Church Reconciliation and Indigenous Peoples in Thunder Bay with Milissa Ewing

Rob Chartrand (00:01.425)
Well, hey, we are so delighted to have Melissa Ewing, lead pastor of Redwood Park Church in Thunder Bay, Ontario with us today on the podcast. Melissa, welcome to Church in the North.

Milissa Ewing (00:12.886)
Thank you for inviting me. I've been listening and it's been good.

Rob Chartrand (00:18.017)
Awesome. Hey, I wanna talk about your church and your leadership in the church there. But first of all, I wanna roll things back and talk a little bit about your story and your calling into pastoral ministry. So you're not originally from Teabay. It's not your home stomping grounds. Tell us about your journey of how you ended up in Thunder Bay into your current role.

Milissa Ewing (00:43.306)
Yeah, so I'm from the West Coast. I was born on Vancouver Island. My husband Jay's from Calgary, but lived in BC for the last 20 years, almost our whole marriage. And so, yeah, we had never been to Thunder Bay until we came here for an interview. It totally came out of the blue, but when I look back, I can see God kind of planting these little seeds and markers, direction markers along the way, but...

Rob Chartrand (00:46.707)
Yes.

Milissa Ewing (01:11.742)
It actually, it started actually when you and I were participating on another podcast. So you were part of the beginning of this actually. We, the podcast a number of years ago in Winnipeg and with Nathan Westlake at Portage-le-Prairie, who I think has been on, he has been on this podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, Nathan.

Rob Chartrand (01:18.374)
Oh really? Yeah, okay.

Rob Chartrand (01:31.061)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:34.545)
Yeah, yeah, he came in on one of our earlier episodes.

Milissa Ewing (01:38.882)
That was the first time that Nathan and I had met. And as we began talking, realized we had the same heart for indigenous reconciliation and whatnot. And then here at Redwood, they're without a lead pastor. And so Nathan came in and did some interim work and realized that this church needs a lead pastor and also needs somebody to really lean into discipleship and spiritual formation. And then the Lord reminded him of us.

Rob Chartrand (01:54.482)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (02:07.646)
me and my husband, he's our spiritual formation pastor. And so it was him who reached out to us and kind of said, hey, I'm not sure what you guys are up to these days, but I'm doing some work in Thunder Bay. And there's a role here or a couple of roles here. We think you'd be perfect for them. And one is for lead pastor, and Melissa, I think you'd be suited for this. And Jay, spiritual formation, and this is in your wheelhouse.

And I think the thing that really surprised us at first, beyond Thunder Bay, is that Jay and I had been discerning our unique calling as pastors. At our last church, I was a family pastor, but really was feeling called to preach, got to lead organizationally, those types of things. And so it was kind of hitting a frustration point. However, as Jay and I started looking around at different jobs in different churches,

Um, more often than not, um, they were looking at Jay for the lead pastor role and me in the pastoral care shepherding role. And, um, that is not how we're wired. Jay can preach, but it doesn't give him energy to do it week after week. And I can provide pastoral care, but it does drain me. Uh, and so, yeah, so this was really the first church that came and said, like, we have these roles and we didn't have to convince them that.

Rob Chartrand (03:08.105)
Right.

Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (03:32.006)
you should be looking at it differently. They approached us first. Yeah. And then we flew here and our kids came too because we wanted to, if we're going to make this big move and we're all from the west coast, we want to make sure our kids are, they see where we're moving and they're in it. And by the end of the weekend, even our kids were saying, we sense the Lord is calling us here. In fact, my daughter who was 13 at the time was like, oh, I don't want to say it because it means we're going to have to move. But I think God's calling us here.

Rob Chartrand (04:01.381)
Yeah, wow. Yeah, I mean, those teenage years are difficult time to move a family for ministry, aren't they? Because that's when they're, they have these really tight connections with their friend groups.

Milissa Ewing (04:02.315)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (04:11.934)
Yes, yeah, yeah. And then one of the cool things was, when I first came here, Nathan continued walking with our church for about six months. And so me as a brand new learning to be a lead pastor, Nathan, who's been doing it for years and years and has been a friend to us, was able to walk with me. He came to board meetings for the first six months and he ran them, but then gradually handed them over to me.

Rob Chartrand (04:20.167)
Okay.

Rob Chartrand (04:31.484)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (04:36.381)
Wow.

Milissa Ewing (04:40.982)
to run with the chair and yeah, like lots of peer to peer coaching and, well, I say peer to peer, I wasn't coaching him at all. He was coaching me. And got to a point where he and I both felt like, okay, it's time, I can do this. It just felt like a really healthy model of stepping into a new role.

Rob Chartrand (04:41.345)
Hm.

Rob Chartrand (04:46.693)
Yeah. What a gift. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (05:02.269)
Wow. Yeah. So was that about a year process that to make that transition in total or

Milissa Ewing (05:09.93)
Yeah, I would say it was about a year. Yeah, it was six months of really hands-on. Nathan would come as he could. I mean, it was COVID, so things shut down. He wasn't able to be here physically as much as he planned. But he, and then for six months, it was more like on call. It's like call a friend. He was to call a friend. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (05:12.233)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (05:27.65)
Okay, yeah.

Hmm. Fantastic. So, so before that, you were at 10th Avenue in yeah, and was that the first church you served in or did you serve somewhere before that?

Milissa Ewing (05:35.552)
Yes.

Milissa Ewing (05:39.934)
Yeah, no, that was the first church that I served in. Yeah, I had, when I first came to Christ, when I was like 19, you know, I'd grown up attending church, but it wasn't really my own faith until I was 19. So I really say I became a Christian when I was about 19. I kind of walked away in my teens. And, but when I look back, I can see these moments where God was calling me into ministry.

Rob Chartrand (05:53.929)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (05:59.292)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (06:09.287)
Okay.

Milissa Ewing (06:09.474)
but I just didn't see it. When I was younger, I went to Catholic church and women don't serve as priests. And so I remember telling people, when I grew up, I wanna be, do the anti-bullying talks in the schools or be a motivational speaker or something like this. And it just didn't occur to me. And then when I became a Christian, I began serving in my church.

Rob Chartrand (06:25.661)
Hmm. Wow.

Milissa Ewing (06:36.266)
The pastor was like, hey, you should go to this Bible college program. It's like a leadership, discipleship thing. I see these things in you. And so I went, but still not thinking that's what I was going to do. Um, like there was one point where I used to go, um, out in BC. So I was like the Catholic kid whose best friend was a Pentecostal. And so I would go sometimes to the evening service with her, which is the really charismatic one and the morning Catholic mass.

Rob Chartrand (06:44.519)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (06:56.177)
Okay.

Rob Chartrand (07:02.323)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (07:02.786)
And for a season in BC, I don't know if it still happens, there was this youth conference called History Maker. Yeah, yeah, and so, and it was held in Kamloops, I lived in Kamloops at the time. So I would always go with her, and I totally wasn't following the word at that time. I wouldn't have said I had a personal relationship with Jesus, none of those things. But I would go with her, and every time they do like this altar call.

Rob Chartrand (07:08.69)
Oh yeah, I remember those. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (07:20.199)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (07:24.97)
you know, like if you believe that this and this, you know, and every time I'd be like, well, yeah, I believe that in my head. So I put up my hand and her youth group would all be like, excited that I'd accepted Jesus and I did it again and again and again and again. But, but it didn't, I don't know. It wasn't, it didn't really take. And then I, when I finally did fully surrender my life, I went with her again. This time she was a leader and I went with her as a leader.

Rob Chartrand (07:27.454)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (07:34.822)
right.

Rob Chartrand (07:42.61)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (07:52.13)
And there was an altar call and it was about, if you feel called into ministry, we want those people who are called into ministry to come forward. And I was like, I'm going forward with no rhyme or reason, like, as I'd never entered. So I go to the front, actually her cousin was there, who's a pastor of Victoria now. He was like, Melissa, what are you doing here? Very surprised, as surprised as I was. So he prayed with me. And again, I...

Rob Chartrand (07:57.098)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (08:19.926)
that happened and then I just kind of ignored it. Met my husband in Calgary, he's called into ministry, he felt a calling when he was 15 and so then I thought, well, I guess this calling is for me as a pastor's wife, right, like it's a whole family calling into ministry and I believe that's true. And so this like, it kind of went underground for a while serving alongside Jay as his wife and I became an elementary school teacher.

Rob Chartrand (08:45.341)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (08:49.29)
but did have these moments still where I...

Milissa Ewing (08:54.518)
You know, it seems very obvious now. Like for example, at one point Jay was working in an Anglican church as a youth pastor and our priest Louise in Kamloops. Um, she was amazing. I used to say to Jay, Oh, if I grew up in the Anglican church and Louise was my priest, I would totally be a priest now. Not thinking that it's not too late for me to step into this, just kind of like that ship has sailed. Um, another time when Jay was working at a church and it was a more

Rob Chartrand (09:00.979)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (09:14.166)
Mm. Right.

