Rob Chartrand (00:02.656)
Well, hey, we are excited to have on Church in the North, Grover Bradford, the only Grover I know, besides that furry blue monster. He is the discipleship pastor Heritage Christian Academy in Calgary, and he's here for our summer series, The Old Youth Guys. And he's been at it for quite a while. We're gonna find out about that. Grover, welcome to Church in the North.
Grover (00:09.776)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Grover (00:26.096)
Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate the invite. It's good seeing your face, Rob. Really good seeing you.
Rob Chartrand (00:30.944)
Yeah. And for our listeners, just so they know, if Grover and I see overly familiar, we go way back. We did youth ministry together way back in the GTA. He was down in Scarborough. I was just a little bit more North in Markham, Ontario. And we actually played basketball together on a team. Do you remember that? Yeah.
Grover (00:38.32)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (00:46.416)
Mm -hmm. We did. It was fun. I do remember that. Yeah, shout out to Karamich. We'll just, we'll say that. Get old. Come on.
Rob Chartrand (00:53.376)
That's right. Our man, Karam. Yeah. So let's go back. We want to hear your story. How did you end up in youth ministry, Grover?
Grover (01:01.648)
Mm -hmm.
You know what, that is a long story and I want to keep it as short as humanly possible. I didn't grow up in the church context, so it was not my thing. After graduating from this great institution called Briar Crest, I think you probably heard of it. Yeah, I know, right? It's one of those things where you get married and then all of a sudden there is this, what am I going to do with my life? And I was coming out of a degree, not really knowing what to do. I had...
Rob Chartrand (01:19.296)
Come on.
Grover (01:33.168)
I had a few experiences with youth playing basketball, coaching basketball, those types of things. As I graduated, I got a phone call from an organization called Young Life and jumped on that. I did that for two years in Calgary. And that was kind of my initial baptism into the youth ministry world. I had grown up in a daycare my whole life, so I don't know if that counts. I think it actually gave me some skills and abilities how to work with the youngins.
But young life was kind of my baptism into campus ministry in schools. Was not really interested into the church gig because I didn't even know what a youth class really was. But the kind of young life thing here in Calgary was my first initial. The thing that was obviously the toughest was something about raising your support. And I'm like, you're not going to pay me to do this, right? So I had to reach out to a family who was not, you know, my family was not super supportive. They're like, get a real job.
Rob Chartrand (02:22.688)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (02:32.672)
Right, yeah.
Grover (02:32.688)
And so that sort of, you know, took me away from the Young Life thing, but I can tell you about that story a little bit later. But that was, yeah, Young Life was kind of the...
Rob Chartrand (02:38.656)
Yeah. Yeah. And I can imagine like not growing up in the church, you didn't have as many connections for that type of, you know, a support base.
Grover (02:47.728)
zero. So my wife's family was hugely supportive in that time. But beyond that, yeah, it was tough slugging. It was a lot of craft dinner. It was, man, just pinching the pennies for those first couple years of marriage, for sure. That was 93. no, no, no, I take that back, 91.
Rob Chartrand (02:59.232)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (03:03.712)
Yeah. So what year would that have been?
Rob Chartrand (03:10.56)
Okay, yeah, that's around when I got started.
wow.
Grover (03:14.672)
It was 91 to 93 that I was actually a part of Young Life. Yeah, so.
Rob Chartrand (03:19.776)
Yeah. So you've you've obviously been in a number of different youth ministry roles for, you know, for in your history. Why don't you break those down for us? Where have you served?
Grover (03:29.616)
Okay, well, man, starting with Young Life and then in 93, recognizing that this whole raising support thing's not working out. A buddy of mine in Toronto, his name's, you know, good old Byron Stewart was like, hey, we're doing a thing just north of Toronto. And we kind of want to try something different. And even when he said is that we want to get away from that stereotypical kind of youth pastor role. And I'm like, please do share. I'm not even sure I know what that means. He's like,
come and take what you've learned at Good Old Young Life and bring it into the church context. And I'm like, I'm good with that. I'm curious, is this like a paying gig? And he's like, 100%. I'm like, okay, we'll be there in 72 hours. So we literally packed things up. We headed towards Toronto really not knowing what was gonna happen and recognizing that, no babies, no.
Rob Chartrand (04:20.448)
You didn't have kids at this time, right? Yeah, okay. Yep.
Grover (04:24.496)
No, absolutely not. But I remember driving up the Don Valley Parkway into this like fields of, you know, not I know mustard and wheat going care. I remember looking over at my wife going, Carrie, I'm sorry. I don't know what we're doing here right now. Pretty much. And recognizing as you walk into a church and it was your first real kind of church experience outside of Briar Crest. And they're saying, Hey, yeah, you're the new youth pastor. And I'm like,
Rob Chartrand (04:39.616)
So you're in Hicksville.
Grover (04:52.176)
You want to fill me in what that actually means? And so they came alongside me and sort of, I would say, discipled me in the ways of kind of church programming. That was my first gig. I spent about, how many years was I there? About seven years. A small little, that was at Springville Baptist. Yeah, sure was. I got thrown into a camping ministry and I mean, I don't do camp. So when you're told, yeah, and by the way, you'll be the program director at this camp just down the street. I was like.
Rob Chartrand (05:06.784)
Was that at Springvale?
Rob Chartrand (05:21.376)
man.
Grover (05:22.736)
This is terrifying, but man, it was so amazing.
Rob Chartrand (05:24.96)
So, so is that a bit of a bait and switch for you? Because I thought you said that they were going to get you to work with youth outside the church and then you were in this church.
Grover (05:31.888)
Yeah, yeah. It was kind of like this perfect trifecta of you got an office at the church, you have an office actually at Stogall District Secondary School, and you're going to coach and coach and coach and coach. And then during the summer, when all the kids are basically out doing their thing, the best place we feel for you is going to be at this camp. And so it was a good mix. And actually, it was a beautiful relationship in terms of all three because it connected.
Rob Chartrand (05:53.952)
Okay.
Grover (06:02.128)
all these relationships and families together in different ways. So it ended up being a lot, but initially, man, I was, I was terrified. I was just like, just kind of being thrown into the deep end. It was like, you got to tread water, right? You got to tread, you got to figure this out. So yeah. So after seven years there, a church in Markham came calling and they're just saying, we're a small little fellowship Baptist church. Heard of you, any interest? And right away I was like, not a chance in France, no desire.
Rob Chartrand (06:05.088)
Okay.
Grover (06:29.936)
And of course, when you say those words, God's like, yeah, it's time. It's time for you to move on to something different and a new challenge. So that's what I did and spent five years there. And that was the moment where I recognized, I mean, I learned a lot of things in that moment, but it's like, when you come into a church context, what's a culture like and can you work with the lead guy? And that was something that I had always worked with people that we had this amazing relationship. And then all of a sudden it was like,
Wow, this is a challenge. Someone doesn't really like me that much. How can that be? Anyway, moving on from there, I recognize, yeah, it's, you know what? I've learned what I needed to learn here. And then first Alliance and Scarborough. Came to Collin after a few years and headed there and I think it was around 2000.
