Rob Chartrand (00:02.339)
Well, we are excited to have on the Church in the North podcast today, Mark Mowbray. He is a youth worker at Bramalea Baptist Church in Brampton, Ontario. And we're so excited, Mark, to have you today on the Church in the North podcast and the special summer series on the old youth guys. So, hey, thanks for joining us today.
Mark Mowbray (00:27.502)
Hey, it's great to be here and I did note the emphasis on the old man. I'll take it. It's okay. I'll call it wisdom, okay?
Rob Chartrand (00:35.619)
Yeah, well, hey, I can say it and get away with it. So I'm an old guy too. So, hey, we wanna go back to the beginning. We wanna hear your story about ministry and then we're gonna get down into details on ministry in general. But tell us your story. How did you end up in youth ministry? Where did it all begin?
Mark Mowbray (00:54.478)
Well, I am a quintessential product of youth ministry. I grew up in a really great community and a great family. I love God, I loved his work and his church, but I did not know that my righteousness in my mind was the filthy rags that the Bible talked about. And I was invited over to our neighbor's house for a youth event and I went.
And I was like, whoa, there's something different here. And what was different was that I'd kind of seen for the first time faith in action in a youth. And so from that night on, I started to attend a youth ministry at the Baptist Church. And I went to a rally with that group and I accepted Christ as my savior. He called out to me and I reacted to that and life was a trajectory.
from there of learning, growing. One of my favorite memories of we had an elder in our church who kept on wanting me to get baptized. And I remember, this makes such a good teaching point, but I remember that I didn't think I was good enough. And so I had to get better before I could get baptized. Anyways, we figured that one out. My wife and I, she was my girlfriend at the time, got baptized. And shortly after we were married, the wonderful youth pastor at our church,
thought that we were the best candidates to work with youth. So we started to work with the youth and literally within a few weeks, he decided it was his time to resign. And so here we are working full time. Yes, it was quite funny. But you know, when you're young, you don't know any different, right? Like I thought this was great. But yeah, so went.
Rob Chartrand (02:34.851)
convenient.
Mark Mowbray (02:45.678)
went and serving there and we took the kids to this big youth rally, the same actual youth rally that I had committed my life at. And the guy speaking, I'm all excited. I was like, man, this is good stuff. I'm going to debrief our students. And then about three quarters of the way through was like, no, God's talking to me. He's calling me into ministry. And so it was so exciting. So anyways, that's a...
went to seminary, moved the country boy, moved to the city. My wife put me through seminary and then we were like started on the road to ministry.
Rob Chartrand (03:20.899)
Wow. So did you do an undergrad somewhere else then first?
Mark Mowbray (03:24.878)
Well, now you're making me show my cards here. God called me to be a farmer and you cannot, that's no joke aside, man. All my friends do this, do that or whatever. I'm going to school to, you know, because they don't know what to do. And like, no way, man, I'm going to agricultural college and I'm going to be a farmer. And I did all that, but God just got the animal wrong. It wasn't cows, it was sheep. So.
Rob Chartrand (03:28.451)
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Rob Chartrand (03:45.475)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (03:53.803)
So go ahead.
Mark Mowbray (03:55.086)
So, no, no, I'm just going to say, so I got a diploma in agriculture, and then, yeah, I went to school, and I went to Central Baptist Seminary and got a BTH, and they couldn't give me an MDiv because they only had a diploma in agriculture, so it was okay.
Rob Chartrand (04:12.035)
Okay, yeah. So where is Central and where are we living at the time? Were you in Ontario?
Mark Mowbray (04:18.318)
Yeah, yeah, sorry. Forgot about that. Yeah, I grew up in a beautiful place called Prince Edward County. It's not Prince Edward Island. If you look at the Great Lakes, it's the clump of land that sticks out into Lake Ontario. It's been come overrun with people who retire there with vineyards and tourists. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful spot. But we had a little dairy farm there that, and then we moved to the big city of Toronto. And boy, a fish out of water there, man.
Rob Chartrand (04:46.243)
Wow. So was the church, what was the church you were at at the time?
Mark Mowbray (04:50.254)
The church I was at in Belleville was called Parkdale Baptist Church and that's still going strong and really encouraging. Well, you'll hear about that later. I ended up back there at one point, but then we went to Central Baptist Seminary in Toronto and then we were at Fellowship Baptist Church there and that was a church plant that was a really, really cool time to be part of that church when they just built the building. And I started serving there as an intern and again,
I don't know, maybe it's me, but shortly after I came, the senior pastor, that's one of the main reasons I went there to serve, he moved out west. So anyways, good stuff.
Rob Chartrand (05:29.603)
People move away as soon as you move in. Is that the...