Milissa Ewing (09:22.638)
And I could see this church needs a family pastor. And so I said to Jay, like, I'm gonna go pitch this to the lead pastor. And Jay was like, you know, I don't think it's gonna go well for you or for us. And that was actually Jay's like, I don't think I can work in this church either because my wife has these gifts and I've got these daughters and I've probably rubbing some people the wrong way now who might be listening who do have a complimentary.

Rob Chartrand (09:43.017)
Yeah

Rob Chartrand (09:48.633)
Oh no, yeah no.

Milissa Ewing (09:51.442)
But, but yeah, and even then both Jay and I, we didn't totally, we still weren't interpreting that as me, I should step out of teaching and into ministry. So it wasn't until 10th, where our pastor Ken invited me to apply for the family pastor role. And I really thought it was a temporary thing. Like I'll take a leave from teaching with the Vancouver school board, but within a year started to see, okay, I see what God was doing.

all along, but I stepped in at 36. So, took that long to finally forgot to just, I've been trying, I've been, I've been trying to get you to step into this for a long time. Just didn't see it.

Rob Chartrand (10:23.229)
Wow, okay.

Rob Chartrand (10:31.861)
Hmm. Yeah. So if you if you, you know, rolled back time, if you would have seen more women in more lead pastoral roles, do you think you might have been a more of an early adopter?

Milissa Ewing (10:46.778)
Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah. I mean, even as a teen, you know, when Jay and I, we do a fair amount, or we have done a fair amount of mentoring over the years of younger pastors. And we just find consistently that often the men that Jay will be mentoring, you know, they felt this calling in their teenagers. And when I meet with women.

Rob Chartrand (11:01.138)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (11:15.794)
sometimes who are in their 30s and discerning this, if we start peeling back the layers, they too actually recalled in their teenage years, there was just nobody there to say, I see this gift in you and then give them opportunities to lead. And I think it just wasn't in our imagination that it was possible.

Rob Chartrand (11:22.325)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (11:27.314)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (11:34.685)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, my wife, Karen, she received a call to ministry when she was 14 years old. You know, and has since, you know, been in, you know, secular vocation as well as serving in the church. But she's always played significant leadership roles in the church, for sure. But that was clear to her from a really young age that the Lord had called her.

Milissa Ewing (11:54.359)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (12:02.941)
I want to back up in your story a little bit. So you said you made these responses to the altar calls with your, you know, and you definitely, it was clear in your story that you made a definite response to a call to ministry. But when in your journey did you finally, like it kind of clicked for you in terms of faith and you said, yeah, I'm going to surrender my life to Christ.

Milissa Ewing (12:08.523)
Yeah

Milissa Ewing (12:23.338)
Yeah, it's so funny that you're asking this because I actually shared the story last Sunday in the sermon for the first time here at Redwood about what happened. So yeah, I was studying fine arts and you know, like I really would have said, I believe in God. I believe there is a God, more like I believe there is a God. I believe Jesus was a real person. He's not really participating in the world.

Rob Chartrand (12:27.674)
Okay, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (12:35.035)
Okay.

Milissa Ewing (12:51.61)
or in my life, really, there's no relationship there. And my life did not reflect any kind of belief or any of that. So every time I put up my hand, like for these altar calls, it was more like an, like, I believe in my head. And also I'm just, I'm putting up my hand because just wanna be like, God, I'm here. I think you're real. And if I die.

Rob Chartrand (12:52.941)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (12:58.537)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (13:04.69)
Coginders. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (13:18.174)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (13:21.298)
let this be like an acknowledgement that I want to go to heaven kind of a thing. Like it, yeah, really. But, uh, but for sure, I didn't understand this personal relationship bit. Um, that it was. Yeah, it just wasn't, it wasn't part of my understanding. And, um, yeah. So anyways, I was in these art classes and there was a guy in my art class named Roberto, um, who, uh,

Rob Chartrand (13:23.442)
Right. The nod to God. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (13:40.902)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (13:51.602)
he was a follower of Jesus and he would do these really awesome art pieces. So in art school you have to do your art piece and you have to do an artist statement and you have to share that with the class before you submit your work and you get critiqued by your classmates and your professor. And it can be very humbling and very vulnerable but he would always have these art pieces and I remember one in particular was about grace.

Rob Chartrand (13:53.788)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (14:09.692)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (14:17.918)
Uh, and so he really kind of shared his story as part of his artist statement and there's something about like what he was saying and what was going on in my life, like I was partying and, um, not just discontent in my life and my direction and everything and what he was saying just really seemed to speak to where I was at. Um, and so we see, yeah, we struck up a friendship. He invited me to go to campus ministry stuff and I met his friends and his friends were

Rob Chartrand (14:21.614)
Mm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (14:37.778)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (14:45.814)
Like I didn't understand this friend group. They were all friends with each other, but they seemed so different from one another. Like they had nothing in common and I couldn't figure out what was going on. And also they were so different than the people I was hanging out with. Like they seemed genuinely interested in me. Not like who I was hanging out with or what clubs I was going to or any of that kind of stuff. They were really interested in. Like, why are you studying art? And what are you gonna do with an art degree?

all those kinds of things and telling me about your family and your upbringing. And eventually I came to see that it's Jesus in them. And so after a worship night, a campus worship night, I was driving Roberto home and he boldly just asked like, do you believe this stuff?

Rob Chartrand (15:17.705)
Hm. They saw you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (15:37.622)
Like, do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? And do you believe that he died for you? And do you believe that you could be forgiven for all of this stuff that's been going on in your life? And in that moment, I realized, I do believe. And he was like, so what is stopping you right now from just fully becoming a follower of Jesus? And it just clicked, it all kind of fell into place. And so he led me in prayer. So even though I had prayed, sort of prayed that prayer before,

I didn't really understand what I was praying. So was it like a gradual conversion? Was it a, I don't know, but in that moment was the real, I get this, it's like the Holy Spirit just opened my eyes to see something that I didn't quite see before. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (16:20.092)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (16:24.401)
Wow. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I just am amazed that God can use I'm not amazed, but I'm thankful that God can use art in such a way that you experience his grace. That's incredible.

Milissa Ewing (16:36.258)
Yeah.

His art was like really good art. It wasn't cheesy Christian art. It was good. It's good art. Yeah, yeah, no, it's like really good, thoughtful art that he just put out there for debate, really, to spark a conversation. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (16:42.585)
Okay, he was in Christian Kitsch. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (16:51.112)
Yeah.

Hmm. Wow. Okay, so I mean, we can see all those moments now where that eventually led you to the church in Vancouver to attend that. How did you end up on the staff there?

Milissa Ewing (17:08.151)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (17:13.182)
Yeah, so my husband was already on site, so on staff. Jay was already working there. He'd been working there for about a year and a half, and the church needed a family pastor. And so as the story goes, Ken, our lead pastor, he was sitting there in the service, and yeah, saw me in the service, and felt the Spirit saying, ask Melissa to step into this role. And so he did, and when he first asked me,

Rob Chartrand (17:31.761)
Yeah, and Jigime too.

Rob Chartrand (17:40.481)
Hm. Well.

Milissa Ewing (17:43.254)
there is no way I'm doing this. I'm not touching this ministry with like a thousand foot pole. Yeah, I just, Jay was like, I don't think you want to do that role either. But I went away and prayed about it because I was like, I'll pray about it. And I realized that even the past year, I'd been feeling this discontentment again. I was teacher librarian that year. And

our kids were just about in full-time school. And so I knew the next year, am I gonna, I'm gonna bump up my hours and teach full-time or am I gonna finally try to make it as an artist? Maybe I'll take two days a week and dedicate to art and see if I can start generating an income there. And those were my two options, increase my teaching hours or be an artist. And so I decided that year that I was going to just, as I shelved books in the library, I was just gonna pray.

Rob Chartrand (18:22.876)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (18:33.373)
with me.

Milissa Ewing (18:42.094)
I was thinking about like Brother Lawrence and practicing the presence of God. And so I'm like, I'm shelving the books that I'm like, your will be done, your will be done. Show me what to do. Show me what to do. What am I supposed to do? All of these things. And, and yeah, so it was six months of that and then Ken approached me with that role. So I was like, I got to give this a fair hearing. I got to bring this before God and just really sense God, um, asking me to step in.

Rob Chartrand (18:44.421)
Yeah, yeah. Wow, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (18:51.637)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (19:00.745)
Fascinating.

Rob Chartrand (19:11.774)
Hmph.