Rob Chartrand (07:02.88)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (07:17.632)
Was Ross the senior pastor when you got there or was it someone else?
Grover (07:19.632)
Ross was actually, Ross Ingham was actually just kind of moving, sort of transitioning out. He was in the process of Mr. Edwards, Bruce Edwards, kind of handing off the ropes to him. So I saw this really healthy succession transition point, but I got to be like front lines and see what that looked like. And that was absolutely an amazing experience. So yeah, spent some really quality good years at first and
Honey came to a point, we have kids now and we're like, you know what? Do we stay in this beautiful chaos that we're currently in and raise our children here? Or there is a potential opportunity out west, out back out in the promised land where I came from. Karen, do you want to move back? And we had, we had a few things were kind of like confirmations to us when, when your house sells in a matter of like seven hours after putting it on the market. It was like, yeah, you know what?
I think it's time to head west. So I headed out to Center Street Church, spent almost 15 years there, many different roles. I would say probably anywhere from 10 to 12 different roles. Over the 15 years I was actually there, which is pretty crazy. Dude, man, it was just, it was so much fun just because they were just constantly giving me new challenges and new opportunities. And then it came to the point of this thing called COVID and I was like, I don't want to just talk to people on the phone. I don't want to just, you know.
Rob Chartrand (08:31.264)
Wow. That's a growing church. That's why. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (08:47.776)
Hmm. Yeah.
Grover (08:49.36)
And so I was like, you know what, I think it's time to really step out, see what God has for the next season. So when you leave a ministry position, not knowing where you're going to land, terrifying for pastors, right? Absolutely terrifying. But stepped out and God was faithful in so many ways. A Christian school of all things came calling saying, hey, we're looking for a discipleship pastor. We've kind of shaken all the bushes. We have interviewed tons and tons of people. You know, it's like, I was kind of the desperation move.
So okay, so you're desperate, so you're just looking for somebody like no we feel like and you're good with working with the young ins you can also understand the older kids and jumped into that opportunity and that's where I've been the last four years so coming up on it's finishing up four full years here at Heritage Christian Academy here in Calgary. So yeah.
Rob Chartrand (09:36.928)
Yeah. So you dabbled though for a while there around that COVID time in missional community, you know, frost, tangible kingdom, Soma, all of that kind of stuff. What was that all about?
Grover (09:43.632)
man, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All that. man, that was brilliant. That was getting the opportunity where we were, we're living in Airdrie and I remember when, you know, multi -site was just kind of taken off and I'd been working in Calgary. Airdrie is about a 20 minute drive north and the leadership came calling saying, Hey, what do you think about a campus in Airdrie? And I'm like, yeah. But like, you think there's enough people there? And I'm like, Airdrie has, Airdrie has over a thousand people.
from Center Street, Central Campus that are driving down the Deerford every weekend. I'm convinced that if we started some type of thing there, people would absolutely gravitate to that. And they really did. They were really looking for a different expression of Center Street up in a city that loves to work in Calgary, but doesn't really want to visit it too much, if I can use those terms, right? And yeah, so we jumped into the missional thing and it was absolutely like changing so many things.
Rob Chartrand (10:38.336)
Right?
Grover (10:46.576)
So I was so used to just providing programs for kids and families. And all of a sudden, it's like, literally, here's a total different way of life. That includes youth, that includes their parents, that includes grandma and grandpa, that includes their little brothers and sisters. And so youth ministry for us in those days really turned into more of an intergenerational. I don't want to call it a brand, but an expression, an intergenerational expression. And it was a beautiful thing for about five years.
And then, you know, COVID kind of had a way of shutting some things down, but it was amazing.
Rob Chartrand (11:21.184)
Now, did it feel like for you in some ways it was like coming full circle? Because I mean, you didn't grow up in the church, like you didn't have this, for me it's the same thing with my experience with missional community is I feel comfortable with people who are far from God and not in the church. I don't feel awkward. I don't feel like for me it's like, and part of it I think is just because I didn't grow up in the church and I, you know, and I got saved, you know, in my late teens or, you know, almost 20 kind of age.
Grover (11:33.104)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (11:39.056)
Right, right.
Grover (11:50.704)
Right, right.
Rob Chartrand (11:50.752)
Is that ring true for you or?
Grover (11:53.584)
100%. It was kind of like, man, this is like the secret sauce, the church. To me, it just seemed like a fuller expression of people that didn't all look the same, they didn't all act the same, they didn't use the right language, the verbiage, they saw things differently, but they were all hopeful and excited and sort of curious of this thing called Jesus and kind of living our mission. Yeah, it was a beautiful thing.
So, so good. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (12:23.648)
Hmm, hmm. Yeah. So talk to me about your role at Heritage. What is a discipleship pastor? What does that mean?
Grover (12:31.856)
After four years, I'm still trying to figure that out a little bit. To be honest, you know, I mean when I first got here it was strange because it's like July 1st, it's still in it, right? Not knowing what this year is gonna look like. You jump into a year at school, it's like everybody's coming back but nothing is the same. And I'm like, what do you mean nothing's the same? So what do things look like? Well, it looked like this and this. I'm like, well, I haven't experienced that. So for me, this is normal.
Rob Chartrand (12:35.648)
Okay.
Grover (13:00.592)
So let's put up the plastic shields, everybody wear a mask. Everything was done online. Like it was just, you know, I'd never been an online pastor. I never had to like create content to go online. And all of a sudden it's like, you've got to like create all these comp, you got to create content for, you know, kindergarten, other way up to grade 12 devotional. So like, yeah, again, my, my role changed from relational pastor to like kind of all things pastor.
Rob Chartrand (13:07.936)
Great. Yeah.
Grover (13:30.736)
And so for that that full first year it was another one of those things where you just kind of baptized by fire and I was like, okay Well, it's new for me. It's new for them. I guess they're not gonna grade me according to the last guy So in some ways it was good to be honest. It kind of was is like whatever you do is good I'm like, man struggle with that, but okay So coming into that, I mean, I really felt like you know, the discipleship pastoral should
Rob Chartrand (13:44.176)
Very liberating.
Grover (13:58.672)
a B about relationship and leaning in a relationship in the first year was a huge challenge, which led to things opening up the second year and for the last three years, things have kind of normalized in many ways. But for me, it was getting away from thinking first and foremost, that we operate as a church. This is a school, this is an educational institution. And so I had to change my shift, my brain and just...
recognize that Yeah, I can't operate as a youth pastor nor do I necessarily want to But I have to change the mentality of that when kids are in my office all day and teachers come to me knocking on the door second How come Johnny is not in class? I'm like, what do you mean? He's got he wants to talk to me Yeah, but he's missing math and he's missing Social I'm like you little beggar, you knew you knew right? So just kind of learning those things where you know kids would show up at church
Rob Chartrand (14:33.248)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (14:47.072)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Grover (14:54.416)
and you'd have them in your office, maybe chatting and talking and like no issues, all the fun in the school setting is like, no, there were actually set times where kids are available for conversation. Like, man, that's a challenge itself, right? So just, it was really, it was really a mind shift in learning some of those things, recognizing that, yeah, students are under your care, but I would probably, looking back now, recognizing that the staff are really my youth leaders, right?
