Let's go, man. Come on. That's so cool.
Rob Chartrand (22:38.718)
All right, let's get into your organization a little bit and some of your values. You talk on your website, you've got this great summary of five keys for sexual health in a church culture. So I wonder if you could break that down for us. What are the five keys for sexual health in a church culture? And then maybe we'll talk about where those come from.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (22:50.405)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (22:59.855)
Yeah, for sure. Well, I think we came up with these five keys because it's important for churches to be strong on their orthodoxy. You know what mean? You want to know what you believe and you want to have right belief, first of all, and not just know what you believe, but like hopefully believing the right things. But then there's also the avenues of orthopraxy that you want to be living those things out rightly as they're intended. So we have orthodoxy and orthopraxy.
But a lot of times leaders can forget that for health and growth within the church communities that we're leading, a lot of this is culture. A lot of this is things that people experience. Like you may have your values on a board in the lobby. It's like, is who we are at blank church. This is our values. But your values are truly what people experience and sometimes what they experience without even really knowing it. It's just kind of what they're in.
And so we, we really were prayerfully considering, okay, well, what, are these things within a church? What are the dynamics within a church that cause that would cause the community to grow in a healthy approach to sexuality? What are the keys to, to healthy sexuality in the church? And so one of them being honor that, that this conversation and these topics and even, you know, the distinctives between men and women are always approached in the sense of honor. They're, you know, like,
It's never used in a way to like demean or to cut people down or, know, and we see this a lot, like in the conversation around emotions, right? It's just like men are always, yeah, women are so emotional and men are just so logical. It's like, bro, I've played golf with some guys that are pretty darn emotional. You know what I mean? Like, exactly. And it's, and here's what's crazy. I don't want to get super psychological, but it's like, but it's like anger as a secondary emotion.
Rob Chartrand (24:41.936)
Anger is an emotion, not just, you yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (24:52.726)
I think, I think there's a lot of strong opinion within the community on that, that it's, it's not a primary emotion. It's a secondary emotion, but a lot of time guys don't have that, freedom or that sense that they're able to be disappointed or be sad or be grieving something. So where does it go? It gets bottled up and goes to anger, but you didn't sign up for my Ted talk on emotions, but, but really it's just, it's just, you know, marriage, singleness, you know, relationships are always approached with a sense of honor.
Rob Chartrand (25:11.262)
you
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (25:21.542)
and they're talked about in that way, but it's also led in such a way that they would always be approached that way too. That like the methodology and how you pursue your relationships should be that of honor. How the type of atmosphere you have within your marriage should be that of honor as well. And obviously, yeah, sex and other areas, it's always rooted in the kingdom value of honor. Secondly, we have transparency.
And this is something that is really hard for leaders to hear, but leaders need to go first in this area. Unfortunately, we've seen it and it's only been, I don't know when this is exactly gonna air, but we've seen even recently in the last couple of months, a well-known Christian leader who admitted to being in an adulterous affair for a substantial amount of time. Yeah, if we're gonna name names, I just wasn't sure if we were naming names, but.
Rob Chartrand (26:11.526)
Yeah, Phil Yancey, right? Eight years. Yeah, yeah, no, mean, it's, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we understand it, but yeah, for sure.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (26:18.746)
Yeah. Yeah. But it's not just Phil, it's Ravi Zacharias, it's a lot of these other guys. There's a long list of Robert Morris, there's all these things. And it's tragic. Yeah. But nobody got, no, 100%, you're absolutely right. But nobody got there by accident, you know what I mean? And I think transparency is the thing that...
Rob Chartrand (26:24.634)
long. Yeah.
Brexie, you know, lots of them, yeah. And we are not immune.
Rob Chartrand (26:40.68)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (26:45.346)
If that's not there if it's not present within the life of a leader where people don't just know you By your gift and that and that's why I was really clear to mention that within our church community. It's a high It's really valuable to us that people don't just know us for what we do or you know our my preaching ability my teaching ability my gift or whatever You call it whether you think it's a gift or not but like that they know us for us, you know, they know us and
Rob Chartrand (27:11.614)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (27:13.298)
And I would say here, like this is important too, for leaders to know that there is a certain amount of discretion that you being in the position that you're in, you need to have, you know what I mean? You can't just open up your heart to anybody who maybe doesn't have the spiritual maturity to handle it. you know, like you're, you know, to a new visitor in your church, you're not going to be like, man, I was so tempted with the sin last week. You know what I mean? It's just like, you know what? I'm going to, they're going to be like, I'm gone.