Milissa Ewing (19:12.278)
and stepped in and I still kind of felt like it was going to be a temporary thing. Like I could take a leave from the school board and didn't have to resign. So that's what I did. You know, I still had my escape patch. And then it was Ken invited me to preach. And I had never, I had preached one sermon with Jay, but that had been it.

Rob Chartrand (19:21.875)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (19:37.978)
And he, it was at 10th. And then he said, you know, I'd like to invite you to preach on your own. And so I did. And I had one of the most profound experiences of God's presence in that, um, in a way that I'd only ever experienced actually painting pictures. Like when I paint, it's like my prayer language. You know, I, I just really sense God's presence in my painting and I've entered into this whole we.

Rob Chartrand (19:52.383)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (19:59.785)
Mm.

Milissa Ewing (20:07.598)
time, it feels like, God's time. And I was really quite like, obviously really nervous preaching and it's a big church to preach your first sermon in. And the night before, as I'm like nervous and there's car alarms going off in the neighborhood and you know, our kids are crying and I'm like really anxious and you know, just so many things going on and I'm praying like...

Rob Chartrand (20:09.757)
Yeah. Wow.

Rob Chartrand (20:19.538)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Milissa Ewing (20:37.238)
as I'm trying to fall asleep, God just give me sleep. Like I've done all the preparation I could do. I just need to go to sleep. And then, yeah, I just sense God's presence in my bedroom. And it was like just, it was this experience of love, like just love. I just felt loved. And I just thought to myself, I could just go out there and say, I am so dearly loved and so are you, and that would be good enough.

Rob Chartrand (20:51.544)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (20:55.121)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (21:07.338)
Um, and, uh, yeah, I've only had a couple of experiences like that in my life, but it was just the night before I preached my first sermon, it was this overwhelming sense of love. And so then the next morning I woke up and, um, preached, I actually did preach the sermon I prepared, not God loves you and God loves you and that's it.

Rob Chartrand (21:07.506)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (21:30.429)
Okay. Well, it's a start. Well done.

Milissa Ewing (21:33.714)
And as I, yeah, as I did it, I had that same feeling. I was speaking and I just felt the same way that I do when I'm painting. Like, God prepared me for this. He made me for this. And I'm stepping into something that I should have been doing, but the time is now. And then, yeah, and then again afterwards, like the next morning, you know, Monday morning, you often wake up after Sundays and you're exhausted. And I actually felt pumped.

Rob Chartrand (21:41.085)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (21:46.321)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (21:53.277)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (22:03.286)
Like I just sit, I woke up and I was like, God's presence is back. I'm sensing God's presence here with me again. Drop my kids off at school and I'm like, does everybody else know that God is here right now with us present? And yeah, I just felt like God saying like, well done my daughter, you did what I asked you to do. And I've reflected on that, you know, and I know not everybody has a profound experience like that the first time they preach.

Rob Chartrand (22:03.398)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (22:16.968)
No.

Rob Chartrand (22:21.523)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (22:30.218)
You know, it's not always like that. It's very rarely like that. But, um, I think because it can be harder for women to step into these roles. I believe that God gave me this profound experience just to make it very clear. I'm calling you to do this. There are going to be days where you're going to feel like the doors aren't going to open or it's going to be harder for you to step into this calling, but. I want you to be sure.

Rob Chartrand (22:42.335)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (22:48.957)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (22:56.393)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (23:00.285)
Hmm. Yeah, what a gift. What a gift. Um, if only every time we preach, we could preach from that place. Like, you are a dearly loved son or daughter. All I want you to do is just be a good son or daughter. That's it. You're loved. Go do it. You know, but

Milissa Ewing (23:00.375)
want you to know.

Milissa Ewing (23:10.286)
I hate it.

Milissa Ewing (23:18.174)
Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yeah, I find that when I get into that, like feeling the pressure, like I've got to put something, you know, it's like, it's like, we all feel it, right? Like that's, you start to live into your humanness more, which is, yeah, always leads us down the road of performance or pride or anxiety or fear or whatever it is.

Rob Chartrand (23:31.89)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (23:37.064)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (23:47.026)
I do go back and I read my journal from that experience. And it's just a reminder for me that.

Rob Chartrand (23:49.493)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (23:58.7)
that I'm doing the thing that God called me to do, and that's the best I can do.

Rob Chartrand (23:58.76)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (24:02.769)
Yeah, I kind of had an epiphany like that. I think it was probably about a decade ago now. And I was preaching at a camp and that I was just so overthinking, over anxious, over meticulous in my preparation and whatnot. And, and Karen was at the camp with me, but I did have this overwhelming sense at the beginning, God just saying to me, I don't need you to do anything here, just

just be a good son. That's it. Just be a good son. I'm your dad. Just be a good son. When you get up there. That's all I'm asking you to do. I'm not asking you to perform. I'm not asking you to, you know, to woo the audience or sway them or impress anybody. All you need to do is just be a good son. And so now whenever I'm preaching, I will remind myself of that. And my wife will remind me of that. She'll say, Rob, all you have to do is just be a good son. That's it. I'm like,

Milissa Ewing (24:34.254)
Mm.

Milissa Ewing (24:54.211)
Oh, so good.

Rob Chartrand (24:58.781)
And there's all of a sudden this weight, you know, of all this stuff that we carry, like you say about pressing into our humaneness just kind of dissolves and it's not like I don't take preparation seriously and all that certainly I do right that's part of being a good son but in that moment the preaching moment is just. And so you just I think you come in with a different posture as your as your preaching when you when you just remind yourself it's you don't have to impress anybody yeah.

Milissa Ewing (25:02.902)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (25:08.823)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (25:21.13)
Yeah, there's a bit of a freedom in it, right? Because like as parents, I look at my daughter, I'm most, I feel most joyful in their presence when I see them being them, being themselves, you know, they're leading into the things that they love. And when I see delight in them, I feel delight, you know? And so sometimes I imagine, I imagine that God made me to do this thing for.

Rob Chartrand (25:32.798)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (25:41.393)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (25:48.738)
however long he's called me to do this thing. And if I'm faithful to him in it, and leaning and not trying to be somebody I'm not, that he delights in me.

Rob Chartrand (26:00.885)
Yeah. And I mean, and you don't want to see your kids being themselves, you know, like being a phony among their friends and trying to impress and all these things like, no, I just, I just love you for who you are. Why would you try and do that? That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Well, let's talk a bit about Thunder Bay. How would you describe your city tell about describe to those who haven't been in Thunder Bay, and I should let our listeners know I did.

Milissa Ewing (26:04.832)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (26:13.718)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Milissa Ewing (26:20.822)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (26:28.329)
pastor in Thunder Bay as the youth pastor back in early 2000s, I think it was 2000, 2002 I was there. So I got to experience this city. But I want you to brag on Thunder Bay a little bit. Tell us about the beauty of the surrounding region.

Milissa Ewing (26:43.578)
Yes, so being from the West Coast, I have this idea of mountains and oceans and being outdoors has been a very big part of our life. When we first flew to Thunder Bay and I was thinking, oh Lord, are you calling us to leave?

Rob Chartrand (26:47.27)
Where is it to?

Rob Chartrand (27:00.978)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (27:09.858)
the forest that I love and the ocean and all of those things. We fly in and I'm like laughing at God's goodness because Lake Superior feels like an ocean and they're little mountains, like we do downhill ski here, but there's like Mount McKay and the Sleeping Giant, like it's just beautiful here. And we're pretty outdoorsy, like we like to trail run and ski and my husband's into rock climbing and stuff and all those things are here and more.

Rob Chartrand (27:11.988)
Mm.

Rob Chartrand (27:21.224)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (27:39.69)
It's like this little hidden outdoor gem for people who are into outdoor stuff. I think most of Canada is unaware of. And I've often like talked to people who are from Thunder Bay. I'm like, why doesn't Thunder Bay capitalize on this? Like ecotourism and adventure tourism could be a big thing. But sometimes I, yeah, yeah. I think, I think people don't want to let the secret out. So now I'm letting the secret out. It's a, it's a, it's a pretty fun outdoor.

Rob Chartrand (27:43.922)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (27:48.688)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (27:54.577)
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Like Duluth does. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (28:02.741)
Okay.

Milissa Ewing (28:08.906)
community. We've got passes to one of the ski hills in town and yeah, it's and in Thunderbears, um, probably they spend, I say they, we now because I live here, spend more time outside than BC people. BC people who might be listening, you think you have the market quartered on being an outdoorsy culture, uh, like it's year-round here.

Rob Chartrand (28:10.002)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (28:30.706)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (28:38.309)
Yeah. It's a winter wonderland and it's a summer wonderland. It's incredible. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (28:42.066)
Yes, yeah. And all of like the Canadiana stereotypes actually exist here. So like, you know, the canoeing and the hiking and the flannel and the ice fishing and all of those things. In the summer, the... Anyway, it's just beautiful. It's all here. It's been a... It's a fun, it's a fun adventure. And fun fact, Thunder Bay, supposedly, I don't know if this is...

