The best stories resonate with us because just like good humor, we're like, man, that is so true.
Rob Chartrand:Welcome to Church in the North, a podcast by ministry leaders and for ministry leaders. I'm your host, Rob Chartrand, and I'm joined by my cohost, Geoff Dresser. Good morning, Geoff. Hey, Rob. And our other cohost, our token resident NextGen expert, Drinnan.
Rob Chartrand:Welcome, Chris. Hello, everybody. And thanks everyone for joining our in studio conversation today, which means we won't be having an additional interview at the end. But, before we dive in, I wanna remind our listeners, hey. If you like what you hear on our podcast, please share your comments or hit that subscribe button for more great content from North Of The 49th Parallel.
Rob Chartrand:Also, we welcome suggestions or questions, and you can email those to us at Chris. What is it? Bodcast@Briarcrest.ca. Awesome. Thanks for spelling it out for everybody.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Podcast. Yeah. Briarcrest dot c a. So happy New Year, gentlemen.
Rob Chartrand:Good to have you back in the studio. Yeah. Happy New Year. It's been so long. And, Chris, you were away from our last conversation too because you were doing something else.
Chris Drinnan:Did you guys ran without me?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. We ran without you.
Chris Drinnan:Oh,
Rob Chartrand:man. Obviously, you're not listening. You're not keeping up on me.
Chris Drinnan:I I thought it was just I thought if I didn't show, it was a no it was a no go. So I
Rob Chartrand:you know? Crazy. No. We we we will find someone to try and fit in if if we can because, you know, we know our our our listeners are waiting with anticipation every two weeks for the next episode to drop, and we do not wanna disappoint, except we will disappoint over Christmas holidays and summer vacation. But, otherwise, yeah, we're we're we're keeping it scheduled.
Rob Chartrand:It regular.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Like a person with too much fiber. Oh, too much for the air. Hey. Hey. So happy New Year, and, today's topic is books, reading, study.
Rob Chartrand:And, so I wanna have an in studio conversation. You guys know, like like, there are lots of pastors or leaders this time of year. They on their socials, kinda drop. These are the books I've been reading and recommends and all that sort of thing. I thought, why not us?
Rob Chartrand:Why not us? Why should we not have an opportunity to talk about some of the books that we're reading and, share those with with our listeners? So, I've asked each of you to bring two to three books that you read in 2025, and I was very specific. I said it could be something that you found interesting, inspiring, disturbing, or helpful. So, I thought we'd take a turn each, go around the circle, and and describe one book and talk about it and to and then we can do some follow-up questions, and we'll just roll with it.
Rob Chartrand:Sound like a plan?
Geoff Dresser:Sounds good.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. That sounds awesome. Oh, go good, Geoff. Since you're jumping in there, I'm gonna save my voice and, let you start. Give us a book.
Rob Chartrand:What do you what have you been reading?
Geoff Dresser:Well, first I just wanna start off by saying that I am pro reading. I I'm, I I I love reading and that wasn't always the case that I I love to read. But during my my grad studies when reading was forced upon me, I thought I developed that habit and then when I when I finished school and could choose what to read, it just became a, you know, just one of the things that is I constantly have have a couple books on the go and and just love to read. So it was I I had to like when you gave us the assignment to pick a few books, it was it was hard for me to to narrow it down to what I wanted to what what I wanted to talk about, but, but I've got a couple here. Should I should I dive in?
Rob Chartrand:Just give me one. Okay. Give me one.
Geoff Dresser:So, I I'm at age now where I can read books with the word history in the title and it's all stuff that happened during my lifetime.
Rob Chartrand:You're so old.
Geoff Dresser:So, I read a book called God gave Rock and Roll to you a history of contemporary Christian music by Leah Payne. And that was this was I really enjoyed this because I mean a lot of it was just a nostalgia trip for me to go back over the, the history of Christian contemporary music and thinking like, oh man, I remember that song or I remember that that band and it was I have a qualified recommendation for it. The author is like a sociologist type and I don't think she actually likes Christian contemporary music. Okay. And she also like she keeps trying to trying to tie Christian contemporary music to to like right wing american politics, which I find the okay, okay, you're against trump, we get it now.
Geoff Dresser:Can we just move on and talk about the actual subject of the book? But but there's still lots of lots of interesting things and just really fun for me. A guy who born in 1970, like grew up in the eighties, sort of the heyday.
Rob Chartrand:The best decade for music. Might add.
Geoff Dresser:We can talk about that. The key insight I got from the book though was in understanding how Christian contemporary music was marketed. Remember that remember the Christian bookstore? Remember when that was sort of the hub of activity in a city where Wow Records. So stickers.
Geoff Dresser:So contemporary Christian music was sold at Christian bookstores. The main customers, the main demographic were was suburban white moms, suburban white Christian moms shopped at the Christian bookstore. And so Christian contemporary music was the concern of that cohort was was what are my kids listening to? I need to find something cool for my kids to listen to so they don't listen to Prince Right. ACDC.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. So the marketing for Christian contemporary music was was their target was what white suburban Christian moms think their teenagers will like.
Rob Chartrand:Right.
Geoff Dresser:And so that weird bank shot explains a whole lot of the extremely goofy things that the that the sort of the Christian music industrial complex sort of put out during that that period.
Rob Chartrand:And it was like, if you like, if your kid is listening to this, you know, Run DMC, then they might like this.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. DC talk. Was there would be charts, like, at the Christian bookstore saying that if your, you know, if your child is listening to Motley Crue, try Stryper as the So does that explain where Chris Schacht
Chris Drinnan:came from then? Remember this Christian Schaw band?
Rob Chartrand:Hocus Picks maneuver. Remember Hocus?
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Horns and Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:The the yeah. The the Schaw thing is a, yeah. She gets into into the Schaw band.
Chris Drinnan:That is
Geoff Dresser:a that is a strange a strange Fascinating.
Rob Chartrand:Fascinating. Okay. Awesome. So that's a recommend.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I I I do that. Need to read that. I mean, another another book If don't
Rob Chartrand:like history, you'll like this history.
Geoff Dresser:A companion book would be, a history of contemporary praise and worship by Lester Ruth and, I can't remember the name of the, of the other author Mhmm. Which is, I mean, I read that. I mean, told us what books have you read last year. I I read, that book a couple of years ago, but that book was really, interesting in it traces back the roots of the praise and worship movement to where do you think the praise and worship movement began. Most people think it started with in California with the Jesus people in the seventies.
Geoff Dresser:But according to Lester Ruth, a biblical worship historian at Duke University, he traces the roots back to North Battleford, Saskatchewan.
Chris Drinnan:Come on.
Geoff Dresser:Believe it or not. Oh, yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. He said, so there are two sort two streams.
Geoff Dresser:There was the The
Rob Chartrand:sort of the Terra twins?
Geoff Dresser:No. The Pentecostal Latter Rain movement, which started in like late forties, early fifties, that where extended continuous worship sets became a thing. And the idea was like Psalm 22, God, you are enthroned on the praises of your people. The central concern there was to experience God's presence. So how do we experience God's presence?