Rob Chartrand (27:41.47)
TMI.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (27:42.173)
I'm going go to that other church down the road, but yeah, exactly. And, and it's not that, you know, everybody needs to know everything. This is something we try to say a lot is like, it's not that everybody needs to know everything, but somebody needs to know everything. You know what I mean? And, and we've, we've often let this beautiful gift of confession be robbed from us. And I go, what if leaders were not just confessing to it, to their failures, to these large
Rob Chartrand (27:56.339)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (28:10.914)
like failures when their ministry blows up and like everything is exposed. But what if we as as leaders were confessing sin when it's even in seed form long before it's even you know grown up to be this huge beast that's secretly living in the the the back rooms of our life. What if we were like you know just to sit down with a trusted brother or sister in the Lord and be like you know what like I know this isn't who I am but like man I just
Rob Chartrand (28:27.902)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (28:38.822)
I've just been really struggling with this and like, can you pray for me and can you ask me how I'm doing? And I think like when you have trusted leaders like that, that change or when leaders invite that type of trusted relationship in their life, that changes the dynamic of leadership and it changes the culture of your church. Because for example, even within the church, our church home that we're a part of,
We had our leaders share openly their testimony on a Sunday morning to these areas of speaking to the sexual brokenness of their past. And often we think as leaders like, man, if they know my weaknesses and my failures, like they're not going to trust me. It's actually the opposite that took place as far as our experience. And I understand there is discretion and there's a way you'd want to approach it. And again, that's why we led with honor. Honor needs to be in there and discretion.
Rob Chartrand (29:16.574)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (29:37.224)
But what it actually did is it encouraged so many people in our community and we saw it. People come out of the woodwork being like, you know what, like that's my story. You know, that's, that's what happened in my life. And you know what, I've actually been keeping this a secret and I want to walk into freedom. want to start this process of freedom. so transparency is an intentional investment in your church. because, know, we, we do a little bit of like, kind of consultation and coaching.
Rob Chartrand (29:45.884)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (30:06.225)
with churches as well on how to approach these topics. And one of the questions I'll ask pastors is like, when was the last time somebody on your staff confessed to you? Maybe not like an active area of sin, like were they acted upon something, but they were even being tempted. And some pastors will go like, man, I can't even think of a time. And the idea is like, they think they're going, we must be doing great. Everybody must be happy, holy and healthy, just loving Jesus, no brokenness and just fine. But the reality might be,
Rob Chartrand (30:31.783)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (30:36.343)
is that they're actually afraid to come into the light, even with a temptation, not just even a little bit of a desire gone astray, because it might cost them their job, or it might cost them influence, it might cost them a voice at the table. And they're going, I would much rather just not say anything and say I'm good and fine, rather than actually run that risk. I go, transparency in leadership just changes all that.
Rob Chartrand (30:47.612)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (31:03.752)
Well, and that value, transparency is difficult to uphold with another value that you have listed in your list, which is gospel centered.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (31:15.301)
Yeah, totally. And again, this isn't, and we're really strong on re we, we repeat that a lot saying that we're gospel centered because unfortunately the conversation around sexual ethics has kind of been hijacked by a lot of political jargon and a lot of political parties. and that, and politics tends to take ethics and things like this and turn them into behavioral modification and essentially get the cart before the horse.
Rob Chartrand (31:31.272)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (31:42.59)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (31:44.53)
Where that's just not the gospel language. Like we don't get our stuff figured out and then come to Jesus. It's like we come to Jesus with all of our brokenness and all of our sin problems, all of our shame, guilt. And he begins to heal and restore. But that starts from like, you can't live out a life as a Christian until you are positionally in Christ. You know what I mean? Like till you're in him. And so everything, everything flows from that place and how
If we have a gospel centered approach, that there's always hope of redemption, there's always hope of forgiveness, doesn't mean that your life is free from consequence, but there can be restoration, there can be beauty from ashes. And that's what Jesus brings us. And he loves to remove shame. Like if we have a gospel centered church community, that type of atmosphere, shame cannot live in, secrecy cannot live in.
Because it's just it's oil and water they just can't mix if we are constantly exposing people to the realities of the gospel It's gonna be so hard and the tension of the gospel in grace and truth not just not just the the things that we like but also the call to repentance the call to to to authenticity and vulnerability and confession and those things you can't you can't live with though you can't live live in shame and and Be exposed to the gospel that way
Rob Chartrand (33:06.332)
Yeah, I mean, where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. So how can grace abound without a knowledge of sin, right? They work together. Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (33:09.949)
Yeah, amen.
Absolutely. Yeah, totally. And also like we we have the avenues of legacy to that when you know, there's a lot of church models and church approaches that are really just trying to be geared to the young hip and cool kind of demographic and I go, man, I just think the kingdom of God is all people from all age groups, all demographics under one Lord, you know, and so
Rob Chartrand (33:21.17)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (33:42.217)
you know, to be building a church that's considering having a generational vision that grandmas and grandpas who have been serving the Lord for decades and who've been faithfully, you know, praying and seeking the Lord and just been faithful get to, you know, feel like, or not just feel like they're a part of it, but actually be a part of what God's doing and that a young generation can grow up seeing.
what healthy families look like and grow up seeing what healthy marriages look like. And that kind of generational torch of faith and health in these areas gets passed on generationally. And so that's another important key for sure for leaders to be considering. But.