Mark Mowbray (05:33.198)
Well, my daughter and who I've got to serve with too, she nicely told me a couple of years ago, dad, maybe it's you, dude.
Rob Chartrand (05:41.475)
Okay, so where else have you served? Is that all the places you've ended up? What's the trajectory that got you eventually to Bramalea and how long have you been there?
Mark Mowbray (05:47.726)
Mark Mowbray (05:52.398)
Yeah, so yeah, it's also started out at Parkdale Baptist Church where I was saved, moved into Toronto, we went to seminary, we served an intern at Fellowship Baptist Church under Mike Mahorder and Lloyd Markle. And then we actually were called into ministry into Greenbelt Baptist Church in Ottawa.
And that was a great church. One of the elders described it as a youth group with a church. It was the, anyway, I could talk a long time about that church. That was great. Cut my teeth there. And then we ended up coming back to Parkdale Baptist Church as a youth pastor. And from there, we went to Bench and Street Baptist Church in Kitchener, one of the oldest churches in our fellowship, like 100 and I don't know how many years old. And then,
Yeah, we came here to Bramley Baptist Church for the last six years, and I'm serving with Senior High and Young Adult Ministry currently. And it seems like most of the churches that I've served at have kind of gone through the gamut of different roles, but always end up one way or another back at the Senior High or the Junior High or Young Adult Ministry.
Rob Chartrand (07:05.283)
Okay, so what was the longest church you were at or the church you were at for the longest period?
Mark Mowbray (07:11.47)
Yeah, Parkdale Baptist. So I was getting saved there. But then when I came back there, I was there, I think over 12 years. And that one was the full ride. I went there and I would say part of the dream team, a really great lead and great associate and great children's worker and really, really great team. And then one by one, they all left. And I remember literally almost begging God, like, let me lead. Like I'm at the...
I'm at the top of my game, man. I can go anywhere. I'm in demand. But God had other plans. And yeah, that was a really interesting process. So stayed there and helped them through the transition. I ended up serving actually with a really cool story. One of my best friends that I grew up with at that church, he became the lead pastor. And then we had a really cool model of kind of in and out or growing and going.
I haven't seen one like it before, but basically kind of a two horizontal lines. And he was the, you know, in the word and I was going out with the word and stuff. And so anyway, that church, yeah, lots of opportunities, evangelism and children, youth, they did family ministry. But yeah, in the end, it was just, yeah, time to move on. I went to Kitchener and I started back out again in children, youth and young adults. So yeah, fun times.
Rob Chartrand (08:41.315)
So any reason why you end up coming back to youth ministry all the time?
Mark Mowbray (08:46.606)
Yes, in all seriousness, like God won't let me leave and my desire and my heart is always for them. The picture that God gave me a number of years ago with kind of like standing in the gap that doesn't show up on the screen very well, I know, but really, really strong picture of so many people want to...
care for, love, walk alongside you, that's great. So many people want to put up with and make sure that they're okay. I just really have the call that this is the time, this is the place, like this is a generation. And so for this age and stage of life, God's called me and made me very unique to want to love, reach out, care for, walk alongside them, but at the same time, stand in the gap so that others don't miss the point.
that this is it. Like if you don't get it right now, then that's, you know, I mean, harshly put where most of our other ministries in the church are built on because we didn't do youth ministry right. And so all the counseling and all these other things that we walk through with people is because, you know, they haven't been brought to faith, first of all, or then we've been discipled. So yeah, really, really, really passionate about doing it right when they're young.
Rob Chartrand (10:07.427)
Yeah, so good. So you mentioned your daughter. So obviously you've got kids. Was your family ever involved in your youth ministry or how was your family involved in your youth ministries over the years?
Mark Mowbray (10:24.11)
Well, I think I'll end with this later on here, but we'll get it over with now. I have no ministry without my wife. When we started off, I literally convinced her to be a poor pastor's wife, and she said yes. And then it was like, by the way, it looks like God has another plan. And like literally, she got a job in Toronto, and she put me through seminary.
And yeah, we have, we had quite a journey. When I graduated from seminary, again, my wife was quite sick. And we say to many people over the years that I got my degree and that was really great to know what to do. But the next number of years as we went through that illness was God teaching us how to do that. And that was if we didn't know God, if we didn't know him intensely, then it didn't matter what I knew.
It wasn't going to be received. And so all of that to say, it took us about 11 years until we had our children, but we were given a really healthy boy, Mitchell, and a great daughter, Melina. And Mitchell's perfect because he was born in the year 2000. So as a man, I can remember his birthday all the time. So it's the year. And he's serving actually with...
