Jody Cross (00:00.546)
So I'm at this Keith Green Memorial Concert, and I stand up and I make a decision that I'm gonna fully surrender my life to Christ. I think I had been living a fully surrendered life, but this was a God moment in my life where the Lord was challenging me to, you know, Romans chapter 12, to lay it all down again. And particularly as a 20 year old, those are formative years when you're making your life decisions and you are saying, God, I'm serious.
I'm serious about the rest of my life. And so I stood up, actually had three non-Christian friends with me hanging out that night. And I'm not even sure what they thought of that. But so that was a really significant part in the call and the journey too, because I ended up, that was in February, by January of the next year, I ended up doing a discipleship training school at YWAM. And so that, so here, you know, I've got this campus ministry stuff going on. Now I'm doing a mission project with YWAM doing a DTS. And it was...
Rob Chartrand (00:48.342)
Okay, yeah, DTS.
Jody Cross (00:57.494)
was when I came back from YOM after having served in Costa Rica for seven weeks on an outreach, that God really put in my heart a desire to serve him full time. And I had not had the most compelling, let's just say, local church experience up to that point. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. And because I'd had front line, what I felt was front line evangelism and discipleship experience in these campus ministries, that's really where I wanted to be on the front lines.
Rob Chartrand (01:08.359)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:26.705)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (01:26.89)
So I have YWAM and I've got these power to change, the university stuff going on. So I come back and I finish my degree, I go to teachers college and I say, Lord, use my life in some ministry capacity. And at one point I had contemplated joining staff with power to change. But because my undergrad was in education and I had been to Costa Rica and learned Spanish, I thought, I think God's maybe gonna use me. You know, Latin America, I love...
Spanish-speaking people of Latin America. Maybe God will send me to be a missionary. So I ended up going to Urbana and was waiting for sort of the green light, like this is the door, enter here, go, the call of God. And so the Lord really surprised me because fast forward just a few months after the Urbana experience. Urbana, if people don't know, was a big intervarsity missions conference, 19,000 people.
Rob Chartrand (01:58.276)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (02:03.768)
Oh yeah.
Jody Cross (02:25.046)
the equivalent of kind of what passion is these days. And so what the Lord did, I graduated from Teachers College. I ended up, because I was going to a church for the last couple of years in Ottawa, in September of that year, August, September of that year, I had a chat with my lead pastor and he invited me to join staff. The youth and young adult guy that they had hired left, there was an opening and he invited me to join staff, which was a little...
you know, interesting because I've never been to Bible school. And a, well, it, it never, what was that again? I was a Methodist church, Wesleyan Methodist church. So I not been to Bible school and nor was this on my radar to, to work in the local church. You know, I'm heading, I'm heading sort of overseas somewhere. Anyway, so the Lord, which is kind of a theme of my life, you know, you have this trajectory and then God does something in.
Rob Chartrand (02:57.918)
Right. What denomination was the church? What was the denomination of your church? Okay. Yeah.
Jody Cross (03:23.082)
and changes your mind quickly, which is a beautiful thing. And so they opened up a position for me. They had a category in there, what's called the discipline, but it's kind of their rules and orders books. But they had a category called the lay assistant to the pastor, which was 30 hours a week. So you could be like Joe Blow off the street and still work for 30 hours in the church. And so I was supply teaching high school math two days a week, working at the church three days a week. And
found myself on staff as a graduate from my undergrad. So that's really where it began.
Rob Chartrand (04:01.31)
Wow, so I'm just tracking this and I'm like, you were in school for four years, you went on a YWAM trip. Like, did you student loan this thing or did you have a slush fund or, or did you just work really hard during the summers? How'd you get through all that?
Jody Cross (04:14.187)
Nope.
Jody Cross (04:17.75)
Well, no, I didn't, no, I lived at home for some of those years, but hey, you gotta remember, tuition in those years was $1,300, so, but I was still the prototypic starving student and lived on 99 cent frozen pizzas from the grocery store, but the Lord provided. And yet I should just also say that I was at that church, Sunnyside, for five years, which was just an amazing, amazing
Rob Chartrand (04:24.194)
I guess, that's right, the good old days.
Rob Chartrand (04:37.726)
It's your band and pop arts.
Jody Cross (04:47.406)
phase of my life because I am, I'm really disoriented at this point because I didn't expect to get there. And I'm looking around at this world called church ministry and, and thinking what is this and where do I fit? Where do I belong? What are my gifts? How does this work? And so, but they were so gracious. It was, it was actually the church in Ottawa where George Beverly Shay, his father was pastor and you know, George Beverly Shay, people don't know was the soloist with Billy Graham for many years.
Rob Chartrand (05:03.078)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (05:09.006)
Okay. Okay, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (05:15.966)
Graham.
Jody Cross (05:16.526)
George Beverly Shea, I think he lived till about 101 or something, something like that. So it was a great church and they just loved me and they gave me lots of room. So I was there, started my credentialing process, ended up in those years, starting to do my MDiv from doing distance ed, which I ended up, that's part of the story, ended up going to Tyndale after that. But one interesting little anecdote is that when my dad was little, in the north of
Rob Chartrand (05:32.766)
Hmm. Okay.
Jody Cross (05:46.05)
Quebec in Val d'Or, Rouen, Miranda. He got really sick and my grandmother, whose theology was maybe not exactly right on, but she loved God. She sort of did a Hannah deal with my dad who was really sick and she said, if you protect him and save his life, I'll make him a minister. You know, that doesn't sort of work that way, but there's biblical notions in there. And so my father actually did not, he survived and he lived to leave 74, but he didn't become a minister and he had quite a.
quit a journey in his own faith journey. But anyway, in my grandmother's later years, when she was in her eighties, she was suffering some dementia, I did say to her around the same time, I said, grandma, God has made me a minister. So it was interesting that what she had pledged to the Lord in my dad's life, somehow God had seemingly had his hand on my life to, I believe, to bless her desires, to dedicate both my dad and
and subsequently me too, to himself.
Rob Chartrand (06:47.71)
Wow. Those first years in ministry, did you have a good mentor in the church there? The senior pastor? Was he?
Jody Cross (06:57.214)
Yeah, he was exemplary and he ended up his last few years he spent in Winnipeg And I actually only had I had two years with him, but he and his wife really Discipled us Um, they married us dedicated our first child preached at my ordination So this guy was heavily invested. His name was ray ericson and a faithful man And then the next guy who was my lead for the next three years I was 24. He was 25 and we
Rob Chartrand (07:26.608)
Oh wow.
Jody Cross (07:27.25)
I shudder. And we had another guy on staff who was 22. So the three pastors were average age, whatever that is, 24.9. So this was a university church with three guys in their mid-20s. And we had a lot of fun and God was very faithful and we saw a lot of amazing things happen.