Rob Chartrand (34:29.95)
And I think that's unique, Brian, like, I mean, that in the conversation about sexual integrity, I think we often overlook on it because we're, I think oftentimes it's so individualistic, right? And it's about me and my sin problem and Jesus helping me overcome my sin problem. But to understand that, you know, we are integrated humans and oftentimes like we don't just think our way into a new way of being, we live our way into a new way of being. that's,
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (34:42.334)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (34:45.885)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (34:56.744)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (34:57.274)
much easier if you're in a community of other people who are showing and modeling the way of Jesus.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (35:02.068)
Oh, totally, totally. And even to share a story on that part, like, there was a season of my life, this was a couple of years before Bonnie and I got married. Like, and again, like I said, like, I didn't I didn't come to Jesus. And all of a sudden, everything was gone. Every sin problem in my life was gone. Like, I'm still being sanctified. Let's just be honest. But but at that point in my life, like desire for alcohol was gone. Desire for drugs was gone. Like it wasn't something that was going on in my life. was
Rob Chartrand (35:20.03)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (35:30.536)
But this avenue of pornography was still wreaking havoc. wasn't going away as fast as I wanted it to. And I just remember this one Saturday night, I had done something I shouldn't have done. I'd gone further than I thought I would go, which is the nature of temptation and sin. Does it always take you further than you wanted to go and do more than you thought you would do?
And, I was just so filled with shame on that Sunday morning. was just thinking about like what I had done the night before. I'm, I'm sitting in church and I couldn't tell you even to this day, like what was preached that Sunday morning. Cause I was just like, so filled with shame and guilt and condemnation. I'm, I can be pretty hard on myself on the best of days. so, you know, like I, in that moment, I was just so angry with myself and I remember.
This one elder who later elder of our church who later became like a really good mentor and friend to me. His name is Mark Thomas. He passed away just a few years ago. He was a former Mr. Canada bought natural bodybuilder. And so he was a pretty big dude. You know what I mean? Like I, he wasn't very tall. So like him and I got along great because I'm not super tall either. But, he was just like a pretty
Rob Chartrand (36:35.4)
Wow.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (36:44.978)
big guy, stocky guy. And he was always super intense. You know what I mean? Like he's he's always quoting the Book of Revelation and was like, I'm always leaving a conversation with him feeling like, man, I might be the Antichrist. You know what I mean? a little extreme. But I'm just kidding. That's a bad joke. But he was always a super intense, like always quoting the 70 week prophecy. And, know, out of Daniel and and I just was like, you know what? I'm going to go tell him.
what I did last night and I know he's going to kick me out of the church because he's going to say you're an apostate you know you you know you're you're the people that are you know at our love feast that are telling you know like you you can't be here you immoral you know like all this kind of stuff that I thought he was going to say right so I go up and I tell him what happened and here's this real intimidating guy he puts his hand on my shoulder and I get emotional still when I share the story so just bear with me but
He puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, well, you know what, Brian? He loves you. So he didn't come with this crazy voice of condemnation. He came as a father, a spiritual dad, to be like, you know what? Jesus loves you still. And it doesn't mean what you did was OK. It doesn't mean.
You know what you what you did there's not there's not going to be consequences or there's not some hard work to do and and obviously repentance that needs to happen like but he led with the sense that like this affirmation of who I am in Christ and the love of God that I have in my life even in my brokenness and it's like it because he he thought generationally he thought like here's a young man. Here's legacy. Here's those things. So
Rob Chartrand (38:19.549)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (38:25.01)
Yeah, it's legacy.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (38:30.089)
I just share that just to send that point home all the more like this is how important it is.
Rob Chartrand (38:36.392)
Well, hey, let's talk about the fifth key, because I think we're missing one.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (38:38.716)
Yeah. Yeah, there is. We got to have five, not just four. But this is a holistic approach. I know sometimes the word holistic gets hijacked by some ideologies, but yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Everybody's going to get their witch hazel and their oil of oregano and their... Sorry, I'm offending every essential oil mom on the podcast here right now. So...
Rob Chartrand (38:41.233)
you
Rob Chartrand (38:50.706)
People with scented candles. Sorry.
Rob Chartrand (38:58.142)
That's right cures cancer
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (39:07.964)
you can send any complaints to Rob at, no, just kidding. Exactly. But yeah, we, as leaders, like to have a holistic approach to how we disciple people where we're not just, taking into consideration their gifts and talents and abilities and their, you know, their ability to perform, in and of the space that they're in right now. But you're also asking harder questions like, Hey, tell me about.
Rob Chartrand (39:11.196)
That's right. at church in the north dot ca.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (39:35.722)
You know, you can live, you can lead worship. You're incredible at leading worship. You got a voice, you got a sense for what God is doing. You can really help like lead the people well. Man, tell me what your family of origin was like. Tell me what it was like growing up. You know, like tell me, tell me some of your stories and you're not, you're not just taking into consideration your, someone's ability to have an outcome, but you're caring for the entirety of who they are. And you ask, you ask the hard questions. I don't.