He actually went to the same school, to Heritage College and Seminary, and he's serving in an outdoor discipleship ministry called Coldwater Canada. And then my daughter is just in the midst of doing teachers college down at Queens University. And to answer your question, yeah, I've served with them. I've been the youth pastor. One of my changes was literally, I just quit being their youth pastor, because I changed my roles, and then I changed roles, and then I...
became the youth pastor and it was, I think they would say it was joyous. I mean, I loved it, but, and then my daughter, she served and she was my intern and she led our whole team of like over 30 staff here in the last few years. So yeah, really, really, really big privilege to say that our kids know the Lord and that are walking with him. And I didn't screw them up too bad. That's because my wife, you know, she got them fixed.
Rob Chartrand (12:34.563)
Wow.
Rob Chartrand (12:41.987)
Wow. Yeah. So let's talk about your current ministry. How would you describe your current youth ministry? What is the context of, you know, the city you're serving in and the church you're serving in? What's it look like?
Mark Mowbray (13:02.478)
Yeah, our ministry here is, it's always been about some disciple making. I'll take that back. It hasn't always been about that. When I was in Ottawa, I had an amazing mentor and leader, Ricky B that I worked with, and he had been taking me through some things to hone some of the stuff that I knew and to how to apply it and so on. And I had been exposed.
early on, actually, when I was way back, I just as a volunteer youth worker with Sun Life, I've been to dance, Bader's work, for sure, mainstream stuff like that. And he brought me back to that in a very real, clear way. And, you know, the harshest line, which is so true is like, if you're not making disciples like like Jesus did, like, what are you doing? And, you know, and unfortunately, the answer becomes really.
really hard to hear, like, I'm having really good time. I'm the best worship leader. I like have the best games. Like I have the biggest youth group. Like that's great. But so, so for us that that emphasis comes through over and over again. And that's, that's not just words. That's for us. That's, I would say even painful to make that happen sometimes and to have those conversations. So in our context, you really have to live here to appreciate it.
Like the world is here. Our church currently has over 50 nationalities. And I know people kind of boast about that, but we just consider it a huge gift. And the only way when we've gone through transitions here and new people have come, they're like, I don't get it. And you're like, we need, and this, and that. It's like the only way that this works is because, you know, the line, the foot of the cross is level ground. And so there's no, hey, we're doing it this way because there's people like that. So for our youth ministry,
The kids have grown up in that and that's what's normal is like we all the only thing we have in common is that we need to know God and then once you know God what do you do with that? So I have some fun stories because of that but
Rob Chartrand (15:11.395)
Yeah. So talk to me about the breakdown of your week with the ministries you offer to young people. What does that look like?
Mark Mowbray (15:20.398)
Yeah, really good point. So looking after the senior high youth and the young adult, we call a young adult thrive or senior high illuminate. It's on a trajectory of we basically again, the Great Commission, Great Commandment, you know, so we have ministries that are basically reaching out. And so we call that one, kids, teens, kids in the neighborhood. And it's an outreach opportunity, more like a drop in.
We were blessed a few years ago, just actually just when I came, they built a brand new gym and we redid our whole north wing of the building and that is more like a youth wing and a games room, a chapel, like a meeting space and then the gym and you know, hang out atrium area and stuff like that. So really positive. So that one night for the senior highs and then the other night we call it our growth group night. So we're going to...
Rob Chartrand (15:58.211)
Nice.
Mark Mowbray (16:15.502)
all that ignited and that's an opportunity for what might be more considered a traditional, you know, some kind of worship or teaching and then you're breaking into the groups. But the groups are the key. Our growth groups are through our whole church that's designed from the purpose of how do you then be discipled? How do you go? How do you grow in Christ? And then we use still a traditional format, especially with our very multicultural and different ethnicities. We call our Sunday morning
meeting we have two services, English services on Sunday plus an Arabic and a Hindi and Punjabi, not Punjabi sorry, a Hindi and Urdu service. And the first service that is before, the first meeting before those is Sunday studies and we literally go through the Bible every few years and that's very kind of well received for that age group.
Our young adults use a very similar model, but we call them touch points and we use five different touch points. Again, these are based on evangelism, discipleship, worship and fellowship. So we have overflow worship, growth groups, sports ministries, which is really taken off. That's a really cool one. We have the meetups and socials and we have service and mission. And so those touch points have leadership teams for each of those who.
basically run that. So yeah, fun times.
Rob Chartrand (17:43.779)
So you've got multiple language groups. Do they have separate services? Sunday mornings?
Mark Mowbray (17:45.614)
Thank you.
Yeah, so sorry, to be super clear, we only do, the only time that we are apart is Sunday morning at 11 o 'clock when we have three language services, but everything else that we do in the whole church is only in English and it's geared for the fact that we're together.
Rob Chartrand (18:07.203)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:11.492)
Yeah, well second generation Canadians, they're all speaking English. The kids are so but you're Sunday morning. You must have some spaces then to be able to run three services concurrently. Is that right? Yeah.