Rob Chartrand (28:49.288)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (28:55.358)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (29:11.094)
still true, but I hear it is, is the highest population of people from Finland here outside of Finland. Yeah, so the Finnish culture here is really strong. So there's also in addition to the outdoor stuff, there's lots of saunas or saunas, I should say. Yeah, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (29:16.069)
Yes, yes, it is. That's true. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (29:25.241)
Yes. That's right. Yeah. I was that was shocking to me how many people had a sauna in their basement or out at their cabin at the woods in the lake and they they'd sauna and then they jump in the lake or whatnot and it was a huge thing there.

Milissa Ewing (29:33.526)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (29:40.452)
Yes. Yeah, we were looking, when we were looking at houses, a lot of the houses had a sauna in the basement, and that's what we were hoping for, and then we ended up buying one without. But there's some guys in our church who are like, let's build you one! Like, yes.

Rob Chartrand (29:52.229)
Well and it's funny is they all have saunas but they don't have garages. Like it's hard to find a house in the garage but oh yeah, this has got a sauna. That's all that matters.

Milissa Ewing (29:56.522)
Yeah, I know.

Milissa Ewing (30:00.274)
Yeah, we found that as an odd thing, like kind of all the places in Canada that should have a garage, an attached garage. Yeah, it's not really a thing here. I mean, there are some, but...

Rob Chartrand (30:08.293)
Yeah, because there's so much snow. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (30:13.745)
Yeah, I loved when I was youth, when I youth pass it there in the mornings on my way to work, I would get up really early and I just throw my fishing rod in my vehicle. And you can drive five minutes anywhere out of town basically and you hit a lake. And I would just sit on the shore and put my line in the water. I do still fishing and sitting with a hot cup of coffee do my devotions right on the side of the lake. It was just unbelievable.

Milissa Ewing (30:27.339)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (30:32.226)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (30:37.662)
Yeah, it is unbelievable. It's like, yeah, really five minutes and you're just out in beautiful areas and the trees and the fall. It's just, it's gorgeous. The other piece too is that this is cottage country except in Thunder Bay. It's not called cottage, it's camps. So everybody has a camp. When we first got here, we were like, people like, I'm going into the camp and I'm like, wow, there's like a real Christian camp culture here, but it's actually people's cottages. But...

Rob Chartrand (30:43.667)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (30:55.813)
Yeah, this is camp, so anything. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (31:03.422)
Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (31:07.95)
So, you know, we've gotten to have, we get to have our staff retreats at the beautiful camp of somebody in our church. And Jay and I will do silent retreats, you know, at somebody else's camp. And it's just, yeah. The other thing about Thunder Bay is that people here, we are very surprised. And of course we came from living right in the city in an urban area. People here are so nice. Like like, and I don't mean nice in like a generic way. But if you think about like just

Rob Chartrand (31:28.496)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (31:37.17)
nice, hospitable, kind, welcoming, friendly kind of people. Like Minnesota nice, you know, that seems to extend up into, into Thunder Bay. People were very kind. My kids thought it was weird when we first moved here. They're like, why are people smiling at us when we're walking down the street? I'm like, I'm impressed.

Rob Chartrand (31:43.022)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

Rob Chartrand (31:56.322)
Yeah, and it's I mean, it's a it's a central place in the in the region. So there's about is it 110,000 in Thunder Bay? Is that about the population? Yeah. So it's a good size city for sure. But but very different than Vancouver, very different context. So talk to us. What are some of the most noticeable cultural differences between where you are now and where you came from?

Milissa Ewing (32:02.602)
Yeah, yep, that's right.

Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (32:10.838)
Very, very different. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (32:19.922)
Yeah, I mean, Vancouver is a very high Asian population. And our church, you know, 10th, I don't know what the demographic there is now, but there's a bit of demographic studies, what we were there, and it's like 60, 70% Asian demographic at the church, which represented the city. And here, you know, like when we first got here, we're like, we're trained, we're used to seeing, you know, our Asian friends or just Asian neighbors or whatever. And that that's not a

Rob Chartrand (32:23.442)
Yes. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (32:33.517)
Mm. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (32:50.314)
big demographic in Thunder Bay. So that was a big shock to us. And we didn't realize the Asian influence in the general culture in Vancouver either. So that's been a, that's been a bit of a difference here. One of the pieces here, we were one of the things that everybody who I know who's moved here from somewhere else, we're like, we wish there was a Costco. I know it sounds so silly, but I didn't think I'd miss Costco and Ikea.

Rob Chartrand (32:51.665)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (32:59.653)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (33:18.465)
Yeah. Yes.

Milissa Ewing (33:19.602)
Costco in Ikea. They're sure allowed for there to be a Costco in an Ikea. But yeah, exactly. But there is one of everything else here. So it's a decent sized city. It's a high indigenous population here. Recent, I don't know, stats usually put it at around 10 or 20%, but that doesn't capture it. I don't think the population is more like a...

Rob Chartrand (33:23.837)
those free hot dogs, those cheap hot dogs and those Swedish meatballs or whatever. They just.

Rob Chartrand (33:31.369)
Hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (33:38.225)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (33:48.834)
30% ish, 40% probably the population is Indigenous. And like you said, yes, exactly, exactly. Because there's a transient population and whatnot students. We're a hub for Northwestern Ontario. So all of the Northern communities, many fly in or ice road access only. Thunder Bay is the place for healthcare or...

Rob Chartrand (33:50.097)
Mm hmm. Yeah. 20% of those tracked. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (34:13.278)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (34:18.706)
any kind of medical services really. A lot of reserves will have their band office here in Thunder Bay. So there's lots and lots of band offices and services for Indigenous people, government services, and the university, and a high school too. So Dennis Franklin Cromartie High School is just a couple of blocks away from our church. And for the Northern communities that don't have a high school,

Rob Chartrand (34:24.745)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (34:31.911)
and the university.

Yeah. Right.

Milissa Ewing (34:47.902)
those parents have the choice of having their kids not finish high school or moving to Thunder Bay to finish their high school. So I think the school recently opened up to local Indigenous students as well. So it's beginning to change a bit that way. But yeah, many of the kids who come have never been outside of their home community and then show up here never having seen a stoplight or traffic or stores or any of these things and end up coming.

Rob Chartrand (34:54.332)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (35:01.193)
Okay.

Milissa Ewing (35:16.874)
Yeah, coming into the city. Yeah, I think about that often, about what it would be like to send my daughter, who's 39, you know, hundreds of kilometers away, to Toronto or something like that, you know, to go to high school. And not knowing the people who she's living with and all of those things, it's, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (35:29.67)
Right. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (35:37.865)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a huge commitment. What would you describe is your church, Redwood Park's unique mission in the city? How would you describe that?

Milissa Ewing (35:50.59)
Yeah, over the past couple years, we entered into a discernment process about what God is calling, who is God calling us to be for this next season. And it's kind of part of Redwood's DNA for a while, but Redwood is a church for the city. I think you're probably part of that emerging vision, because I understand it goes back to like the late 90s or so. So Redwood is a church for the city.

Rob Chartrand (36:01.308)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (36:10.802)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (36:19.814)
And that was one of the things that really drew us here is if Redwood is going to be a church for the city, then Indigenous reconciliation has to be a big part of what we participate in. And yeah, so I'm Indigenous. I'm a member of the Namibia's First Nation and I'm white. So I'm both. I'm both mixed, you know. Yeah. So, so, so I, so I, and I personally have been felt, have been

Rob Chartrand (36:28.309)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (36:40.217)
Yeah, I know how you feel. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (36:50.134)
I know that reconciliation is my life calling as a pastor. That's my particular bent as a pastor. And calling churches to be churches of reconciliation. That we're known by our love. And are we actually loving one another well? And participating in God's reconciliation of all things out in the world. And so when Redwood, when we first came here and hearing that this is a church that wants to take this seriously,

Rob Chartrand (36:53.494)
Mm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (37:00.373)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (37:09.673)
Yes. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (37:18.718)
but doesn't necessarily know how. And I was able to say, well, I don't totally know how either, but let's figure it out together. And so, yeah, we discerned in the last couple of years that our vision is to be a church of reconciliation. And specifically to participate in God's reconciliation work in the city as he longs to reconcile all people to himself, to themselves, to each other and to the earth. So it's this fourfold mending of relationship.

Rob Chartrand (37:31.389)
Hmm. Okay.

Rob Chartrand (37:40.946)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. So, you know, I hear that and I know some of our listeners are going to go like, that doesn't sound like the gospel, like this work that she's doing. It sounds very like, I don't know, like liberal theological kind of stuff. So let's talk about the centrality of the gospel and reconciliation for you guys. Can you can you expand on that a little bit more?