Rob Chartrand (07:48.142)
Yeah, wow. Yeah, my first five years in ministry, like I was a Christian for, I was a Christian for a few months before I went to Bible college. Went to Bible college for two years, got out. Sounds like I got out of jail. I got out and started working at a church and then going to school at the same time. And I had an extraordinary lead pastor and his wife, same thing, adopted myself and my wife. So I'd been a Christian for two years and I was a pastor. And I didn't grow up in the church, so I didn't know anything.
Jody Cross (08:17.612)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (08:17.678)
about how to run a youth group. I'd never been in a youth group. I had no idea. So those students, it was a great, some of the best years of ministry in my life, but those students were really like lab rats. I just was experimenting because I had no idea what I was doing, but the Lord was gracious as well in their lives, changing them.
Jody Cross (08:37.038)
It's a good thing you and I weren't in the same church in those years, because neither of us knew anything. Ha ha ha.
Rob Chartrand (08:41.09)
Yes. But we learned we learned by trial and error in many ways, or watching other people. So give us let's fill the gap between South Shore and this first church that you're in. Tell us a bit about your journey then from point A to point B.
Jody Cross (08:53.934)
Hmm. Yeah. So after the five years in Ottawa, we felt led of the Lord to move to Toronto. So I would finish my MDiv. So we did and then moving to Newmarket and did my MDiv full time for two years, graduated there and in Toronto at Tyndale. And that was, those were really great years because we had, we were
Rob Chartrand (09:11.878)
Was that where was that at?
Didn't do. Yeah.
Jody Cross (09:21.29)
in our first child and ended up having two more kids in those years. And I served at a church and I was involved with worship ministry. And this is where in those days, in fact, for 32 years, my main role was in worship ministry, worship leadership, worship pastor, and it was in those university years at that Sunnyside church in Ottawa and in this phase of my life that I was doing all sorts of worship training, learning how to do it, leaning it.
Rob Chartrand (09:37.511)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (09:50.902)
And that's a whole other story in terms of what it was to be a worship pastor in the late eighties, early nineties, when, you know, it was, it was a, it was a frontier really. Yeah. Been, been there.
Rob Chartrand (09:55.434)
Oh yeah, yeah. Well, we could get into that a little bit because the worship wars, yeah. Yeah. Learning to clap on one and three or two and four instead of one and three and what do you do with the organ and should we have guitars and drums on the stage? Yeah. So I, you know, you and I were chatting about this earlier on before the podcast recorded, but you asked if I'd been involved in worship. So I did a short stint for a year and a half as a worship and small groups pastor.
Jody Cross (10:11.77)
Uh huh. Uh huh.
Rob Chartrand (10:23.998)
it was in the middle of the worship wars and it nearly killed me. It was just so challenging to lead. Yeah, it was challenging for you.
Jody Cross (10:28.278)
Mm.
Jody Cross (10:33.162)
Yeah. And well, you know, that first church, as I said, how gracious they were. I mean, I, I'm sure if I could chronicle all the mistakes I made, it would fill a book. But I remember there was this one lady, her name was Mary Moffat. She was a sweet, sweet lady, probably in her late seventies or early eighties. And, and I was concerned because this had been a relatively traditional church, piano and organ. And here comes this acoustic guitar guy. And then there's a bass on the platform. And then there's a guy who parks his drums.
Rob Chartrand (10:56.892)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (11:03.254)
beside the organ, and this church is having to figure this all out. And I was trying to be sensitive to the seniors of which there were a number in the church. And I went to Mary one day, she was a leader in the church. And I just said, Mary, what, what can I do to help you in your worship? And really what I was saying is, you know, how are, how are people in your demographic receiving this? And she was just beautiful and profound. And she said, uh, Jodie, if I come to worship, meaning if I come with the intent to worship, I will worship.
And that was the sum total of her response to me. So basically just keep doing what you're doing and we will worship. And so there was so much freedom given, but those were exciting years. They were cutting edge years. We were singing songs like, Refiners, Fire, and Shine Jesus Shine. And I lift my eyes up, some of that early Brian Dirksen stuff. And I mean, they were...
Rob Chartrand (11:35.71)
That's great.
Rob Chartrand (11:53.114)
Wow, shine Jesus, shine.
Rob Chartrand (11:58.115)
Open the eyes in my heart.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Jody Cross (12:03.522)
They were phenomenal years. And I had actually, with YWAM, had this profound experience with the Lord with kind of two recycled hippies who had long hair and two acoustic guitars, and we would be singing and worshiping together. And the Lord met me with his presence and his power. There was no big bands, just a couple of acoustic guitars and lots of 20-year-olds that loved Jesus. So I was really struck with how
how God's presence is life-changing and how we draw near and enjoy Him. But so from Newmarket anyway, the did my MDiv was working at a church and then we got called to Newmarket to Marshville Baptist Church, which is now called Compass, which we had our fourth child. You know anything about Compass?
Rob Chartrand (12:49.362)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (12:52.766)
Compass, yeah, I think when I was out pastoring in Unionville, they hosted a conference and I went and they had the Excalibur conferences, I think with Dave Overholt, I think they used to host them there. Yeah, so I'd gone there for a few times.
Jody Cross (13:04.27)
Okay, yeah.
Jody Cross (13:08.626)
And as I look back at the journey, as you said, this is nonlinear and as you jump from Ottawa to, okay, let's go to Newmarket, because there's a place to live and there's a church there and because of that church, and I think people, as you think about your own stories, that God puts you in a place that feels odd, but that place is going to be significant because something is gonna happen there, it's gonna lead you to the next thing. And so from Orangeville, I met a guy who was planting a church.
Rob Chartrand (13:25.875)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (13:37.87)
out of Chicago and I didn't know this guy. His name was Todd and he heard of me and found me and I had been recording some CDs and got ahold of one of my CDs and said I'm planting a church called Harvest Bible Chapel in Barrie, Ontario. It's like, what's Barrie? Wasn't really that far, but I didn't know much about Barrie.
Rob Chartrand (13:39.434)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (13:54.614)
Wow. So, so Harvest Bible Chapel. I don't think any of our listeners have heard of that. What is Harvest Bible Chapel? Wow.
Jody Cross (14:02.326)
I was Bible Chapel out of Chicago, yes. I served there for 10 years. So I ended up, Todd ended up finding me and said, hey, I'm gonna plant this church. Do you wanna come along for the ride? So we had good years at Orangeville and our fourth child was born when we were there. So that's it, we have four kids. And I'm still, I was, yeah, worship in small groups. But I'm still learning.
Rob Chartrand (14:24.471)
Were you doing worship there? Is that your big work? Yeah, okay. Okay.