Geoff Dresser:We create this throne of praise, and then God will will show up. And so it was in that movement where we we sort of got these these long extended, worship sets and the worship leader as we understand what a worship leader is today. That concept was formed there where there was sort of a chief pastoral musician who had a new, set of skills where they could direct a band and create these long extended continuous worship sets. Now, the contemporary worship movement started later sixties and seventies, and the concern there was more an evangelical concern where you know, evangelical parents were thinking we're losing our youth. So we need to be hip for the kids, you know, so let's get some guitars and drums in here.
Geoff Dresser:So the contemporary the major concern there was being relevant to to the youth. So he calls that the contemporary worship music. Now those sort of have come together Right. To what he's calling the contemporary praise and worship movement. But that and you can see like I I've seen in churches where I've led where there are people who come in with the mindset that worship are.
Geoff Dresser:What are we trying to do? We are trying to experience God's presence like that's their central concern. And there are other people in Internet. We are trying to reach to speak the language of our culture and reach our culture. And so there can be some there can be some friction there.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. But anyway, and I mean if you pair that with watching Jesus revolution, which like you'll see, like, I remember when Jesus revolution movie came out, I was like three, four years ago, and my wife said, hey, let's go see the new Christian movie. And, so I was like, yeah, those are usually really good. Let's go see that. But I was I was blown away and and so many and I had recently read that history of contemporary praise and worship.
Geoff Dresser:And I kept like pointing at the screen and like, that that really happened. That was in the book. And I it was and I mean, I think the movie is is great. Maybe the best sort of recent Christian movie that that I've seen. And, and it traces sort of the that Jesus people, contemporary worship Right.
Geoff Dresser:Movement.
Rob Chartrand:Mhmm. So anyway. Awesome. Well, thanks for that. Chris, about you?
Rob Chartrand:You got something?
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Well, I'm gonna head in
Rob Chartrand:a totally different Change gears better.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. That's sure. But I I'm gonna
Geoff Dresser:keep changing gears.
Chris Drinnan:So it's Jeff's book probably isn't a book that I would probably pick up and read, but I love how passionate he is about it,
Rob Chartrand:and it's very insightful.
Chris Drinnan:Like, I'm it's, like, neat. It's awesome. Great hearing.
Geoff Dresser:Thanks, Jeff.
Chris Drinnan:Heading in a totally different direction with a heroic fantasy
Rob Chartrand:Alright.
Chris Drinnan:Novel. I don't know if you've heard of the author Patrick Rothfuss.
Rob Chartrand:Oh, you bet I have.
Chris Drinnan:You have, aye?
Rob Chartrand:You've read So good.
Chris Drinnan:Oh, awesome. I got there's another Rothfuss fan right on. Yeah. So anyways, the the name of the wind is the book that I'd I'd read actually a couple times in the past, year. It's his first novel, and it follows, a figure who's sort of telling a story.
Chris Drinnan:Now the thing I like about this author, is that it it's rare that you would read a book a second time and enjoy it more except for nostalgia's sake. Right? If you've read a book and you loved it and you're reading it again, you're loving it. Patrick's stuff is, like, really layered. And so I I honestly was making connections the second time through that I totally missed the first time through.
Chris Drinnan:And after reading it a second time, I'm literally geared up to read it the third time. Like, it's a phenomenal book in terms of, kinda being, layered. He kinda writes almost in a way where it's like a you see how the puzzle fits together, but then each time you read it, you understand more the intricacies of how it's actually fitting together. So it's really fascinating that way. Very layered.
Chris Drinnan:It kinda has the main character telling his story and looking back. And so you're sort of sorting through these gaps in the story where what is actually, like, legend kind of about his reputation and what is actually the reality. So you're sort of having to sort through and read between the lines a little bit, which I kinda appreciated. Jeff might appreciate this. I don't know if this is a if if you're into heroic fantasy at all, but the the writer writes with a really unique sort of prose where it it's almost sort of musical.
Chris Drinnan:Like, you you almost sort of hear it as you read. Like, I don't know. It's kinda interesting that way.
Rob Chartrand:It's Yeah. There's a cadence to
Geoff Dresser:it. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:There's a
Chris Drinnan:rhythm to it that's sort of like, I don't know. I found that really gripping. Like it like, the first book is his first novel is, like, over 600 pages. Did not feel that way. His second one, I think, tacked on another 300 pages.
Chris Drinnan:So it's, like, over nine. Again, just went through that one. Just finished it last week and was like, man, it doesn't feel like a next a thousand page novel. The other thing I found really neat about this is the way that it opens up your imagination. And Patrick Rothfuss's approach to magic, he calls it sympathy, and it almost has, like, a scientific explanation.
Chris Drinnan:So it's not like I mean, when you hear about magic in in in books, you just think, like, okay. It's like nobody knows how it happens. It's some power that they're diving into. And he he explains how it kinda works in a way of making connections and bindings and and a power like, it's it's really quite fascinating. So I I thought that was neat.
Chris Drinnan:In short, I love it because words matter. Name there's a big part about naming, knowing the true names of things and and how you can Power
Rob Chartrand:in the names.
Chris Drinnan:Yep. Yep. Yep. And then and story shape identity, which I think is why this book really resonates with me as a Christian is that it's very much about how stories shape us. And, of course, as people of the story, the way of Jesus, yeah, it shaped us.
Chris Drinnan:So I I found it a fascinating read.
Rob Chartrand:Love it. How did you hear about it?
Chris Drinnan:That is a fantastic I feel like I don't I don't know if it was a book recommendation or if I discovered it online, but it's I don't feel like a person recommended it. I think I it's something I stumbled onto online. I took a chance on it. And then I started finding out I would start mentioning it sort of, and also, I'd find out other like, tons of other people that have read his stuff. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. The reason it's a little bit contentious is, like, the world's been waiting for, like, I don't know, fifteen years for the third book. And, yeah, some people are pretty passionately upset about how long it's taking, and I just go, you know what? I could probably stand to read these books three or four more times before the third one comes out. So, Patrick, if you're listening to this podcast, take your time.
Chris Drinnan:Mean, deliver on the book.
Rob Chartrand:Get her
Chris Drinnan:done, buddy.
Geoff Dresser:Get her done. No rush. Like, just
Chris Drinnan:yeah. Anyways.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. You know you know, we heard about it, I don't know, about it a decade ago. Karen was on the bus reading, I think, Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series.
Chris Drinnan:Okay.
Rob Chartrand:And a girl was on the bus, like, behind her and and said, oh, you like that? If you like that, you'd like this. And that's how we heard about it. It was like a recommendation. And I think the book has been recommended to me probably half a dozen times since then.
Rob Chartrand:And I'm like, oh, no. I've read it. Yeah. Yeah. Third book.
Rob Chartrand:And then and then you get into discussion with people who read it, there's this angst. Where is the third book? Totally. But he's having difficulty writing it, I think.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Because it
Rob Chartrand:it kinda came together. I think he's more of a a plotter than a plotter. So, he just kinda works his way through the book, and then but there's no real big map, and now he has to to finally write the third book that there needs to be a map, and so he has to kind of piece together all this stuff that he's
Chris Drinnan:created. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:That's my theory anyway. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Thanks, Chris. I'll recommend one book that I picked up this year.