Rob Chartrand (15:23.808)
Yeah.
Grover (15:24.464)
They're the ones who have the most influence and the most time to actually invest and disciple these kids. So that was...
Rob Chartrand (15:30.624)
Right. But that's an interesting relationship though, because they don't report to you. You aren't their direct supervisor, nor are you their ministry leader. So how do you try and influence them towards this vision of discipleship?
Grover (15:36.624)
No, no, not at all. No.
Grover (15:46.16)
Yeah, so here was, you know, man, it was just so brilliant. Because things were so different in that first year I was here, the board was like, because we're not using money towards retreats and all these other things that we normally would do, take this big pool of money and use it to actually invest in the staff. So what they allowed me to do was actually to get off site with them once a month and take them in little sort of pockets and basically,
go through some discipleship training and really, right, actually learn to actually share your own story. Have you been discipled? How have you been discipled? Are you a fan of Jesus? Are you actually a follower of Jesus? So it gave me this amazing opportunity that first year to really invest and speak into the lives of the staff and get them to be okay with their own stories. It's like, how can you now integrate and share your story with your students who desperately.
They want to see Jesus in you. They want to see how this faith that they have is changing how it's influencing their teachers. So that first year, you know, sometimes like COVID, man, what a pain it was. It was, but in some ways it allowed me to invest in some ways that I never would get to if it was normal school. So that first year I went hard, spent a whole lot of money, but also spent a lot of time investing in our teachers and showing them that there's a much bigger picture.
to what the good news of the gospel actually is. And it was amazing, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (17:15.808)
So, was there a vision or a culture already in the school where teachers were leaning towards discipleship or did you have to convince them? Like were there some teachers that were like, no, I'm not here to disciple, I'm here to teach and that's not what this is about. Or did the school already have this kind of ethos? Okay.
Grover (17:29.392)
man, yeah. Yeah, no, not at all. Not at all. Like, it literally was like, what is this that he speaks of? Right? Like, what is this? Honestly, and like, you know, even some of the younger teachers are like, man, they're going to jump all over this, right? They're pretty, they weren't dragging, they weren't sticking their heels in, but it was definitely like a shock to the system getting around a table and saying, okay, let's do this.
Rob Chartrand (17:41.12)
Okay. Yeah.
Grover (17:58.896)
Sure, what are the greatest things that have shaped you to this point? And then you go through family of origin, all those things like, okay, so how has the church shaped you? that's a great question. Who has discipled you? And for the majority of them, discipleship equals information transfer. So for a lot of them, it's like, yeah, I was discipled. I'm like, okay, so how was that like, how's that butting up against your life? And like, what do you mean? Like I go to church fairly regularly. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know. Like a lot of us do.
Rob Chartrand (18:14.944)
Yeah, for sure.
Grover (18:27.408)
But how is that discipleship process? How are you different now at 43 than you were when you came to your saving relationship with Jesus when you were 12? What is that? And I'm like, well, I don't know how to answer that. And so for me and a couple of our board members who sat around the table, it was a real eye -opener to, OK. OK, so the last 40 years, if we were, and it's not a bad thing. I got sent to Caronport.
14 years, I get this. Looking back over the years talking to alumnus, discipleship was information transfer, it was highly, was not relational, like really not at all in many ways, and it was, what's the best way to say this, I guess the word would be behavior modification, right? Some teachers initially, because I had coffees with them before I came,
Rob Chartrand (19:20.224)
Hmm. Hmm.
Grover (19:25.872)
They're like, so you're just going to come and you're going to fix our kids. And I'm like, if you think that's why I'm coming, yeah, you're sorely mistaken. They would laugh. They're like, you're funny. I'm like, no, that's not funny. I'm not coming to change kids' behaviors, right? I'm coming to help create a discipleship culture that's going to challenge all of us, including myself. So that was a big shift. And fortunately, our board was ready for it, which was.
was super helpful because when they interviewed me initially, I said some things and challenged them pretty hard and I thought for sure they were like, who is this? This guy's a loose cannon. Like he came in and he challenged us, not a chance. And six weeks later they called saying, all right, so when can you start? So I was like, whoa, okay, anyway. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (20:11.424)
Yeah, well, you know what? You're too old to soft pedal what you're doing, right? It's like you got nothing to lose. You might as well just tell them what you think. Yeah, if they like it, they like it. If not, it's not for them. Like that's just.
Grover (20:16.432)
Pretty much. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and that's okay. That's and that was all right. I was okay. It's kind of walking away from the opportunity to be honest. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (20:28.416)
Yeah. So I think one of the biggest challenges people have with discipling others is they've never been discipled. Right? If they don't know, they don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And I agree, like information transfer is one of our primary models, particularly in academic environments, right? Which content is important, right? But...
Grover (20:38.96)
hitting the nail on the head. It's true, yeah. Yeah, you don't know what you don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Grover (20:53.136)
For sure, makes sense, yeah. It is, totally is.
Rob Chartrand (20:56.096)
But if you're gonna see transformation of the mind, transformation of the heart, and transformation of behaviors, it requires an immersive discipleship experience that's highly relational. You can't get away from that. Yeah. So talk to me about...
Grover (21:08.4)
true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which makes it challenging. Yeah, yeah. I said, that immersive piece here is incredibly challenging because, I mean, kids are here to do school. Like, this is why they're here, right? So where do you actually, you know, where do you fit in that immersive relational piece? That's been the biggest challenge for the last few years. But we're figuring some...
Rob Chartrand (21:19.648)
Right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (21:28.832)
Yeah. Although you're probably more immersive than a youth group. Because they're there like once, maybe twice a week, and that's it for a few hours.
Grover (21:33.84)
absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a huge, a huge truth for sure. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (21:43.808)
So talk to me about the students that you have there. Like let's talk about the context, the culture of students that you have. Are they coming from Christian homes? Is it a diverse population? What's the school like?
Grover (21:48.236)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is unique unto itself. I don't know how much you know about Calgary, but when you say that the church is in the northeast, they're kind of like, It's kind of like saying, you know, I work in Scarborough. I work in Scarborough. right. All bad things. Right. It's kind of the mentality. It is very culturally diverse, this area of the city.
Rob Chartrand (22:05.44)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (22:09.76)
Okay.
Grover (22:17.168)
It's also like very, very close to the airport. It's some kind of industrial area. We don't have a busing thing. Every parent drops their kid off. 10 years ago, there was a massive shift from like really, if you look at the yearbooks, it's just, man, it is crazy to see how things have shifted. But it was very much Dutch, right? Dutch reform. CRC routes, you would get...
Rob Chartrand (22:40.896)
Okay, yeah, so CRC routes, yeah.
Grover (22:46.288)
Centre Street being one of the bigger churches here, a lot of families are still connected to this place. And Centre Street itself, when I started there, almost 20 years ago, it was very, very Caucasian, very middle to high in terms of economic, kind of pushing up economic factors. Now, 125 churches represented in a population of about 700 students.