Milissa Ewing (37:58.478)
Ha ha ha.

Milissa Ewing (38:05.646)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Milissa Ewing (38:12.558)
out.

I can't, yeah, yeah. It's...

Milissa Ewing (38:20.422)
Yeah, I mean, I've been thinking about this for seven or eight years or so, really. It's been a journey. And I first sense God calling me to participate in reconciliation, like 20 years ago, probably, when I was doing my education degree in Kamloops, actually, and did a tour of the residential school there, and just felt like God, just sense God's heart breaking for Indigenous people in Canada.

Rob Chartrand (38:26.691)
Mm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (38:35.293)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (38:47.446)
over the history, in particular because much of what has been done has been done in the name of Jesus. And so, yeah, I just really felt my heart breaking and didn't really understand that. And at 10th, I started to engage in some indigenous reconciliation kind of stuff a bit, but really what started to happen at 10th was God opening my eyes to this gospel of reconciliation in scripture and this thread of reconciliation and any kind of studies or anything I've done has always been now, okay, let's...

Rob Chartrand (39:09.746)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (39:16.782)
you know, as I slowly chip away at masters, so every paper I do, I'm like, okay, what new take can I, how can I delve into this theology of reconciliation or this gospel of reconciliation or this biblical story? And now I see it everywhere in scripture, but it starts at the very beginning in Genesis, where you see Adam and Eve living in four good relationships.

Rob Chartrand (39:31.314)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (39:43.363)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (39:46.676)
They're living in a good relationship with God, where we're meant to be living in a relationship with God, all humans. They are made for relationship with each other. The first time God says it is not good is when Adam is alone and he needs a partner. We're made for relationship with the earth. We're given this job to steward, to take care of the earth, to be caretakers of the earth as God would.

Rob Chartrand (39:57.448)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (40:09.201)
Yep.

Milissa Ewing (40:15.226)
And for a relationship with ourselves, like at the last Genesis, the last verse in Genesis two is that Adam and Eve were naked and they felt no shame. Like that word shame is that they were totally good in their identity. They know who they are in light of who God is. They're not self-conscious. They're not really thinking about themselves. Really, I think they're not self-involved. Their relationship with themselves is right.

Rob Chartrand (40:24.765)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (40:28.627)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (40:34.138)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (40:42.962)
And then in Genesis three, you see all those four relationships breaking down. So, you know, the relationship with God as they give into temptation is broken. The relationship with each other is broken. You know, Adam is blaming Eve and they put on these coverings over themselves. They're no longer vulnerable with one another. The relationship with the earth is broken. A friend pointed this out to me a number of years ago and that when they

Rob Chartrand (41:02.942)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (41:12.302)
pluck the fruit from the tree, that's an act of environmental degradation. They're using God's creation in a way that it was never intended to. They're exceeding the limitation that God has put on creation in that. So they're sinning against creation. They're breaking relationship with creation. And then of course, they're expelled from the garden too. So there's a further breaking of that. And then the relationship with themselves is broken as well.

Rob Chartrand (41:17.277)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (41:25.151)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (41:38.742)
you know, as they hide themselves from each other and they hide from God, that's shame in action, right? They're hiding away pieces of themselves and they're no longer basing their identity in who God is first and who am I in light of who God is. And then if you trace that through scripture, from those four broken relationships, you see this beautiful story of God's heart to reconcile all things.

Rob Chartrand (41:43.61)
Right. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (42:07.47)
through Israel, through the prophets calling people back. You see it in the work of Jesus, the reconciliation work of Jesus. And I think where we in the West, we talk about the cross and the work on the cross as forgiveness from sins was your course. It is, right?

Rob Chartrand (42:32.177)
Yep. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (42:34.07)
But forgiveness isn't just so we stand in a forgiven state, forgiveness is so we enter into relationship again. Like the end point is relationship, is reconciliation with God. And through that reconciliation with one another and with the earth and with ourselves, it's this work of peace. We as a board at Redwood, we debated over this for about a year.

Rob Chartrand (42:40.153)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (42:45.461)
That's right. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (43:00.729)
Okay. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (43:01.434)
We pulled out resources, we brought people in to speak to us, we read books. And what we came to see is that I think in the Western world, we like to like classify things. You know, it's this and this and this and this is kind of a modern thing. But in fact, they're intertwined with one another. It starts with God. But sometimes we, we...

Rob Chartrand (43:14.216)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (43:30.615)
We often hear people who are not followers of Jesus, they talk about, I feel God's presence when I'm out in creation. It's because we're wired for a relationship with God through being out in the earth. We're wired for that. And then if you follow through the thread right until Revelation, you see the reconciliation, the restoration of all things.

Rob Chartrand (43:53.193)
That's right. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (43:53.89)
this new heaven, this new earth, and all nation and tribe and time worshiping together, reconciled before God in this new heavenly garden city. And this in between time, we are called to be agents of reconciliation, to participate in this reconciliation work in the world. And God has given us this ministry and this message of reconciliation.

Rob Chartrand (44:10.653)
Hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (44:18.501)
Yes, yeah, love that, love that. And I love your expansive view of the gospel and of reconciliation. I think it's Scott McKnight in his book, King Jesus' Gospel, he talks about our truncated gospel. You know, and so when we think gospel, we think four spiritual laws, we think of just forgiveness from sins, and we also think it's very individualistic and it's personal, whereas...

Milissa Ewing (44:33.291)
Yes. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (44:43.345)
you know, the gospel is cosmic in its implications. It's far more expansive than just me and Jesus. It includes, as you say, all of those four aspects. I mean, that's what Paul would say, is that Christ has come to reconcile all things to himself. Right? And it's very easy for us as good modernists to just make it very individualistic and make it very much about me. And

Milissa Ewing (44:46.155)
Yes.

Milissa Ewing (44:57.638)
All things, yes. Yep.

Rob Chartrand (45:08.641)
And I think this is the beauty of, I would say, a First Nations worldview is this idea of our interconnectedness to the land. Like that's something that we cannot ignore. So you can't just kind of put on white gloves and treat the land as just this science project that you can do something with and not realize the effects that would have on you. Like there is an interconnect. There is a relationship to the land that we can't ignore.

Milissa Ewing (45:17.794)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (45:31.938)
Yeah, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (45:37.45)
Yes, yeah, for sure. And I really do think that, so our growing, our learning is to locate Indigenous reconciliation, racial reconciliation, family brokenness, any within the gospel of reconciliation. And then it begins to make sense. And what we're finding and what I'm finding is that this gospel of reconciliation,

Rob Chartrand (45:46.195)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (45:52.375)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (46:05.274)
is good news to people outside of the church. Like we live in a very fragmented, disintegrated world. You know, in every era of Christian history,

Rob Chartrand (46:08.161)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (46:19.266)
different people have responded to the gospel in different ways. And I am coming to believe more and more and more that this gospel of reconciliation is the good news for the world right now. Especially the younger generation. I mean, they see climate change and they see injustice and all of these pieces. And a God who came to reconcile all things and actually has an answer for it, the best answer.

Rob Chartrand (46:45.317)
The best dancer, yes. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (46:48.902)
And people know increasingly that the stories in the world are corrupt, and don't hold up anymore. All the common narratives in the world are beginning to break down and causing this angst and anxiety and all of these things. But we've been entrusted with this story that makes sense of it all.

Rob Chartrand (47:11.253)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think we'd like to ignore the environment. I mean, and that's kind of a knee-jerk. Almost want to say like a right.

a right political orientation is to minimize the environment. And it's not, it's actually very biblical to care about the environment. Like first in terms of creation care. But even as you said, like when you talk about the end times and where Christ is coming to reconcile all things, He will restore all things, which includes relationships. I mean, you have this image of the nations coming in and out of Jerusalem, you have the new creation and the new earth, but I love how NT Wright puts it, is that it's like a signpost.

Milissa Ewing (47:44.962)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (47:52.149)
pointing forward into the mist, right? And so who we are to be now, we are to be in practice then, like who we are to be in the great then is who we are to try and be now. So it's not like all the earth's gonna burn up in a ball of fire, so who cares? Like who cares about the environment? I don't think that's what Jesus wants for us. He wants us to live now in a reconciled world. It won't be perfect till he comes back, but we have to work on that and not just our individual spirituality, right?

Milissa Ewing (47:52.79)
Yes, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (48:02.775)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (48:10.891)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (48:14.806)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (48:20.406)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it just, I mean, we're starting to see it in Redwood because we've been talking about reconciliation pretty, I mean, every week, it's our vision. We've been talking about it every week for about two years now. And we've grown, when we first got here, we would look out and see primarily a white church. And when I look out on Sunday morning, I am seeing a multi-ethnic church.