Rob Chartrand:It's, Jennifer Aker and Naomi, Begdonis, and their book is Humor Seriously. Why Humor Is a Secret Weapon in Business and in Life. And they are they are like, Jennifer Aker, if you know her, she's from Stanford. She's written a number of of books in the past, but, that have been, like, New York Times bestsellers. But, I found this fascinating because I I I I've been questioning and curious about the role that humor plays in homiletics and the role that comedy can play and what where's too far?
Rob Chartrand:Where's too short? Like, how much time should we spend on on on being funny or being witty, and does that add to or take away? But, also, in, in terms of in general leadership, like, what role does humor play? Fascinating discovery. I mean, they say that, organizations that that are healthy and that thrive have a a high degree of levity in their organization.
Rob Chartrand:So you don't take yourself seriously. You're able to joke with each other. You know? But it's not it's not bad joking, and she talks about the the, you know, the bad use and the good use, when is it appropriate, when is it inappropriate, but, the value of of humor. And and and they go into, you know, a little bit of the history of it, of humor and comedy, but they also talk about, the structure of comedy and how that works and what doesn't work.
Rob Chartrand:So, recommend it. Highly recommend it. Not just for those who are preachers or teachers, but also for those who are leaders. I think it's a great leadership book on on on humor. And and I think the the the one takeaway rule is that, they talk about, for example, proximity to an event.
Rob Chartrand:So if you're too close to an you know, we we use the term too soon. Right? Yeah. So you have to take in the consideration proximity to an event. But the other thing you have to take into consideration when using humor is power and especially in a in a person of leadership is you don't have the luxury of using humor in the same way that
Chris Drinnan:people Interesting.
Rob Chartrand:Were on par with you because it's punching down. Right? So you have to be careful about punching down. So anyway, they they go into a good diagnosis of that and just find some, yeah, some great sage advice on on humor. So
Chris Drinnan:K. Will I be funnier if I read that book?
Rob Chartrand:Well, and that's
Chris Drinnan:have a better shot at being humorous.
Rob Chartrand:Well, what that they do talk about that is some people will say, I'm not funny, and they would say, well, you can learn to be funny. I mean, there are some people who are just gonna be naturally much more funny Yeah. Especially people from a broken background. Because because really? Well, I mean, if for for many, like, I I'll say this is my story, is is that it's a coping mechanism.
Rob Chartrand:It's a way of dealing with the difficulty and the challenges of life is is through humor, and you you wear things lightly. Right? So if you're from a very, yeah, a very staunch stoic, well put together family, that's always you know, it's but but then again, humor is gonna be different. It might be a little bit more yeah. Anyway, so It's humor is a really
Chris Drinnan:neat thing because you can be, like, naturally funny. Like, those guys that enter the room and it's just, like, they they've just got, like, this natural humor about them. But some of, like, some of the best comics out, like, very thoughtful. Like, the guys that put in the time and think about it, man, and the timing, like, you you can sharpen the humor, like, you know
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. And and humor comics can read prophets. They're prophetic in some ways.
Geoff Dresser:They've many comics have really returned to the the court jester, role of of old where they're the only ones who can actually say the truth. Oh, the truth and get away with it.
Chris Drinnan:And this is your prophetic. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Oh, the role of the jester. They
Geoff Dresser:will, they will say out loud what everyone is thinking but think but but is afraid to say and that the laughter they get from that is it like that nervous laughter. But I mean it's laughter nonetheless. But yeah, there's a lot of truth in that. I'm gonna I definitely want to read that book because I I have many thoughts on humor in preaching because I know for me one of my my issues is, you know, when I preach, you know, twice a year or or however often I I do it is that I will spend 90% of my prep time on the jokes. And like I know it's okay.
Geoff Dresser:No. No. Don't think about that. I should think about the point I'm trying to make. Or even like and I know this is wrong and so I fight against this but I'm just being real here with you guys.
Geoff Dresser:Appreciate it. I'll be like, I got this really great joke. Now let me find a bible verse that's gonna justify me. So I don't do that. Like I the urge is there but I resist it.
Geoff Dresser:But so here is, here's my theory on this and you're gonna have to just withhold judgment for a moment. Okay? While I unpack this.
Chris Drinnan:Okay. Rains are Rains
Geoff Dresser:are Ready? So just the resurrection is a joke. Okay. Let's talk about a joke. What is a joke?
Geoff Dresser:So a joke is an unexpected reversal. Right? So a joke, there's a setup, and then the the the payoff is some unexpected reversal that results in an outburst of joy, laughter. So that is because I have thought like long and hard about this because when I like like I I can make people laugh like up in fact, I have to I have to put the if I'm in front of people, it's an effort for me to not make jokes.
Chris Drinnan:Oh,
Geoff Dresser:and when I started leading worship, like I realized like, if I get up and then make a wise crack and then and now let us worship like that. That is just very awkward. So I sort of feeling like, oh, is some carnal thing that I need to that I need to put away and I need to be serious because where this is a worship is a serious matter. And and I mean and certainly there's like I don't make jokes when I'm when I'm leading worship, but I've sort of puzzled through that like, okay, my sense of humor is a gift from God And being able to make someone laugh, that's a gift. Like, that's a blessing to be able to to make someone laugh and then sort of realizing, yeah, the resurrection is the greatest joke ever told.
Geoff Dresser:In this this unexpected reversal, which means, like, everything's gonna be okay. And, like, being able to laugh I I mean, there's the the sort of the whole like, to be able to laugh means, hey. It's gonna be okay. Like whatever it is. And often, I mean, the setup is, I mean, the setup is something dark like like in something that's a problem.
Geoff Dresser:Totally. And that that payoff, like being able to laugh about it is is just a a beautiful amazing thing. Yeah. So I I mean, I think that I think that humor definitely has a a place in, like, preaching, in ministry, in leadership. I mean, love the point about how as leaders we need to be really careful.
Geoff Dresser:And so like for me as a as a as a professor, and and now as with more administrative roles, like jokes about firing your subordinates, not funny. Like just like like don't And sometimes like a leader will make a joke like that and it's like, oh, well, you know, we're all it's you know, everyone here knows we love each other and things are good and like, well, yeah. Okay. They are now. But in a few months, they might not be and that like Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:You like, we do have to be Yeah. Do have to be really Read the crowd
Rob Chartrand:and yeah. Absolutely understand the consequences. You're you carry a bigger stick. Your your your words have way more weight Yeah. When you're a leader.
Rob Chartrand:I like the idea of the joke, Jeff. I I think, our listeners might at first just think that that's an affront to the resurrection, but it's not if you understand what the word joke means. I mean, it's
Geoff Dresser:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:You're not saying it's a prank, and you're not saying that it's and yet not make a
Geoff Dresser:as in not serious Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Or not true.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but that's the thing of what makes a joke funny is it's we say this phrase, it's so true. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Right? Do you know what I mean? And the resurrection is Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:The resurrection is a joke is sort of my clickbait title to get Yeah. Yeah. What? And then
Chris Drinnan:yeah. Yeah. So That's fascinating.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. It's not just a joke. Right? You know what mean?