Mark Mowbray (18:22.574)
Yeah, yeah, super, super, super, super blessed. We're just in a renovation project again now, a revitalization, and we're reminding the church of the great vision and the great faith that our church had back in the 80s. They were a church of about 400, 500 people, and their building project was for a building of 2000. And it was just like, are you guys crazy? So anyways, because of that,
We kept the old auditorium, we built another space, so we have basically four kind of auditoriums that we can use at the same time and then a children's space. So it works really well.
Rob Chartrand (19:01.731)
So the youth ministry doesn't run during that 11 o 'clock hour that's earlier on in the day? Okay.
Mark Mowbray (19:06.638)
Yeah, yeah, it's when the first English service is on the Sunday mornings, yeah. Because we really want our youth, and that's a really good question, thanks for asking that. We really want our youth to be involved. And I know some of the models, you know, hey, this is for you, this is for, and I even teach that in my course, right? Like, this is, you know, youth culture, you have to understand that. But we believe that the youth are part of the church. And so we want them to serve in the second service. We want them to go to the second service.
Rob Chartrand (19:11.651)
Okay, okay.
Mark Mowbray (19:36.43)
gathering stuff like that. And then we even say, if you're only coming to one service, like go to the one where you're part of something together. And like right now we have, again, over 30 of our high school and college students hired for the summer who are running our children's ministry. And then a number of those actually out of that, plus that, are volunteers. So it's up over 50. And that's because, you know, that's who you are. Like you serve, you get involved.
Rob Chartrand (19:59.971)
Yeah. Yeah, what an amazing model. I mean, you have to have such versatility in a multi -ethnic context like that. So let me ask you this. The students who are in your youth ministry on Sunday morning, who are from an ethnic background, say Punjabi background or whatnot, would they come to your youth ministry and their parents would drop them off early kind of thing? Because imagine you're a commuting culture and then they'd stay and then they'd attend the 11 o 'clock.
say in their original language people group.
Mark Mowbray (20:31.726)
There are a few children that will attend their service in their language, but for the most part, all the children are part of the English part of it. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (20:44.515)
The English one, yeah. And would you have some families who would, in order to stay together with the family, decide to move from the, say the ethnic church, but into the more multi -ethnic population gathering?
Mark Mowbray (20:58.05)
For sure, for sure, for sure, yes. And what I was going to say though is that I thought you're going to go a different direction with that. But on the on our Friday nights is one of our, you know, over the years, one of our main gatherings for the youth. And it really it's really unique because the parents, it doesn't seem to matter what culture are desperate to see, you know, their children get to know who Christ is. And then from the drop in point of view, the students are used to that.
Rob Chartrand (20:59.619)
or they would stay and let their kids go to the next one. Yeah.
Mark Mowbray (21:26.286)
You know, they just want to be, you know, together and that kind of thing. So they don't really care about that. But one of the ones that is unique is that when you do retreats or some of the other things, it's like, you know, it's most of the time it's unspoken, but like, I'm not sending my kid away, you know, before they're 28. And it's so funny because in some cultures, of course, it's like, take my kid. Yeah. So that dynamic has made us, you know, quite sensitive to how we do.
Rob Chartrand (21:44.259)
Right?
Rob Chartrand (21:50.339)
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (21:56.526)
you know, execute certain of those, I would say, traditional youth ministry events.
Rob Chartrand (22:01.571)
Right, yeah, yeah, it's a challenge to navigate that. I mean, our church in Edmonton, when I was a church planter, we had two other congregations who shared space with us as well. One was Sudanese, the other one's Eritrean. And both of their pastors, when I talked to them, the challenge is that their kids are growing up Canadian, second generation, right? And the kids don't always embrace the language of their family group and they're speaking English. And so there the tension is,
where did they go to church and whatnot. And as an Alliance pastor too, like a lot of pastors would leave, say an ethnic church because their kids went to an English speaking church and they'll follow their kids, right? Cause they want the family to be together. And then others would say, no, let's choose to stay here, but let's create an English service, right? So there's just so many different models and frameworks. So I'm always interested in knowing how churches navigate those issues because they're real issues and every people group is different.
And then within every people group, every family is different. So it's really challenging.
Mark Mowbray (23:02.414)
Yeah. So I want to just point out too, since you've brought that up, one of the things that we work really hard at is that we're one congregation with three language services. And so we try really hard to not call our different language gatherings a congregation. And it's not, we're not trying to prove a point on one hand, but on the other hand, we're trying to distinct, distinct of like, you know, so whether it's a care ministry,
Rob Chartrand (23:15.683)
Yes. Yeah. Great.