Rob Chartrand (39:50.579)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (40:04.437)
I don't man, you might preach incredibly, but man, are you loving your wife? Man, are you caring for your kids? know, like, hey, how are things going online? Are you making great decisions there? How are you interacting with the opposite sex? You know what I mean? Like what kind of, how are you carrying yourself with your other brothers and sisters in the Lord? Like how are those relationships going? Because what's happened,
Rob Chartrand (40:12.509)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (40:29.429)
And I think we've we've separated somebody's ability to perform and operate in a gift from the entirety of who they are as a disciple and then what ends up happening is we not to jump on worship leaders I'm sorry worship leaders, but to see use an example we have worship leaders who are incredibly talented yet they're sleeping with their boyfriend and And there's this dichotomy or this this I don't know if that's the right word, but like the separation
Rob Chartrand (40:49.884)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (40:53.854)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (40:56.361)
from what I do on Sunday morning and my output from the entirety of the rest of my life. And I go, all of my life is worship to the Lord. And there's no hidden boxes where I get to just keep stuff. All of my life is supposed to be worship. And me just operating strongly in my gift doesn't kind of wash over those other areas of compromise and willful disobedience. So.
Rob Chartrand (41:21.573)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (41:21.853)
So holistic, a holistic approach is considering all those dynamics of, you know, somebody's, somebody's past. And again, this kind of plays in with transparency. It's like leaders, do you know the past of the people on your staff? Do you know what, what maybe brokenness they've dealt with and have you provided a healthy space for them to, be honest so that there's just no secrets? You know what I mean? It's not to shame. It's not to rehash old wounds and open old wounds, I guess, but.
just so there was no secrets. You know what I mean? That people can run into their destiny and purpose, not being locked up by a bunch of shame connected to the past or kind of compartmentalize living. You know, they're able just to be whole people, you know?
Rob Chartrand (42:02.504)
Right.
Well, I think that's the word that I was thinking of was you just said is compartmentalization. So we compartmentalize our lives, as opposed to integration, right? So integrated and percent of integrity is somebody where every aspect of their life is integrated, what you see is what you get. And that's where they are on the inside. So to get there as a culture, we need to have some openness and I think a willingness to pry up beneath the cover the
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (42:16.573)
Absolutely.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (42:24.693)
Yeah, that's right.
Rob Chartrand (42:33.81)
the carpet and get behind the veneer of our lives and just be real and really real. Again, that's not possible without a gospel centered culture.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (42:35.85)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (42:39.657)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (42:43.637)
For sure, for sure. And I would also just to add a little kind of caveat to that too, it's like...
You don't want to as a leader, you don't want to be suspicious because that's not great either. You know, you don't want to be the suspicious leader, but you have to assume a certain level of brokenness within the people that you're leading. You know what I mean? And it's and all that this holistic or legacy and transparency kind of talk is doing is like just speaking to those things in an honorable way with with a gospel focus. How are we speaking to those things? And because when we get suspicious, it's like
Rob Chartrand (42:55.485)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (43:11.091)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (43:19.763)
You know, nobody's ready. Nobody's got their stuff together. And, know, and, and we end up limiting people's growth and opportunities for growth. When if we can just have these conversations and be purposeful in our leadership this way, people will grow and transform organically because of the culture that they're in. and, and they get to run into their purpose and calling completely free, you know,
Rob Chartrand (43:35.07)
.
Rob Chartrand (43:42.472)
Yeah, yeah, I often say to my students, say nothing good grows in the dark. That's why you got to bring it into the light. Everything in the dark that grows there is usually pretty gross and disgusting. yeah, nothing grows there except millipedes and mushrooms. And they usually grow on top of pile of crap. expose it, bring it to light where there's growth and health. Well, hey, thanks for sharing those and for our ministry leaders checking.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (43:47.541)
That's right. Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (43:55.528)
No kidding.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (44:01.739)
That's right. That's right. Yeah, so true. Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Rob Chartrand (44:12.222)
checking in on this, go to the website. There's a great link for that on the union. And I think that's something to even just reflect on. Well, how could we integrate this into our own church? And you've got some great links there to your podcast that you talk about. So you're doing this thing called, in April, April 10th and 11th, called the Called Conference. And it's interesting when, like in your strapline, you use the term sexual discipleship.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (44:28.704)
Totally. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (44:40.35)
I found that an interesting phrase. actually said it to my wife, sexual deception, she says, that's a that's a great way of putting it. That's in your promotion. What is that? What's the conference all about?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (44:46.613)
Wow.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (44:51.858)
Yeah, well, yes. The reason we went with the term sexual discipleship is because often this is the as I heard somebody say a friend of mine said it this way that this sexuality is the missing pillar of discipleship within the church.
