Rob Chartrand (00:02.049)
What we are excited to have on Church in the North, Cal Fong, he is the equipping and teaching pastor at Ebenezer Baptist in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Cal, welcome to Church in the North.
Calvin Fong (00:13.275)
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a great privilege just to share some thoughts and I hope it can be helpful to those who listen.
Rob Chartrand (00:15.008)
It's a great privilege just to share some thoughts and I hope it can be helpful to those who listen. So I want to get into your backstory and we're gonna do that in a minute but let's talk about your church first. Let's put it this way, you're at a conference, you're shoulders with other pastors who maybe don't know you, it's a coffee break and someone says to you, hey Cal, tell me about your church. How would you respond?
Calvin Fong (00:39.68)
Okay, well, I guess we'd be considered a larger church. Our Sunday morning attendance totals about $950 to $1000. It's grown significantly since COVID. We are an upper middle class church, I think in a nicer area of Saskatoon. It has its pros and cons, of course. And we would be, I think we'd be a church that
Rob Chartrand (00:57.677)
I in a...
Rob Chartrand (01:05.108)
And we would be, I think we'd be a church that really focuses on the kingdom, not so much Ebenezer. Like one of the things we talk about is that we're not just trying to build up our own Ebenezer kingdom, but we want to be a part of what God is doing in South Catoon with other churches in the city and the province and even beyond that. I think we have a great relationship with many other churches in the city.
Calvin Fong (01:09.696)
really focuses on the kingdom, not so much Ebenezer. Like one of things we talk about is that we're not just trying to build up our own Ebenezer kingdom, but we want to be a part of what God is doing in Saskatoon with other churches in the city and in the province and even beyond that. I think we have a great relationship with many other churches in the city. We work together on a lot of different things across denominations.
Rob Chartrand (01:34.19)
we work together on a lot of different things across the nominations and our staff has good relationships with the other pastors in the city as well too. We're also growing in diversity. We have noticed significant increase in those not Caucasian faces I suppose if that's one way to put it. I'm one of the first, I actually may be the first non-
Calvin Fong (01:38.344)
and our staff has good relationships with the other pastors in the city as well too. We're also growing in diversity. We have noticed significant increase in those not Caucasian faces, I suppose, if that's one way to put it. I'm one of the first, I actually may be the first non-Caucasian staff member here at Ebenezer, and it was not
Rob Chartrand (02:03.438)
.
Calvin Fong (02:07.894)
part of the hiring. It wasn't on the qualifications list, but I also feel that it's been a great opportunity for me to serve in this context. Also, some of the distinct features of our church, I think, we're trying to stay centered on the word of God. It's a weird thing to say now. 20 years ago, maybe it didn't have to say it, but we draw that out as one of our key values and we try to ensure that when we preach, when we teach,
Rob Chartrand (02:30.528)
Okay.
Calvin Fong (02:36.28)
Everything we're based on is recognizing the foundation and the authority of the Word of God. And I'm not sure every church would reflect that these days. So I think those are some of the key things I would say characterize Ebenezer.
Rob Chartrand (02:54.422)
So let's go into your journey into ministry. When did the idea of being in ministry first enter into your mind? Talk to us about calling.
Calvin Fong (03:03.606)
Yeah, so my journey is not atypical, but it's also got its own uniquenesses as well. I certainly was not the one who at five years of age said, I'm going to be a pastor or a preacher or whatever. My journey probably goes back to when I graduated high school, became a believer just in the summer after high school and attended a couple years of university at Ottawa and just was finding no direction, no satisfaction.
Rob Chartrand (03:23.982)
in the summer after high school and I attended a couple years of university at Ottawa and I just was finding no direction, no satisfaction and so I had a group of friends going actually to Briar Crest and I didn't know what Briar Crest was, I didn't even know what a Bible college was at that time. I went with them primarily just to get away from home for a year and try to get my head on straight.
Calvin Fong (03:33.118)
And so had a group of friends going actually to Briar Crest. And I didn't know what a Briar Crest was. I didn't even know what a Bible college was at that time. I went with them primarily just to get away from home for a year and try to get my head on straight, try to figure out what was ahead for me. And in that first year, I had a lot of fun, made a lot of good friends, decided to come back for a second year. In my second year,
Rob Chartrand (03:52.056)
to figure out what was ahead for me. in that first year, I had a lot of fun, made a lot of good friends, decided to come back for a second year. In my second year, the sense I got was just to finish a program. My parents being typical Asian parents were concerned that I didn't have a degree. My dad wasn't thrilled that I was at Bible college and rather university, but they were encouraged.
Calvin Fong (04:02.808)
The sense I got was just to finish a program. My parents being typical Asian parents were concerned that I didn't have a degree. My dad wasn't thrilled that I was at Bible college and rather university, but they were encouraging me to finish a program and that's the same sense I had. So I returned for my third and in my third year is probably when I started to get a sense of call. I didn't know exactly what that would look like.
Rob Chartrand (04:19.832)
to me to finish a program and that's the same sense I had. So I returned for my third and in my third year is probably when I started to get a sense of call. I didn't know exactly what that would look like, but I was not just enjoying my studies, but feeling that God was preparing me for something. And so I finished my degree. My wife and I got married the year, the summer after I graduated. And at that time we didn't actively look.
Calvin Fong (04:31.724)
but I was not just enjoying my studies, but feeling that God was preparing me for something. And so I finished my degree. My wife and I got married the year, the summer after I graduated. And at that time we didn't actively look for a ministry position at that time as she was finishing her degree at University of Saskatchewan, but we attended, ironically, Ebenezer Baptist Church.
Rob Chartrand (04:49.346)
for a ministry position at that time, and she was finishing her degree at University of Saskatchewan, but we attended, Ebenezer Baptist Church when we were here in Saskatchewan at that time. And at that time, I think God confirmed a call to ministry on my heart. It was just a matter of where that would be and when. Okay, so some questions. First of all, I mean, when you came to Briar Crest, were you a Christ follower?
Calvin Fong (04:59.99)
when we were here in Saskatchewan at that time. Yeah. And at that time, I think God confirmed a call to ministry on my heart. It was just a matter of where that would be and when.
Calvin Fong (05:19.414)
Yes, but barely, just less than two years. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (05:20.363)
Okay.
Okay, yeah, so very new for you did did you become a follower of Jesus while you're at the university? Okay
Calvin Fong (05:29.76)
No, well, I had grown up in a church setting. And so I was kind of that typical teenager where I had the church face on Sundays and then had my other face in high school. I got involved in not the greatest choices in behaviors, but then got really connected with a great youth group in Ottawa, the Metropolitan Bible Church. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (05:52.618)
in Ottawa, the Metropolitan Bible Church. Okay. Yeah. And they really changed the trajectory of my life. Okay. So what was your program at Briar Crest? Okay, this goes back because they only had like 10 degrees at that time, I think. Yeah. So I think technically on the paper, it's a Bachelor of Arts in Pastoral Ministry. Okay. Yeah. With a focus on
Calvin Fong (05:57.074)
and they really change the trajectory of my life.
Calvin Fong (06:04.216)
Okay, this goes back because they only had like 10 degrees at that time, I think. Yeah. So I think technically on the paper, it's a Bachelor of Arts in Pastoral Ministry with a focus on preaching and youth ministry. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (06:22.318)
Okay, okay. So you're at Ebenezer in Saskatoon. Where did it go from there? Did you find a career in ministry or?
Calvin Fong (06:32.47)
Yeah, so we're attending Ebenezer at that time. This would have been in 92 to 95. And then an opportunity came up for Michelle and I to serve at a Chinese church in Ottawa. So for me, going back home, Michelle would be leaving home. But the uniqueness of it, and this is where I think God, I sense God's calling to it, was they were looking for a youth pastor.
Rob Chartrand (06:43.02)
a Chinese church in Ottawa. So for me going back home, Michelle would be leaving home. But the uniqueness of it, and this is where I think God, like I sense God's calling to it, was they were looking for a youth pastor to work with Asian kids, mostly Chinese. And so that was one of the things that had happened while I was...
Calvin Fong (07:01.036)
to work with Asian kids, mostly Chinese. And so that was one of the things that had happened while I was in Saskatoon was this draw to possibly minister to those who are quote unquote, like me. And so God opened that door and we strongly felt that that was God was leading us. And so we stepped into that.
Rob Chartrand (07:11.726)
Okay.
Calvin Fong (07:28.856)
I was just going say one of the things that happened when I was in Saskatoon was that I was working at a Christian book store. of you who are familiar with Saskatoon may remember Fellowship Book Center. And the two owners at the time were visiting a gentleman in the hospital, a Chinese gentleman. And they were witnessing and trying to share Christ with him. And they were not having a lot of success. Then one day, I think it was right around the Christmas season,
Rob Chartrand (07:41.838)
and they were not having a lot of success. One day, think it around the Christmas season, they came back to the store and they said, this gentleman accepted Christ. And it's all that's great. What happened? They well, we brought along another Asian speaker who could then
Calvin Fong (07:59.348)
they came back to the store and they said, this gentleman accepted Christ. And I said, that's great. What happened? And so, well, we brought along another Asian speaker who could then communicate the gospel in a way that we didn't understand. And I think that that was one of the key moments that drew me into this idea that maybe I should look at working with teens that would have gone through the same life experience that I had.