Rob Chartrand (23:13.472)
Wow.
Grover (23:14.8)
right from like a home church movement, kind of missional movement, very, very conservative, fundamental conservatives, all the way to like, you know, charismatic and all these different expressions of charismatic. And then we, that's kind of more the evangelical world. Then you have all, all different branches of orthodoxy, right? The Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, it's crazy. You walk, you walk through the hallways of this place.
Rob Chartrand (23:37.12)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (23:43.952)
And it's just a beautiful picture of the kingdom of God. It is just, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. It's amazing, right? And that just brings so much diversity in so many ways. So for us, it makes it a challenge because what do we teach on? What do we kind of stay away from? What can't we do here? What can we do? Yeah, it's just, I love it. Just really, really love it.
Rob Chartrand (23:47.712)
Hmm. Love it. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (24:08.32)
So is there a covenant school in the sense that they have to sign a kind of a statement of faith to participate? So you wouldn't have kids from an Islamic background there.
Grover (24:15.6)
Yeah, you gotta have one parent.
No, no, we'll have them come and try to get in, for sure, right? As we've had parents a lot of times. I remember we had an open house just a couple months ago and a family comes in and starts talking. I'm talking to them at the kind of discipleship spiritual formation table. And I made pretty clear that he was likely Sikh or Hindu. I'm like, can I just ask you, you know, kind of what is your faith tradition? He's like, yeah, I'm a Sikh. And I'm like, why are you here? And he's like,
Rob Chartrand (24:22.08)
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Grover (24:48.592)
Because we've heard so many good things about the school and for us it's morality, you know, we just want morality and the values, right? And I said, are you going to have an issue with the Jesus factor? It's like, is it that significant? And I'm like, yeah, it's significant, like really significant. I think there'll be a lot of attention for you and your family. But we do, you have to sign off on at least one parent who is not just a church attender, but is also involved in serving as part of ministry. And we...
Rob Chartrand (24:50.815)
Right. Yeah, the values.
Rob Chartrand (25:01.024)
Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (25:17.36)
Right now there's just there's such a need for so many of our families in the city that any Christian institution in Calgary right now is bursting at the seams and every school has a massive waiting pool. And so for us when kids leave, like we got a group leaving in grade nine, we've had to let them know like if you leave this year and decide to go test the water somewhere else, you know, see if the grass truly is greener elsewhere, you can't, you won't be coming back in grade 11. That's it. Your spot is gone. It will be filled tomorrow, right?
Rob Chartrand (25:41.952)
You'll miss your spot. Yeah.
Grover (25:47.152)
And so that's kind of where, I mean, it's a really good problem to have and allows us to really, I think, do a better intentional job of vetting families as they come in, you know, actually check out what church you're going to talk to the pastor, get his approval, you know, see where things are around them. So it's, yeah, it's a good thing. It's a good spot. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (26:04.616)
Yeah. So you're also doing another gig here. It's a side hustle. I don't know what we want to call it, but you're also working at Mackenzie town in a pastoral role, a minor pastoral role. Just quickly tell us about that. What else are you doing there? It's still working with young people.
Grover (26:12.056)
Certainly not a side hustle, trust me. Yeah.
Grover (26:21.904)
man, it really is. Yeah, it's working with the age group that I help shape a lot of their thinking in regards to church and mission and Jesus and the kingdom stuff. So being honest, like my brother -in -law, if you don't know my brother -in -law, Brad Moppet is my brother -in -law. I'm sure you have, and I'm sure he said a lot of things. Either way, you know what? I don't know if it was a desperation move on his part, or just, he said to me, it's like, you know what?
Rob Chartrand (26:40.928)
Yeah, yeah, we've had them on the podcast. Yeah.
Grover (26:51.28)
You know, Grove, you know what? Of all these years in ministry, I've always really wanted to work alongside you. I'm like, you just want to be my boss. Let's be honest. That's what you want. So, and he has kids who are in the young adult age, right? And so I thought it would be a cool opportunity to get kind of rub shoulders with my nephews and nieces as well. But the real purpose of it is like not focusing on the, I would say the gathered expression. You know, I preach occasionally if I have to and they want me to. That's fine. I'm okay with doing that.
Rob Chartrand (26:58.176)
Ha ha.
Grover (27:20.592)
But it's really helping to shape this young adults ministry in such a way that these kids are like, you know what, I didn't start this job here to try to get you back because you're already here. It's not a matter of trying to get you back to the church and get you serving. It's like, what does it look like for you guys to actually follow Jesus in the everyday as you're at work, as you're at university, as you're getting ready to launch out into the big world? How can we help you as a church family? Yeah, it's just.
Teach her what it means to actually experience Jesus in a different way, to look for kingdom opportunities in a different way, and to do that in a very relational way, which means a whole lot of wings, a whole lot of beverage, a whole lot of backyard barbecues, a whole lot of brunch places. Food is central, really, to this youth or young adults role that I'm in right now. Yeah, yeah, and it's a lot of challenge. It's a lot of invitation of relationship.
Rob Chartrand (28:13.832)
as it should, yeah.
Grover (28:19.216)
But then a lot of challenge to like, okay, now go out there and do this, right? See what God's got for you, right? So yeah, so it's very, very limited scope, but man, I love it. I really enjoy it. So yeah.
Rob Chartrand (28:23.848)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (28:34.112)
So you're like easing into that empty nester stage now and you had kids growing up in the church, face pressed up against the glass and there are little kids watching dad in the youth ministry kind of thing. But do you ever have your kids involved in your youth ministry?
Grover (28:38.736)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (28:45.712)
yeah. Yeah.
they were there right from the very beginning, right? I wanted them, it wasn't like, hey, I want you guys to see your dad in action, right? To see this sort of like image of who I was. But they skipped right over children's ministry. Like, they just, they're like, what dad does is so much fun and like, so retreats. My kids and Carrie, like they literally were significantly involved. And you have these kids in youth ministry that are...
a little bit more shyer, introverted. We know that youth ministry is not really geared for the introverted human being. And so my children actually gave them an out. So they would go play with Jayden and play with Mitchell when kids were running around the field, full contact, whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, it gave them... Yeah, yeah. And so they were just mad. And my boys, some of their greatest memories of youth ministry back when they were children...
Rob Chartrand (29:25.792)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (29:35.264)
the introverted kids. Yeah, the ones who didn't want to play dodgeball. Yeah.
Grover (29:48.88)
were the older brothers and sister that had invested in them. And they're still friends today, right? So that was such a huge piece. I mean, even, it's funny, I remember when we came to Center Street, it is a massive children's ministry. Like it is a beast. It's called Promise Land. You walk over a bridge to get in and it's just like, you know, most kids would be like, what is this? My boys, you know, come and they see the entrance. And my youngest, Mitchell, being who Mitchell is, he just like, dad.
I don't want to go to prison land. Dude, it's promised land. He's like, no, it's not. That's prison. I don't want to go there. I want to be with the youth. Right. And so even at center street, you know, they weren't able to be quite as invested as they were in youth before they were youth, but they did all the sound. They did a lot of tech. So they found ways to like engage and, you know, go on retreats and be the sound kids so they could still be present and not, you know, take up space and be too annoying.