Rob Chartrand:Yes. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:And humor has so much power. Like, you know, like, using it appropriately. Like, I I found as a as a speaker, getting getting a laugh from the crowd or something light puts me at ease. And I and I literally witnessed it. We had a we had an intern up, preaching a few weeks ago, and it was you could tell right off the hop that there's a little bit maybe some nerves in there, but then he he landed a great little comment that brought some laughter.
Chris Drinnan:And literally, the room and him just relax and he settled in and delivered fantastic message that had humor in it. You know? And I I'm like, so Yeah. There's a power in, like, get yeah. That release of something funny that gets people to laugh and puts them at ease.
Geoff Dresser:And I mean, I as I I mean, I've pondered this. I mean, look at when I mean, I actually sort of gave a talk at a men's retreat sort of around this idea that the resurrection is the the greatest joke in all of history. And just seeing like guys get together, what do they start doing?
Chris Drinnan:They start
Geoff Dresser:they start making jokes. Like there's something like it's it's deeply wired into us, the the to to the sense of humor and it's and I think, yeah, it's a beautiful thing. It's a gift and, yeah, and if we can we get back to the eighties since we've been
Rob Chartrand:talking about the eighties? So Eddie Murphy Delirious?
Geoff Dresser:No. Do you remember, SCTV?
Rob Chartrand:Oh, yeah.
Geoff Dresser:Second Series. Love it. There was a Eugene Levy played a character called Bobby Bittman, which was like the, I mean, Bobby Bittman. He was he did bits. He was a comedian and sort of the, you know, the stereotypical, like, smarmy, like, seventies, eighties, stand up comedian type.
Geoff Dresser:And, there was a a skit where he Bobby Bittman retires, like he feels like he's been slighted. So I'm done with this. So I'm gonna retire. So he retires out to a farm. And, and then after, like, week two of his retirement, the news crew goes to do an interview with him and he's miserable.
Geoff Dresser:And he's he's like, I'm I'm so lonely and I can't and what if if I have a heart attack here, who's gonna call the ambulance? The chickens? Like, I'm I'm miserable and like, can you guys and so and that like, and he really is miserable. And then two weeks later, like, he makes his triumphant return comes out of retirement. And he does his comedy routine, and his comedy routine is exactly the same as his miserable monologue to the interviewers.
Geoff Dresser:And he sold that same line. If I had a heart attack, who's gonna call the ambulance? The chickens? And then like everyone laughs. And I like my eyes were opened as a as a teenager realizing like, oh, comedy is the other side of the coin of tragedy.
Geoff Dresser:But like and it all and like like most like really successful stand up comedians are dark people. And like the the joke is like Sure. Yeah. Comedy's funny. Just dress up like an old lady and fall down the stairs.
Geoff Dresser:But to make a comedian laugh, it has to be a real old lady. Like, that's
Rob Chartrand:the Well, and you'll you'll hear me say this quote. I I wear it out all the time is Carol Burnett's famous quote, comedy is tragedy over time. So and that and that's that proximity rule. Like, if it's too close to it, it's not funny. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:But there's a certain period of time where a tragedy is just becomes comic. Like, it it's, you can start looking back at it and, make jokes about it. So give tragedy enough time and it can become pretty funny.
Geoff Dresser:Okay. One more thing about comedy. Ask me what's the key to great comedy?
Rob Chartrand:Jeff, what
Geoff Dresser:is the key to Timing.
Rob Chartrand:Alright. Let's go reverse the other way, Chris. I'm gonna put you on the spot. What's your second book?
Chris Drinnan:My second book is, so this is a book I reread. It comes out of my seminary days. It's Think by John Piper. I really, really appreciated this book. I kinda came out of a tradition maybe that sort of, like, if you were going away to get a degree, was probably okay.
Chris Drinnan:If you were pursuing a master's or heaven forbid a doctorate, they were suspicious about your faith. Like, they were sort of anti intellectual
Geoff Dresser:Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:A little bit like that. So I really appreciated John Piper's book called Think. He's a deep he's a deep thinker, and he sort of under unpacks that, you know, deep thinking isn't a threat to faith. It's one of the ways that we love God. He encourages you know, it is an anti intellectual, and he also challenges that thinking isn't optional for disciples, disciples, which I appreciate.
Chris Drinnan:That you don't actually hanging out with Jesus, you don't actually get the luxury of just disengaging your brain. Piper unpacks lots of stuff in scripture of stories where he presents it in a light where it's sort of like he he's actually challenging his disciples to think deeply about things, not just go through the motions. And I was like, oh, that's that's really neat. He also has a deep call to slow down, ask better questions, and refuse intellectual laziness,
Geoff Dresser:which I
Chris Drinnan:I appreciate. Yeah. For me, I feel like the book was I realized how easy how easily I sort of take. I'm open to spiritual shortcuts and just taking the easy route. And he really encourages sort of patient reflection, like putting in the time, reading, thinking deeply.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. And the benefits that that kinda come from that. Yeah. I love it. Faith can handle curiosity and complexity is the short of it.
Rob Chartrand:So Okay. Yeah. So, how did you say you heard it? Heard about the book?
Chris Drinnan:It came out, like, at I think it was required reading at a Okay. At seminary.
Rob Chartrand:Yep. Alright. What was the course? Do you remember?
Geoff Dresser:You eggheads would read a book like that.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Circular thinking.
Chris Drinnan:I can't remember whose course it was, actually. Okay. It was at Ambrose where I got introduced
Geoff Dresser:to the book.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:And, I mean, I do yeah. Even, like, I mean, Christian circles and sermon prep and stuff like that. Like, I I generally find like, John Piper is a very deep thinker and yet very, very passionate about the gospel and the like, the hope that we have in Christ. And so Mhmm. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:I find yeah. Yeah. I find his writing. And he's so like, the way that he speaks and talks and the scripture references and the tie ins is, like, you can you can tell this guy is so well versed in the Bible. So I almost find his stuff a little bit like devotional in nature where I'll I'll head off on a rabbit trail and some he'll reference some story in the bible connecting to his point.
Chris Drinnan:I'll be like, really? And I'll go back and dig in and go like, oh, yeah. Okay. I see what he's saying. So, yeah, I appreciate sort of his writing style and Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:His challenge to think.
Rob Chartrand:You know, just jumping on something that you said, you and I are from a similar tradition, I felt that way as well. Not necessarily anti intellectual, but suspicious of higher education. And I can remember people throwing verses at me, like, where where, you know, Solomon talks about how much study wearies the soul or, Paul in in, you know, one Corinthians, you'd say, you know, I I didn't come to you with eloquent words or whatever, you know, and philosophies and and whatnot. And and
Chris Drinnan:Lean not on your own understanding.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
Geoff Dresser:so They were simple men, but they'd been with Jesus.
Rob Chartrand:Yes. That's a big Yeah. And yet Paul was highly studied, so was Moses, so were so many, you know, great figures in the Bible. You know? So that was a real challenge for me as well is because I I just thought, well, I'm not doing this because I'm arrogant or haughty, but I I I just really wanna learn and and and grow.
Rob Chartrand:And so I can remember, when I was leaving our church and, was going to the university to study philosophy. And as I was going, they they held, like, a, like, a a going away luncheon for me, and and I and I actually remember having to explain to them, no. I haven't abandoned my faith. I'm I'm going to grow and to develop, and I'm going with God. And I'm hoping as I go onto the campus, I'll be able to, you know, be an influence for Christ and for the gospel and you know?