Rob Chartrand (08:11.95)
communicate the gospel in a way that we didn't understand. And I think that that was one of the key moments that drew me into this idea that maybe I should look at working with teens that were that would have gone through the same life experience that I had. Yeah, yeah. So So how long did you work in that role in Ottawa? Yeah, in Ottawa, it was the Chinese Christian and he served there for 19 years.
Calvin Fong (08:32.76)
Yeah, in Ottawa, it was at the Chinese Christian Chur Ahuaroa and I served there for 19 years. My role changed a little bit during that time, but yeah, 19 years we were there.
Rob Chartrand (08:42.23)
changed a little bit. Okay. yeah, 19 years were there. Wow, that's a long run in a similar role. I don't hear that very often these days. But I feel very blessed that I had that extended time there. And then, yeah, we came back to Ebenezer to serve just over 10 years ago. And again, I feel very blessed to have what would be considered today a longer run in the same place.
Calvin Fong (08:49.4)
I don't hear that very often these days, but I feel very blessed that I had that extended time there. And then, yeah, we came back to Ebenezer to serve just over 10 years ago. And again, I feel very blessed to have what would be considered today a longer run in the same place.
Rob Chartrand (09:11.67)
So how did you make that transition to Ebenezer? Did they reach out to you and said, hey, we've got a role for you? Or did you see a posting? A little, more like the first. OK.
Calvin Fong (09:17.93)
A little, well, more like the first. The youth pastor at Ebenezer when we attended some 30 years ago had become the lead pastor and we had always kept in touch. We had always been kind of friends whenever we were in Saskatoon to visit Michelle's family. We would always stop in at Ebenezer or touch base with Layton Erickson and we'd have meals with them or whatever. We'd just chat.
Rob Chartrand (09:32.686)
So
Calvin Fong (09:44.76)
Leighton and his wife sometimes would find themselves in Ottawa and so we would visit whenever we had an opportunity. So Leighton gave us a call in I want to say it was the fall or early winter of 2013-2014 and said that there was an opening and this was the position and he had thought that this might be a good fit for me and for us and so we explored it and then
Rob Chartrand (10:01.806)
Okay so what was that initial role?
Calvin Fong (10:14.55)
really got a sense that God was calling us, calling back to Saskatoon.
Calvin Fong (10:21.836)
So there's always a difference between your title and your role. It feels like anyway. Yeah, so the title at that time was pastor of, she was community.
Rob Chartrand (10:26.264)
Yeah.
Calvin Fong (10:38.496)
I can't remember actually what it was now. Yeah, we centered everything around the community idea and it was mostly to focus on building relationships within the community, developing ministries that brought us together. You know, to try to bring some sense of ownership, some sense of community as a church. Even then the church was probably six to seven hundred people and so it was fairly large to try to
Rob Chartrand (10:38.99)
can't remember actually what it was now. Yeah, we centered everything around the community idea and it was mostly to focus on building relationships within the community, developing ministries that brought us together. You know, to try to bring some sense of ownership, some sense of community as a church. Even then, the church was probably six to 700 people and so it was fairly large to try to...
Calvin Fong (11:06.316)
draw connection. So that was my primary role.
Rob Chartrand (11:06.702)
about connection. that was my primary role. Okay. Well, now today your title is equipping pastor. How is the role changed today? So yeah, just with I think some of our changes in our discipling strategies, our new colleague pastors saw a need to kind of have someone overseas, what we would call our core equipping ministries. And so they asked if I would look at that. I agree.
Calvin Fong (11:15.746)
So yeah, just with that, I think some of our changes in our discipling strategies, our new co-lead pastors saw a need to kind of have someone overseas, what we would call our core equipping ministries. And so they asked if I would look at that and I agreed. the role, it's not just driving programs or running programs or recruiting for programs, excuse me.
Rob Chartrand (11:36.366)
it's not just driving programs or running programs or recruiting for programs, but it's the idea of taking some of these programs as tools and then executing them, also with the way of
Calvin Fong (11:43.799)
but it's the idea of taking some of these programs as tools and then executing them, but also with the way of giving them to the people to use, I guess it'd be. So it's not so much running it in the church building, in the church facility with church staff, but it's actually training people to use them so that they can take it wherever context they find themselves in.
Rob Chartrand (11:55.982)
Okay. So, does that do you still have part of the old portfolio though like community I got imagine small groups as part of the old portfolio.
Calvin Fong (12:21.932)
It was, but we saw that that was a pretty big piece early on. so shortly after I arrived, we moved into hiring a specific staff member to oversee what we call our life groups. And that part now is not on my plate.
Rob Chartrand (12:25.806)
Okay. You talked about co-lead pastors and I find this interesting looking at your website and talking with some of your staff team members. When you started, was there co-lead pastors and if not, then how did it evolve into?
Calvin Fong (12:43.192)
Mmm.
Rob Chartrand (12:54.7)
code lead pastor model.
Calvin Fong (12:57.56)
So it wasn't a co-lead model when I arrived. It was just a lead pastor, Leighton Erickson at the time. He formed what we called the lead team around him, which I was a part of. There was four, maybe there were five of us at one time, but anyway, a team. When Leighton let the board and the leadership know that he was thinking of retiring,
Rob Chartrand (12:59.022)
So it wasn't a Colby model when I arrived. It was just a singular.
Yeah
Calvin Fong (13:27.104)
the board and took some time to reflect on how to move forward. And they proposed this co-lead model with input from Layton as well. And so they divided the responsibilities into two kind of major categories. And then we began that search for two. We found that the responsibilities of the lead pasture, and that could be part of our governance model and things, but also because we were growing.
Rob Chartrand (13:32.632)
and they proposed this co-lead model with input from Leighton as well. And so they divided the responsibilities into two kind of major categories. And then we began that search for two. We found that the responsibilities of the lead pastor, and that could be part of our governance model and things, but also because we were growing, not just numerically, but our ministries were expanding, especially in the area of our-
Calvin Fong (13:56.792)
not just numerically, but our ministries were expanding, especially in the area of our partner congregations, which I think we'll talk about a little bit later. We felt that having two people that could work together to help envision, to strategize, drive the ministries, oversee staff, know, the whole HR side of it would have been better than just to look for one person.
Rob Chartrand (14:03.054)
which I think we'll talk about a little bit later. We felt that having two people that could work together to help envision, to strategize, drive the ministries, oversee staff, you the whole HR side of it would have been better than just to look for one person. Okay. Yeah. And so how many years have you guys been working in this model? Not for very long. Less than two years. wow. Okay. Very, very new. Okay.
Calvin Fong (14:26.104)
Not for very long, less than two years. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (14:32.162)
Well, I'll have to find out from you guys five years later from now how it's working because it's a unique model. So, Evinnese obviously has been growing. What factors have contributed to its growth?
Calvin Fong (14:35.32)
Yeah.
Calvin Fong (14:45.976)
I think there's a few things. I would say after COVID, we noticed that a lot of churches were declining. I think some of it was the malaise, I don't know, of being able to see everything online because most churches that were able to went online. And we still have a handful of people who primarily watch online and that's fine. But there was also some other things missing. And I think they were more
Rob Chartrand (14:46.894)
think there's a few things. I would say after COVID, we noticed that a lot of churches were declining. I think some of it was the malaise, I don't know, of being able to see everything online because most churches that were able to went online. And we still have a handful of people who primarily watch online and that's fine. But there was also some other things missing. And I think they were more...
Calvin Fong (15:15.852)
to do with like a spiritual emptiness. I think of loneliness as an obvious one. People would be so disconnected and looking for connection and community. I also think from a theological, biblical perspective, people were noticing that there was just a void of truth. And I don't know, I don't have any stats to back this up, but I would suggest that
Rob Chartrand (15:16.302)
to with like a spiritual emptiness. I think of loneliness as an obvious one. People would be so disconnected and looking for connection and community. I also think from a theological, biblical perspective, people were noticing that there was just a void of truth. And I don't know, don't have any stats to back this up, but I would suggest that...
Calvin Fong (15:44.724)
we're kind of in a truth vacuum right now. And I think people have tried a lot of different things, different ideologies, different philosophies, approaches to life and all of that. And I think we're on the end of it where people are realizing it's just not working. And so as it relates to Ebenezer, I think that one of the things that we've done is we've just stuck to the truth of scripture and we've just continued to preach scripture.