Rob Chartrand (45:07.326)
Mm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (45:08.15)
Right? So we're discipling, you know, everybody's learning the, you know, the Tabernacle of Moses in their midweek class, but, or they're learning Old Testament survey, New Testament survey. But how much are we hearing about sexuality? And, and cause like, if you even look in the New Testament, there's only two books that don't specifically and outright mention, um, sexuality or sexual ethics in some way. And that's Philemon and second Thessalonians, but it's sprinkled throughout the rest of, of the New Testament that there are sexual ethics there. There's Jesus speaking to,
You know, if you look at a woman with less in your heart, you've committed adultery with her. That's right there in the gospels. Paul speaks to it. Other apostolic writers speak to it. And so it's all there. But how much are we speaking to it? And so we really wanted to have that focus to really reintegrate the avenues of sexuality, human identity back into discipleship, that who we are in Christ and the types of decisions that we make as a Christian.
Rob Chartrand (45:59.475)
Mm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (46:04.104)
include the types of decisions we make with our sexuality and who we are, no matter what brokenness we might experience and even in the disintegration between body and soul and everything that like in Christ, we are who Christ says we are.
And so that's why we went with that term of sexual discipleship. but really the focus for this year's conference is it's a little bit new because the last two years we did, just the union conference and we'd have a specific theme, for each year, but this year we're actually teaming up with a good friend of ours, Kyla Gillespie. she leads renewed and transformed ministries. Yeah. Kyle is great. Yeah. Great friend. Huge fan of her. yeah. for sure. She'd be great.
Rob Chartrand (46:21.374)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (46:40.157)
yeah, she's great. Amazing.
I'd like to get her on the podcast. I've talked to her about it. So I'd love to get her on. Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (46:51.318)
But we like we we live so close to each other. She's like 40 minutes from us and We're both in the same lane kind of talking on the same things. It's like hey we could do this together And I think we could go further together And so this is where we we decided to land on the on the name the called conference And so in the years coming this will be the the continual name for it But really this year's focus is is all around Isaiah 61
You know Jesus refers to people who have encountered the reality of the liberty and freedom and being set free You know that the Messiah Jesus brings for them He describes them as oaks of righteousness and rebuilder and rebuilders of ancient ruins And so our real heart for this event this year is to be equipping leaders equipping the everyday person just to be To be an oak of righteousness that they would experience these realities for themselves and be transformed by the gospel in these areas and and transformed by
strong biblical perspective on sexuality and identity, but also be an avenue and a catalyst for the rebuilding of brokenness within their own lives and the lives of people around them, but also society and culture that we could see the restoration of our nation this way and wholeness and beauty restored. Like we were talking about before, the beauty that comes from ashes when it's really in the hands of the Lord. So that's really our focus this year.
Rob Chartrand (48:12.904)
Wow. So last couple years, what's the attendance been like? Is it is it a growing conference?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (48:17.655)
Yeah, last year, last year we were at three, 300, 350. And, and I can imagine, uh, yeah, we could, we could be upwards around 500, uh, this year. don't know. We'd, um, it's been difficult and I don't know, like you obviously are involved with, you know, running events and running conferences and you're always trying to measure like, um, you know, what's the impact and did we really equip people and you know, how many people are going to be now better equipped to run into, you know, their area of life and ministry maybe.
Rob Chartrand (48:40.348)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (48:48.238)
better equipped and not just do an event. And so like we've been looking at things like how do we really add value to this event and like really have that focus of equipping and not just, hey, like we're gonna have some great worship times and we're gonna encounter the presence of God together, but we really wanna leave that there's substance left in the hearts of people and they're better equipped and not just, oh man, that was powerful. I don't know what was said and I don't even know, but it was great. You know what I mean?
Rob Chartrand (48:59.038)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (49:16.904)
Yeah, yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (49:17.345)
There's enough events like that. We've been really trying to be focused on making sure that this is an equipping event for people.
Rob Chartrand (49:24.604)
Yeah, I mean, there's a there could be a stigma with a conference like this too, like that word sexual discipleship, right? So, so talk to us about that. Who is this conference for? Like, is it for people who are struggling with a sexual addiction? Right? Or is it or is it or is a broader group than that?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (49:29.953)
Sure.
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (49:42.294)
Yeah, I think this is for anybody who either for themselves is looking for the freedom that Jesus brings and the beauty to be restored to the areas of sexuality or it's somebody who is just wanting to be a voice in this area and carry this, be better equipped with the good news on these topics to carry to their friends, carry to their circle of ministry, their circle of influence, wherever they're at.
This is open to anybody 18 and up But also like if anybody 18 and under wants to come they just need to have also have a parent or guardian with them But it's it's really for anybody who's really They're really serious about this. They're seeing the need for it. Maybe in their own life That may be a reality, but it's just people who who are ready to ready to be all in on these topics and and and really be a catalyst for culture
Rob Chartrand (50:30.974)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (50:35.836)
Wow, so it's PG things are gonna get real.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (50:38.775)
things are gonna get real. But again, I think you can talk about awkward subjects and talk about difficult subjects in a not so awkward way. And that's just a real high value for us. There's been enough, and maybe we'll get to the conversation, but the effect of purity culture and everything in years past, there's been enough shame and used as a motivation for holiness that we don't need to revisit that.