Jody Cross (14:31.714)
Like at this point, it's about 10 years into my ministry and I'm still learning, still growing, which I think I would still say, I'm still learning, still growing. And then made the jump. I had a number of, in those years, I had a number of opportunities. Like in six weeks, I had about five phone calls saying, wanna do this, wanna come and join us in there. And so I knew that God was stirring us up. So God was preparing us for a change.
Rob Chartrand (14:42.683)
Yeah, yeah.
Jody Cross (15:00.342)
So we ended up moving to Berry and planting harvest, which I was the associate pastor and the worship leader and was there on staff for nine years. And so those were some wonderful years in so many ways. And we've actually lived in the house that we moved to 22 years ago when we were at harvest. Although since then I've been in two other churches. So it's non-linear again.
Rob Chartrand (15:23.082)
Oh.
It's like a mission center for you. Oh, you just. Yeah.
Jody Cross (15:27.158)
It was a mission center, yeah. So from Harvest, we did my doctorate in ministry, so finished my MDiv, did a dean man at Gordon Conwell in writing on Christian leadership, particularly in the area of the worship pastor as shepherd. That was my topic, my dissertation topic, looking at David. And so out of that, we ended up moving to a church in Irelia called First Baptist Church, which is now Cornerstone under Paul Carter.
Rob Chartrand (15:43.479)
Mm.
Jody Cross (15:56.014)
who has a ministry called Into the Word, and had 10 amazing years in Aurelia. But I stayed in the house because my wife was working out of the home teaching piano, and my kids were all finishing their junior high and senior high years here. And so I said, I'll just commute up the highway. It wasn't very far, it was only 30 minutes. And that is a short, that's like going down the block in Toronto, I think, but it was up a nice highway drive for me, it was very enjoyable for much of the time.
Rob Chartrand (16:09.178)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (16:14.455)
Oh, that's a short Toronto commute.
Rob Chartrand (16:20.058)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (16:25.394)
And probably those were some of my most growing years personally and as a leader. And that was from 2010 to 2020. And so about a year before that came to an end, there was a stirring in me feeling like, I think that's got something different. The, the church was healthy. I was enjoying it. And one of the things that, that I really loved about that chapter was that I was the leadership development pastor. And
Rob Chartrand (16:30.642)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (16:52.822)
What that meant was I was overseeing the interns. And so we had 29 interns in 10 years, different men and women, young men and women who spent summers with us or school year internships. And I absolutely loved that. And so much fruit, so many good times. But God was stirring us up and saying, I think there's something, there's something coming. And so I wasn't sure about what that was. And that led us to where I am now, at SoShore.
Rob Chartrand (16:57.147)
Wow. Okay.
Rob Chartrand (17:21.778)
So what was the date when you started at South Shore?
Jody Cross (17:25.534)
Thanksgiving 2020, there was this thing, I don't know if you remember it, it was this thing we went through called COVID. Yeah, it was right in the middle of that. Remember, I don't know if you remember that thing. Yeah. Everybody has had their.
Rob Chartrand (17:30.758)
Yeah, I heard people were shuttered in their houses and so it wasn't it wasn't a COVID move though because God was stirring your heart well before that.
Jody Cross (17:39.146)
No. Yeah, no, no. In fact, COVID was probably the worst time in the planet to do anything, particularly at the church move.
Rob Chartrand (17:45.846)
Yeah. And start something new in the middle of COVID. Yeah.
Jody Cross (17:51.594)
Well, and you could take new and capitalize it and highlight it. Yeah, it was new to the nth degree.
Rob Chartrand (17:58.102)
Yeah, yeah, totally. So how did that call come about? Like, how did you end up at South Shore? I mean, you didn't just jump ship, there must have been some signs or some events happening in your life that kind of confirmed and affirmed that call.
Jody Cross (18:06.796)
No.
Jody Cross (18:13.662)
Yeah, angel visitations and sky writing. Yeah, alphabet soup that says South Shore. Well, you know, again, one of the beauties of getting old is that you do begin to be able to look back and have more years behind you that I can see now how God was orchestrating it. So some of the people that I had served with and served and led at Harvest ended up
Rob Chartrand (18:15.962)
Oh, scrolls that land in your lap, bitter and sweet.
Jody Cross (18:43.358)
planting a new church in Barrie. So as this church got started back in 2012, I was cheering them on from a distance because I'm up the highway and my friends are there and there's a new work of God going on. And as you know, I would consult with them and help them in various issues that they asked me for help with. And then as the second of their pastors at that point came to town, he just lived down the road from me. So I decided to call him up and pray for him and walk with them and become friends.
Rob Chartrand (18:45.88)
Oh, great.
Jody Cross (19:13.054)
And we established a really good relationship. So here we are doing ministry in different churches and he's my friend. So that's going fine and I'm doing my thing and he's doing his thing. I didn't know tons about them, but appreciated them from a distance. So then in July of 2019, we head down to the waterfront in Berry, if anybody's been to Berry, you have a nice beach and a bay and it's kind of the most beautiful waterfront in Central Ontario. So we're hanging out.
down there going for a walk. And he tells me out of the blue that he thinks God's calling him to go to Dubai. And he unpacks that story about this call. And he and his wife are being challenged to basically leave Barry, leave the church and go and teach at a seminary there. And I'm just a hundred percent thrilled for him. And you can see, man, this is just like stirring your soul. I'm pumped. But actually that wasn't the purpose of his conversation with me. He wasn't there to tell me about himself. He was there to say in the next breath, how about you?
Rob Chartrand (20:00.039)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (20:12.958)
I think you should be the next pastor of South Shore. So I was pretty blindsided. It was not on my radar at all. And so, you know, at this point I'm 31 years as an associate as a worship pastor. And so now he's putting this thing in front of me, the desire to preach and to lead a ministry. And it really was not on my radar. And I politely said thank you. And wow, it's an honor to be asked, but.
but no thank you, let's continue to talk about Dubai and how's it gonna happen, you know, it's like, whatever, let's move on. And so I just dismissed it and really didn't think much of it. And then in December, actually so, but five months later, he and his wife had my wife, Alex and I over to their house. And it was a coffee time, but I knew what the coffee was gonna be about. It was gonna be a pitch. And they did a great job pitching it again. And-
Rob Chartrand (20:46.039)
Okay. Yeah.
Jody Cross (21:12.47)
You know, we were sort of reluctant to even go because we thought, you know, don't want to waste their time and don't want to give them any hope. So, listened again. And he talked about the church and what he thought God was going to do. And so politely again, we said, no thanks. And the one interesting thing was we got to the car after hearing it. And by the way, I don't think we were, like we weren't, we didn't have, you know, no up to the Lord, like God, we will do this, but we won't do that. We'll go here, but we won't go there.