Rob Chartrand:But having to actually make a case for my own education Yep. I found it really challenging.
Chris Drinnan:Which is kinda funny because historically, like, we have Christianity and Christians to thank for, like, universities, hospitals, like, massive contributions to, like, understanding things and God getting the credit for the truth that they're discovering. Like, it's kinda funny that we'd live in an era where we would almost, like, poo poo that a little bit.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. How how many it's about a 200 page. Not it doesn't look like Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:No. It's not it's not very long. It's, what is the page count? Yeah. 200 pages.
Rob Chartrand:Like it. I haven't read it. I I think I will. Yeah. Alright, Jeff.
Rob Chartrand:What do you got?
Geoff Dresser:Well, I think I'll, since we talked about reading fiction, I I read, like, I don't know, five times as much
Rob Chartrand:Mountop. Is that we're talk about?
Geoff Dresser:Well, I am a little hurt that neither of you picked my book as your
Rob Chartrand:but otherwise.
Chris Drinnan:Wait. You're really into reading fiction books? Oh, yeah. Totally. Written a fiction book?
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. You've written a book?
Rob Chartrand:You didn't know this?
Chris Drinnan:I had no idea.
Rob Chartrand:Oh, it's best kept secret. Are joking right now? No. No.
Chris Drinnan:I joined this podcast and didn't know that Jeff was musical.
Rob Chartrand:Like because Jeff has dropped this book, at least three times in the history of the podcast. Yeah. Appropriately, like well placed drops. And I actually, I think I've dropped it as well. So yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. So Jeff Jeff
Geoff Dresser:I'll you I'll get you a copy. Yeah. Yeah. Kaitlin.
Rob Chartrand:I've got it.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. So, but anyway, yeah, no, I I love reading reading fiction. And so my my go to will be the, the Aubrey Maturin books of Patrick O'Brien. So these are historical British naval, a series of books. There are 20 novels.
Geoff Dresser:Woah. I have read them three times. Wow. It came to a point where I I was like, you know, I would start like, oh, I should read something else in it, but I'll just start these again because because I love it. And the fact that there are 20, I don't know, it's like 10,000 pages like of novels that I could go back and read them and I'm not remembering, you know, all these little details.
Geoff Dresser:Right. And I do think like like my experience is a good book. I will enjoy it more the second time because like the first time, you're just sort of skimming and getting the basic outlines, but you can dig more into the into the details of this book of these books. So the the two central characters are Jack Aubrey, who is a brave and big seafaring captain, who is brilliant on cap on the sea, but is a total fool and a bumbling idiot on land. And you just can't seem to get anything, anything right on land.
Geoff Dresser:Steven Matron, if you sort of think of Kirk and Spock, they are sort of that sort of relationship where Matron is, a doctor and a naturalist. He's also a spy and much more thoughtful, analytical and cerebral. And these 20 novels sort of trace their relationship and their many adventures. All of the naval action, which I confess I don't understand because there are lots of nautical terms, all the naval action O'Brien took them from actual British Navy logs of actual battles. So it follows the history of sort of the Napoleonic Wars and so on.
Geoff Dresser:But incredible things to learn about leadership, about hope, about courage, about, know, sort of the most noble aspects of the human character in incredibly difficult circumstances. And like the books are funny and heartbreaking. There's my I'll give away sort of my favorite moments in these books. Due to, like, corruption of the the naval authorities and Aubrey's own foolish mistakes, he ends up where he is sentenced to be to be put in stocks in a public square. And the idea of this is that when you're in the stocks, this is to shame you and humiliate you.
Geoff Dresser:And you're there for the for whatever the whole day and people walk by and spit at you and throw rotten fruit at you and this is your punishment is to be shamed. And so, when Aubrey gets sense to go in into the stocks, all of the sailors that he has led through his years who all look up to Jack Aubrey and love him and are loyal to him. They are all there at the square and they surround him
Chris Drinnan:and
Geoff Dresser:make sure that and like stand guard so that no one insults their beloved captain Aubrey. And it's just that I mean, it's unexpected this beautiful moment and says so much about leadership. And I think there's so much I mean, the reason I wrote a novel, it started as a how to run a worship ministry book. But I got, like, halfway through the first draft and thought, this is boring. And if I think it's boring, there's there's there's no hope that anyone's gonna find this compelling.
Geoff Dresser:But a story like putting it in a story, I mean, that that, a story carries it along.
Rob Chartrand:Sure.
Geoff Dresser:And there's so much truth that you can tell. I mean, reason the the best stories resonate with us because just like, you know, good humor, we're like, man, that is so true. And there are ways to portray those truths, I think in a deeper way through through story. So I'm a big like, I'm I'm a big believer in reading fiction.
Rob Chartrand:So so what genre would it be? Like, I I know it's, you know, it's it's historical fiction, but is it more thriller, mystery, adventure, like
Geoff Dresser:Adventure, I think would be the adventure. And I also I love espionage novels. John Le Carre, Alan Furst, Robert Lattel. Spy thrillers? Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:Spy thrillers. And so there's espionage angles in, in this as well. But it's mainly, mainly adventure.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool. That's neat. I will, put up this one.
Rob Chartrand:This one might get me in trouble. This is a a book called Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up by Abigail Shrier, and I and I know that this book has, received some critical reviews from both sides, of people who appreciate it and people who don't. I I guess reading Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt has has made me just start speculating and thinking more and more. Why is it that our emerging generations are struggling with mental health more than any other generation? And is it because they are struggling with mental health more, or is it because we've identified it more?
Rob Chartrand:Like, what what, you know, what is the cause of it? And just to be clear, like, I I think I support people seeing a counselor. I I I support therapy and and and whatnot. Good therapy, for sure. But I am curious about it.
Rob Chartrand:So so the basically, the idea of the book is she would say that as well. She supports it as well, and she does see a counselor. But some of her concerns with therapy now is that our knee jerk reaction when a young person is struggling is to immediately just put them into therapy without finding other means and sources and ways of helping them. And and and so we're we're experiencing a therapeutic generation, and she she's concerned that it's self perpetuating. The therapy movement is self perpetuating is is you continuing going back into therapy, but the therapy doesn't actually help you.
Rob Chartrand:And that there are, studies that have done that that therapy actually doesn't help you, it actually makes some people worse. And her concern is that, we because we're part of caught up in this kind of therapeutic movement, in history, we are more self aware and we are more self introspecting than any other point in human history. And self introspection doesn't necessarily make you happier. So you combine that with our hedonistic impulse. So the hedonistic impulse is that you should be happy all the time.
Rob Chartrand:This is our common current assumption. You should be happy all the time. The reality is if you introspect any time during the given day, you probably won't find happiness there. Like, you're you're you're you're not you you can't be happy all the time. But we always ask ourselves the question, how are you feeling?
Rob Chartrand:Right? How are you feeling now? And if you're not feeling happy or you're not feeling content, then there must be something wrong with you. Right?
Chris Drinnan:And refocus on that.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. And the fixation on that. So it's it's it's it's not what people would now, yeah, there is a bit there are some things in here where you might say, well, I'm not too sure about that. But all in all, it's it's well researched.