Rob Chartrand (15:45.43)
and
Calvin Fong (16:12.684)
we continue to build our foundation of not just our church, but our lives, our philosophy of ministry, how we're doing things on the authority of scripture. One of the things that we do regularly is we preach through an entire book of the Bible. And sometimes you run into passages that in this culture and day and age, it's like, did you sure you want to touch that? You you might turn people off.
Rob Chartrand (16:14.438)
build our foundation of not just our church but our lives, our philosophy of ministry, how we're doing things on the authority of scripture. One of the things that we do regularly is we preach through an entire book of the Bible. And sometimes you run into passages that in this culture and day and age it's like, did you sure you want to touch that? You know, might turn people off or you might offend people.
Calvin Fong (16:41.29)
Or you might offend people. Being offended seems to be a priority value now. And we've just said, you know, if God's Word says it, then we have to say it. Now, having said that, one of the ways that we've challenged ourselves is how do we present truth but with grace and love? And I think it's some of the issues of the day. We do have to change our posture on how we present truth without compromising the truth.
Rob Chartrand (16:43.15)
being offended is to be a priority value now. And we've just had, know, if God's word says it, then we have to say it. Now, having said that, one of the ways that we've challenged ourselves is how do we present truth, but with grace and love? And I think it's some of the issues of the day, we do have to change our posture on how we present truth without compromising the truth. And I think we've navigated that.
Calvin Fong (17:10.806)
And I think we've navigated that pretty good at Ebenezer. Certainly we have some critics, we have people we've offended. I know there are people I've offended, but we try to reach out, we try to make sure we have good communication with them. So I think that's one of the reasons for our growth. I think just the natural rhythm of immigration, again, mentioning earlier that the face of our congregation has become more colorful.
Rob Chartrand (17:12.952)
really good at Demaniser. Certainly we have some critics, have people we've offended, I know there people I've offended, but we try to reach out, we try to make sure we have good communication with them. So I think that's one of the reasons for our growth. I think just the natural rhythm of immigration, again, mentioned earlier that the face of our congregation has become more colorful. think that that has also helped.
Calvin Fong (17:38.776)
I think that that has also helped. We know many of the people who are immigrating here are familiar with Baptist Church and so they are drawn immediately to us as a Baptist Church and many of them have found a church home here. And I also think, again, going back to this idea that there's a void that people are feeling, we are finding, I would say almost every week,
Rob Chartrand (17:42.158)
Calvin Fong (18:04.854)
people are just dropping in because they saw us on the corner, they were walking their dog, they were driving by and something stirred in them to just say, I need to get back to a church and just try to find that connection again, maybe that they feel like they've been missing. So we seem to get a handful of people every week who are just like, I don't know why I'm here. And we've tried to again, change our, be intentional about our posture.
Rob Chartrand (18:12.15)
and something started them to just say I need to get back to a church and just try to find that connection again maybe that they feel like they'd be missing so we seem to get a handful of people every week who are just like I don't know why I'm here and we've tried to again change our intention about our posture towards those who are seeking those who are on a journey in fact that's one of our values
Calvin Fong (18:34.464)
towards those who are seeking, those who are on a journey. In fact, that's one of our values. We recognize that everyone is on a different, sorry, in a different place in their spiritual journey, and we respect and honor that.
Rob Chartrand (18:40.77)
We recognize that everyone is on a different, sorry, in a different place in their spiritual journey. And we respect and honor that. Well, it seems you also have really strong next gen ministries as well with your children and with your youth there. Is that something that is attractive for parents like who want to disciple the next generation? Yeah, it absolutely is a great initial first step. Like I think one of the things we've tried to do is get away.
Calvin Fong (18:53.175)
Mm-hmm.
Calvin Fong (19:01.718)
Yeah, it absolutely is a great initial first step. Like think one of the things we've tried to do is get away from this. I don't want to oversimplify it, but you know, that kind of a tractional church that was probably more in the 80s and 90s. You know, the way to build a church was a charismatic speaker, clean bathrooms, great parking, and a strong youth ministry. Yeah, good coffee. Yeah, we don't have good coffee. Yeah, we're lacking on the
Rob Chartrand (19:10.158)
yeah good coffee disco ball
Calvin Fong (19:31.254)
good coffee, we're okay coffee, and I haven't taken out the disco ball for my youth ministry days yet. but yeah, no, think our youth and children's pastors and the ministry here, the team that they've built, their focus on just presenting Jesus as, you know, the best way of life has been powerful. And yeah, we do get people who come because their youth have been drawn into the community here.
Rob Chartrand (19:37.71)
But yeah, I think our youth and children pastors and the ministry here, the team that they've built, their focus on just presenting Jesus as the best way of life has been powerful. yeah, we do get people who come because their youth have been drawn into the community here.
Calvin Fong (20:00.728)
And yes, our youth ministry, children's ministry, our God is blessing.
Rob Chartrand (20:02.99)
children's ministry are god is blessing yeah yeah so have you seen fruit like baptisms happening
Calvin Fong (20:12.288)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's been one of our key indicators, I would say. And we were probably baptized more in this last year than maybe, well, last two years, probably more than in the last five or seven years. Yeah. We've also tried to just simply highlight the importance of baptism and making sure that we're presenting that at every opportunity. But yeah, a lot of our young people especially are being baptized.
Rob Chartrand (20:13.922)
Yeah, that's been one of our key indicators, I would say. And we have probably baptized more in this last year than maybe, well, last two years, probably more than in the last five or seven years. We've also tried to just simply highlight the importance of baptism and making sure that we're presenting that at every opportunity. But yeah, lot of our young people, especially are being baptized.
Calvin Fong (20:42.656)
We're seeing older people baptized because they're coming back to faith or just even some cases, discovering faith. So it's been exciting that way.
Rob Chartrand (20:43.182)
saying older people, bad guys because they're coming back to faith or just even some in case it's covering faith. So it's it's been exciting that way. Well, I'm really interested in exploring your model of the multi-ethnic church. So why don't we start with you telling us about partner churches. I mean, we see that on your website. Tell us what they are and maybe give us a bit of the philosophy behind that. Yeah. So I wouldn't say this was
Calvin Fong (20:58.007)
Mm.
Calvin Fong (21:08.15)
Yeah, so I wouldn't say this was a result of some extended strategy meeting or it kind of fell on us a little bit and but we just tried to react and respond well to what God was doing and showing us and I think we've tried to steward that well as well. Yeah, so one of the stories that started it off was we had an immigrant
Rob Chartrand (21:12.814)
some extended strategy meeting or it kind of fell on us a little bit. But we just tried to react and respond well to what Don was doing and showing us. And I think we've tried to steward that well as well. Yeah. So one of the stories that started it off was we had an immigrant who came to Canada from Jordan.
Calvin Fong (21:38.456)
who came to Canada from Jordan and kind of just walked in the doors of Ebenezer and, one step back. He was staying in a hotel and he opened the drawer and I think there was a Gideon's Bible there, but there was also a business card from one of our former pastors who just retired by the name of Brian Conrad. And so he picked up this card and saw the church on it and so he went to visit that card.
Rob Chartrand (21:41.184)
and
Calvin Fong (22:06.942)
And so he visited Ebenezer and during the service he met Brian and Brian invited him out for lunch and they had lunch together and at the end of the meal, his name is Shadi by the way, he, offered to give Shadi his card so they could keep in contact. And the story is that Shadi said, no, no, no, don't worry. I really have your card. And Brian was confused. Like, how did he get this? He says, well, he found it.
Rob Chartrand (22:11.042)
During the service he met Brian and Brian invited him out for lunch and they had lunch together and at the end of the meal, his name is Shadi by the way, and Brian offered to give Shadi his card so they could keep in contact and the story is that Shadi said, no, no, no, don't worry, I already have your card and Brian was confused like how did he get that seat? Well, he found it in the hotel room and so that...
Calvin Fong (22:36.65)
in the hotel room. And so that started Shadi being with us. So fast forward a few years, then we started to notice that we were getting more and more ethnicities coming. We didn't know quite how to do it. But then Shadi approached us with this idea of starting an Arabic church. And Leighton, our lead pastor at the time, really sensed God's call on Shadi's life.
to pastor and to minister. So he was working for UPS at the time, but he would take all of his off hours to start growing and developing this church. And so we allowed, well, not so much allowed, but he used our building for meetings, our other facilities for some of their ministries. And then we, and I'm not sure if I the order right, but then a Nepali group kind of came to us.
Rob Chartrand (23:09.774)
Hmm.
Calvin Fong (23:35.356)
and they had a leader and kind of made an arrangement for the same similar thing. And then we had a Ukrainian group and then now we have a Korean fellowship as well too. Well, they're Korean church. And so what has happened is we have these partner congregations that meet sometimes on Sunday at same times as our regular services.
Rob Chartrand (23:40.302)
same similar thing. And then we had a Ukrainian group and then now we have a Korean fellowship as well too. Well, they're a Korean church. And so what has happened is we have these partner congregations that meet sometimes on Sunday at same times as our regular services, sometimes in other.