This is the period when we were being stirred. And we were prepared to throw it all to the wind and say, God, wherever, whatever, we're ready to do it. So it wasn't like we were saying no to the Lord in this, but just didn't feel right, didn't feel like this was what God wanted us. So we got to the car and my wife said to me, what do you think? And I said, it was intriguing. About two weeks later, I sat down with one of my mentors over coffee and I said, Mark, this...
This crazy thing is happening with this church. They're sort of knocking on my door and asking me to be part of their church as lead. And the first words out of his mouth was, he said, Jody, if something sounds intriguing, follow it and see where the Holy Spirit will lead. So he uses the same word. I'm like, hmm, okay. So that's December. And then February, the chairman of the board calls me to go for coffee yet again. So this is the third time now.
Rob Chartrand (22:26.631)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (22:40.426)
and he sits down and he pitches it and he gives me the reasons why he thinks that I'm the guy that should go. And I'm gonna sound like Thomas here, but or Moses or some reluctant prophet. And I gave him about five reasons why I wasn't the guy for the job. And I actually said, but I have two guys that I know who I think would really be great candidates. So I told them no for the third time. And that should have been, really should have been the end of the story. So fast forward.
to June, so now we're almost a year later, and I have my annual review at the church in Orillia, at Cornerstone. And at the end of my review, which was a good review, I wasn't getting fired or anything, they were happy and I was happy. But I just said to our lead pastor, Paul, I said, I think God's stirring something in me that I would really like you to pray with me about and discern with me about. I don't know what it is, I don't know what it looks like, but I think the Lord's moving me on. And I went home from that meeting, and that was really a turn of a corner.
So I called up the lead pastor at South Shore and I said, I don't think I've really given you a fair hearing on what exactly it is that you're looking for and what the vision of the church is. So this thing just happened. I told my lead pastor that I'm in process of something. Why don't I get together with you and why don't you talk to me? So a couple of the guys from the church came and as they sat in my living room with my wife and I, they talked about the church and the vision and what it was that they were looking for.
Rob Chartrand (23:44.967)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (24:06.706)
And as they laid out the role and the kind of heart and qualifications and focus of ministry that they were looking for, it had my name all over it. And it wasn't that they had pitched that for me, but what they felt the church needed and where the Lord wanted the church to go had been written in absence of me, but they found that I was the guy they thought could help that. And so after that, then I said, let's keep walking. And the search committee interviewed me.
Rob Chartrand (24:15.731)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (24:30.42)
Mm-mm.
Jody Cross (24:36.746)
On July 26 of 2020, one year to the date of that big walk at the waterfront, um, we said, uh, we said yes. And I was candidating and, uh, the vote went through. And so I started on Thanksgiving of 2020 and have been there for three and a half years.
Rob Chartrand (24:53.526)
Okay, wow. So you're candidating at a time where people are wearing masks and
Jody Cross (25:01.67)
Well yeah, we did outdoor stuff, so there was maskless and my living room was fine, so there was no masks in my living room.
Rob Chartrand (25:07.598)
Yeah, at least it was a summertime too. So things had probably opened up a little bit during that time, but maybe not in your area. Uh, depends on which province you're in. So, uh, okay. So I don't know. This is a, this is a church plant that was by then what, eight years old, 10 years old. Um, yeah. Yeah.
Jody Cross (25:24.01)
Yeah, I was about eight years old. Yeah, it had two pastors. The first guy there for four years, his name was Jason, he moved back to the States and Adam moved to Dubai. So I got there at the eight year mark in COVID. And so it was, you know, it was not a fully functioning all, you know, all hands on deck, all eight cylinders church. It was like every church, it was trying to figure things out and dealing with all of the issues of those who had various positions and.
Rob Chartrand (25:29.126)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (25:34.588)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (25:53.294)
And are you guys, were you guys a pop-up church or were you in a rented space?
Jody Cross (25:57.518)
We are in rented space that was our own full rental. So we weren't doing setup in Teardown.
Rob Chartrand (26:02.03)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. So, I mean, even that, I mean, that's a couple of leaders in 10 years in a church plant. So there's a lot of new happening there. And then you hit a pandemic and it's new again. Like, yeah, definitely. So let's talk a little bit about your role at the church and your, your preaching and your leading and is there is there a staff team?
Jody Cross (26:15.778)
Hmm, no, no.
Jody Cross (26:29.95)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so it was a small church. We're now at about 160 people. But when I got there, it was functionally about 70 people. And so I was the only staff member. And one of the things that attracted me to the church was the polity of plurality of eldership. So I wasn't going to be the guy that had to do all the shepherding, make all the decisions. The the elders and I were co-shepherding together.
Rob Chartrand (26:39.005)
Wow.
Mm.
Rob Chartrand (26:52.839)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (26:58.342)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Jody Cross (26:58.626)
Co-pastoring as it were and so I that was very attractive to me and as you just said a second ago They wanted me both to preach and to lead worship not simultaneously all the time but to have a balance and so functionally where that has shaken out to is I preach two out of three weeks, I lead worship one out of three and And so that's just a beautiful thing that the Lord is gracious to allow me to continue to use my gifting in the area of worship and also then to
Rob Chartrand (27:24.476)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (27:28.034)
hone this new skill of communicating the gospel and preaching. And so yeah, that's my role as lead pastor. And, uh, but now we have an associate who's on staff with us, just a great guy. His name is Peter and, um, we have an admin and stuff. So, and just a great, great church to lead.
Rob Chartrand (27:31.473)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (27:43.43)
Yeah. So how did the pandemic affect that church? I mean, did they have, did they experience the great shuffle of saints that a number of other churches experienced or a lot of new family come and go? Yeah.
Jody Cross (27:56.342)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did. We had a we had a shuffling out There wasn't a there wasn't a lot of shuffling in those days because I think people were People were more reticent to come in but people who had differing opinions. I think were quick to leave and to find something they were more comfortable with in terms of their Church's response to government authorities and that type of thing. So yeah, we did we did lose quite a few people and there was
Rob Chartrand (28:08.732)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (28:23.446)
you know, there was those challenging conversations in those years and, uh, figuring out how to do exits graciously and honestly and truthfully. And so there was some of that stuff. So that was really, you know, week two, week one is preach your first message. Message in week two is let's deal with the fallout from COVID and which, which functionally was that fall and that winter and that spring of 2021. Uh, so.
Rob Chartrand (28:37.183)
Okay.
Jody Cross (28:51.498)
So there was a lot of challenges in a cornerstone up in Arilia. I had already been through six or seven months of it, uh, with lockdowns and all that stuff. So we had done the, you know, the, the prerecorded preaching and worship leading and all of that stuff. And, and, you know, so pivoting as that word is triggering to people, I like to call it flexing, but pivoting and pivoting, pivoting is such a trigger word. Anyway, all that to say flexing was fine. I'm a, I'm a flex kind of guy. So
Rob Chartrand (28:58.704)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (29:07.196)
Mm.