Rob Chartrand (30:40.768)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:47.008)
Hmm. Yeah.
Grover (30:48.304)
That was a real, so many good memories with my voice from those moments. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:52.448)
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's surprising, not surprising, but listening to all of, I've done a few interviews with some old youth guys already and they all say the same thing. Like their youth, their kids were loved being involved in the youth ministry and hanging out and being part of it. Like it was just such a rich environment for them, having all these older brothers and sisters and yeah, yeah. So.
Grover (30:57.392)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (31:13.424)
It's exactly what it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (31:17.056)
How have you seen youth ministry change over the years? You've been at it for a while. Think back to 1991, and now it's 2024. What's changing about young people that you're noticing the most? And maybe what's remaining the same?
Grover (31:21.52)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know.
Grover (31:32.4)
Yeah, that's a great question. man, I want to be as positive as I can and inspire others, right? I wrestle, I gotta be honest. I felt, and maybe it's because I didn't grow up in the church, maybe that was it. When you're discipled in the ways of how to program, I'll just call it for what it was, right? I mean, it was all good and it was fun and there has been an amazing, I'm not saying God didn't do anything like.
Rob Chartrand (31:40.864)
I'm sorry.
Grover (32:00.624)
to see the life change of many of the students that I work with is phenomenal. Obviously, you know, God takes our brokenness and does things, right? Man, you know what? In many ways, I'm not seeing that youth ministry really has changed much since 1991. It seems like a lot of the structure and a lot of the programming and a lot of the, I would say sometimes the pressure I think youth pastors feel, right? Because I think, man,
I'll just say this, I think a lot of youth pastors could actually sort of change, you know, sort of repurpose, tweak a few things here and there, do things a little bit different. They likely would, because the majority of them are a lot younger, but they feel a lot of pressure from their boards and their senior leadership. Hey, this is a youth ministry we know from the 80s and 90s. It changed my life. You got to keep it, right? So in a lot of ways, I think some changes need to be made.
I'm absolutely sure context plays a big role in that of what it should look like. I think it's a little bit sometimes. Here's what I was thinking after COVID. Now, the church is going to see things for the way it really is and they're just going to come back and it's got to look different, I think. I think it's got to look different. But most churches have kind of just continued on that whole idea, if nothing's broke, don't fix or...
Rob Chartrand (33:17.664)
Great. Yeah.
Grover (33:25.328)
Let's keep doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results. Insanity, I think they call that. Yeah. And so, yeah, I wrestle a little bit with that because I think in many ways, you know, we are not in Christendom any longer as much as we could hold on to Christendom and say, hey, you know, the church is still the center of our culture and our lives. It's just simply not. And my personal opinion on that. But we're still running things like it is.
Rob Chartrand (33:28.864)
Yeah, that's called insanity, right?
Grover (33:55.536)
When you go from my wife and Brad, I'll just use them for an example. They were part of the Metropolitan Bible Church in Ottawa for years. They went to church, you know, went to church seven times a week. Seven times a week. Families now, like if you're going twice a month, you are considered core. Like you are some of our top families. So that is changing of itself. So, you know, when you look at the life of a student,
Rob Chartrand (34:07.712)
Wow.
Rob Chartrand (34:17.6)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (34:25.136)
You know, how are they the same? They're same in many ways. I still have the same, I think, needs and wants that they've always wanted. Relational relationship is just top of the heap. Fundamental, like incredibly fundamental. But beyond that, yeah, it's just, I feel in a lot of ways like technology has obviously added a few wrinkles into things for us in terms of youth ministry. This still, I think the pressure is still a little bit there, right? Like,
Rob Chartrand (34:37.504)
Fundamental.
Grover (34:54.384)
Well, I did this this week, we got to kind of up, up it up a little bit for next week, a little bit bigger, a little bit better. Other pressures of that. And most students are just like, can you stop entertaining us? And can we just be right? I know a lot of students, especially, you know, my, my, you know, kind of framework is this place. And when I sit down with kids from our institution here, a lot of our students are not engaged in the local church as we speak.
A lot of them don't have youth pastors, but they have significant others in their lives outside of their mom and dad who love Jesus, who are following Jesus. And a lot of them is like, you know what, I can get entertained anywhere, but that relationship that I have with such and such, whether it's a family member or it's a cousin or a good friend of the family, those things are driving a lot of their discipleship and a lot of their sort of moving towards Jesus. It's a relational component. It's not the program.
You know, right? I can go anywhere to be entertained. I can go anywhere to experience this and that. And to be honest, you know, culture really kicks the church butt, or church butt, when it comes to, when it comes to entertainment. Right? Right? But when it comes to like deep, life -changing relationship, that should be the thing. And I, and I think it really is the thing, that is the difference, right? They, culture can't compete with relationship. Right? So, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (36:05.088)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (36:19.456)
Yeah, yeah, good, good word. Let's go back to 1991, young life, Grover, and then your early years after that back out in Slowville, Ontario. So if your plus 50 self could talk to your 20 something self and say, listen, buddy, here's a few things you need to know. What would you say? What would you tell yourself?
Grover (36:23.248)
Yeah.
Grover (36:27.216)
Hmm.
Grover (36:33.712)
Get all slow though. Yeah.
Grover (36:45.008)
Mm -hmm Yeah, that I was thinking about that question and in many ways it's like I don't look back on all those years and like and regret anything because in those moments like what I needed to learn is I think Has helped me to where I am now but if there was a few things that I could say it's probably like Don't take yourself too serious, right? I was you know people who know me who are listening to this like what what do you mean like back when I started? I?
Rob Chartrand (37:01.28)
Yeah, yeah.
Grover (37:14.736)
I was a very serious person and so much of my own, kind of my heart posture in that moment, my motivation for youth ministry ultimately, you know, and being open and transparent on this podcast, I had a massive heart wound, right? And I knew, right? I mean, man, if there's one place in the church where you can be set up as a little demigod, youth ministry is it, right?
Rob Chartrand (37:42.88)
Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (37:44.24)
And so for me, I mean, I operated out of that broken heart wound for my motivation was just, I need, yeah, not that I need people to worship me, but I know that if I give my all and work hard, I mean, just a people pleaser to the ultimate extreme. And so looking back now, that was one thing I would say, you know what? You have got to be for Jesus who God has created you to be, right? Don't be the best version of yourself, which was, I was told for years.
My best version of myself is still really broken. I would say, you know what, be the best version of Jesus. And guess what? You're gonna have people that no matter what you do, aren't gonna like you. You just, but man. So that would be a big thing. It's just, being the best version of Jesus, I think that would be important.
Rob Chartrand (38:16.992)
Right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (38:27.264)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (38:35.552)
You were also sort of into rub, but you were also an extraordinary athlete and a competitor. So that competitiveness must have found its way into the work that you were doing as well.
Grover (38:38.704)
Yeah, no.