Rob Chartrand (50:50.206)
Totally.
Rob Chartrand (51:04.808)
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (51:06.359)
And first of all, it's not really sustainable anyways, but we just try to approach this with compassion, we get conviction, grace and truth, high values for us for sure.
Rob Chartrand (51:16.446)
So this isn't one of those conferences where you're gonna dim the lights so people can't see other people and you have to kind of sneak in the back door because you you want to be completely anonymous.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (51:26.781)
No, no, my hope is that people would feel loved and would feel seen and cared for. And obviously we're going to have, if you want to say ambiance or atmosphere and you know, like we'll have lighting and different things like that, but it's not, we're not, we're not trying to encourage secrecy or shame. We're trying to rid it of people's lives. So yeah.
Rob Chartrand (51:40.776)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (51:45.118)
Yeah.
Yeah, amen. Amen. And no Barry White playing in the background.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (51:51.914)
Yeah, we'll probably leave the berry CD at home. Who even has a CD player anymore anyways? I don't even know where I could play that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (51:57.007)
I know he's available on Spotify. Okay, well, let's talk about purity culture because I think some of our listeners when they see the header of this on the podcast that we're talking about sex in the church and whatnot, they might go back to some current concerns we've had with the way that we've handled sex maybe in the past couple of decades and the concern with this whole purity culture movement. So do you ever hear those kinds of concerns?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (52:23.402)
Yeah, there's there's residual. I think residual apprehension that people have whenever they hear, like a term like purity in general, even though that's like, that's like a great, you know, biblical word, like, exactly. You know, and like, who may ascend the hill of the Lord, him who has clean hands and a pure heart, you know, like, so it's, it's not a word that, you know, the Bible skews or tries to sidestep, like it's, but I think
Rob Chartrand (52:32.616)
Okay.
Bible word, yeah, blessed are the pure in heart. Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (52:51.372)
I think what we've seen, and I've often explained it this way, is to really understand purity culture, you need to see that it may have had a great intention in that it was trying to restore a sense of sanctity towards relationships, sexual ethics, sexual integrity, how you carry yourself, the types of decisions that you make, but it used the wrong method, right? And even as I saying, if you try to use shame and guilt and condemnation and even obligation,
You might get behavioral change for a moment or for a very short season but you're not gonna set people up for a lifetime of faithfulness and holiness in their life. And I think that's just what's happened is there's been a huge movement through the 90s and into early 2000s where maybe it was approached the wrong way and it wasn't approached in a gospel centered way. I would never.
I would never vouch for anyone ever saying, speaking of people who have maybe crossed boundaries, like got cross boundaries within God's word around sexuality or people who young people who have made a mistake and, you know, given into sexual temptation in some way and sinned that way. I would never refer to them as pure as pre chewed gum. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you're damaged goods. Like you, I can't believe you had sex before marriage.
Rob Chartrand (54:11.364)
Right. Or damaged goods.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (54:17.878)
You're pre chewed gum. Nobody's going to who wants to chew pre chewed gum. It's like, that's just like not that's just not the gospel. It's like, yeah, we can we can talk about these things in a way that's serious and it's weighty and sober. But we believe in redemption. We believe in the forgiveness and the reconciliation that Christ brings to these areas. and yes, in like sexual sin specifically is a is a unique sin in the sense that it's a sin where you sin against your own body.
You know, you don't see that really anywhere else in scripture. And so it is going to show up. Shame is going to have its effect within the soul of people when they cross boundaries this way. And so we need to speak to these things in a way that that if if it's not being highlighted that this is sin in their life, that is very clear that this is sin in their life. But when it's seen that way and there's humility and and a brokenness of heart, we're not we're not shaming people all the more. We're pointing them to, hey,
There can be a new page in your story. This doesn't have to be a defining moment. You don't have to wear the scarlet letter. You don't have to sit in the back of the church. know what I mean? Jesus loves to take broken people and redeem and bring them to the proverbial front row as a trophy of grace. know what I mean? But I think...
Rob Chartrand (55:37.415)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that, you know, I think the reaction against the purity culture, though, has been, well, we should never talk about sex or all sex, all sins are created equal. Right. And so why are we not talking about gossip as much as we're talking about sex? But I think you said it earlier, because the Bible talks about it everywhere like it is. And it is a sin against your own body. And so but, know, we don't want to maximize
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (55:46.38)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (55:54.114)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (55:58.808)
totally.