Rob Chartrand (29:11.87)
Thanks for watching!
Jody Cross (29:19.702)
That didn't bother me, it stressed me out. But the Lord, since when we got to 2021, because we were allowed to meet outside and we are in a commercial industrial area, Sundays there's nobody around and we have this massive parking lot. So we just did a lawn chair church for 21 weeks. And so we didn't have to wear masks and we could have as many people as we could fill in that place.
Rob Chartrand (29:42.202)
Yeah, that's great. Except in the middle of winter, I guess you can't really pull it off.
Jody Cross (29:47.126)
Well, we stopped at Thanksgiving of 2021, not because it had rained. So the Lord actually did this miracle that we were outside on Sundays without rain for 21 weeks, which statistically I'm not sure the odds of that, but we see it as miraculous, but we just went inside because it started to get cold in Ontario. So we had to go back inside. But since, since then, uh, really the last two years, the Lord has been very gracious in his favor has been upon us. The church, um,
Rob Chartrand (29:49.595)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (30:04.602)
Right. Yeah.
Jody Cross (30:16.574)
retained its health, its stride, and has grown in ways that probably like many churches, the church looks different, its identity is different, its feel is different, just because the Lord has brought new people and is doing a new work. So.
Rob Chartrand (30:31.258)
Yeah, well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about one of the things that I know that God is doing in your church and that's with your man, with your man's ministry. So let's get right into that. Tell us about what God has been doing in the lives of the men in your church and maybe how that got started.
Jody Cross (30:47.794)
Mm-hmm. The previous pastor had done a ministry called Frontline for men, specifically investing in them, probably eight or nine men or something. And I had been part of that on the, I think I was part of the last session just before he left and I took over. So that was probably a year and a half or two years. Well, it was two years since we did anything. So COVID happened, that ministry ended.
Rob Chartrand (30:53.502)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (31:16.982)
just kind of getting my feet on the ground and thinking, okay, good. We can, we can start launching some of these ministries again, starting them up and dusting them off. I said, we really haven't done much to invest in the lives of men. We're keeping the lights on, but we need to spend some time encouraging, strengthening, discipling men. So in November of 2022, as we were praying about it, the Lord gave us this concept of this word, pursuit. And so launched a discipleship ministry for men called pursuit. And that comes out of,
2nd Timothy 2 22, which is just a fantastic verse. It says, so flee youthful passions, pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. That's where the idea of pursuing is, pursuing Christ and pursuing his will for our lives. So I started something, I created a ministry that ended up to be in the first chapter, 16 weeks long, reading two books, memorizing a bunch of scripture, being an accountability group. So the bar
actually we set the bar really, really high and called the men of the church to come to this. And I think we had 25 or 26 guys.
Rob Chartrand (32:23.538)
Wow, that's a that's a large percentage for your church.
Jody Cross (32:26.11)
It was a large percentage of our church and I didn't promise, you know, when he froze, I just said, come, come and jump in, come to bootcamp. And, and so many men just said, um, I need this. I've never been, I've never done anything like this. I've God wants me to be here. Or some people said, I don't want to be here, but I know I need to be here. And, and this really was, it wasn't because I had dreamed up the best program. I really do believe it was a sovereign work of God that was tapping people and grabbing them and compelling them.
to get serious about their walk with the Lord. And again, this is coming out of COVID, so there's isolation in the background and there's maybe staleness and stagnancy. And God was gracious just to remind this group of men that come out of isolation, come out of your stagnancy, come in and step up. And so we had a wonderful winter of 2023, and then started another session in the fall of 2023 and saw an extra number of guys come.
Really what it was, I believe it was culture shaping, creating culture defining for the hearts of these men that were getting serious about the word, getting serious about their pursuit of Christ, getting serious about sin, about honesty, about transparency, about confession, about cannabillity groups, and about leading well and loving well in their homes and leading in their church. And so that's really ongoing now. And I'm...
It's wonderful to sow the seeds and then to watch a few months later what God is doing in the lives of men and all of the spin-offs of that and the fruit of that. And so it's very exciting and we're not finished yet. My vision for Pursuit is it'll be four levels, four levels of growth and discipleship. The first one being spiritual disciplines, your walk with the Lord, spiritual leadership level two.
Rob Chartrand (34:25.491)
Hm hm.
Jody Cross (34:25.75)
which is a man's role in the home, in the church and the workplace. Third level will be just evangelism and understanding doctrine. And a fourth level will be like leadership, leadership specific training for eldership and small group leadership and that type of thing. So that's where we see it going. And it's ongoing as I speak.
Rob Chartrand (34:29.167)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (34:44.394)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. So how is it bearing fruit? I mean, in the lives of the men, in the way it affects your church overall?
Jody Cross (34:56.842)
Yeah, so relationships, first of all, guys are actually in relationship with one another and hungry for accountability hungry for friendship with other guys. There was some young guys in their 20s that decided to do a seven o'clock Bible study after Pursuit was over, they just bonded together and they said we need to do that there's some guys that are doing accountability for purity issues. There's other guys who are doing one on one accountability for purity. There's some guys who
who said, our physical health is not strong. We haven't been self-controlled and self-disciplined. So there's a bunch of guys that signed up for a gym membership and they're keeping each other accountable for that. There's groups that are on WhatsApp praying for each other. And some of these guys now, in terms of the fruit, are stepping up into eldership and they've just risen up. And so...
I think the men, there's a new sense of being who God called them to be, humbly, and pursuing Christ, but also pursuing God's will for their lives. Those are the kind of things we're seeing in the early months.
Rob Chartrand (36:12.382)
Well, I think the question top of mind is, well, why men? I mean, why do you think men's ministry matters? Why is that important to you and to the church?
Jody Cross (36:23.01)
Mm-hmm, yeah. Well, we do a search in the New Testament of what it says about men, and there's lots of calls and lots of challenges for men to be godly. I mean, everybody to be godly for sure, but the New Testament speaks to men, and I think of passages like Ephesians 5 and then to Ephesians 6 where God calls the man to a high standard of Christ-like love and leadership.
Rob Chartrand (36:37.532)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (36:51.106)
and to shepherd his home, shepherd his children to love and lead and serve his wife. So lots of biblical injunctions and commands. And I think that it's easy for men to hide. It's easy for men to be hiding in their work, letting mom, wife, their wives take the lead and the homes are in the church and they just kind of come. And it's been my experience that a lot of men carry a lot of shame, struggle with a lot of sin, particularly.
Rob Chartrand (37:06.396)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (37:18.482)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (37:20.778)
in the issues of purity. And those things can be like bungee cords that hold you back from following Christ fully and being all that God wants us to be and to do. And so we wanted to take seriously the call as leaders to come alongside these men and to love them and to challenge them, to teach them, and to support them in being honest about where they struggle and to give them this high bar.