Rob Chartrand:Okay. And that she's not a clinical psychologist, but she's looking at it from the from the point of view of a of a journalist, of of a writer, and just really good investigative research here on, on therapy. And I and, again, I say this with, you know, with with a grain of salt, understanding that I am not a social psychologist. I I have limitations on that. So, but I think it is a worthwhile read.
Rob Chartrand:There's some things that are takeaways for me as I as I think about my own life. And, and, again, it's not a reaction against therapy or counseling, but it is interesting when we think about ministry, how many pastors are moving away from being pastors and moving into becoming counselors and how our seminaries are shrinking Oh. From biblical studies, and the largest departments in our seminaries, and this is true here as as well Mhmm. Is is the counseling departments. And, actually, they're they're actually sustaining the seminaries.
Chris Drinnan:Oh, interesting.
Rob Chartrand:So there there is a phenomenon that's happening. And and I I mean, and it's only increased post COVID Yeah. As well.
Chris Drinnan:So I can't help but wonder about, like, you know, fifteen hundred years ago, so much more of your your livelihood was connected to your survival, like meeting your basic needs of shelter, food, and and stuff like that. And I and I feel like we live in a day and age where, like, man, you can kinda get by without having to do a lot of like, that stuff is sort of handed to you in in a lot of ways. And I, yeah, so it's almost sort of like, yeah, bends us towards introspection and, you know, or creates an environment where that's you know, where if you've gotta get up every day and you have no choice, you've gotta go out in your working fields or or you don't eat type thing, well, you have a lot less time to kinda cater to, you know, negative thoughts or woe is me or type things like that. Like, you're kinda like, you gotta be act like, your survival depends on you getting out and and working. But Well, in
Rob Chartrand:in in an age of expressive individualism where you have to internalize and and go within yourself to find your identity. Right? And then they take that identity, express it to the world, it it comes back to you, that's who you are. You know, that there there there is a certain I don't know. That I think that's problematic is is to find yourself.
Rob Chartrand:I think I go inside myself, and I don't I don't always like what I find. I mean
Geoff Dresser:Yep.
Rob Chartrand:True introspection. But, anyway, yeah. Hey. Let's let's take a break from the books, and, let me let me talk to you about, your reading or study habits. First of all, I mean, what do you guys do to choose books?
Rob Chartrand:Like, do you do you kind of just random or you hear about things and and the books you wanna read, or you have a process that you use, Geoff? Do you have a process you use for selecting these are the books I want to read? Like, when you think about this coming year, how do you how do you
Geoff Dresser:choose what books you read? I mean, I've read, like over this summer, I read three books on academic administration. Right. So your job like determines that. I mean, I'm also I'm trying to stay stay current on sort of the academic conversation around Christian worship.
Geoff Dresser:So I'm looking at, w David O Taylor is, or I call him w dot is, is one of my favorite authors. And so like this last summer, I read his latest book on embodied worship. So I'm trying to stay current that way. I have a tip though for for how to read this type of this type of book and that is to like to pick up a book like this and read it from the outside in. Don't read it from front to back.
Geoff Dresser:So look at the cover first. Say, oh, is that the title subtitle? Is that what I'm interested in? Look at the back cover. See who the who the quotes are.
Geoff Dresser:Are these other are these other people that if you like john piper and maybe john piper has a recommendation for this book like, oh, okay, that looks interesting.
Chris Drinnan:Then,
Geoff Dresser:then basically work your way out. So read the table of contents and it's like, oh, is this this interesting? Is this gonna help me? Go to the index and look at who are the names? Who are the other names of the people who are quoted?
Geoff Dresser:Are they other people Yeah. That I The bibliography, are they people that I know and love and respect and respect? Maybe not love. But and look at the index to see what sort of topics are in the index. And if all of those, you know, if if all of those are checking your boxes, okay, then read the first chapter, read the introduction and then read the last chapter, read the conclusion.
Geoff Dresser:No, seriously. And so most books, like the author is saying, here's what I'm gonna say in the introduction. Yeah. So you get the whole, like a summary of the whole book in the introduction. And in the conclusion, you'll get, again, here's what I said.
Geoff Dresser:And then the chapters typically are them going into the details of proving what they've said. So very often, you can get what you need out of a book by reading, like, reading the first chapter and the last chapter. And then when you get so if you read the first chapter and the last chapter and you're like, yeah, that's what I needed, then you put that book up on the shelf.
Chris Drinnan:Your students must love you. Oh, yeah. I know. I tell them
Geoff Dresser:that this is how you this is how you do, do your research and and then so it but if you you want more, if you're like, I love this, I can't get enough of it. Then you start reading the chapter. But when you read a chapter, read the first, the introduction to the chapter and the conclusion to the chapter and often like, okay, yeah, I get that. You can move on.
Chris Drinnan:Interesting.
Geoff Dresser:So from the outside, so that's a way to get through a lot of, a lot of books in a, in a short amount of time without because like you can get into the weeds of their unpacking this study done in 1987 but like and you're like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. Like I believe you, you did your research. Let's keep things moving here.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Okay.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. When I did my doctorate, they gave us a I was going say a Palm Pilot. No. A reader, a Kindle reader, white book reader filled with a 100 books. They And said, These are the books you're going have to read for your doctorate.
Rob Chartrand:But then they taught you how to read at a doctoral level. It's much different than reading, say, at an undergrad level. They suggest as Geoff has described. They would even say, for paragraphs, read the first line of the paragraph and the last line of the paragraph. Like, if you have to read through the through the section, you want to read the whole thing.
Rob Chartrand:Right? Because otherwise, you'll never get through all of these books. And then, you know, where you need to go deeper, you need to go deeper because you're not going to retain all of that information. Yes. It's it's what you're really looking for is is is their argument generally sustainable, throughout the book?
Rob Chartrand:And I I heard a really good tip from a friend years ago. He says, listen. If I get through a book and I get through 70% of it, and then I realize the rest of it, I'm just plotting, it doesn't seem like it's seeming, I just put it down. He says, Because most publishers, a lot of them is they want you to add 30% to your book because it's not quite long enough. And so sometimes people will put on two or three chapters at the end of a book, but that's not really central to the book at all.
Rob Chartrand:It's additional or they had something else they wanted to add and they found a way of making it into the book. But it's not really what the book
Geoff Dresser:is all about. And we don't have, we've got like the, you know, you could publish a journal article like sort of twenty, twenty five, maybe 30 up to 50 pages like like, but that's getting pretty long and or a book has to be 300 pages to two fifty at least. So that like, but that 100 page, size that there we don't really have a sort of a commercial Avenue for that. So what ends up happening is you get 50 or whatever 50 page intro 50 page conclusion and then well lard the middle with more stuff to make it feel like a real buck. You know, it's gotta have some weight to it.
Geoff Dresser:More water to the soup.
Rob Chartrand:More pictures. More pictures. Chris, what about you? What what what how do you choose the books you read?
Chris Drinnan:Well, full disclosure, like, I I aspire to be more disciplined in reading and to be a more reader. I'm not yeah. I don't have, like, a a regiment or a rhythm where I'm, like, really disciplined in my in my reading. So it takes a bit for me to pick up a book and actually work my way through it. Need or a desired topic?