Calvin Fong (24:04.406)
sometimes at other times. And we try to integrate our ministries together, especially our youth ministries to start, because that's like the natural place to start. The youth speak English, they're in multicultural settings, they have friends of all different kinds of cultures. And so we've tried to integrate these ministries together while allowing or
Rob Chartrand (24:07.13)
We try to integrate our ministries together, especially our youth ministries to start, because that's like the natural place to start. youth speak English, they're in multicultural settings, they have friends of all different kinds of cultures. And so we've tried to integrate these ministries together while allowing or...
Calvin Fong (24:30.326)
The strategy is still to that, you these immigrants still want to worship in their heart language. And so, but we see the value of coming together and not only for Ebenezer to provide them a place to worship, a facility. Sometimes we provide some covering from the legal side of things like, you know, they don't have a registered charity number or they don't have bylaws or those kinds of things. And so we provide that for them.
Rob Chartrand (24:30.99)
Okay
Calvin Fong (25:00.46)
But then we're also learning from them, from their various ways of worshipping, the way they understand and see scripture, the values, their worldviews, and all of that is kind of coming together. And so this partner model is, I think, fairly unique. I'm not familiar with one. By time in Ottawa and then also interacting with churches in Toronto, I have not seen this way of reaching new Canadians.
Rob Chartrand (25:01.588)
learning from them, from their various ways of worshipping, the way they understand and see scripture, the values, their worldviews, and all of that is kind of coming together. So this partner model is, I think, fairly unique. I'm not familiar with one. I, in my time in Ottawa, and then also interacting with churches in Toronto, I have not seen this way of reaching new Canadians. Most often the pattern is...
Calvin Fong (25:28.918)
Most often the pattern is, you know, group of immigrants will come because they speak the same language and all of that. They form a church. And then what happens is as their young people get older, they recognize they need an English ministry. And so in the Chinese church context that I grew up in, they would hire an English pastor, which is really a youth pastor. And then they would take that group. But then the challenges come when those youth
Rob Chartrand (25:30.946)
you know, a group of immigrants will come because they speak the same language and all of that. They form a church. And then what happens is as their young people get older, they recognize they need an English ministry. Yeah. So in the Chinese church content that I grew up in, they would hire.
which is really a youth master, and then they would take that group. But then the challenges come when those...
Calvin Fong (25:57.748)
hit university. There was an epidemic and again it's not unique to a Chinese church but my understanding and my study and it has been in a Chinese church context, they would often leave not just a church but leave faith. so the ministry kind of loses its audience at a certain time and then these young people if they stay with the faith they go to
Rob Chartrand (26:05.154)
Yeah.
Calvin Fong (26:26.292)
university away from the city or they marry outside of their culture. And so the need for that ethnic-based church begins to decline. Unless there's continual immigration of that particular people group, in the bigger cities like Vancouver, Toronto, it's sustainable. But in the smaller cities, even the Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton's, Winnipeg maybe,
Rob Chartrand (26:34.548)
Yeah.
Calvin Fong (26:53.964)
I would think that the flow of that people group is eventually going to taper off. And so this model of starting with a Canadian church and then developing and helping develop these ethnic ministries, I think is a bit unique and I think it has some significant advantages to kind of the old model.
Rob Chartrand (27:05.07)
Yeah, so question about the partnership churches you said that some of them have their own charitable status others don't so are there different levels of partnership that you have like some are more you know, they're their own congregation, but they're
Calvin Fong (27:22.925)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (27:33.09)
their partnership with you might be a little bit more loose because they've got their own systems in place.
Calvin Fong (27:38.488)
Yeah, I think at the strategic level we're trying to work together. But with some of the other things, there's a little bit less connection. So for instance, one of the partner churches, yes, they have their own charitable status and structure. They collect their own offerings, so they pay for their own staff and all of that. So there isn't as tight a connection that way.
Rob Chartrand (27:43.552)
Okay.
and structure, they collect their own offerings, so they pay for their own staff, and all of that. So there isn't as tight a connection that way.
Calvin Fong (28:06.924)
But in terms of moving forward strategically to be more effective, maybe even create some new opportunities to reach other parts of the city that they alone can't do and we alone can't do. I think we're still trying to work together and develop strategies in that area. Yeah, it's still a fairly new model. So there's still a lot of things we dream about, but haven't come into fruition yet.
Rob Chartrand (28:09.304)
or strategically to be more...
some new opportunities to reach other parts of the city that they alone can't do and we alone can't do. I think we're still trying to work together and develop strategies in that area. It's still a fairly new model. there's still a lot of things we dream about but haven't yet to fruition yet. Yeah. Well, yeah, you're building it more like a Tetris model rather than, you know, from the ground up.
and you make it universal. So I mean, that means that some of the partner churches staff will be on Ebenezer's payroll and then on other partner churches, they all have their own payroll. They'll have all their own systems. Yeah. And then you said some churches run at different times than your Sunday morning services. And then you have some of the churches that run concurrently with your Sunday morning services. Okay. So the Arabic church
Calvin Fong (28:53.218)
That is correct. Yeah, that is correct.
Calvin Fong (29:03.148)
Yeah, yeah. So the Arabic church meets during our second service time. So one of the things we're trying to do is get them to join us for coffee, to just do some cross pollination, you know, between Ebenezer and the Arabic church. The Nepali fellowship or Nal Poly Church, they've got, the Nepali community in Saskatoon has dropped in population significantly. The rumor has it,
Rob Chartrand (29:17.39)
between Ebenezer and the Arabic Church. The Napoli Fellowship...
Okay.
Calvin Fong (29:32.748)
that a lot of them moved to Lethbridge. And I'm not entirely sure why. But our Nepali pastor has an online service with the Nepali community. And they still have lot of ministry things going on, even if it's not happening in the building itself. And then with the Ukrainian community, we actually have kind of two arms working on that. We have one leader who leads a church
Rob Chartrand (29:41.046)
the polly pastor has a lot like service with the polly community and they still have a lot of history things going on even if it's not happening in the building itself and then with the ukrainian community we actually have kind of two arms working on that we have one leader who leads a church on a saturday night and they're a fairly large group
Calvin Fong (30:02.836)
on a Saturday night. And they're a fairly large group, lot of the new immigrants, those being displaced from the war, so on and so forth. But we also have a significant Ukrainian community who attend Ebenezer, one of the three services, primarily the second service, because we have offered simultaneous interpretation of the service.
Rob Chartrand (30:08.694)
lot of the new immigrants those being displaced from the war so on and so forth but we also have a significant ukrainian community who attend evaneser one of the three services and primarily the second service because we have
is interpretation of the service during the second service. And so they wear earbuds and they listen to a translator, particularly for the sermon.
Calvin Fong (30:30.392)
during the second service. And so they wear earbuds and they listen to a translator, particularly for the sermon. And then our, go ahead. I was just going to say the Korean church meets Sunday afternoon. But again, we're working on different strategies to try to integrate our ministries more.
Rob Chartrand (30:44.974)
Are Ebenezer's three services all Sunday morning or is one a Saturday night? Okay so the ones that run concurrently with you I'm imagining they share your children's ministry?
Calvin Fong (30:56.726)
No, all Sunday morning. Yeah.
Calvin Fong (31:05.368)
Yes, they share our children's ministry. A lot of the youth also attend our youth ministries, not on Sunday, but on the Tuesday and Wednesday nights. And some of them have even gotten involved in a few of the other ministries as well.
Rob Chartrand (31:11.438)
And which of the partner churches are sending their youth to the youth ministry?
Calvin Fong (31:28.792)
Arabic, Ukrainian, those would be the two main ones. The Korean church has their own youth ministry, but again, we're trying to find creative ways to do a little bit more integration.
Rob Chartrand (31:34.222)
Okay, okay, yeah. The Korean church has their own youth ministry, but again, we're trying to find creative ways to do a little bit more integration. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So it is just all over the map in terms of the learning and navigating any particular challenges you're having with trying to coordinate and care for all of these partner churches. Well, there's a logistic
Calvin Fong (31:52.385)
Yeah.
Calvin Fong (31:59.8)
Well, there's a logistical side that's challenging. Use of the building, other resources, coordinating so that we're not stepping on each other's toes is a big part. But I think that for me, and again, this is the perspective I come from, I'm not a logistics guy. I would consider myself more in the area of vision and strategy, is trying to get all the leaders on board.
Rob Chartrand (32:03.916)
Yeah. That's challenging. Use of the building, other resources, coordinating so that we're not stepping on each other's toes is a big part. But I think that for me, and again, this is the perspective I come from, I'm not a logistics guy. I would consider myself more the area of vision and strategy is trying to get all the leaders on board with kind of...
Calvin Fong (32:29.344)
with kind of coming together and seeing the advantages of actually being closely knit as a church with all of these now different opportunities to reach different corners of the cities. It's a synergy thing. It's a little bit like we're greater than the sum of our parts. No, no, we're greater that the sum of our parts is greater than us individually. Yeah. Yeah. So I think trying to share that vision
Rob Chartrand (32:30.542)
The parts yeah, yeah
Calvin Fong (32:58.648)
has kind of been on my heart and I think we're slowly.