Rob Chartrand (23:31.683)
Mm -hmm.
Mark Mowbray (23:31.758)
whether it's the evangelism, you know, pastor, or whether it's the growth groups, like, whatever we're doing, we're saying that as a congregation, we're doing that. But in this time, you know, in consideration of the dynamic of language, you know, it's important to have these worship gatherings like that. But yeah, anyways, I know there's, yeah, there are a lot of different models where people try to ask this question, but for us, that's the door we're pushing open.
Rob Chartrand (24:00.547)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one church language is so incredibly important, right? And then everyone's valued and every expression is valued as well. And there's different models. Like Trinity say out in out west is they have translation services for like, I don't know, a dozen different language groups. And so the sermons are prepared, have to be done by Wednesday, they're translated and people are given headphones when they come in, right? So.
Mark Mowbray (24:20.846)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (24:29.411)
There's just so many different ways to do a multi -ethnic type of a setting. So, yeah. So anyway, fascinating, fascinating. Thanks for sharing. How have you seen youth ministry change over the years? What is changing about young people? What remains the same? What would you say to that?
Mark Mowbray (24:33.678)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Mowbray (24:52.59)
Well, I don't know if this means that I'm really old, but ecclesiastes, yeah, you know, there's nothing new under the sun. But at the same time, you know, I referred, like, I teach a few courses at Heritage College and in the youth ministry course, like that's, that's a whole, one of the whole courses, right, is youth culture and understanding that the one I actually, I'm going to be teaching that this fall, like, you know,
I love using the book, The Five Views, and it always gets the kids in a stir. It's like, no, no, no, this is the way, right? And it's like, OK. But some of the stuff, like Kenda and Dean and some of those, like the one. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Got to call the phone. Sorry, forgive me, Kenda.
Rob Chartrand (25:39.683)
Can decrease edin, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (25:46.574)
the dynamic of a welcoming community, a warm community, a warm environment, you know, the whole idea of, you know, you have to let students be heard or some of these things. So, you know, I think we all know that at your heart. Like one of my favorite lines from a few years ago was like, you know, you do know that they're people, right? And, you know, you can joke about that from youth, like, you know, youth is another culture and that kind of thing. But it's just that general thing of,
like the dreams, the desires, the hopes, like that's what it means to be human. Like that's what it means to have the human experience. Now, the very same time, as you know, like is why we're doing this, is that, yeah, youth art culture and some of these things and some of these fads and some of this stuff, and fad is a very bad word. It doesn't just come and go, like it's very, very, very real to them.
the number of glasses that kids will have if they wear glasses. I'm just like, what? Like, like, I mean, or the kids, you know, the fashions and some of those things. So I think one of the things that is so critical though, is just that listening part. Students want to be listened to. And I think what changes is how do you listen? And so the whole dynamic of time, that doesn't change.
So you give them time, you listen. But the one I remember using in my class was, yeah, these are like my most committed students to my drop -in program. And then you're like, okay, well, like, yeah, they're here right now. And the bottom line is that people, the kids would show up at this drop -in and when the leader saw them come in, she would text them.
and she would converse with them over text while they were in the same building.
Mark Mowbray (27:45.838)
And so as much as that might seem funny, I think some of those things that have changed, we can't be afraid of that and kind of, you know, go with the flow of that and that kind of thing. And because at the very same time, I remember so clearly a number of years ago now when one of the parachurch organizations was, yeah, you know, this is great. We're using this server now because every, you know, communication that we have with the minor is recorded, you know, in Perttuarty and...
don't want our server and stuff like that. So, you know, we're protected. And I'm going like, okay, well, what's going to be the next hoop and what's going to be the next thing? And the point is, like, we constantly have to adjust and realize that no matter what's happening with that, like, we always have to find a way to reach through that. Because again, the things that don't change, they want to be loved, want to know who they are, they want to know, you know, does it matter that I'm here? And, you know, how do you do that?
Rob Chartrand (28:44.619)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, plan to protect is a good thing, right? Because you can remember when we didn't have plan to protect, right? I can remember. I can remember when it came out. And then now that we do have it. But on the other hand, it can also really make it difficult to navigate relationship with a young person. Like you can't go out with them for coffee anymore one on one, or you bring somebody else, you know, and it just introduces different levels of complication for what
Mark Mowbray (28:48.078)
Amen.
Rob Chartrand (29:14.819)
you know, for the work we're trying to do, especially if it's listening and very relational work that we do.
Mark Mowbray (29:19.822)
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to shut the question down, but I can tell you, I mean, and I won't give the number, but I want to tell you it's a decade number, not a teen number. And like over the decades, man, when I cry with kids, when I laugh with kids, when I walk with them, like how that happens changes, but that's what happens.