Titus chapter two says that the grace of God has appeared teaching us to say no to ungodliness and to say yes to righteousness. And so we together as men were saying, hey, we wanna say no to ungodliness and to things that are keeping us from back from serving the Lord and being who he made us to be and say yes to godliness and to righteousness. And let's do that together. And let's help each other so that in our homes we can love well and lead well in our church, we can be effective for the kingdom.
and in our workplaces that our lights can shine brightly. So those are some things. And we have so many wonderful ladies in our church who we have a great ministry to women called T2, Titus II, older women investing in younger women and the leadership. We're encouraging our women and there's women's conferences. And the women actually had a conference called Flourish that they were equipping and training and doing Bible studies. So ladies do that.
well, naturally anyway. And so that was really a big part of the church. But the aspect of that stuff for guys just wasn't happening. And so this was really filling a vacuum. And so, yeah, we've got men and women who are being trained and discipled. And it's pretty exciting to see.
Rob Chartrand (38:51.995)
Right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (39:12.262)
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I mean, my experience and I think I read the stats on it, but most middle aged men don't have friends, like they're very alone. So I think of like bowling for Columbine and how more and more people culturally are moving away from community and friendship and whatnot. But for men in particular, it's even worse. So I mean, I try and encourage young men to say to them, listen, you need to start investing in deep relationships now.
Jody Cross (39:41.076)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (39:41.362)
By the time you get to be my age, it gets harder and harder to do. Um, and I think if we are not proactive in establishing within our churches, some way to get men into ministry or get men into community, um, they're not going to just do it naturally. It's not their natural inclination.
Jody Cross (40:00.746)
No, no. And you know, one of the fruits of COVID that I did was because there was isolation, I had some guys that I had known for years. And so I said to them, Hey, let's, let's talk and pray every two weeks. So one guy's in Phoenix, Arizona, one guy's in Ottawa, and one guy's in Orillia. And these are buddies that I'd had from years gone by. And so even this morning, I was on a one hour walk and prayer time with my friend in Phoenix.
And those relationships in that level, doing exactly what you're saying, friendship, asking the hard questions, praying in tears, hearing each other's struggles and burdens and celebrating each other's successes and joys and just talking about what God is doing, that stuff is still persistent. And so those are the kind of things that we are encouraging when you get men together, friendships form around Christ and around the word and around the pursuit of him. And that stuff bears fruit.
Rob Chartrand (40:58.055)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (40:58.322)
in lots of ways and I think as well for sure for sure for sure as a man's heart And relationship with christ and health grows the local church is going to become healthier in so many ways and You know, and so we're actually in a preaching series right now called purposeful church we're preaching for nine weeks through our core values and as people get a sense of their own personal identity in christ and then understand the identity of the local
Rob Chartrand (41:12.335)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (41:27.978)
church is to be a God's Word honoring and Christ exalting, worshiping, praying, united people with people who are strong in their faith individually. The church is going to have strength. And so I think it is one of the ways that the Lord is building some concrete rebar, concrete and rebar into the foundation of the church. Because anything that gets built
on the foundation needs to have a strong base. So strong families, strong women, strong men, strong kids. And you know, we're not a perfect church, but we're really seeing that the Lord is doing a deep and significant work.
Rob Chartrand (42:10.062)
Yeah. Wow. That's great. Um, I should make a correction. I think I said bowling for Columbine, but what I meant was bowling alone by Robert Putman. They're very, very different things.
Jody Cross (42:21.51)
Bowling. Yeah, bowling alone doesn't sound very fun to begin with. Triathlon? Okay, that's an alone sport, but not bowling. You need to say who's got the better score for when you're bowling.
Rob Chartrand (42:25.479)
No, no.
Rob Chartrand (42:30.206)
That's right. That's like ping pong. You need a ping and a pong. You can't just do it by yourself. So, some people might say, they're a little bit concerned that this push towards men's ministry in the church might be maybe a little bit misogynistic or, if people have seen that here, the rise and fall of Mars Hill, what not, they're concerned that it's kind of leaning into that swagger and that posture.
of misogyny. How would you respond to that for your church? Are you ignoring the women? Obviously, you've said you've got a women's ministry that's going on. Yeah.
Jody Cross (43:04.206)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (43:07.362)
No, yeah, no. No, and we're not ignoring the women and we love them and honor them. And the testimonies that I hear from the women of both who are single and the wives of the men in our church are that they're loving what God is doing in the lives of the men in the church and how the men are leading and loving and serving. And there's a sense of they feel protected. So rather than feeling dominated or neglected or misused.
Rob Chartrand (43:35.131)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (43:36.326)
And depending on what Bible you're reading, again, as I said earlier, this call in Ephesians chapter five is for men to be Christ-like. So if men's discipleship is proper, it's not rah-rah and boisterous and loud, but it's acting like men do everything in love. It's living and loving like Christ loved, being transformed by him from the inside out.
that will result in women being honored and loved and cherished and protected and Served and so that's the angle that's the angle We come at it from a place of humility and servant servanthood But but also bold and courageous leadership as well, you know I think I think men do women a far greater disservice by shrinking back and by not being courageous and And flirting with sin and not being serious about Christ in their walk
Rob Chartrand (44:18.49)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (44:23.196)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (44:36.182)
That's far more of a disservice that it's neglect. So I hope that it'll bear out that the women in our church will feel very honored and cherished and loved. And I think they do.
Rob Chartrand (44:41.383)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (44:49.518)
Yeah. Well, and I think there's a push in our culture to blend the distinctions between men and women. And I mean, just for our listeners who are listening in, I mean, theologically, Jodi you and I do have different theological perspectives. Like you are more of a complimentarian side. I'm more on egalitarian side. And some of our listeners are on either side of that in this matter. But as an egalitarian, I'm like,
you still have to invest in the men in your church. Like there's a distinction. They're uniquely designed in each theological position. And so I know in our church, when I planted Crosspoint in 2010, one of the first things we did was we said, we gotta focus on the men. Get the men, get the men, get the men, is what we had heard as a mantra in our church planting conferences. Because I mean, the research demonstrates, like if men are leading in taking their family for church,
to church, for example, there's a much higher percentage chance that the children will follow than if the women is. And that's not in any way to minimize the role of the mothers in the church, but it's just, it's statistically true. Like men, there is something to that men father role in leading the family that's really significant and important. And so for us, we said, yeah, we have to prioritize. How do we disciple men? How do we grow men? That's really, really important.
And that's not at the expense of women, because we also did the same for women in church, but men don't do it naturally. And so we felt like we had to put the foot on the gas with a lead brick sometimes to get met out in our ministry. So yeah, is that fair to talk about, you know, the different theological perspectives?