Grover (38:42.512)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (38:46.928)
man, yeah, massively, right? It was always fun to get together with you pastors, and I know this still happens. You get together, and it literally just becomes, okay, so who's got the bigger, the bigger this, the bigger that, right? How many kids did you lead to Jesus last week? Stuff like that. So that I was full in, you know what, I mean, I jumped into the deep end when it came to that, and recognizing now, you know, a lot of those things really didn't matter probably that much.
Rob Chartrand (38:59.808)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Grover (39:17.168)
And I think another thing that I would tell my younger self in this moment, you have to find way better rhythms. I was a super unhealthy person, right? I was 75 pounds heavier than I am today, right? And it's just because, I mean, my staple was what it was supposed to be. It was Mickey D's and pizza and stuff. And I was not taking care of myself physically. So that was a big thing. And I certainly was not taking care of myself spiritually. I did not.
Rob Chartrand (39:24.608)
Hmm.
Grover (39:47.312)
any practices because I was like I said, discipled in the ways of doing the ministry, right? But not being who Jesus had called me to be. And so that would be a big thing. It's like get over yourself, recognize that these kids need a healthy expression of what it means to be a follower of Jesus, to be a pastor, to be a father, to be a friend and all those things. And so that was one thing I would say is just find healthier rhythms.
Rob Chartrand (39:57.792)
Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (40:16.624)
so you can sustain this a whole lot longer. And just be a better version of who Jesus is and should be. So those two things, probably the biggest things. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (40:24.8)
Yeah, good, good. So I mean, you you've changed over the years, obviously, 73 pound difference or whatever. I mean, it was 78, whatever you said. But I mean, your your role has changed, too. You remember when you were like in 1991, you were like just a few years older than the kids. Right. But now you're like.
Grover (40:32.336)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (40:36.336)
Yeah.
Grover (40:46.256)
yeah, it's crazy.
Rob Chartrand (40:47.872)
40 years older than the kids, or you know what I mean? So you were a cool older brother, but now you're not a cool. So how have you seen your role change over the years in your leadership in youth ministry?
Grover (40:50.668)
Yeah.
Grover (40:58.516)
Hmm Yeah For someone who's who recognizes and I knew this, you know long ago I am I am an introvert like I am so introverted right? But man, I was just pushing myself hard to To sort of try to shift from that to be you got to be the guy with the mic You got to be the person who's always leading always up front I'm gonna run ahead of people get them to chase me and follow after me. I
Rob Chartrand (41:09.376)
Hmm. Hmm.
Grover (41:28.368)
I'm just gonna like not really have much in the way of any kind of strategy, right? It's just, you know, so I mean, I just felt like I was just spinning, spinning plates and trying to catch them before they hit the ground. And, you know, you move into a role where it's like, all of a sudden you're, you're coming out of a place like Springville. It's like, you know, we have eight kids. Sorry, that's all we got. And you know, seven of them, seven of them are the senior bastards kids. It's like, right. It's kind of like,
Rob Chartrand (41:52.352)
Wow.
Grover (41:58.576)
man. Okay. So, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And they're pushing back at a bunch of stuff that I was preaching on. So, so I could see why he kind of despise me, but, yeah, I mean, moving from, you know, like highly programmatic to like basically a bottomless barrel of resources to like, here's your, you know, $250, you know, budget for the year. okay. okay. Right.
Rob Chartrand (41:59.808)
Well, that's where the tension happened. You're pastoring the pastor's kids.
Grover (42:27.76)
So yeah, I mean, as I look back on all those experiences, and I haven't had like a ton of them, I wasn't jumping to church to church to church to church every single year or anything like that, but you recognize, you get to a point in certain seasons of ministry where you've gotta release a lot of stuff that sort of gave you an identity, right? When all of a sudden you're not on the talk or the speaking circuit like you were.
Rob Chartrand (42:50.976)
Yeah.
Grover (42:56.912)
when you were young and hip and cool and you were wearing the right whatever it was. And all of a sudden it's now, you know, now, rarely once in a while, yes. Honestly, I don't want to speak, to be honest, but I love being called out to a church or somewhere as like, yeah, we're really trying to focus on a discipleship culture. Can you come and can you tell us? I'm like, no, I'd rather just listen to you tell me what you currently are doing, right? And help you in the process of actually.
shifting from more of a consumeristic culture to a more, you know, discipleship culture. So it's really kind of slowly just moving back from the front lines and delegating and investing in people, speaking into people's lives, giving them the courage and the confidence and the tools and the equipping that they need to actually lead, right? That in and of itself. And that's kind of where I'm at now, if you're even at the school, like,
I sit back now and watch my team do a lot of the stuff that I was even doing four years ago. Because I don't need to do this. And if we're going to have a healthy, sustainable culture moving forward, I got to take steps back and cheer people on. Just be their biggest fan. And then also bring the constructive criticism when it needs to come and not be afraid of conflict when it needs to arise. And...
It's so good. Yeah, I hope that helps. I hope that kind of answers that question.
Rob Chartrand (44:31.008)
Well, that's good. That's good. Youth ministry, you look back over the years and there's just so many stories of epic fails. Where you can only look back and laugh at yourself or you wake up in a sweat in the middle of the night remembering what you did wrong. You got any youth ministry fail stories you want to tell our listeners?
Grover (44:41.008)
man. yeah. man. Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (44:55.184)
Yeah, there's you know what I could probably write a book on all of them to be honest, but I'm just trying to think like starting off without any any Concept of what you're doing might not be a good thing, right? Like is it even when you think back? I mean there's a ton but a lot of you pastors today like they're being you know bubble -wrapped in liabilities So, you know, you're right and they're not if they do things like they're not supposed to say anything anyway
Rob Chartrand (45:19.36)
Yes, right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (45:24.096)
Plan to protect, incident reports, everything. Insurance, yeah.
Grover (45:24.592)
But I remember, man, yeah, it's like, wow, okay. Yeah, yeah, and just the thread of a lawsuit. So here we go. I'm gonna go right back to the very beginning, not knowing any better. Young life days, highly, highly programmatic, but it was amazing, man. Coaching these guys and then saying, hey, you know, we got this silly, ridiculous thing we're gonna do tomorrow night, but we're gonna start at the top of Mount Royal, which is a place here in Calgary.
And we're going to run through the streets. We'll call it, I don't know, let's go with KGB because, you know, Russians are bad or something like that. Right. And so you are, you are the, the freedom people. We are the KGB as the leaders. We're going to run through the streets of Mount Royal, knowing Mount Royal, if you know Mount Royal in Calgary, it is like hoity toityville. It's like, it's a pretty expensive place to reside. and as you run through the streets, if we, you know, we find you, we'll tackle you, we'll.
Rob Chartrand (46:12.096)
Yeah, yeah.
Grover (46:22.064)
put a mark on your hand, you gotta go back to the start. Start all over, try to get to a community center where we're gonna feed them full of food and sugar, obviously preach you good news, play some songs, send them on their way, right? But that was all idea. On paper, it looked amazing. But I had these guys from the basketball team at Central Memorial High School, farthest like from Jesus, but such amazing young guys. And they came from a rough crowd. They came from Ogden, and Ogden is pretty rough part of town.