Rob Chartrand (32:59.726)
Well, you've already shared a little bit about how your life experience informs how you lead in a multi-ethnic church, but tell us more. Tell us more about that.
Calvin Fong (33:11.597)
Mm-hmm.
Calvin Fong (33:15.19)
Yeah, I grew up again in a Christian home. Both my parents are believers and we primarily attended a Chinese church when I was growing up. It was not a place that I connected well, not many people my age. The things didn't connect with me or my sister and they were doing it primarily in one language in Chinese, which I had limited or almost no understanding.
Rob Chartrand (33:24.904)
when I was growing up. It was not a place that I connected well. Not many people my age. The things didn't connect with me or my sister. And they were doing it primarily in one language in Chinese, which I had limited or almost no understanding. So I felt very left out. never became a priority in those.
Calvin Fong (33:45.012)
So I felt very left out. never became a priority in those early years because it was just a boring place to go. We found more excitement out of throwing a tennis ball at the side of the building, you know, during the service times. And then my parents recognized it and sent us to the Met, Metropolitan Bible Church. And we attended there for a few years.
Rob Chartrand (33:53.074)
years because it was just a boring place to go. We found more excitement out of throwing a tennis ball at the side of the building, you know, during the service times. And then my parents recognized it and sent us to the Metropolitan Bible Church. And we attended there for a few years, just my sister and I. But then my parents also recognized the need for them to be a part
Calvin Fong (34:15.0)
just my sister and I, but then my parents also recognized the need for them to be a part of that in our lives. And so they made the move to go to a church that was less comfortable for them and started to attend the Met. And that's where I again came to faith and through the ministries there, know, again, the trajectory of my life went in a direction that I don't even want to think of if it hadn't happened. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (34:22.976)
in our lives. And so they made the move to go to a church that was less comfortable for them and started to attend the Met. And that's where I again came to faith. through the ministries there, know, again, the trajectory of my life went in a direction that I don't even want to think of if it hadn't happened. So with that, I began to get a burden for second generation of particular youth.
Calvin Fong (34:44.792)
So with that, I began to get a burden for second generation or particular youth. And that is again the doors that God opened up for me when I started into ministry. I see the challenges, some of them, I don't say I know them all, but I think my life experience illustrated some of the challenges. I began to do more study and research and at that time it would have been very limited research on the Chinese or Asian church.
Rob Chartrand (34:52.76)
And that is again the doors that God opened up for me when I started into ministry. I see the challenges, some of them, don't say I know them all, but I think my life experience illustrated some of the challenges. I began to do more study and research.
Rob Chartrand (35:14.062)
I began to think through what does ministry to immigrant communities and their next generation and their further generations look like? Many immigrant communities don't have a legacy of Christian heritage. Like in my family, it's only my parents. I have one aunt, one uncle who are believers.
Calvin Fong (35:14.834)
And so I began to try to think through what does ministry to immigrant communities and their next generation and their further generations look like. Many immigrant communities don't have a legacy of Christian heritage. Like in my family, it's only my parents. I have one aunt, one uncle who are believers, but then
I might be missing a couple, but really there's no extended Christian heritage in my family. So first-generation immigrants are not only trying to figure out the new culture, the new land, the new weather, the new food, the new values that they're living in, they're trying to figure out what being a Christian looks like and then trying to pass that on to their kids. I remember one of the things that I dealt with in youth ministry when I was in Ottawa.
Rob Chartrand (35:43.938)
I might be a couple, but really there's no extended Christian heritage in my family. first generation immigrants are not only trying to figure out the new culture, the new land, the new weather, the new food, the new values that they're living in, they're trying to figure out what being a Christian looks like. And then they try to pass that on to their kids. I remember one of the things that I dealt with in youth ministry when I was in Ottawa.
Calvin Fong (36:12.992)
was that we'd often have our event nights on Fridays. Like our regular programming was on Fridays. And I tried to shift it to midweek, but it was like an absolute no-go because of course it's a school night. then, yeah, exactly, homework terms everything, especially in Asian culture. Often we'd have a retreat or whatever and I'd ask a certain kid, hey, are coming to the retreat? And he goes,
Rob Chartrand (36:13.346)
was that we'd often have our event nights on Fridays. Like our regular programming was on Fridays. And I tried to shift it to midweek, but it was like an absolute no go. Because of course it's a school night. Right, homework trumps everything else. Homework trumps everything, especially in Asian culture. Often we'd have a retreat or whatever, and I'd ask a certain kid, hey, are coming to the retreat? He goes, no, my...
Calvin Fong (36:42.04)
No, my parents won't let me go because I did badly on a test or whatever. so parents don't realize it, but they're actually making a value statement when they do that. Right. And all of a sudden now if school or those academic things, Trump, youth and church things, then you're communicating a message that often the parents don't intend to communicate, but they do. And so that's one of the challenges. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (36:43.342)
let me go because I did badly on a test or whatever. And so parents don't realize it, but they're actually making a value statement when they do that, right? And all of a sudden now, if school or those academic things, Trump, youth and church things, then you're communicating a message that often parents don't intend to communicate, but they do. And so that's one of the challenges.
Calvin Fong (37:11.608)
And then of course with the young person, they're also feeling the tug between their home culture, which their parents want them to preserve some of it. But then there's a Canadian culture and Canadian values, and then now you're trying to introduce a Christian culture and Christian values. So there's a lot of pulls in various ways that I think bring uniqueness. Again, not that it's any more difficult, I don't think, but there's a...
Rob Chartrand (37:12.346)
and of course with the young person they're not they're also feeling the tug between their home culture which their parents want them to preserve some of it but then there's a Canadian culture and Canadian values and then now you're trying to introduce a Christian culture and Christian values so there's a lot of pulls in various ways I think bring the uniqueness again not that it's any more difficult I don't think but there's a
Calvin Fong (37:41.3)
a difference and I think a difference that those in that kind of ministries need to be aware of.
Rob Chartrand (37:42.126)
difference. And I think a difference that those in that kind of ministries need to be aware of. Hmm. Are there some ethnic congregations that might be more unwilling to send youth to like youth group than others? I mean, I found this when I was pastoring before in a multi ethnic context. And the and it might be maybe it's the academics or maybe it's just the reality that like
youth ministries is very much a North American Western phenomenon. But I mean, that it was it was always a hard sell to get kids from an ethnic background, get their parents to either encourage them or or even, you know, really want them to go to say like youth group.
Calvin Fong (38:13.399)
Mm-hmm.
Calvin Fong (38:29.144)
Well, I wouldn't say I have enough experience across many cultures to make a factual statement on that. The context that I have been involved in, including here at Ebenezer, I would say many of the Asian, like Chinese cultures would probably be a little more resistant to that. They would see youth as certainly second or third in the list of priorities.
Rob Chartrand (38:29.55)
Well, I wouldn't say I have enough experience across many cultures to make a factual statement on that. The context that I have been involved in, including here at Ebenezer, I would say many of the Asian, like Chinese cultures would probably be a little more resistant to that. They would see youth as...
Certainly second or third in the list of priorities. Sometimes the perception is youth are just for fun. You don't want to have fun. that is one of the things that we want to draw kids in. But at the same time, I think a relationship with Jesus is more attractive now than, know, budget jumping off the church steeple or whatever the youth happen to be doing. So I think that I, well, I faced a certain number of, a certain amount.
Calvin Fong (38:57.56)
Sometimes the perception is youth is just for fun. You don't want to have fun. And that is one of things that we want to draw kids in. But at the same time, I think a relationship with Jesus is more attractive now than, you know, bungee jumping off the church steeple or whatever the youth happen to be doing. So I think that I, well, I faced a certain number, a certain amount of resistance with our parents.
Rob Chartrand (39:23.672)
resistance with our parents. And I don't know about the others. I think it's hard to say for like with our context here, Arabic, Ukrainian, Korean, I'm not sure. certainly there is a resistance with with the Asian cultures that I've been involved with. Yeah. Well, I mean, in the North American context that I mean, the history of youth ministry evolved out of the history of the high school. And so there's
Calvin Fong (39:26.776)
And I don't know about the others. I think it's hard to say for like with our context here, Arabic, Ukrainian, Korean, I'm not sure. But certainly there is a resistance with the Asian cultures that I've been involved with.
Rob Chartrand (39:53.528)
there's very much a cultural piece there that it's very, very much linked to that it was a response of the formation of adolescent culture. Like adolescent culture is now it's become more worldwide now that, you know, secondary education has become more universalized across the globe, but in its early days. Yeah. And so not everywhere has like youth ministry necessarily. Although, I mean, I will say I went to David Young, he chose church in
Calvin Fong (40:02.316)
Mm-hmm.