Rob Chartrand (48:28.786)
Yeah, what's that look like?

Rob Chartrand (48:47.603)
Wow.

Milissa Ewing (48:48.806)
It's, we've grown in, I mean, we've got a lot of newcomers to Canada in Thunder Bay. There's a settling Northern Ontario initiative that has resulted in the demographic of Thunder Bay changing. But, you know, as I chat with people, like what's drawing you to Redwood, this reconciliation vision is aligned with other cultures in the world too. You know, relationship based cultures.

Rob Chartrand (48:55.636)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (49:12.044)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (49:17.917)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (49:18.67)
resonate, because it makes sense. And we're growing with Indigenous attenders as well. My husband Jay preached a sermon a year and a half ago, it was the first one here at Redwood on caring for creation, it was a Christian calling. And he had a number of Indigenous attenders coming up afterwards saying, that's the first time I've heard my culture and my faith in Jesus come together.

Rob Chartrand (49:35.118)
Mm. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (49:47.106)
Like I thought it was different, but actually, there's something healing in this that goes beyond just we're supposed to do this. It's almost like a I see in you. Like Jesus sees in our indigenous brothers and sisters, something very beautiful that he planted within humanity to live rightly with the land.

Rob Chartrand (49:47.278)
Hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (49:57.125)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (50:00.681)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (50:08.169)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, I know since you've been here at Thunder Bay, you've had some leadership challenges. I mean, you came during COVID, obviously, which is a huge challenge. And we, we know a bit about that. But since you've come, there've been some really difficult moments in your leadership. I wonder if you could share with us a little bit about those. And maybe touch on how are you seeing Jesus at work in the midst of those?

Milissa Ewing (50:21.124)
Ha ha ha.

Milissa Ewing (50:36.886)
Yeah, one of the things that we were aware of before we came here is that fairly recently in Redwood's history, before we got here, like within a couple of years, there was some clergy abuse, some sexual abuse happening in the congregation with a youth pastor and some students over a period of seven years, quite devastating, really hard.

Rob Chartrand (50:49.119)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (51:06.066)
As we got here, we began to see this is a community that still needs healing from this. And, uh, and of course this, it happened and, and it became known before COVID and before we began to understand, um, abuses of power in the church and clergy abuse and what that looks like. And so even the last couple of years has reframed.

Rob Chartrand (51:11.346)
Right. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (51:34.058)
I think that just the churches in general thinking about how to handle situations when abuse issues come up. So anyways, all that to say, our board and our district office, our Christian Missionary Alliance, our district office, our district superintendent and our national president, we all came together and hired an outside organization to come in and take a look at our story.

Rob Chartrand (52:00.434)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (52:04.25)
What happened? What were the conditions that allowed this to happen? And then they put together a report. Essentially it was like a truth and reconciliation commission at Redwood. They came, they interviewed 50 people or so from Redwood, past and present. Put out a report, 70 page report with 13 recommendations.

Rob Chartrand (52:15.954)
Okay.

Wow. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (52:28.095)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (52:30.226)
We read out the report and made it available to people who attend present Redwood now and in the past. And then a couple weeks later on Pentecost Sunday had a service, a sacred assembly or solemn assembly where we had our district superintendent and our national president and our board past and present.

Rob Chartrand (52:37.35)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (52:50.194)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (52:59.222)
Pastoral staff really just asking for forgiveness from the community. Um, and, um, yeah, for the things that, yeah, I just makes me tear up a little bit. Um, it was a service of confession and, and lament really.

Rob Chartrand (53:03.634)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (53:21.582)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (53:23.358)
And I think it's fitting that it was Pentecost Sunday because something happened.

Milissa Ewing (53:30.898)
the people who were there, the presence of God was very present, like very, very there in the room. It was a very powerful night and we felt like it was a significant turning point for us. God loves it when we repent. He loves it when we confess and we tell the truth and we bring justice. And so now we're in a season where we've got these 13 recommendations and we're beginning to implement them.

Rob Chartrand (53:35.421)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (53:42.566)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (53:49.651)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (53:57.486)
Okay. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (53:58.594)
And we've committed to the church, the board formally adopted them, that we accept the report and these recommendations. And so now we're implementing them and then reporting back to the church on our progress and regular intervals. So one of those is establishing a redemptive healing team. So we've got seven Redwood people who are made up of like trauma therapists and doctors and social workers from our community. And they've been undergoing all sorts of training in the last

three months and their role now will be to get in touch with or to be available to those who are affected by the clergy abuse and then to walk with people, hear stories, help them find resources for healing and whatever that looks like. But yeah, we don't totally know. Like we're just kind of figuring out as we go. But what we're sensing is just God's pleasure.

Rob Chartrand (54:35.346)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (54:57.495)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (54:57.554)
in this. And we're seeing people are accepting Jesus for the first time. And we're seeing healing happening. And our young adult community telling us that the report tells their story of what they experienced at Redwood, you know? So it's capturing a story that they've been walking with for years that wasn't known to everybody. But we're seeing like these little

Rob Chartrand (55:06.13)
Wow.

Rob Chartrand (55:14.153)
Hmm. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (55:24.47)
like just incredible spiritual growth in our young adult community. It's just so, it's so awesome. We love them. Yeah, our young adults ministry is great.

Rob Chartrand (55:30.077)
Yeah. So our number of those who experienced the abuse, some of them still part of the church community, church family.

Milissa Ewing (55:41.81)
Uh, yeah, we've begun walking with a couple people. Um, I don't know the names of all the people. Um, uh, so, you know, we've, I did the way there are about probably nine, at least nine people, um, but yeah, we, but Jay and I have begun walking with a couple, a couple of people and, and I think it was this, the report. Um,

Rob Chartrand (55:44.893)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (55:48.241)
Yeah, okay, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (55:56.534)
Mm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (56:08.332)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (56:08.71)
And the process is we're calling the redemptive healing process. We think it's the process that really it opened doors and when trust has been broken, you got to work really hard to.

Rob Chartrand (56:12.082)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (56:18.661)
Yeah, yeah. Trust is trust is broken easily gained slowly. It takes a long time to regain that.

Milissa Ewing (56:19.95)
to, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (56:24.478)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we really felt as a church that if God is calling us to be a community of reconciliation in the city, almost as if God is like, you're not allowed to participate in the work of the city until you do reconcile in house first. You got these abuses of power and sexual abuse that has happened right in your community and you gotta make that right.

Rob Chartrand (56:33.564)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (56:40.601)
Right. Yeah. So good. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (56:50.014)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (56:54.63)
And out of that, I will raise up a people. I will transform the community through this process and make you into the people I need you to be so that you can participate in this reconciliation work in the city.

Rob Chartrand (57:09.905)
Yeah, yeah, that is so important. And I think a number of churches that, it's really quick to just jump back into ministry as usual, you know, and ignore the things that have happened before. And you can't ignore those things. You have to work it out, as you say. And I really appreciate the process you guys went through, the deliberate, thoughtful,

process. I appreciate the lament. Like that I think that's just so right and so good to lament and we don't do that very well. As Christians in the Western world, it's largely missing from much of our liturgy is lament.

Milissa Ewing (57:53.71)
Yeah, yeah, and we've got a really great worship pastor. There is Sean Barron. Sean brings a unique, a maturity and a wisdom in his worship leading that he can, he's leading our community in this lament, that this ongoing

Rob Chartrand (57:58.989)
Okay. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (58:13.734)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (58:18.882)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (58:21.394)
And he leaves space in our services for confession and repentance and lament. And yeah, he's really key to all of this, helping us to be a community of worshipers, but truthful worshipers, honest worshipers, you know?

Rob Chartrand (58:26.003)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (58:36.468)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (58:40.113)
Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Let's talk a little bit about your city then now. Recently there's this four part documentary that was released on Crave called Thunder Bay. And it's trying to bring light to the story of seven First Nations youth who died. And it kind of paints the city in a pretty dark light. And I think you and I talked about this beforehand.

Milissa Ewing (58:53.632)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (59:05.954)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (59:08.609)
Have you seen the series? And if you did, what do you think of it?

Milissa Ewing (59:11.722)
Yeah. I have not seen it, but not because I don't plan to see it, but because I know it's going to be heavy. And this last year with what we've been doing at Redwood has been heavy. So I felt like I needed to be in the right space to watch it. However, I did read a book about Thunder Bay coming here, Seven Fallen Feathers.

Rob Chartrand (59:15.333)
Okay. Right.

Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (59:27.569)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (59:34.065)
Yeah, do it in stages.

Rob Chartrand (59:39.717)
Yes. And that was the predecessor to the to the that's kind of spawned the series, isn't it?

Milissa Ewing (59:41.343)
which can't be it.