Jody Cross (46:23.084)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (46:26.975)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (46:36.614)
Absolutely, absolutely it is. And you know, biblically, just read your Bible. As you said, God calls men to be who they're created to be as men and God calls women to be who they're created to be as women and we need to honor those differences and teach and train and disciple and love and release people into their areas of gifting because you know, the body of Christ is a body and if the body is not functioning in its gifting.
not stepping up in their roles, then the body's gonna be weak and the home is gonna be weak. And for too long, the church has been weak, I think because of many reasons, but one of the reasons is that men have not been who they're called to be as godly leaders.
Rob Chartrand (47:19.79)
Yeah, yeah. Well, fantastic. Hey, let's change gears a little bit. You're you're playing guitar for a lot of years in your church before. And now you're stepping into a preaching role. Like your role has changed a lot. You know, you said you're doing like three out of four weeks preaching. What's that been like for you?
Jody Cross (47:40.61)
Yeah, that was a big learning curve for sure. So I have a gift of teaching and I've done a lot of teaching. I'm a teacher by training, but teacher by spiritual gifting.
Rob Chartrand (47:51.57)
Well, you teach in seminary too, don't you? And call it Bible college? Yeah, yeah.
Jody Cross (47:54.474)
Yeah, yeah. So with worship consulting and a lot of worship training, I've done a number of those things over years. Um, so, you know, standing up and communicating truth was not, it was not a problem for me, not an issue for me. It's a joy. I love, I love teaching, but having, if I'd preached once a year over the last 10 years prior to coming to South Shore, it probably would have been a stretch. So that was probably it. So I didn't get a lot of pulpit time, mostly because
I was doing guitar worship leading time and that was my calling and my role. So when I, and part of this was the reluctance of hey, this is quite a role change. So this is one of the reasons that I said no, because my worship leading gift was so strong and embedded in my heart. And there wasn't that necessary ambition or pull to preach that compulsion. So I thought, I don't think so. But again, in that year,
Rob Chartrand (48:27.082)
Right.
Jody Cross (48:54.498)
processing, praying, discerning, hearing from the Lord that God changed that. And so I really did step up into a brand new role. And I said a few minutes ago that this role was new. So it was new in COVID. It was a new church and a new church plant in a new role. I liken it to being a hockey player. You know, I've been playing goalie for 30 years and then you get called over to the bench and the coach says, take off the goalie pads. Here's a stick.
go play center and She go, okay, that's a puck. Yeah, I know the puck ice. I know the ice skates I know the skates but I'm in a different part of the rink and the job is different now so it you know was going from a second cheerleader to a first cheerleader and And then in the middle of kovat, so there was a lot of interesting and new things to juggle and I think in the preaching role What was really new was not opening my mouth and communicating truth, but
Rob Chartrand (49:26.022)
Hehehe
Jody Cross (49:53.878)
the discipline of study and of writing a manuscript and of planning series and of outlining texts. And all of that was a brand new discipline. And I was warned and I'm thankful it was warned. So a couple of things about this. This is a new thing. Okay, yeah, you've never done this before. And the weight is different. The weight of being a lead is very different. And anybody who's done what I've done, and probably, I don't know, I'm sure there's some guys who have started out.
Rob Chartrand (50:15.642)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (50:23.426)
in worship ministry have taken lead roles. I'm sure there's a number, but perhaps not 30 years into it. And you really can't describe the weight. You can talk about it, but you can't describe it until you're in the chair. And you know about that. And so, there's a different set of callings in terms of responsibilities, different set of weight, different set of pressure responsibilities. And then I had COVID as an overlayer of all that stuff.
Rob Chartrand (50:33.914)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (50:51.71)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Jody Cross (50:52.638)
And so the Lord's been really helpful and gracious and faithful to me in that journey. And it still continues to evolve in terms of my role. And as I'm settling into the preaching role, I realize what an honor it is to preach the unsearchable riches of Christ and to exposit scripture and to help people understand it and to love it, to learn it and to live it. And, you know, so I did remember talking to a guy who was a prophet heritage.
Rob Chartrand (51:10.107)
Hmm.
Jody Cross (51:20.83)
Bible college and he said to me once in a conversation I was having, he said, guys in their fifties, the temptation is for them to coast, like just take it easy and, you know, kind of put it in neutral and coast. And, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't seek to be like a skydiving, you know, thrill seeker, but, but I decided, I decided, I don't want that to be true of me. I don't want to coast. I don't want to settle. I don't want to settle in as in a chaplaincy role that I can just kind of placate people.
Rob Chartrand (51:28.134)
Hmm. Yeah.
Jody Cross (51:50.662)
and Lord, till my dying breath, my life is yours and wherever it is that you send me, here I am. And so the Lord took my word and really threw me out of my comfort zone and threw me into the new zone. And the good thing about that is that it breeds this massive amount of dependency on him and reliance and with Paul you say, he was sufficient for these things. And I think everybody who preaches,
Rob Chartrand (51:56.51)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (52:19.726)
how long they've been doing it or what their gifting is. Just say, you know, who is sufficient for these things? Because you're communicating the very words of God, the very heart of God to the people of God, this huge responsibility to shepherd the flock. And it's an honor and a privilege and a joy, and I'm enjoying it. And I know God's changing me and has been faithful to help me and to help our church in the middle of all of it.
Rob Chartrand (52:29.947)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (52:46.278)
Well, that mantle is heavy in the lead role, I think. Unlike being an associate or any other role in the church, I think you're right. You can't really describe it until you've worn it, what it's like. I mean, I was the senior associate at Bula, which is a big mega church, right? And then went and planted Crosspoint. And you know, the...
I think the amount of responsibility I had at Bula was significantly more than say at Crosspoint, but the weight of being the lead pastor and the church planter of Crosspoint just, man, and it's almost immediate. It's like, you're it, you're the one wearing this. And so learning to share that load with the Lord and helping him to shoulder that burden is like a lifelong journey for a lead pastor.
Jody Cross (53:20.161)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (53:40.462)
Mm-hmm and leaning into the guys that I work with the elders it really is it's a blessing and I've been on lots of church boards and boards over the 80s 90s 2000s have looked different from management boards to You know once a month meetings to ratify different decisions But this is this is guys in this particular polity that when that are their hands are in the dirt They're they're in the trenches in people's lives and shepherding and marriage issues
Rob Chartrand (53:44.092)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (54:04.807)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (54:11.788)
in serving in various capacities. So in a sense, you know, I'm very much not alone and I'm not doing this by myself. And I'm very thankful to each of these guys.
Rob Chartrand (54:20.486)
Are you still teaching right now? At Heritage or at?