And that's to me what the ministry is. Like the Chosen is a really cool series and you see Jesus getting his sandals dirty and washing feet. Well, the same washing of feet happens now, but it just looks different. So don't be afraid. Don't miss that and don't run away, whatever you do. Like when people say, how do you relate to teens? It's like, I don't know, maybe I'm just a big kid. Like the people, talk to them.
Rob Chartrand (30:00.195)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:11.491)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:15.683)
Well, let me talk about that real quick. How has your role in youth ministry changed over the years? I mean, remember back in the day when you first started and you were in your early 20s and you were like the cool older brother, right? And then 10 years later you found out, well, I'm not really that anymore. I'm kind of like an uncle. And now you're more like a, I don't know. How have you seen your role as a ministry leader change since then?
Mark Mowbray (30:39.534)
It's so funny the timing of this. I never thought about this just until that came out of your mouth. So yesterday my son called me belated for Happy Father's Day and hey, my kids aren't perfect, but I want to brag on them a bit. And so instead of like, hey dad, you know, happy Father's Day, whatever. He like asked me, what are some memorable times of being a father over this last year?
I'm like, whose kid is this?
Rob Chartrand (31:10.463)
You've grown.
Mark Mowbray (31:12.974)
Yeah, and so just before, so that on Sunday, one of our young adults, I put myself in an awkward position and I said, Hey, how's it going? And then I said, so he's, you know, how you wish me happy Father's Day. And then he's, I said, you know, is your dad here today? And then he kind of got a little bit some for Lauren and he said, you know, my dad's in bed right now. And I just want to thank you for being like a father figure.
And unfortunately, in my case, a grandfather figure, you know, to many people in this setting. And so for sure, I think my role, you know, has changed. A favourite question that I ask, and it makes a lot of people on the boards that I serve on and stuff uncomfortable, but like, like, what does it look like now? And, you know, the insanity definition, right? Like you keep doing the same thing and expect different results. Well,
Like I keep trying to ask that question, what does it look like? So the really key for me is, and when I realized this is the real way out, if you can put it that way, God really was remaking me about every two to five years. And when I realized that, there was so much freedom and so much health in that. And it wasn't just, hey, now I'm the buddy and now I'm the dad or now I'm the grandpa, whatever it is, it's this fact is that,
What does it look like now to minister to these people? So exactly what we just talked about for this church here, it's just like, God, can you have any more sense of humor? Like a 50 something year old guy who was born on a farm, loves animals and the outdoors and you put him in like whatever we are, the ninth largest city in Canada with the most diverse population that there is. I was like, God, like, is this a joke? Like really? So I find that he remakes me and if I'm open to that,
Like my rules have kept changing to keep up with whatever he's, what the church needs or like what I'm supposed to be doing.
Rob Chartrand (33:18.595)
Yeah, so good. And so good for our young listeners to hear that because you might think, man, in five years, I'm going to age out of this ministry. Well, no, you're not necessarily going to age out. Your role is just going to shift because you're shifting. And even churches that are hiring, they want to hire the new, young, cool youth pastor to come in. Hey, listen, you need to broaden your horizons because you might want to get an experienced veteran in their 40s or 50s to come in and do youth ministry. Right? So.
because they're gonna just be handling it differently according to the age that they find themselves in. I mean, that's, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (33:52.334)
Yeah. But I think that is the key is that I definitely had to adjust to that. And then even when I had, you know, family pastor or outreach pastor or, you know, youth in a bigger church when you have, you know, different portfolios and teams and stuff like that, like, I think that if you don't know, if you don't see that, like, you're really missing out. Like, I mean, that's...
I know that that's Jesus model so I can say that, but like a Sun Life to me really helped me with that. Like that's what Jesus did. He built the ministry team. And you know, like if your plan is to like have this huge youth group, like you probably shouldn't be a youth pastor anyways, but it's like you're missing the point. The point is that he only did that. It was a great movement because he built into people, right? A few people.
Rob Chartrand (34:42.019)
Yeah. Well, and you're in the second half, right, of your ministry career and you start looking at things a bit differently. Like when you first start out, you're about making a name for yourself or building something or doing different things or proving something or whatnot. But it's like, I'm too old for that. It hurts enough just getting out of bed. But now, I mean, you're teaching it in a college, right? So your shift is...
has moved a lot more towards legacy, like in terms of raising up a new generation of young people. Is that correct in your situation, Mark?
Mark Mowbray (35:18.766)
Yeah, and thanks, you're leading me well there. I went, I took a program called Crest, I really would recommend it. It's basically about the second half of leadership. And I really, really recommend that Dr. Dan Reinhart. And that question was so, so important. Like, hey, you know, you know, you know, you're not gonna ride a fire truck and you know, you're not gonna go to the moon like.