Chris Drinnan:Like, if I'm curious about something and wanting to know more, a great book. Really enjoyed that. It was 12 ways your phone is changing you. This book came out, like, a number of years ago, and it it was sort of, like, yeah, really sort of, like, a big study, but also, like, really theologically grounded look at phone usage. And so that book, like, devoured and then did, like like, series out of it and stuff like that.
Chris Drinnan:And, like, so if it's topical that I'm kinda interested in, I'll I'll Yeah. Yeah. I'll look. And, yeah, friends that run-in circles that aren't aren't my own that are way smarter than me, I'll ask them and get kind of book recommendations from them and enjoy that. I do love I mean, we're in close proximity to Briarcrest.
Rob Chartrand:Right.
Chris Drinnan:We have, you know, students at our school and students kind of volunteering and whatever interning with us. And so as I hear them talk and kind of spend time with them, if there's, you know, kinda finding out what stands out to you about a class that you're taking or is there sort of a book occasionally, I'll you know, they'll make a a great case for a good book, and I'll get it that way.
Rob Chartrand:Okay. Yeah. When I was in I mean, I'm I'm not formally in pastoral ministry, although I'm very pastoral still. I I took the the adage leaders are readers very seriously, and so I knew I needed to continue to invest in my own learning even though I wasn't in school. So but I was in school for most of my pastoral ministry.
Rob Chartrand:Like, I was always taking a class somewhere, so I always had books I had to read. But, for my own practice, I I generally had about four categories that I was working through. So I'd I'd have about four books on the go, and I try to read a chapter from each a day if I could. But, so I had a book I make sure I was always reading a book on leadership, on sharpening my ability to lead people well, a book on kind of spiritual devotional book, so that's working through my soul. I would want a deeper theological or philosophical book, so those usually took longer.
Rob Chartrand:I'll admit, I wasn't always reading a chapter of those a day. So that was always important to me. And then something that was cultural, something that was helping me understand what's happening in the world around me, around the church. And so that way I could I could be always be sharp because I think I found that ministry leaders kinda get stuck in their own places. And then I'd read a fiction book.
Rob Chartrand:I always this is my rule is I read fiction before I go to bed because it helps shut my mind off. So I I'll read right now, I'm reading A Wrinkle in Time. I've never read it before. Recommend it. It's really great.
Rob Chartrand:It's written in the sixties. It's kind of a kid's book. It's, it's not long, but it's so well written. Anyway, so I I try and read fiction before before I
Geoff Dresser:go a figures in the finale of Stranger Things.
Rob Chartrand:Absolutely. That's where I saw it. And then I saw it in another another book I I was they're they're talking about it. I'm like Mhmm. I gotta read this book.
Rob Chartrand:It's being referenced all the time. So, anyway, I'm reading that. But but I would I would I would dedicate an hour every morning to reading after I've done my devotions. I would always I'd and the only way I would ever get it done is if I penciled it in. Because once my day started, it was just really hard to find time to to read unless I decided, like, later in the day, I'd go to a coffee shop and read, get out of the office kind of thing.
Rob Chartrand:But otherwise, I I found I I couldn't do it. Okay. Let's go back to our last book. Jeff, do you have a a third, recommend?
Geoff Dresser:I I'll make a different kind of recommendation. Okay. So here's where I, like, you know, you read a you read a book or say you're working on a sermon or something like that and you're like, oh, yeah. I remember reading this somewhere and it's like the perfect great quote or you remember, oh, there's an explanation of where I look up on my bookshelf and I'm like drawing a blank and well, maybe I read that out. So here's how I keep track of notes.
Geoff Dresser:So I use an app. It's also on a you can get it on your computer. It's free. It's called Zotero.
Rob Chartrand:Love Zotero.
Geoff Dresser:And so in in Zotero, it's sort of like keeping your own bibliography. And what I do when I'm reading a I mean, I obviously don't do this with the fun reading, but with I'm reading a theological book or whatever, I'll have Zotero open and and I'll you can make an entry for that book. It keeps a database of your books.
Rob Chartrand:Put notes in?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Put notes in. So then I will but like I like to read my best reading is in my backyard in the patio, like in the summertime. I don't wanna in my comfortable chair, I do not wanna have a pen and paper. I don't wanna have my laptop making notes.
Geoff Dresser:So but I just click on in the app, make a note, and then I hit the microphone and I just say, hey, you know, chapter four has a great explanation of of John four and what the what spirit and truth, really means. Like, I'll put that that note in there. And so then I can just go into Zotero when that's oh wait, where did, look up John four, look up spirit and truth and it'll search on that and it'll find, oh yeah, here's the chapter and then I can go find exactly where that, where that quote is.
Rob Chartrand:And then if you're writing or you're doing workshops or whatnot and you need to source it, it's already there. You
Geoff Dresser:can get the reference. So
Rob Chartrand:if you can just, it's just that discipline of writing it
Geoff Dresser:down because I think like being well read is is great. That's step one, but then being it like getting to full benefit of that, you need some sort of system where you're keeping the records.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. And that apps that's Zotero Zotero
Geoff Dresser:Z o t r o. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:And it'll attach itself to your computer, your browser I think as well and yeah.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty awesome. And in terms of, I'm getting recommendations now, my Instagram feed is full of like the book talk people making recommendations.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And so I, and I get all the, you know, here's books for dudes, know, that those things. And, Larry McMurtry's Blonesome Dove kept kept coming up. So I read that. Absolutely loved it.
Rob Chartrand:Is it good? Okay.
Geoff Dresser:Oh, yeah. Loved it. Now there's there's a little more of the narrative takes place in houses of ill repute than I would prefer in my literature. But if you I mean, it's not exploitive. I mean, it's just sort of reality of what that was like.
Geoff Dresser:But, you know, the two main characters fascinating. Again, two contrasting characters, totally different personalities, but placed in the same extremely difficult circumstances and you see how they they, they handle them. You know, just and great. I love the historical fiction and sort of learning. I prefer the historical fiction.
Geoff Dresser:I with fantasy and sci fi, I kinda find the world building info dump tedious. So
Rob Chartrand:It's hard to do. Yeah. Now that I'm writing one, it is hard to do.
Geoff Dresser:It's hard to do
Rob Chartrand:embedded in narrative. You actually have to do a dump at certain points to to give that Wait.
Chris Drinnan:You're writing a book too?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Yeah. Aren't you aren't you writing a book?
Rob Chartrand:Are you writing fiction?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Yeah. Actually
Rob Chartrand:yeah. Yeah. I'm it's an urban fantasy. I think I'll I'll publish it under a pseudonym though. Can do
Chris Drinnan:feel free to use Chris Drinnan.
Rob Chartrand:I'm gonna share some royalties. Yeah. Hey. Let's let's just do a real quick rapid I know you guys have got another book here, but just just give us the title, what it is you you you, love about it real quick, and and and and we won't go in as deep on that. So, Jeff, you have one sitting there, I see.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. So this is, w David O Taylor, worship theologian. It's called glimpses of the new creation, worship and the formative power of the arts. And, I love this book because it it just inspired me to pursue beauty as an act of worship. So and for me, my main sort of way I express that is through my music and just, yeah, really inspired.