Calvin Fong (40:22.747)
yeah yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (40:23.406)
in Seoul, And their youth group has like 70,000 students in it. that was a different phenomenon. That was amazing. Yeah. I think part of it too is again, going back to the cultural values and even the worldviews. Yeah. Many of these other cultures, including Asian, don't have individualism and independence, right? part of their values. And so to send your kids away to a youth
Calvin Fong (40:27.882)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think part of it too is, again, going back to the cultural values and even the worldviews, many of these other cultures, including Asian, don't have individualism and independence as part of their values. And so to send your kids away to a youth group, to be formed,
Rob Chartrand (40:53.294)
to be formed in ways that you're not familiar with is probably not as high a big deal. They just don't see that as necessary. The group identity and the cultural identity is probably more important than being a kid becoming independent. That individual space formation, I mean, it's still formed in community, but the relationship with-
Calvin Fong (40:55.562)
in ways that you're not familiar with is probably not as high a big deal. They just don't see that as necessary. The group identity and the cultural identity is probably more important than letting a kid become independent. That individual faith formation, I mean, it's still formed in community, but the relationship with Christ is...
Rob Chartrand (41:22.734)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, like an honor shame culture, like, ancestry and family line and all of that has primacy more than, you know, the school down the street or the youth group. Yeah.
Calvin Fong (41:23.414)
Yeah, so the group identity thing is huge in most other cultures. I think individualism is much more Western.
Calvin Fong (41:41.784)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I get, I don't want to be critical parents. It's just that, you know, they're trying to navigate this for themselves. And yes, they want their kids to become Christ's Father, but how to get there is still very unknown to them.
Rob Chartrand (41:52.098)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess I'm just, I'm just noticing the difference, not, know, not whether it's better or worse, but it is different. so these young people are third culture and they're navigating both worlds and trying to live in between both of them. Yeah. I think this is where I would say we could learn some things as a North American church from these cultures. Yeah.
Calvin Fong (42:06.21)
Right.
Calvin Fong (42:11.414)
That's exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And this is where I would say we could learn some things as a North American church from these cultures. Like, I think there's something valuable about the group identity that is lacking in our often our Western churches. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (42:21.326)
there's something valuable about the group identity that is lacking in our often our western churches. Yeah absolutely yeah so what are some of the challenges then that new Canadian parents and our children experience generally from coming to Canada and living in Canada? You talked about this silent exodus already but any other challenges they might face?
Calvin Fong (42:44.311)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think there's just such a divide between the values of Western culture and a lot of the rest of the world. And a lot of these immigrants are coming from these other parts of the world. I mean, if they're coming from Europe or something like that, then the values are similar. But if they're coming from Africa, the Middle East, the East,
Rob Chartrand (42:49.292)
Yeah, I think there's just such a divide between the values of Western culture and a lot of the rest of the world. And a lot of these immigrants are coming from these other parts of the world. If they're coming from Europe or something like that, then the values are similar. Right. But if they're coming from Africa, the Middle East, the East, even some of the South American cultures.
Calvin Fong (43:16.8)
even some of the South American cultures, I think that there's huge gaps. And I think that trying to navigate that is huge. When, like for instance, we talked about adolescence and that natural bridge between being part of a family to being independent and often that space is filled with peer groups. That's a huge challenge, I think, for parents to understand or to figure out how to navigate.
Rob Chartrand (43:20.398)
there's huge gaps and I think that trying to navigate that is huge. like we talked about adolescence and that natural bridge between being part of a family to being independent and often that space is filled with peer groups. Yeah. That's a huge challenge I think for parents to understand or to figure out how to navigate. I think too.
Calvin Fong (43:45.464)
I think too that we live in a less connected society and so when immigrants come, they want to be connected not just with people of their own culture or ethnicity, but also with Canadians. But Canadians don't seem to value that as much as they do. I know several of the seminars and workshops that I've sat in regarding Muslim ministries, often the first thing they say is that these immigrants
Rob Chartrand (43:48.194)
we live in a less connected society and so when immigrants come they want to be connected not just with people of their own culture or ethnicity but also with Canadians but Canadians don't seem to value that as much as they do I know several of the seminars and workshops that I've sat in regarding Muslim ministries often the first thing they say is that these immigrants want first to be
Calvin Fong (44:15.352)
want first to be friends. It's that simple. And yet our scheduled lives are so busy, they're so selfish to an extent that we don't extend hospitality or invitation. We don't open our homes often and we don't make space for the connections that immigrants are looking for. So they end up feeling very isolated and
Rob Chartrand (44:18.082)
Yeah
Calvin Fong (44:42.444)
Now, yes, part of that is to draw to their own people group, which is fine. But then when you think about the next generation, how is that going to look? Yeah, I mentioned also too that the perception that...
Rob Chartrand (44:47.214)
But then when you think about the next generation, is that going to look? Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned also too that the perception that.
Calvin Fong (45:02.88)
Like sometimes kids see faith as their parents thing. And so it's not necessary for them. So I think that there's also some challenges there with trying to help homes build a Christian culture in a home, as opposed to just, that's what my parents do. So I remember one quote, and again, I'm not...
Rob Chartrand (45:04.078)
Sometimes kids see faith as their parents' thing. And so it's not necessary for them. So I think that there's also some challenges there with trying to help homes build a Christian culture in a home, as opposed to just, that's what my parents do. So I remember one quote.
Calvin Fong (45:30.424)
I might be off track on your question here a little bit, but I think one of the things that impacted me in terms of how we develop strategies to meet immigrant communities is I read, can't remember the quote, so I will say upfront it's a quote, it's not my own thought, but the statement was that often our North American evangelistic strategies present Christ as an answer
Rob Chartrand (45:31.714)
your question here a little bit. But I think one of the things that impacted me in terms of how we develop strategies to meet immigrant communities is I read, can't remember the quote thought, I will say up front it's a quote, it's not my own thought. But the statement was that often our North American evangelistic strategies present Christ as an answer.
Calvin Fong (45:59.564)
but to questions that ethnic communities aren't even asking. So we say that, Jesus will bring and then fill in the blank, but that's not what these ethnicities are asking. That's not the questions of life for them like it would be here in North America. Their understanding of the meaning of life or purpose in life is very different than the way we would interpret it or answer it. And so when we try to bring Jesus,
Rob Chartrand (46:00.168)
question that ethnic communities aren't even asking. So we say that, Jesus will bring and then fill in the blank, but that's not what these ethnicities are asking. That's not the questions of life for them, like it would be here in North America. Their understanding of the meaning of life or purpose in life is very different than the way we would interpret it or answer it. And so when we try to bring Jesus,
Calvin Fong (46:29.374)
into a context of which that's not what I'm asking at all. That's a challenge in terms of faith and faith development as well too.
Rob Chartrand (46:29.728)
into a context of which that's not what I'm asking at all. That's a challenge in terms of faith and the faith development as well too. Yeah. Yeah, that's really insightful. I mean, I think predominantly the Western vision is for self enlightenment, autonomy, know, self actualization, right? As opposed to say honor, shame or power and you know,
Calvin Fong (46:51.648)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (46:57.45)
overcoming spiritual powers, you know, every different cultural groups have different understandings of the world. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, know that growing up for me, the whole the whole thing about being independent was was not easy. My parents were pretty good in the sense that they knew they wanted my my sister, myself and my later my brother to become Canadian and to espouse Canadian values. I knew that there was always a
Calvin Fong (46:59.98)
Yes.
Calvin Fong (47:03.51)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I know that growing up for me, the whole thing about being independent was not easy. My parents were pretty good in the sense that they knew they wanted my sister, myself, and later my brother to become Canadian and to espouse Canadian values. But I knew that there was always that tension there. so one quick story here.
Rob Chartrand (47:27.342)
mentioned there. So one quick story here. We did a soccer camp for one
Calvin Fong (47:32.63)
We did a soccer camp for one of our, well, it's kind of like a partner church, but it's more of a ministry arm called the House for All Nations that serves the West End of Saskatoon. And the West End has a lot of low-income housing, a lot of immigrant communities start there because of the low cost of housing.
Rob Chartrand (47:41.226)
It's more of a ministry art.
and
Calvin Fong (47:59.316)
And so we were doing a free soccer camp. And at the end of the soccer camp, we did kind of typically what soccer camps do. We sent out a bunch of awards and they were for things, not like the best player or the most skilled, but you know, the most coachable or the best attitude or the best helper, you know, for everybody else. And so we had these little prizes.