Rob Chartrand (56:06.962)
We don't want to minimize sin, right? And especially something that's so prevalent and that goes to the heart of what it means to be human, right? I mean, it's foundational. But on the other hand, we don't want to maximize sin, right? And that's the danger is we become this Phariseeical community and there is no redemption and there is no reconciliation. mean, Christ covers all sins, right? All sins are forgivable. So there's like the two ditches.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (56:09.122)
course.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (56:19.394)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (56:30.006)
Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Chartrand (56:34.482)
that Tim Keller talks about, right? On the one hand, there's like antinomianism where there's this absolute freedom. And then on the other hand, there's legalism and the gospel is right in the middle of pulling us out of both of those ditches. But I think with the sexual purity movement, we've kind of ended up in a ditch on, but the reaction can bring us into another ditch.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (56:36.341)
Mm-hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (56:41.005)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (56:50.754)
for sure.
exactly. that's and man, that's just the the human condition, you know, especially with within Christianity is the overreaction, the reactionary theology. So, you know, because, you know, sexuality has been approached in an improper way or a dishonorable way. And that's really hurt somebody. Then we should never talk about it again. Or how about we just talk about it rightly? You know what I mean? Like, how about we just how about we just talk about it the way the scriptures talk about it?
Rob Chartrand (57:18.258)
Right.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (57:23.076)
you know, and, that's just, that's just so important because, and I think another contribute contributor to this kind of, pushback towards any sort of sense of like, you know, Ethics or integrity or like a call to, like a boundary, you know what I mean? Is this this really this worship of self that we just see so clearly within culture and it, it, unfortunately it's affecting people. It's affecting everybody.
Right? So like, well, who is anybody to, you know, tell me what to do? And, know, I'm an, I'm an autonomous being and, you know, nobody should tell me what to do and what pastor, you know, you know, it's what two consenting adults do and the privacy of their own bedroom is, you know, nobody's business, you know, it doesn't, and, that's the ideas of culture that are fortunately sleeping into the church where the scripture is very clear that these are instructions.
Rob Chartrand (58:07.848)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (58:17.125)
on how to live in a way that is pleasing to the Lord. So that's a value of you, that you want to please the Lord with your life. I think you'd be pretty hungry to hear some instruction and some criticism, maybe some critique of your life so that you could enjoy the life that God's always intended you to have. But if you think that God is a cosmic killjoy and he's just putting boundaries around sexuality to ruin your fun,
Well, then you're going to go like, well, I'm not, I don't want to do that. I don't know who are you to speak to these things. I'm going to go and do what I want to do. But when you see that God actually puts a boundary around these areas, not to ruin your fun, but because he actually knows the potency of sexuality when it's taken out of the context it's supposed to be in. He actually knows the damage it can do, but he's always intended it to be a blessing in your life. just requires the safety, security, permanence and commitment of marriage. It's like,
as a friend of mine, uses this analogy, it's the fire in the fireplace. You know what I mean? Like sex in, in covenant in marriage, one man, one woman for one lifetime is beautiful. And it's a gift and anybody who's, who's married and maybe it's, it's obviously there's, there's struggles that people have within their sexual relationships. I'm not trying to say like the moment you get married and you start having sex, it's like, there's no problems anymore. okay, exactly.
Rob Chartrand (59:38.684)
Cures everything.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (59:40.782)
That's not the case, but if we're going to talk about it, like this is the way it's intended to be. This is the best way God's always intended it to be experienced. This is the right way it's meant to be experienced. But you need to take the fire out of the fireplace. We burn down houses, lives, destinies, and we destroy our own soul, you know? And so this is why it is just, again, so important to understand the heart of God around the command, that he's not keeping something from us.
Rob Chartrand (59:45.395)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (59:57.095)
Yeah, totally.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:00:08.695)
He's really keeping something for us.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:11.038)
Well, just really quickly, you have a podcast, who's it for? How often does it come up?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:00:20.269)
We do. Yeah. I appreciate you asking. So our podcast, we just made the jump to doing video podcasting. So we went from releasing every two weeks to just releasing once a month because video podcasting requires a little bit more. And we're just kind of trying to grow into that. But really it is just for, like we speak to a pretty wide audience, to be honest. This is for the everyday follower of Jesus. Who's just like, how do I approach relationships? Well, how do I, how do I find freedom?
Rob Chartrand (01:00:34.046)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:00:48.665)
In the areas of sexuality this could be for a mom or a dad a parent Yeah guardian, you know, like we get a lot of people who are grandparents reaching out to us Just trying to understand the craziness of the culture that we're living in right now And you know, they have grandkids who are dealing with so much sexual brokenness and a confusion of identity They're trying to understand this better But it's for church leaders too because like we're not trying to be, you know, kind of like a sidebar
You know, like I know like the term para church ministry. I understand that just means to come alongside, but we see ourselves as local church people. want to help leaders and pastors this way. So it's kind of a broad scope in that way, but we were trying to trying to hit all those dots, trying to check all those boxes. So.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:25.853)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:35.58)
Yeah. Your wife, Bonnie also wrote a book called Awkward. Yeah. Give us a quick pitch on that. What is that about?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:01:39.053)
She did. Yeah, we are.