Jody Cross (54:23.586)
Uh, no, I'm not the last the last thing that I was doing. I was doing some worship teaching in Albania, did a number of trips over there to teach worship and did. Uh, I've been doing some zoom teaching for them, but not at heritage. And actually, that's the other thing, discretionary time as a second share leader to do itinerant ministry is, um, is a little more plentiful than being a lead. So I haven't had quite the liberty to.
Rob Chartrand (54:32.164)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (54:39.606)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (54:45.529)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (54:49.404)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (54:52.738)
to do some of that other stuff as I did prior to being here. But I still do worship consulting and worship training, but not at Heritage.
Rob Chartrand (54:55.687)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (55:01.262)
Yeah, you got to say no to a lot more things because you need it. It's like, yeah, it's like a restaurant. You can't ever leave it. It's just it's there all the time. But however, you also are hosting a podcast in your spare time. So let's let me talk about that for a bit. How long you've been hosting the tell us the name of your podcast. How long has it been going on and what's it all about? I'm interested in knowing.
Jody Cross (55:03.586)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, job one is job one. Yeah.
Jody Cross (55:15.605)
Mm-hmm.
Jody Cross (55:24.382)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so it's gospel coalition TGC Canada and that's called worship God. So it's a podcast for worship leaders and those who are involved in worship ministry We've been doing this Well, we're 60 episodes in so I think that's probably two years or so and I started out with co-host Rob Brockman in Orillia and a guy named Pat Sevelle in Vancouver. He was at
most recently at Midtown Church. Two great guys and Pat's a songwriter, worship ministry veteran. Like me, he was a worship leader, worship pastor, was a senior pastor for a while in a church plant. Now he's doing worship consulting and Rob is an associate pastor of worship and missions up in Aurelia. So we had fun, three of us doing what we did. And so we were about 60 episodes in, we were recording with a guy yesterday.
on a topic called over realized eschatology. One of the PhD guys from Southern, it's like, what is that? Basically means, it means we're not in heaven yet and how does that affect our worship and our singing and our song lyrics? And he wrote his PhD thesis on that. And we talk about those kinds of things. We interview guests and also recorded one recently, just talking about evaluating criticism and how you deal with critique, how you evaluate it and the sources and what you do with it. So.
Rob Chartrand (56:38.226)
Yeah. Okay.
Jody Cross (56:52.994)
We try to be practical. We've covered a whole bunch of different topics, had Paul Balash on, we've had Brian Dirksen on, we've had Mark Buchanan, some of your listeners will know Mark. And so people who are musical or who think deeply about things, Mark Buchanan talked about David and David as a worshipper. So sometimes we have guests, sometimes it's just us, but yeah, we've been doing that and really enjoyed and hope that we can encourage people to have Christ honoring.
Rob Chartrand (57:02.126)
Yeah.
Jody Cross (57:22.69)
congregation edifying worship.
Rob Chartrand (57:25.262)
Yeah. So you said it's TGC. So how did it get started then? Did they come to you or you came to them? Or how did you get it off the ground? What's the vision behind that?
Jody Cross (57:34.798)
TGC Canada, the director, his name is Wyatt Graham, and Pat Sibel was on their national board. And it was Wyatt who, I think, dreamed up the idea with Pat, and Pat said yes. And then Rob and I came in as co-hosts with him. Pat's now doing his worship consulting thing, so Rob and I are taking it over. And so that's kind of where we're at.
Rob Chartrand (57:40.85)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (57:57.319)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (58:00.954)
Yeah. So is it just the two of you then? Do you have a third guest host you bring in every once in a while?
Jody Cross (58:06.326)
Yeah, Pat, Pat's sort of the guest host emeritus and we bring him out of retirement every once in a while. And Johnny Markin, I don't know if you know who Johnny Markin is, he's Cloverdale Baptist in BC. So he's been on a few times. So we've got some friends in the ministry who are kind of cousins and are sometimes hosts. But yeah, so it looks mostly like Rob and I at this point, sometimes these guest guys, but.
Rob Chartrand (58:09.383)
OK.
Rob Chartrand (58:18.722)
Okay. Yeah. You're mentioning that. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (58:33.414)
Okay, so the name of your podcast and where can people get it?
Jody Cross (58:36.49)
Worship God on all the platforms. TGC Canada worship God pretty simple.
Rob Chartrand (58:38.402)
Okay. Everywhere. RSS feed.
Jody Cross (58:43.418)
Yeah
Rob Chartrand (58:44.286)
Thanks for watching!
Jody Cross (58:45.91)
Yes, we are an audio podcast at this point. Actually, we started the first few, we did video, but yeah, we're just audio at this point. And yeah, and I just appreciate your co-host, Jeff Dresser and I, I guess this is really why you and I got connected because Jeff and I were friends from our Ottawa days as he was processing his own call. And has he been a guest? Has he been on the other side of the mic on this side?
Rob Chartrand (58:52.346)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, go ahead.
Rob Chartrand (59:11.482)
He hasn't yet. No, we've only had outside guests. I think we'll probably do that like eventually We just didn't want to interview ourselves yet But I know he would have a lot to say about the worship actually just publishing an article about it right now That's I read the first draft and I can't wait till it comes out
Jody Cross (59:29.15)
I had the privilege of walking with him as an engineer and him wrestling through his own calling. And so I know Jeff's got a great story and his family. So thank you for what you're doing to encourage leaders and to take stories of people in the trenches. So thank you, Rob, for doing that.
Rob Chartrand (59:46.426)
Yeah, well, hey, it's been great having you. I wonder if as we close, you could just give a final word of encouragement to our listeners from one pastor's heart to another.
Jody Cross (59:54.638)
Mm-hmm Yeah well leadership is a privilege and God is gracious to call us call us into that So wherever it is that people are listening and wherever they're serving today just know you have an audience of one and None of us feel like we are sufficient. None of us feel like we're competent and of ourselves and The Lord has a wonderful way of reminding us to stay humble and to stay dependent
very much aware of our need, but also of his sufficiency. And I love the scripture in 2 Timothy 2, chapter one, or chapter two, verse one, it says, be strong in the grace in Christ Jesus. And there's lots of ways that leaders get beat up and hammered and discouraged. But I was just reflecting even this morning that there is strength and grace in the Lord. And we believe in the power of prayer and the enabling grace of God, and in the ministry of the Holy Spirit to do what he's called us to do.
At the end of the day, we plant and we water, but God brings the growth. So as you trust in the Lord, brothers and sisters, as you're listening, allow God's grace to carry you today.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:58.767)
Yep. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:05.931)
Good word. Jody Cross, thanks for joining us on Church in the North. Hope to have you back again sometime.
Jody Cross (01:01:13.154)
Thanks, Rob. Really appreciate it. It's good chatting with you too.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:15.247)
Yeah, see you later.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:19.95)
All right, one hour and one minute, but there's probably about a four hour break.