Rob Chartrand (46:48.544)
Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (46:51.408)
So anyway, so we're playing this game and I see two of my players crossing the street Well, I'm like, I'm so gonna get these boys. So I chase and run and They end up running through a person's home Front yeah Door was open. So they literally figured hey, let's let's run through the front front door. They ran through and so what do I do? I can't let them do this. I must chase
Rob Chartrand (47:08.128)
Grover (47:20.912)
And so I chased them through the house. It was about seven o 'clock at night. As we're running through the house, we see the family sitting at the dining room table and we just kind of like, Hey, just keep going. Obviously they called the cops, which makes sense. I ended up tackling them about four blocks over in the middle of the street and I had both of them and I had pinned them in the middle of the street. And this is kind of before cell phones and good thing, right? And video footage, cops show up.
Rob Chartrand (47:29.88)
my goodness.
Rob Chartrand (47:46.176)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Grover (47:50.832)
They literally slammed me to the ground and they're like sir, what are you doing? We heard we're like, yeah, you know, we're just from young life We're just playing a silly game blah blah blah blah Fortunately a cop showed up who rolled up after they had me pinned to the ground ready to arrest me, right? They're like, hey, I used to be a young lifer. I know exactly what's going on here. This is just a silly game They're playing my my basketball players are like
Rob Chartrand (47:51.104)
my goodness.
Grover (48:20.016)
because I'm about ready to get, you know, ready to get gloved. And so they let me go. But that was a moment where it's like, you know what, everything was, yeah. And I mean, it goes down epic. Yeah, exactly. I still am in a relationship with these, these two fellas. And anytime we get together, you know, and have conversations and talk about life and where things are at, it always comes up. It always comes up. You remember when, and it gets a little bit more far fetched. Like, you know, we sat down,
Rob Chartrand (48:28.576)
Epic.
Rob Chartrand (48:41.696)
You retell the story, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (48:46.624)
Do you remember that time you and I were with our buddy Chris and we went to that Toronto Raptors fundraiser? Actually, I found a picture the other day. did I send it to you? Okay, yeah, yeah. And like Chris Bosch is there and all these other guys were in the platinum room. And I went to set my drink down and I missed the counter altogether. It hit the ground, shattered in the floor.
Grover (48:55.248)
Totally. Yeah, you sent me that picture. Yeah, you sent it to me, yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Grover (49:10.032)
Yeah, hit the ground. Bam. Yep.
Rob Chartrand (49:13.568)
The whole room goes quiet. You guys all just slowly inch into the background. I'm standing there in the middle of all these NBA players and the lady comes out with a mop and. my good times. Yeah.
Grover (49:21.072)
yeah, yep. yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I do remember that. Good times are had. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (49:34.208)
So, Gross, how have you stayed in the game this long? I'm sure there are times you wanted to quit. Hundreds of times maybe, I don't know. But what's kept you here? Yeah, okay.
Grover (49:40.912)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm not necessarily 100, but I'm probably 100. You know what, yeah, to be honest, there was moments where I never, I always wrestled with forms and methods, right? And so for me it's like, what is the most effective and best way that we can reach these kids? And so often that was the thing that hurt my heart is like,
Not that we're not doing enough, but I feel like sometimes we're doing more than we should, but we're...
We're not focusing on the things that are most important. And that was sometimes where I had to like put myself on the shelf. And I remember six months, Ratcliffe Lumber up in Stouffville. You know what? I took a little bit of a sabbatical, a little bit break and I went into like a shed and made bed frames for almost six months. I just, and basically yelled and swore at God. Why did you call me to this? Right? Why'd you call me to this? And he'd always bring me back around and he's like, you know what? This is the greatest calling in my life.
Rob Chartrand (50:37.808)
Yeah.
Grover (50:46.576)
Right. Time to get back in the game. Right. Crimean River. It's not so bad. You're right. It's not right. And then I get back in the game and then, you know, I mean, I was grateful for a place like center street was and they saw my holy discontent. They saw you're getting restless. Yeah. You're getting restless in the confines of the institution. We need to start a five, six ministry here at center street. Would you be open to that? 100 % right.
Hey, we're starting a multi -site in energy. Would you want to start that? 100%. Hey, we're starting this discipleship culture. Would you be open to that? Right? Incredibly grateful for leaders who were leading me that saw Grover's getting restless and he's gonna fly the coop here soon if we don't give him a new challenge. Right? And for me, it was always, I mean, I just always had the heart posture that, yeah, I mean, yeah, I feel like I've been called to this. Could I do other things? yeah, 100%.
Rob Chartrand (51:33.728)
Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (51:43.856)
But you know, the good news, the gospel, the kingdom, the church is like, there's so many different, there's so many avenues that you can actually, you know, do life within those different avenues. I never thought Christian school would ever actually be one of them because being someone who got sent to Cairnport, you know, was like, as much as I have amazing friendships, and the teachers are still my friends today. I never ever thought that.
Rob Chartrand (52:02.976)
Totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Grover (52:11.536)
that this would be kind of like likely my last season of this, right? Like what a like full circle moment. Coming to Jesus at Caramport, giving my life to Jesus at Caramport, and now seeing a bunch of kids who had my heart posture, surrounding their lives to Jesus, right? So that's part of the reason I've stayed is because when you got guys like Chris Cramp, when you got all these other students that I've worked with along the years, they're driving through Calgary, they call me up, they text me, hey,
Rob Chartrand (52:14.368)
Yeah, yeah.
Grover (52:39.216)
at Pastor Grover, you want to grab a pizza, you want to grab a beer, blah blah, whatever it is. It's like, this is why I stayed in the game. It's seeing the fruits of years of like, is this making a difference in anyone? Right? I mean, the only thing it's given me is, you know, ulcers and, you know, lack of hair and a gray beard, right? But then you start to see, right? When you're in the game long enough and you would have seen it, you start to see like some of the fruit of it.
Rob Chartrand (52:45.312)
Hmm. Yeah.
Grover (53:08.976)
all those years of what you thought wasn't making any difference was making a difference in the lives of leaders and obviously students but also families, right? Investing in those parents. It's a beautiful thing.
Rob Chartrand (53:12.768)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (53:21.568)
I found that my frustration and my angst and maybe my hurt idealism took place more in my twenties and maybe my early thirties. But, and I didn't have the full resiliency and grit developed back then that maybe now like, like, do you know what I mean? Like, or, but I, but sometimes I wonder, maybe I just got better gigs in my thirties and forties. I don't know. But like, but, but I do find like in my, I, I, I,
Grover (53:30.512)
Mm.
Grover (53:37.772)
That's fair.
Grover (53:45.296)
Ha ha!
Rob Chartrand (53:50.304)
I was more frustrated in my 20s and 30s than I am now, but maybe looking back, I'm thinking, I should expect this. But in my 20s, I'm like, I didn't expect this. I didn't want this, you know? Maybe I was more broke back then too.
Grover (53:53.904)
Hmm.
Grover (54:00.528)
That's interesting.