Rob Chartrand (35:46.467)
I'm out.
Mark Mowbray (35:46.958)
Like you're at the stage of life where you know yourself well enough that these things that you want to do, these things that how God made you, like what do you do with that? And I think that's really, really critical. And for me, that was one of the biggest takeaways from that two years was that, you know, what am I supposed to do with these gifts, these abilities? Great, everybody can ask that questions, but probably more so was what do I do with this experience? And then how does that all come together?
And then again, like I said earlier, to meet the real needs of where I'm called compared to, I can do that. I don't care what you can do. Like, what are you supposed to do? And for me, that's, I would say the sweet spot of being able to see, you know, doing what I'm supposed to do compared to doing what I can do.
Rob Chartrand (36:35.587)
So if you could go back and talk to your 20 something year old self who's just stepping in the ministry, you know, has inherited the youth ministry and gone through college and in this new role, what would you tell yourself? Any lessons that you'd pass on?
Mark Mowbray (36:50.514)
Well, the profound one would be, you know, don't take yourself so seriously and make sure you're taking God more seriously. But the one I got to give you a story. man, this is going to be painful. I was at the top of stuff and things are going really well. This was at the church that, you know, it was the youth group with the church. And since I was so smart,
Rob Chartrand (37:02.243)
good.
Mark Mowbray (37:20.174)
I had set up this basically youth day in the summer and we were going over the top, man. We were going to make it like a high T and riding ponies and polo. We didn't have real ponies, just so you know. And we were going the whole nine yards, taking pictures of people dressed up and all this stuff. Well, one of the students who was helping, he had a different idea of where the pictures should be taken. And of course, in my perfect little mind,
It had to be outside and then while the people are doing that part of the program then they're watching the pictures and it's all part of it. And I can remember to this day what a jerk that I was. And I was upset and I was like being a punk. And then it was just like looking back at that like Mark, like brighten up. Like all these kids came. All these kids wanted to be involved. All these kids were participating. But you know, I...
I missed the point. And so, yeah, God's reprimanded me a few times like that. Mark, don't be a jerk. That's what God was saying to my, that's what I'm saying to my five year in guy.
Rob Chartrand (38:27.107)
Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about that then. Youth Ministry fail stories. Got any more in your back pocket you want to share with us?
Mark Mowbray (38:34.99)
no, are you serious? Did you say I have a choice? No, okay. Okay, I have the classic ones, but I think for me the where part, so a couple of guys that I left behind, I remember way back, Bruce Kuhn, he used to recite the Bible by memory, and he did, I think he did Luke and then he did Acts. Anyways, we took our youth to that. That was powerful.
Rob Chartrand (38:39.971)
So many.
Mark Mowbray (39:03.822)
It wasn't that far away, but we, you know, the classic on the bus, you know, here, here, here. So we get back to the church and the parents like, where's my kid? And then of course, that's when I realized that the kid who wasn't there, that someone was trying to be funny and said here. And of course it's the parents, it's the parents, it's the parents who like had the most issue with me, right? Anyways, but the better one where we did a movie.
Rob Chartrand (39:20.675)
no. no.
Rob Chartrand (39:26.371)
Yeah. How far away were they? Like, what's the? Okay, okay. Yeah.
Mark Mowbray (39:31.566)
No, no, that's like 20 minutes, man. That was an easy one. But the one that killed me was the tip of Manhattan. So we are in, is that called Battery Park? I think we went to New York City. We were on this mission trip. This was literally our kind of our only free time. And all the kids were like, we need to go see the Statue of Liberty. And I was like, no, it costs money to take the ferry. And then the guy goes, no, we'll just take the Statue on a ferry. And you drive by it and you wave and like the kids think that they've seen it. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go, let's go. We run on the ferry.
And then we saw it and we're sitting in the terminal because they make you get off the ferry, you sit in the terminal, then you get back on the ferry going back. And we're sitting there and of course the cutest little, you know, youth girl walks up to me, that's your mic, I don't see bread anywhere. And like instantly, two seconds before we left, he'd asked to go to the washroom. And I'm like, sure, it's right over there. So we left the guy. But luckily he was the smartest kid in the youth group.
Rob Chartrand (40:21.731)
no.
Mark Mowbray (40:27.438)
And so he just, when we got back, he said, well, I knew that we had to take that bus back. So I was just waiting until that bus left.
Rob Chartrand (40:37.155)
Wow. So how long did he wait there then?
Mark Mowbray (40:39.598)
I don't know, probably like an hour and a half or something like that. He's right. The funnier one with doing stuff with kids, I remember so I was the coolest, smartest guy alive and I had bought the piñata and my whack and the snot out of it. And then a leg falls off or something. And then one of the leaders looks at me and goes like, there's no candy in the piñata. And I'm like, you have to put candy in it?