Well, I think any parent would tell you and it will and anybody who's had parents, which is all of us and any parents who tried to Have that conversation around sexuality. It maybe hasn't always been a great experience and it's been awkward And that's really where the title comes from But we're trying to really help parents have these conversations in a way that is less awkward That is, you know gospel centered and rooted in the scriptures yet is understanding that this that these
that sexuality and the conversations around it is not just a one conversation that you have. It's a lifetime of relationship and a series of conversations that parents can have on all sorts of topics around what it means to be human, around avenues of the heart, that this sexuality isn't just a physical act to meet a physical or biological need. It is an action that affects you and the entirety of your being and your body, soul and spirit.
And so understanding the integration of soul and everything, Bonnie did such a great job. Like with that book, it's theologically strong, but it's also really practical. There's a lot of stories obviously within there. You have six boys, you hear a lot of questions, and she's done a great job really encapsulating that.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:59.666)
Yeah, amazing. What will I mean, when we put up your website, I mean, all the resources are there. So we don't need to really dissect them. But that information about that certainly on the website, it's available on Amazon, I'm guessing. Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:03:05.348)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:03:11.226)
Yeah, absolutely. If you go to our website, the union movement dot com, you'll see there will be the free resources. So what we were talking about with the five keys, you'll find that there's a free a free downloadable PDF that has the five keys, has some questions for church leaders on how to how to approach this topic with their staff or for leaders to approach us with general congregation and with families as well as some great conversation starters there. But also you'll get to see the five keys and a little bit deeper.
Rob Chartrand (01:03:17.918)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:03:38.843)
a little bit deeper format, but I was also gonna say too, we have three video courses on our website. We're really excited. Bonnie's video course for Awkward is on there as well. And that's available absolutely for free. We actually crowdfund for all of our resources, all the digital resources to be given away for free, because we just don't want money to be a hindrance to this work, but we just ask if people believe in what we're doing, that they would.
Rob Chartrand (01:03:46.27)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:03:53.042)
Okay.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:04:07.33)
know, about partnering with us financially, but you can find awkward on there. So that's for parents and having those conversations with their kids. We did a partnership project with Focus on the Family called In God's Image. And that's for kind of the young adult and up, just looking at 30,000 feet on what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, marriage, walking out of shame, freedom from temptation.
Some great great series there were so grateful for focus there and lastly is the youth leader course is a five session course that I did Really trying to equip youth leaders on how do they handle some of these? These topics like they are on the front line of a lot of ideology around gender and sex and all these things And so how do we approach that with a strong biblical worldview, but also a redemptive and approachable heart?
Rob Chartrand (01:04:58.706)
Well, we're excited to get you in on leadership essentials. You're gonna be teaching a spot for us, season two. so great, a of a collab work there and you get to talk about your area of expertise. that's amazing. Hey, what advice would you give to ministry leaders? Real quick, mean, there's so much we could say, but a couple of key points, who are struggling with sexual purity right now?
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:05:04.258)
Yeah, I'm so excited, man. I'm really looking forward to that.
Yeah, come on.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:05:20.889)
Yeah.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:05:24.506)
I would say in this way, just break the sound barrier, know, like prayerfully seek the Lord on how and reach out to us. Like if you're looking for ideas and how do I approach this within general congregation or with families or whatever, we love to work with local church leaders this way, but you got to break the sound barrier because the silence is deafening within this topic. And even sometimes when it's approached, it's not approached well.
Rob Chartrand (01:05:28.509)
Hmm.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:05:51.164)
And so it's not helpful, but if we aren't speaking to these things as the church and as church leaders, there's a world system that has no problem blasting the sound super loud on their version of what it means to be human and their version of what sexuality is all about. So I just encourage leaders with a broken heart, but with conviction, break the sound barrier.
Rob Chartrand (01:06:15.482)
Okay, amazing. Well, this has been so great, Brian, I wonder if we could finish with you just sharing a word of encouragement for our listeners who are tuning in today.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:06:25.945)
Yeah, I would just encourage anybody listening, you know, you might be a leader and you're dealing with maybe a secret area of brokenness. I encourage you, man, today is a day to get into the light. You know what mean? Take that step forward because your destiny and purpose and what God has for you is not worth giving up because of secret sin or brokenness. And I encourage leaders, man, like even as we talked about those five keys, like prayerfully consider how you can really implement those into your church culture.
Man and don't do not be afraid just to anybody listening. Do not be afraid To to share the good news of what god has done in your life In this area if this has been a story of god's redemption in your life through from sexual brokenness Man, we people need to hear that they're longing I think I think the world as loud as it is and as we see a lot of protests and there's a lot of yelling and signs I think when you boil it down, we have individual broken people
who are looking for the way out of the brokenness and shame. And so I encourage you to occupy that space when you get the opportunity. Do not be afraid to share the good news that Jesus brings to these areas that often are connected to so much shame.
Rob Chartrand (01:07:37.542)
Amen. Amen. Good word. Ryan Pugh, thank you for joining us on Church in the North.
Bryan Pue- The Union Movement (01:07:44.411)
Dude, it's been an honor. Thank you so much for having me.