Yeah, yeah. That's yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Yeah, it's for me in my 20s. I just felt like I'm just flying by the seat of my pants. I don't even honestly, I don't even know what I'm doing. I need to go to a national youth workers conference. Right? I need to see what is happening. And then I try to superimpose Willow Creek youth ministry. And, you know, all these other ministries into a like a small, you know, inner city thing. And so I get frustrated at that. I'm not seeing.
Rob Chartrand (54:18.62)
Right.
Grover (54:33.904)
I'm not seeing Willow Creek here and I'm not seeing it, but I'll keep trying, I'll keep trying. I'm just a sucker for punishment, right? But then, I mean, when I came out to Center Street and all of a sudden I'm living in that context, I'm working in the mega, and then you start to see some of the cracks and things like that. It's like, that's where I got frustrated from like 35 to 45. That was my, I think it was like, honestly, in many ways, it was my form of a midlife crisis. I wasn't looking for a new wife.
I wasn't looking for a new car. I wasn't looking for the newness of any kind of material possession. I was like, man, I want newness in the church. How come we're not reaching people in a different way? And that drove me crazy. There was moments, man. And what I love about it is the Center Street leadership knew and saw it, and they were okay with it.
There's like, well, if you don't like it, go away. If you don't need you, we'll find somebody else. No, they stuck with me in moments where I was like, I wasn't speaking against them, but I was like trying to challenge them to look beyond the walls of the building. And a lot of things they stepped up and allowed me to do that. So yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (55:47.904)
Yeah. Well, I mean, just listening to you, Grover, I'm listening to your, you know, your, your story. I, and I'm thinking about your leadership style. I mean, you, there's different types of leaders. There are some who are great at startup, right? They're the kind of the accelerators, mission accelerators high on the a, on the apest, right? And then there's the builders, those who can grow organizations. There's the fixers. There's people like the fix broken things, right? There's the maintainers and we need them. They're the ones who can keep things going, right? And sustain it.
Grover (55:59.248)
Mm -hmm.
Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Grover (56:10.416)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Absolutely.
Rob Chartrand (56:15.392)
They're the closers, the people who can shut stuff down, right? But you sound like you're more on the missional, apest, builder side of things, right? So you're not the bean counter, the guy who's just gonna keep things running.
Grover (56:18.32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (56:26.096)
Yeah, very much so. Yeah.
No, Apostolic Shepherd, 100%. That's kind of my world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much so, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (56:31.872)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I'm glad for a center street that they had the wisdom to recognize that and to value that and say, okay, he's a valued member of our team. Let's put him in places where he can use his gifts in the best way.
Grover (56:40.208)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (56:45.776)
Absolutely.
Grover (56:49.616)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, amen for that. Because I did, I've seen a lot of people, especially my age, who have that same sort of gifting. And they just, I'm not saying they leave church early, but they can't find a fit, they just go off and kind of, and I understand it, but they just create their own thing, right? But then they're missing the evangelists, they're missing the shepherds, they're missing the teachers. So yeah, I was glad they decided to keep me on a.
Rob Chartrand (57:05.952)
Yeah. Yeah.
Grover (57:19.312)
I was going to say leash, but not really. That's true. Yep.
Rob Chartrand (57:20.768)
Yeah, some institutions aren't large enough to do that though. Like Center Street, unfortunately, they can move staff around and do that. But in like a two -person, three -person staff team, you can't do that without jeopardizing programming on other areas or ministries in other areas. Unless you have really great volunteers who can do it. Yeah. Well.
Grover (57:30.928)
I know it's not going to happen. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. Context is big. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Good point.
Rob Chartrand (57:43.104)
This has been Rich. I wonder if we could close with you sharing a final word of encouragement to our listeners today, our ministry leaders across the country.
Grover (57:45.04)
Yeah.
Grover (57:49.9)
Hmm 100 % yeah, I would say this no matter where you are in the game whether you're just starting out fresh Right everything I've said to that now you're like wow like really Versus man. I totally I totally see where you're coming from. I remember those days Right they can look back and just kind of see where where God has been at work Probably the biggest encouragement or challenge I would have
Rob Chartrand (58:08.896)
Mm -hmm.
Grover (58:18.896)
for listeners is you know what just remain faithful to what you've been called to and you know, I always go back to Jesus and remaining in him and in the vine right and that like anything that we do and this man this this wrecked my world ten years ago anything that we do apart from him It doesn't mean much right it's really nothing
Rob Chartrand (58:46.336)
Nothing. Yeah.
Grover (58:48.624)
It's really nothing. And also knowing too this, that the pruning stages, which means death and loss, and a lot of things that we sometimes, because of the culture that we live in, sees pruning as, for what it is, you're cutting back good things in order for the flourishing of what God really has for you. When the pruning comes, engage it and embrace it, recognizing that this is just a part of the journey.
And that God has something far greater, far better for you than maybe you could ever imagine. Because I mean, looking back on all these years, would I have ever thought for a moment, ever, that I would be doing something like this? Like for me, I would say it just, it so fits my gig for kind of, you know, slowly moving towards the, not even not at the finish line, but I never, I never ever saw myself in a Christian environment. Like in a school.
where I get to do what I love to do and it being in the city where I grew up, literally two miles from where I grew up as a child. Like, man, I never, my story would have been far more safe, far more sterile, far more point A to point B to point C. I mean, my story is just a hot, stinking, dumpster fire mess and God's redeemed it, like he literally has.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:14.256)
Yeah.
Grover (01:00:19.024)
And so, yeah, that would be my challenge is like, just keep on, just keep on keeping on and keeping Jesus at the center. You know, find your identity and who you are as a follower of Jesus, not in your staff role or position, because those things can change really, really quickly. So anyway, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:36.032)
Yeah, yeah. Good word, my friend. Good word. So great having you here on Church in the North, Grover. We'll have to get you back on here again sometime in the future. And can you just say one last thing for me? Can you say, go Oilers?
Grover (01:00:39.408)
Thanks.
Grover (01:00:43.76)
Appreciate it.
That'd be great.
Grover (01:00:53.168)
Literally started my vocabulary, right? it's like man. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:56.224)
His mouth got dry, his eyes got, he grows them from Calgary, you know, the ancient rivalry. Yeah.
Grover (01:01:04.144)
Yeah, you know what? I'm really, I mean, yeah, I'm not really a huge hockey fan at the best. It would be nice to see they come back to Albert. I give you that, right? And I think they actually got a pretty good opportunity and chance. It is, you know what? And I mean, it's a great province. Edmonton's a great place to visit. They got a great mall. So, and they seem to have a pretty good hockey team right now. That's about as far as I can go. So, they really are. Yeah. it is.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:09.344)
That's right.
Okay, yeah. Yeah, it's a couple hours away. You know, it's close.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:22.208)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, they're doing all right. Yeah, that's good. That's very, very humbling for you, I know, but appreciated. Yeah. All right, man. Thanks for joining us. God bless.
Grover (01:01:34.076)
Thanks for that. My pleasure. Blessings. See you.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:42.528)
Alright!