Rob Chartrand (48:15.084)
Right
Calvin Fong (48:26.452)
And when it came to the very last day and we were presenting these awards, we read out the names and the kids were kind of sheepish coming forward to accept these awards. And we recognize that that's because they didn't want to be singled out as having done something better than someone else, even if it wasn't a skill level. And so we actually changed how we did that because we realized that in those cultures,
Rob Chartrand (48:44.584)
done something better than someone else. Yeah. Even if it wasn't a skill level. And so we actually changed how we did that because we realized that in those cultures, it was actually probably more shameful to pull them out of their group and give them something than it would have been just to say maybe do a large group gift or something like that or a large group prize or even a team prize would probably be more appropriate in that culture. Wow. And we would
Calvin Fong (48:54.25)
it was actually probably more shameful to pull them out of their group and give them something than it would have been just to say, maybe do a large group gift or something like that, or a large group prize or a team, even a team prize would probably be more appropriate in that culture.
Rob Chartrand (49:14.03)
just see that as normative for us, but in a communal or collectivist culture, I mean, that would just seem just really weird. And I think that's a good word for it. Yeah.
Calvin Fong (49:16.609)
Yeah.
Calvin Fong (49:21.516)
Yeah, I think that's a good word for it. I think it was just weird for them to think, why am I getting this? so.
Rob Chartrand (49:28.846)
Why do I need a trophy? Wow. You know, I was just harkening back to what you were saying about the longing for community and, and us having such busy schedules as Westerners and we're all over the map and but in other parts of the world where you're regularly bumping into each other all the time in community and how strange that is. We have our
Calvin Fong (49:31.416)
Yeah.
Calvin Fong (49:40.866)
Mm-hmm.
Calvin Fong (49:54.444)
Yeah. totally.
Rob Chartrand (49:58.33)
Nigerian friends who've joined our church this last year and a half and we get together with them maybe once every three or four months like we have them over and we and there's like there's about a dozen of them who are here at school in in Mushtra and actually we're having them over this this Sunday we're gonna get together and eat food and their kids can hang out in our hot tub in cold weather and and just yeah just have a great time and we always enjoy our time together but this year we
Calvin Fong (50:06.719)
Mmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (50:27.382)
I had to do a wedding on Thanksgiving weekend. And that would have been a natural time for us all to get together. And we just said, well, we just can't book it, that sort of thing. But we didn't say anything. And a couple weeks later, they said, we were surprised that we didn't get together for Thanksgiving dinner. And almost like a disappointment. that was weird. Why didn't we get together? But that was me realizing, okay, yeah. I mean, that's...
Calvin Fong (50:38.936)
Mmm.
Calvin Fong (50:47.725)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (50:56.846)
that would be normal expectation. You know, we're not related, but I mean, we're a community, we're a family, right? While they're here in Canada. And so just maybe a little bit more, I guess, self-aware of how Western my thinking is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I even think to...
Calvin Fong (51:02.645)
Yup. Yup. Yup.
Calvin Fong (51:13.56)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I even think to biblical times, I mean, the height of community or the expression of acceptance of others was to have a meal together. And I think even in ancient times, if warring parties came to a truce or a peace agreement, they would almost stamp it by having a meal together. And I think we've lost that. Well, Western culture doesn't seem to espouse that value.
Rob Chartrand (51:20.11)
Yeah, yeah That's right. Yeah
Calvin Fong (51:40.792)
And so it's at our own convenience, like you said. I certainly will say I'm caught up in that as well, too. I mean, I'm probably more Canadian than I am Chinese, culturally. But then this is one of those areas that I think the church, the North American church, can seize an opportunity to evolve and to reinvent some of their discipleship methodologies. Like, I think throughout scripture, it's clear that
Rob Chartrand (51:48.846)
probably more Canadian than I am Chinese culturally. then this is one of those areas that I think the church, the North American church can seize an opportunity to evolve and to reinvent some of their discipleship methodologies. Like I think throughout scripture it's clear that discipleship happens in the context of relationship with each other. And we've tended to move discipleship to
Calvin Fong (52:09.238)
Discipleship happens in the context of relationships with each other. And we've tended to move discipleship to the primacy is on teaching and knowledge. And so we go through curriculum and books and all that. And again, that's good. We need the teaching, but we need that life on life, that regular rhythm of life with others to help all of the things sink in and sometimes to even reveal more of that. And these other cultures,
Rob Chartrand (52:17.324)
The primacy is on teaching and knowledge. And so we go through curriculum and books and all that. And again, that's good. We need the teaching. But we need that life on life, that regular rhythm of life with others to help all of the things sink in and sometimes to even reveal more of that. And these other cultures.
Calvin Fong (52:39.266)
have that as it's baked in to who they are. So it's odd when they're not rubbing shoulders on a almost literally daily basis with others from the church community and the church family.
Rob Chartrand (52:41.39)
It's baked into who they are. Right. So it's odd when they're not rubbing shoulders on a almost literally daily basis with others from the church community and the church family. Would that make online church weird then as well for them? Because you're not rubbing shoulders with people necessarily.
Calvin Fong (53:01.054)
to ask that question directly to anyone, my guess is yes. Yeah, I know, so I don't know if this is a statement of intention on my previous church in Ottawa, the Chinese church, but they had online services during COVID, but they really cut back, like they just don't put the tech into it. The sound is often terrible. I don't think you'd even have video.
Rob Chartrand (53:01.358)
haven't asked that question directly to anyone. My guess is yes. I don't know this is a statement of intention on my previous church in Ottawa, the Chinese church, but they had online services during COVID, but they really cut back. They just don't put the tech into it. The sound is often terrible. I don't think you even have video.
Calvin Fong (53:29.368)
So I'm not sure if they're live streaming or not, but they've kind of pulled back on all of that stuff. And that may be intentional, I don't know, but it was interesting when I try to check their services out once in a while.
Rob Chartrand (53:31.022)
sure if they're live streaming or not, but they kind of pull back on all of that stuff. And that may be intentional. don't know. But it was interesting when I, you know, try to check their services out once in a while. But there's a high value on the embodied experience of the people of God together. Yeah. Yeah. So you, you guys have just done a, a collective meeting where you brought everyone together. And you said you do this.
Calvin Fong (53:47.03)
Yes, yeah.
Calvin Fong (53:56.172)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (53:58.414)
I think you and I were just talking just before the podcast was recording. You guys do this regularly or a couple times a year. Tell me about that. Yeah. So when these partner congregations started to develop and became part of who we are, part of our ministry, we felt that we needed to at least once in a while come together so that people could see the larger church family and see who really is part of
Calvin Fong (54:03.767)
Yes.
Yeah, so when these partner congregations started to develop and became part of who we are, part of our ministry, we felt that we needed to at least once in a while come together so that people could see the larger church family and see who really is part of what we call the Ebenezer family. And so this started, I said, just before COVID. Now part of it had to do with
Rob Chartrand (54:27.298)
what we call the Ebenezer family. And so this started, I said, just before COVID. Now part of it had to do with a building expansion project that we were doing. And so this was an opportunity to put the vision in front of everyone. And we were making pledges and trying to get a capital fund to do that project. But we found the value far more than just the raising of funds.
Calvin Fong (54:35.076)
a building expansion project that we were doing. And so this was an opportunity to put the vision in front of everyone. And we were making pledges and trying to get a capital fund to do that project. But we found the value far more than just the raising of funds, even just the, you're part of Edmund easier than that. It's actually become, I think, one of the ways we
Rob Chartrand (54:57.23)
even just the old your part it is your that it's actually become i think one of the ways we express who we are as a church and it doesn't matter that it's a lot of people or if it's a small number of but because we tend to meet on Sundays and even during the week away from each other this is one of the ways that we just remind ourselves that this is who we are and this is what God has blessed us with
Calvin Fong (55:03.774)
express who we are as a church. And it doesn't matter that it's a lot of people or if it's a small number of people, but because we tend to meet on Sundays and even during the week away from each other, this is one of the ways that we just remind ourselves that this is who we are and this is what God has blessed us with. And potentially then one of the ways we can continue to capitalize or steward what God has given us
Rob Chartrand (55:26.306)
potentially that one of the ways we can continue to capitalize or steward what God has given us in terms of ministry into the city and beyond. So what has been some of the fruit of you guys doing this? Yeah, so I would say one of the things is
Calvin Fong (55:33.024)
in terms of ministry into the city and beyond.
Calvin Fong (55:40.876)
Yeah, so I would say one of the things is that community aspect has been huge. The other thing too is we do get guests at these. Sometimes from whichever congregation or whichever group, they'll bring some guests and they'll be stunned at the number of people. And the number of people represented is a better way to put it, that are part of Ebenezer. And so that way we have a
Rob Chartrand (55:46.638)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (55:54.83)
you
Rob Chartrand (55:59.586)
people. And the number of people represented is a better way to put it. that are part of Ebenezer. And so that way we have
Calvin Fong (56:10.904)
chance to kind of share collectively a vision and collectively know that we're part of this bigger vision and not just everyone doing their own thing but once in a while it's nice to get together share some food together. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (56:13.71)
and collectively.
Hmm
Rob Chartrand (56:23.63)
Yeah, yeah, and that's big. That's huge. Yeah. Do you have it catered or is it potluck? Yeah.