Yes, yeah, yeah. So, so, so yes, I moved into Thunder Bay. I mean, that was the one piece that we haven't really talked about is like, when we moved here, my dad was like, why are you moving to like one of the most racist places in Canada? That was his reaction as an Indigenous man. And reading the book about Indigenous youth.

Rob Chartrand (01:00:02.961)
Wow. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:00:09.374)
And then there was a pretty significant court case that was happening when we were here about an Indigenous woman who had been murdered. And, um, and it was a, uh, racially motivated murder. And, and, uh, so this was in the news and, and I was following this. I was following that before we actually moved here at the whole court case. Cause I think Indigenous people in Canada are aware of Thunder Bay. Um.

Rob Chartrand (01:00:27.743)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:00:38.926)
Uh, and, um, so one of the things that I had to overcome when we came here was my own fear. Like, like I felt, I found this piece around like being afraid to let people know that I'm indigenous, um, because I was afraid of.

Rob Chartrand (01:00:48.145)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:01:03.794)
I was just afraid. Just afraid. It didn't feel safe. So I try to look as white as possible sometimes and then I'm like, wait, what am I doing? And then I'm being faced with my own, my own...

Rob Chartrand (01:01:07.243)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:01:15.241)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:01:20.07)
hypocrisy in my own life, you know, like this or this lack of an integrated identity in my own life. And there's one particular time where it became really clear to me. So I have these beautiful beaded earrings that my brother got me and I was wearing them one day. And as I was driving down the road, I paused and I noticed some people look at me and they, and I could tell that they saw me as an Indigenous woman as I was driving. It's just, you could just tell. You just tell the way.

Rob Chartrand (01:01:21.668)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:01:47.557)
Yes. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:01:48.978)
And I immediately was like, oh no, I wore the wrong earrings today. And I'm like, wait, what are you doing? Like, this is who I am. And I believe there's strength that comes from being an Indigenous woman. And so for me, this last three years of being part of Thunder Bay and kind of hearing the story of Thunder Bay and being called in this ministry of reconciliation, there's also something that's reconciliation in my own identity, or God's.

Rob Chartrand (01:01:52.777)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:01:57.35)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:02:04.561)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:02:16.648)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:02:19.594)
It's like, no more, I'm not letting you separate out your whiteness and your indigenousness. It's coming together. It's time. And as it's happening, as I'm becoming more and more, as I grow more in my relationship with God, I realize more and more.

Rob Chartrand (01:02:26.385)
Hmm. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:02:41.674)
that perhaps my outlook on life is more culturally indigenous than I realized it was. And I actually think that's a gift to the world and a gift to the church. The indigenous people have this gift. And so yeah, it's, they're really beautiful people here in Thunder Bay, but there is a population of people in Thunder Bay who live with fear. And

Rob Chartrand (01:02:48.512)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:03:03.035)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:03:07.922)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:03:11.49)
Um, God wants to break that.

Rob Chartrand (01:03:15.185)
Yeah. You know, it's so interesting you say that. I mean, I can remember in my own family history, like with my father's generation and his siblings, how much they tried to not be First Nations, like in the sense that like they, they would say, no, don't let people know, like, so there was a secret that they tried to keep. And which is a can be a very damaging thing to a people because then you're you are dealing with shame.

Milissa Ewing (01:03:29.112)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:03:34.506)
Yeah, yes.

Rob Chartrand (01:03:44.757)
about your origin or you delve into secrecy. Secrecy becomes such a big, and I mean nothing good grows in secrecy, right? So, you know, and I think that changed. Like for me growing up, like in the 90s, I was very proud and First Nations and willing to say it and didn't care, you know, didn't give a rip. But I think so something that changed culturally a little bit for me compared to my dad's generation, right? That had come before.

Milissa Ewing (01:03:46.253)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:03:53.238)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:04:07.426)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:04:14.365)
But there still is this sense of this, I don't know what it is, of the tendency to be ashamed that's kind of rooted in a history of a people.

Milissa Ewing (01:04:20.886)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, like my grandma used to say, you are not First Nations, you are white. Like it was very, and I mean, clearly she was First Nations, like there's no, like she, like obviously, but was very much, yeah. So there's this like thing planted that like if you have the option,

Rob Chartrand (01:04:32.342)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:04:38.733)
Right. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:04:49.117)
the seed yeah

Milissa Ewing (01:04:54.374)
if you this piece that was planted in us, that if you had this, wasn't it? I don't know. Probably another conversation. But if you have the option in this particular setting of passing as white, or passing as First Nations, the safer option, and the option is going to open more doors, it's going to be white. Right. And so you learn

Rob Chartrand (01:05:17.437)
Yeah, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:05:21.31)
a particular way of being or a certain particular way of presenting yourself. Uh, and, um, yeah, it's tragic. That's, that's the broken relationship with ourselves.

Rob Chartrand (01:05:30.93)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:05:35.269)
There's a reconciliation problem there, yeah, for sure. And the beauty of the gospel is Jesus has come to restore that. I mean, every culture is broken. Every culture, it doesn't matter what culture you come from in the world, and there's no sacred culture. But God does not divorce our humanity from our culture. Like, that's why the nation's plural form will be coming in and out of Jerusalem.

Milissa Ewing (01:05:37.611)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:05:42.84)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:06:00.261)
right, that there's a retention of this beautiful kaleidoscope of cultures that's going to continue on.

Milissa Ewing (01:06:00.888)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:06:05.93)
Yeah, I had this really powerful image one day, actually it was as I was preparing a sermon. So again, I guess another moment of God being very present with me, so I was writing a sermon, but I was reflecting on and studying this picture of all the nations together in Revelation. And what hit me is my people will be there and

Rob Chartrand (01:06:25.849)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:06:34.587)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:06:35.862)
We will hear Quackwalla.

Rob Chartrand (01:06:39.099)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:06:41.406)
in the throne room of heaven. We will hear song sung in Kwakwala. And I don't speak Kwakwala. I only know like two or three words. But I just found myself praying, God, when I'm in that place, I hope that I can understand and speak Kwakwala. Because I think something that'll be part of the reconciliation of all things, you know, because language carries so much.

Rob Chartrand (01:06:43.039)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:06:46.674)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:07:07.141)
Yeah, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:07:10.463)
and worldview and whatnot.

Rob Chartrand (01:07:12.053)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. A sign pointing off into the future. Yeah. So how has your First Nations background been an asset for your leadership in your church in Thunder Bay?

Milissa Ewing (01:07:17.995)
Yes.

Milissa Ewing (01:07:28.554)
Yeah, I mean.

Milissa Ewing (01:07:32.638)
Some of these pieces around understanding this or understanding, learning about this gospel of reconciliation, just, part of it is helping me to understand my own identity. But I think because I am First Nations and also white, I think my unique place in the church is that I can speak to both communities.

Rob Chartrand (01:07:41.557)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:07:59.337)
Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:08:04.506)
And I think that's probably one of the reasons why our church is growing in a multi-ethnic presence. So, you know, sometimes I'll even do that. I'll be like, okay, I'm going to put on a white hat right now. I'm going to say, brothers and sisters, this is what we need to, this is what's going on. This is what we need to see. Okay, from an Indigenous perspective.

Rob Chartrand (01:08:09.181)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:08:24.486)
Yeah, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:08:31.198)
I think this is what's happening here. And so there's a reconciling piece in there. Really, I think I'm called to be a bridge in all of it. Yeah. It's a translating one to the other piece.

Rob Chartrand (01:08:40.377)
Okay. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Has it hindered you in any way? No. Wow.

Milissa Ewing (01:08:49.138)
No, it has not. No. Yeah, I haven't experienced any hindrance. And I think what you, what you alluded to, I bet we're in a different moment right now in history. There's a new openness, a new understanding and things of, you know, historical wrongs have been brought to the light for the general Canadian population. Uh, so there's a, there is a new openness. I haven't felt any hindrance. Or in fact, it seems like there are more open doors.

Rob Chartrand (01:08:59.357)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:09:09.279)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:09:15.124)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:09:18.481)
Hmm. Yeah, beautiful. One of the things we didn't touch on my wonder if we could just touch on it really quickly is your husband Jay is also a pastor on your staff team. And I know you guys work together at 10th Church, but now you're essentially his boss. How's that? How's that working out for you both? How do you make it work?

Milissa Ewing (01:09:20.67)
Um, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:09:33.901)
Yes.

Milissa Ewing (01:09:44.877)
Yeah, so, we've, I mean, we worked together on the same staff team before long enough to know how he's wired and how I'm wired, and his spiritual gifts and my spiritual gifts and to know that we're different. So where I'm weak, Jay just shines. And where he's weak, those are my areas of strength. And so, so learning.