Geoff Dresser:Sometimes we feel like, oh, we just keep it simple and we don't want to be distracting. But like, no, man. God is honored by beauty and so we we can pursue that wholeheartedly. Good.
Chris Drinnan:Chris? That's awesome. For me, it's a book called Practicing the Way by John Mark Kaitlin.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Love it.
Chris Drinnan:Good. Reason I'm recommending this book is reading this book, we walked through this as a staff at Hillcrest, and reading it together as a staff was just as important as the content on this book. And so we're also jumping into this with our LifeCoops, here in the New Year. Yeah. Just really jumps into, like, the nine core principles of apprenticing under Jesus and kinda spiritual disciplines, and I just found it and this like, his church does it so well.
Chris Drinnan:They set it up. They give their stuff away for free on online. The book kinda dives deeper into stuff, but there is videos and, companion guides and everything for all of their stuff online, and it's just an incredible resource that's done really, really well.
Geoff Dresser:So Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Good. Huge fan of this book.
Rob Chartrand:I'll I'll pitch, Miroslav Volf's book. It's called the cost of ambition, how striving to be better than others makes us worse. I think he's concerned about the influence of our of our culture where we're continually striving for success for success for success, but not just success for the sake of success, but for success in the idea that we want to be better than everybody else. And so he makes a distinction between striving for excellence versus striving for superiority. And he says nobody ever in Christianity seems to be questioning whether our striving for superiority is wrong.
Rob Chartrand:And so he looks at, some history. He looks at Kierkegaard. He looks at Milton, and then he looks at Paul, as his sources saw these historical thinkers as well as Paul the apostle and does a deep analysis on that. And he and he's not against striving for excellence or or even comparison. Comparison's not necessarily wrong because we don't know what excellence is without comparison, but this idea that we have to be the best.
Rob Chartrand:And he he looks in particular in realms of, he talks about social media, politics, and education. And these are the areas where he sees that, we we've we've gone in the wrong direction. We should strive for excellence, but not for superiority to be better than everybody else. So, yeah, really, really great book, really, really thoughtful, and transformative. So with access to podcasts, YouTube, and AI, this would be my final question.
Rob Chartrand:Do you think pastors really need to be reading anymore?
Geoff Dresser:Okay. God gave us a book. Okay. So the book is a medium.
Rob Chartrand:I can listen to it.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I'm a obviously, yes. Like, reading is, I mean, so important to be able to go over and to take things in sort of visually. And in a book, I mean, there are sort of layers of accountability that you can trust what, you know, the author is is writing and that it's been edited. Whereas a podcast and believe me, I know we're just making this stuff up off the dome man.
Geoff Dresser:Like who knows? You know, so, like podcasts are, I mean they definitely have their place and I listen to a listen to podcasts almost every day, but like no substitute for reading. So yeah, but AI can do our study for us.
Chris Drinnan:Well, and AI puts out like a ton of podcasts too that there's no real human behind it. It's all AI generated. So yeah, I
Geoff Dresser:think we're gonna see a, you know, things published pre, you know, 2023 or whatever are gonna be sort of the premium pure pre oh, this book is pre AI. So you can, you know, it's actually crafted by a human being and no slop at all. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:I think reading is super important not because, not because AI or YouTube or podcasts are bad, but because I think the act of reading, quieting yourself, taking the time, it forms us in ways that those tools just can't. And so I think, yeah, I think there's something about the slowing down, the reflective thinking, the if you don't like, reading doesn't happen unless you're moving your unless you're actively engaged, you're moving your eyes, and you're working towards meaning and understanding. And there's all kinds of room for you to stop, look up a word, or stop ponder a thought, make connections, and move on. Like, it's so much more at your own pace. There's so much more going on in shaping your brain and engagement that you just don't get from, like, online mediums at all.
Geoff Dresser:Let me ask you, dear listener, have you ever regretted reading a book? You get to the finish thing. Oh gosh. That was a total waste of time. Or did you think like, wow, that was amazing.
Geoff Dresser:My only regret is that it's over now. Like I I think like Yeah. I have even books that I don't agree with, you know, they've challenged me and and I'm glad that I've that I've read them.
Chris Drinnan:Well, and now thank goodness you've only ever read the first in the
Geoff Dresser:last. Well, yeah. And also, like if if if I'm not if it's not working for me, I mean, used to be it used to be a matter of pride. It's like me against the book and
Rob Chartrand:I'm not coming up the book. Plot through this sucker.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. But, but I've gotten over that and I'm like, yeah, if this isn't, if I'm not enjoying this, at a certain point, like, I'll give it a chance. Like, I'm actually currently reading like a a sci fi fantasy book again because it kept, called Red Rising Pierce Brown or something. Know. Forgot the English.
Geoff Dresser:But, like, I had to slog through the info dump world building part of it, but now it's getting more like, I gave it a chance. Like, I'll I'll get through it. But, like, man, I I I love that feeling of finishing a book and feeling like, wow. It's almost like I've made some friends. Like, you know, if it's a if it's a good novel.
Geoff Dresser:And, so, yeah, man, you guys get those books out. Yeah. Make it a make it a habit. Make it a non negotiable.
Rob Chartrand:What I love about reading is it does force you to sit down and stop. You can't like, a podcast, you can drive and listen to a podcast. You can work in your shop and work and listen to a podcast or mow the lawn. And you're not fully engaged, but you're engaged enough. But the nice thing about reading is you can't drive and read or you shouldn't anyway.
Rob Chartrand:Well, you gotta be you gotta sit and think and So
Geoff Dresser:here's what I with this book, if you have Spotify Premium, there's a whole ton of audio books on Spotify. So that Red Rising book was also on Spotify. So when I were driving to and from Winnipeg and my wife was fast asleep, while I was driving, so I plowed through a couple 100 pages of listening to that. I don't do that. And so with novels and light stuff, that's fine.
Geoff Dresser:But if it's more serious or theological things that need to be sitting and reading.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Because sometimes you got to stop and you got to go back or you reference something, you got to look it up and all that sort of thing. And, you know, when my students said, oh, just I just audio the book and I'm like, but did you really get the book? So yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Hey, guys. This has been Rich. I think we gotta call it quits for now, and, thanks for being in the studio. Pastors out there, ministry leaders, we love you and, encourage you, to just continue reading, continue sharpening the saw so that you might be better leaders, for the kingdom.
Rob Chartrand:And we continue to pray for you all, as we jump into this new year of ministry, this new season of ministry for each and every one of us. Guys, thanks for joining me in the studio this morning.
Geoff Dresser:Thanks, Rob. Yeah. Thanks for having us.
Rob Chartrand:You've been listening to the Church in the North podcast, a production of Briarcrest College. To learn more about Briarcrest, visit briarcrest.ca. We all know that when something is good, it's worth sharing. So why not pass on today's episode to a ministry leader or someone who will
Chris Drinnan:find it
Rob Chartrand:helpful? Also, don't forget to leave us a review, share your comments, or hit that subscribe button. We love questions and suggestions, so email us at podcast@Briarcrest.ca. And for more information about the podcast and our hosts, visit churchinthenorth.ca. Thanks for listening.
Rob Chartrand:Until next time.