Calvin Fong (56:33.176)
Okay, to be honest, I prefer it with potluck because sometimes the Canadian food is a little bland for my taste. So some of the other cultures bring great food, but no, we hold it at Prairie Land Park here in Saskatoon. We rent one of their big halls and the food is kind of a basic Canadian brunch. It's probably...
Rob Chartrand (56:41.518)
Canadian food is a little bland for my taste. Some of the other cultures bring great food but we hold it at Prairieland Park here in Saskatoon. We rent one of their big halls and the food is kind of a basic Canadian brunch. Yeah and it's too big. There's a point where you get too big and potlucks don't work anymore. You're blowing a lot of breakers with those...
Calvin Fong (57:02.442)
It is. No. Yeah. No.
Rob Chartrand (57:12.206)
portable hotpots and whatnot. So where would you say God is leading Ebenezer next? What have you and the staff and the elders been praying about?
Calvin Fong (57:13.334)
Yeah, yeah.
Calvin Fong (57:22.41)
Mm-hmm. Well, I think there's, I would say there's probably two main areas that I would share. The first one is I think we're trying to rethink and maybe evolve is the best word, our discipleship strategies, our discipleship methodology to ensure that there's a right balance between teaching and life.
Rob Chartrand (57:28.654)
would say there's probably two main areas.
Calvin Fong (57:51.416)
making sure community isn't just when your life group meets once every two weeks or whatever else, so that there's more of an integration of our lives with each other. That's just one piece of our discipleship evolution. We've often said around here, at least over the last three or four years, what would ministry look like if discipleship was at the center of everything we did? And so again, to...
Rob Chartrand (57:52.44)
making sure community isn't just when your life group meets once every two weeks or whatever else so that there's more of an integration of our lives with each other. Not just one piece of our discipleship evolution. We've often said around here, at least over the last three or four years, what would ministry look like if discipleship was at the center of everything we did? And so again to...
Calvin Fong (58:21.332)
oversimplify it a bit. We want to move away from what would be that attractional church thing. And not to say that Sunday shouldn't be attractive, but it's not about the, I don't know. And if I say something, I'm going to criticize other churches, what they do, but we're just trying to get back to the heart of a Sunday morning service, celebration, worship, hearing what God is doing.
Rob Chartrand (58:21.358)
Calvin Fong (58:48.94)
you know hearing from God through his word, and those kinds of things and that can take all kinds of different forms and you know, doesn't matter all the other pieces part of it the other part of our direction moving forward is I think to really Figure out what God is doing in us with these partner congregations I think of our our communities our neighborhoods and I particularly think of our high schools
Rob Chartrand (58:51.15)
is word and those kinds of things and that can take all kinds of different forms and you know it doesn't matter all the other pieces are the best the other part of our direction moving forward is I think to really
figure out what God is doing in us with these partner congregations. I think of our communities, our neighborhoods, and I particularly think of our high schools. And realize that they're becoming more more multicultural. And if Ebenezer is becoming more multicultural, not just in the English side, but with the other language groups and ethnic groups.
Calvin Fong (59:18.026)
and realize that they're becoming more more multicultural. And if Ebenezer is becoming more multicultural, not just in the English side, but with the other language groups and ethnic groups, I think we're well positioned then to really reach into the city and neighborhoods. And I don't mean from the base of our physical building, but from our people. So if we have these relationships with all of these other ethnicities and all these other cultures,
Rob Chartrand (59:31.618)
think we're well positioned to really reach into the city and neighborhoods. And I don't mean from the base of our physical building, but from our people. So if we have these relationships with all of these other ethnicities and all these other cultures, then you have an immediate way to be able to invite your neighbors, your coworkers. Like, I look at the high schools, I think every culture seems to be represented there. And if all of sudden, an Ebenezer youth group and-
Calvin Fong (59:47.704)
then you have an immediate way to be able to invite your neighbors, your coworkers. Like I look at the high schools and think every culture seems to be represented there. And if all of a sudden an Ebenezer youth group and Ebenezer youth small groups represent those cultures, well then it's an easy step in to build relationships with those around you who may not know Christ yet. So I can see Ebenezer really
Rob Chartrand (01:00:01.538)
Wow
Calvin Fong (01:00:15.64)
filling some of that space as we are intentional about seeking God and strategizing around this partner congregation, this multi-ethnic model of ministry.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:30.04)
Well, we'll continue praying with you guys towards those ends. Sounds exciting what God is stirring in your guys' hearts. Cal, I wonder if as we close our time off today, if you could give a final word of encouragement to our listeners, our ministry leaders across the country.
Calvin Fong (01:00:31.992)
Hmm.
Calvin Fong (01:00:46.646)
Hmm. I feel very insufficient to give advice to other ministry leaders, but I think I'm very thankful for my experience growing up, the good and the bad. I think being an ethnic minority myself and the doors of ministry that God has opened have allowed me to see some things probably at least a bit different than maybe others would.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:07.214)
Mm.
Calvin Fong (01:01:15.742)
So what I would say is, I think we are in a season right now where the Canadian church in particular is well positioned and well postured to make a huge difference in the world. That all these cultures are coming to Canada because it's seen as open and accepting comes with its challenges for sure.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:34.702)
resistance is futile simulation okay
Calvin Fong (01:01:43.336)
But there's a huge opportunity here, I think. And it's not just to like, what is the Star Trek, the Borg, it's like, what do they do? Yeah, the resistance. Yeah, it's assimilation. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah. I don't think we should look at it as assimilation that all these people comment and we're going to solve their problems and we're going to, but it's actually a, it's a real partnership where we learn from each other.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:05.506)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:09.118)
It's a real partnership where we learn from each other, where we have opportunity to take the best from their cultures and the values that they have. The fact that they do see the scripture differently than we do. Like even their understanding of how they read a passage, like you mentioned honor shame culture, power, fear. Like people who grew up in that culture read scripture through that lens, which is I think far more.
Calvin Fong (01:02:12.15)
where we have opportunity to take the best from their cultures and the values that they have. The fact that they do see the scripture differently than we do. Like even their understanding of how they read a passage, like you mentioned honor shame culture and power fear. Like people who grew up in that culture read scripture through that lens, which is I think far more accurate than the way we read it through an individualistic lens.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:37.998)
.
Calvin Fong (01:02:42.326)
And so I think there's a real opportunity for the church in North America in particular to evolve, to grow, and then to minister to the needs of these immigrant communities, especially in the area of offering friendship and community to them, which they are desperately seeking for. And then I think the ripple effect is that sometimes these cultures, they go back to their homes, their home countries.
Rob Chartrand (01:03:07.854)
to homes, to their home countries. And some of these are closed countries to the gospel. And yet, if they come here, I think of university students who come study here, if they come to faith and begin a journey of discipleship, then they go back to their home countries and they can begin to transform their countries from the inside out. And so we might not call that missions as such, but it is. It's missional in how we approach.
Calvin Fong (01:03:10.43)
And some of these are closed countries to the gospel. And yet, if they come here, I think of university students who come study here, if they come to faith and begin a journey of discipleship, then they go back to their home countries and they can begin to transform their countries from the inside out. And so we might not call that missions as such, but it is. It's missional in how we approach, approach, you know, how we minister to these different
Rob Chartrand (01:03:37.12)
approach how we minister to these different ethnic groups. So I would say to ministry leaders, if you notice that the color of your church is changing, embrace it. Seize the opportunity. Work with leaders and Christians of different ethnicities and ask questions like what can we learn? What do you see in us that you would say, hey, this would be very different from our home country?
Calvin Fong (01:03:40.248)
the different ethnic groups. So I would say to ministry leaders, if you've noticed that the color of your church is changing, embrace it. Seize the opportunity. Work with leaders and Christians of different ethnicities and ask questions like, what can we learn? What do you see in us that you would say, hey, this would be very different from our home country? And start to
Rob Chartrand (01:04:07.05)
and start to break down some of those things and say, we almost be more the church that Jesus sacrificed his life for and the mission that he gave us as a church? I think the growing change of our country can be a huge opportunity for that. And I think the church really should jump into the gaps that are there.
Calvin Fong (01:04:08.78)
break down some of those things and say, we almost be more the church that Jesus sacrificed his life for and the mission that he gave us as the church? I think the growing change of our, again, our country can be a huge opportunity for that. And I think the church really should jump into the gaps that are there.
Rob Chartrand (01:04:37.038)
Well, great word. Thank you, Cal. It's been a pleasure having you here on Church in the North. my pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. There's a lot of things on my heart and mind and this has given me a little bit of a forum to share some of those things and so I really appreciate you reaching out. Yeah, it always is great to have these conversations even just to reinforce our own values.
Calvin Fong (01:04:45.618)
my pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me. There's a lot of things on my heart and mind and that this has given me a little bit of a forum to share some of those things. And so I really appreciate you reaching out.
Rob Chartrand (01:05:05.932)
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Calvin Fong (01:05:06.06)
For sure. You're very welcome.