Rob Chartrand (01:09:58.589)
Hmm. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:10:04.774)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:10:10.558)
learning to work with one another and not step on each other's toes. You know, it's, I mean, we've been married for 23 years. So I can, yeah, we can say to each other, that's not in your real house. Let me solve this problem, you know, or he'll be like, Melissa, let me meet with those people like you're not going to handle this particular thing. Well, I gotta do it. And so

Rob Chartrand (01:10:14.993)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:10:20.841)
He's getting used to it.

Rob Chartrand (01:10:25.893)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:10:32.421)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think you said pastoral care is not your wheelhouse.

Milissa Ewing (01:10:39.206)
Yeah, yes. Yeah, like, yeah, it's, it's good. And so how it works practically is we both report to the board. So, so on a day to day basis, I'm a lead pastor, and it's like this kind of a dotted line to me, if you think about an org chart with solid and dotted lines, but Jay reports to the board. So the board does his annual and mid year review. And you know, he'll meet with our board chair, just like I meet with her.

Rob Chartrand (01:10:47.23)
Okay.

Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:10:54.274)
Okay. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:10:58.896)
Okay.

Milissa Ewing (01:11:09.078)
So, yeah, I mean, it does, we have also had to put in some pretty strict rules that I find these days actually, we need to re-institute them. Like we don't talk about work once dinner's on the table. You know, so we actually, we try to talk about it all on the way home and sometimes we'll drive for a really long drive because we've got to get it out. And we find that the biggest thing that ends up happening like that to our detriment is.

Rob Chartrand (01:11:16.554)
Sure.

Rob Chartrand (01:11:23.162)
Okay.

Rob Chartrand (01:11:30.03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:11:36.106)
We have a hard time scheduling a meeting at work to talk about the work stuff, and we end up talking about it at home, and then it spills into home and all that. But we try as best as we can, when dinner goes on the table, we're done talking about church at all. And then if there's still stuff that we have to talk about, or there's an evening board meeting, or whatever it is, the next rule is we don't talk about it in front of our kids.

Rob Chartrand (01:11:40.981)
Okay.

Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:11:50.825)
Hmm. Yeah, that's a good discipline. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:12:06.058)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:12:06.166)
which also is, you know, we're not perfect at, but pastors' kids always know far more than they really should about the inner workings of the church, but yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:12:08.657)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:12:18.693)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, but you hope they pray and pray they grow to love it as much as you do. Yeah

Milissa Ewing (01:12:24.286)
Yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, so we've got a couple of disciplines. And then when we came here, we were very much like if we're both going to work here, we need to have our holiday time together off. So it's going to be harder for the church, you know, like, yeah, you know, or when it comes time for sabbatical coming down the road, we got to take our sabbatical together, because it's not going to feel like a sabbatical if one of us is working here still.

Rob Chartrand (01:12:37.353)
Hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:12:40.697)
Right. I guess right two leaders gone. Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:12:50.631)
Wow.

Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:12:55.398)
So there's very real considerations and our board was okay with that.

Rob Chartrand (01:13:02.757)
Yeah, well, it sounds like you need a third senior associate there to cover the bases while you're while all those things are happening.

Milissa Ewing (01:13:08.278)
Yeah, we're actually in the process of looking for an executive pastor. So if anybody listening is feeling called to be an executive pastor, we're, we're working on that job description right now.

Rob Chartrand (01:13:13.478)
Yeah, okay.

Rob Chartrand (01:13:20.541)
That's right. Yeah. So Canada's winter wonderland, tons of trees, good mountains, 20 minutes to the slopes, and not as much rain year round as Vancouver. Sunny. And a lake the size of an ocean. Yeah. Good. Well, we'll, we'll post on their contact information for you.

Milissa Ewing (01:13:23.549)
Yep.

Milissa Ewing (01:13:28.407)
Yep.

Milissa Ewing (01:13:31.786)
No, sunny, sunny all winter. Yes. Yep.

Rob Chartrand (01:13:47.577)
If you're okay with that, how would people how could people get in touch with you? Do we just direct them to the website?

Milissa Ewing (01:13:53.994)
Yeah, the website's good. Yeah, our contact info is there. And yeah, Jay, we didn't really talk much about Jay, but Jay is also a spiritual director. And he provides spiritual direction to pastors primarily. I don't think he has room for anybody new now, but maybe he does. I don't know. Anyway, he has a real passion for the health of pastors. And...

Rob Chartrand (01:14:04.094)
Hmm. Okay.

Rob Chartrand (01:14:20.041)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:14:23.814)
And so, yeah, he's always open to connecting with.

Yeah, at whatever stage with pastors, yeah, in the law.

Rob Chartrand (01:14:32.745)
Sure, sure. Awesome. Yeah, and we all need that. So yeah, by all means. And then he can get contact on the website as well. Perfect. Well, this has been great. I wonder if we could close with you maybe sharing with our listeners. Some of our leaders might be going through a major crisis in their ministry right now. I wonder if you could give a final word of encouragement to them.

Milissa Ewing (01:14:41.462)
Yep, yep, we're both on our website, yep. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:14:59.562)
Yeah, I knew you were going to ask this. So I'm praying about this for the last couple of days. God, what word of encouragement do you have for anybody who's listening? And what came to mind is a story from scripture that has been a pretty key story for me, for us, back when we were at 10th and even here at Redwood especially. It's from 2 Chronicles 20.

Rob Chartrand (01:15:19.327)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:15:30.71)
King Jehoshaphat, I mean, if you go back in 7 Chronicles 18, he was with King Ahab and he saw how not to lead. Not listening to the Lord, not listening to the prophets, charging ahead in your own steam and your own plans without turning to the Lord. And then you get to 2 Chronicles 20 and disaster's coming.

Rob Chartrand (01:15:44.744)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:15:58.882)
He's received word that the armies are coming and he doesn't know what to do. Um, and he, he begins to lament and cry out to the Lord. And what I, what has been so formational for me in this is that he calls all of Judah together at the temple, like, like every person, um, men, women, children together to cry out to the Lord. And then he prays this really long and expensive prayer and in, in view of everybody, so everybody hears this prayer.

Rob Chartrand (01:16:24.451)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:16:28.374)
that he's praying and he is the king. And so he's reminding God of God's promises and what God promised to do and if we follow you and yad, yad. And then he gets to the end and he says, for we have no power to face this vast army that is attacking us. We do not know what to do, but our eyes are on you. And there's this beautiful permission there as pastors and as leaders.

Rob Chartrand (01:16:50.673)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:16:57.806)
to humbly admit before people that we don't know what we're doing. You know, so like crisis comes and we are, we're in this new world of ministry. And really, honestly, nobody knows what is coming. And we don't, you know, we're kind of like building the airplane while we're flying in the air. And the most appropriate prayer, not just for ourselves, but in view of our people that we're leading.

Rob Chartrand (01:17:04.615)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:17:18.621)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:17:25.919)
Mm-hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:17:26.098)
is we don't know what to do God, but our eyes are on you. There's this humility that's modeled and it takes us as the pastors off the pedestal. You know, we're not the people that have to solve it. It's actually, Jesus is the head of the church. And so our eyes are on you, Jesus. You gotta come through, because this army's coming and we have no idea how to handle this. And then once you watch that, after that prayer happens, you just start seeing things begin to happen. Like a prophet stands up with a word.

Rob Chartrand (01:17:28.945)
Yeah.

Rob Chartrand (01:17:39.358)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:17:56.438)
And this prophet stands up with this word that says, this battle is not yours, but God's, and you will not have to fight this battle. Take up your position, stand firm, and see the deliverance that he will give you. Do not be afraid, do not be discouraged. Go out to face them tomorrow, and the Lord will be with you. And then when they do go out the next day, King Jehoshaphat puts the worshipers at the front of the line. The worshipers are in front of all of the warriors.

Rob Chartrand (01:18:19.814)
Hmm.

Milissa Ewing (01:18:24.706)
and they're praying and it says that as they began to sing and praise, the Lord said, ambushes against the opposing armies. So they really did nothing. They prayed. They listened to how God was speaking, and in this case, it's through a prophet, and they worship and God did what only God can do. And I think that we're in this. I think that's where we're at. And yeah, I find incredible freedom in this.

Rob Chartrand (01:18:42.734)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Chartrand (01:18:50.117)
Yeah, yeah. So good. Yes. Yeah, so good. So good. Yeah. Well, thank you for that word. And thank you for your time. I really appreciate this conversation. And I know it's going to be a blessing to our leaders as they hear it. So we'll have to get you back here on the podcast again sometime in the future. And yeah, thanks for being with us. Yeah. See you again soon. Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:18:55.874)
Yeah.

Milissa Ewing (01:19:12.302)
Yeah, great to be here. Yeah, and thank you for all that you're doing and providing this space for us to learn from one another.

Rob Chartrand (01:19:20.657)
Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Bless you, we'll see you again soon.

Milissa Ewing (01:19:23.81)
Thanks.