Rob Chartrand (40:42.347)
yeah, he's fine, he's fine.
Rob Chartrand (41:07.651)
man. Well, sometimes they come filled with them now, you know, but. Yeah, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (41:09.742)
Anyways, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (41:14.83)
Yeah, thanks for sticking up with me. Another good one was how I knew that I was at the right church. Actually, this is a church that I was saved in when I went back there. I was only there for a very short time. And, you know, youth was down in the, whatever, the fellowship hall, the lower, the basement, whatever you want to call it. And of course, one of the new kids who had come, they'd wandered off. And then when I found them, there was this big smash. And so,
The bottom line is they jumped up on the communion table because it was sitting in front of the baptismal, but the communion table had a glass cover on it and they kicked the glass cover off and it shattered into pieces. And the kid genuinely said, I wanted to see what was in there. So when I had to tell the elders or whatever, the leadership, what was going on, they said, well, at least nobody was hurt and I'm glad the kid was in the church. And so that's how I knew I was in the right place.
Rob Chartrand (42:13.059)
Yes, yes. man, we could have a long conversation about that. Yes, sure, the kids put some dance in the walls, but what's worth more, you know, a little bit of drywall or the eternal soul of a young person, you know, like, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (42:17.55)
you
Mark Mowbray (42:27.438)
Yeah. No, the one, no, the guy, that's another story. The guy, he put his fist right through it and it wasn't a death.
Rob Chartrand (42:35.107)
Okay. It shattered it. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a question I ask everyone. Every one of you old guys is because I think it's an important question. I mean, we know that the stats on resiliency and pastors lasting in ministry, I mean, half of them don't make it past the first five years, but we're seeing this as well with young people being resilient disciples. But for you,
Mark Mowbray (42:38.446)
Anyways.
Rob Chartrand (43:04.931)
You've been at this a long time. How have you stayed in this game this long?
Mark Mowbray (43:11.662)
Yeah, I'll get serious.
I do not say this as a cliche, but the only way that it works for me is that I know God, I know Jesus, and Jesus knows me. I don't know about God. I don't know about Jesus. And that intimate relationship to me is because this makes no sense. I could be having so much fun. I could be doing so many things. I was a really big frog in a little pond where I came from. And it's like,
For me, it's like when you're doing what God wants you to do, like I literally feel sorry for the people who miss that. And especially in ministry of like, buddy, this isn't a job. Like, if you think you're not getting paid enough, just quit because it's not worth it, let me tell you. The second thing I would say when I mentioned my wife, Karen, like literally, yeah, my wife has never given me opposition. We're moving here, we're doing that.
Rob Chartrand (44:06.819)
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (44:19.246)
And I'll tell you, like, I mean, super deeply, like, when she's made the best relationships or just settled in, that's usually when we have been called and asked to be moved. We went back to a reunion and it just, you know, it almost makes me cry. Like, so she was part of this baby group and I think there was like 15 babies in it. It was just amazing, amazing, cool phase of our life.
And we went back to the 10 year reunion and our son was the oldest and they lined them all up on the staircase. And it was just like, what, what a sweet, you know, phase. And so my wife, like she left all that when those old kids were small, we moved to another ministry and different times like that. And, you know, what I already just said, you know, just like, if you don't love what you do, like that's, that's good. Sorry. If you're not staying in the ministry, don't just leave because if you don't love it, you shouldn't be doing it. And for me,
Rob Chartrand (44:55.555)
All right, yeah.
Mark Mowbray (45:13.006)
I get to, you know, the joke, right? I never work a day in my life. And please don't get me wrong, I've had some really tough times, like really tough ones, but that's how it stayed. God knows.
Rob Chartrand (45:25.443)
Well, and just to make the distinction, Mark, I mean, between loving the ministry and having a bad church experience that you're in, right? Because you can still go to another church. If the church you're in, the experience isn't working, but you do love the ministry of young people, right? So it's important to know that difference.
Mark Mowbray (45:39.406)
Amen.
Yeah, yeah, I know that's very, very true.
Rob Chartrand (45:46.562)
Sorry, I cut you off. Were you going to share something else too?
Mark Mowbray (45:50.734)
No, I don't think so. I'll sing another chorus of how great my wife is.
Rob Chartrand (45:57.635)
Well, you know, like my wife had her name happens to be Karen as well, but I was just talking to her today is just like every time you move churches, you're starting all over again with relationships, especially if you go to a different city. Right. And that's that is a challenge for pastors is your year rebuilding again and again and challenge for pastors wives as well if or spouses, you know, so.
Mark Mowbray (46:21.006)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. For spouse, yeah. I mean, the blessing that we've had the last 10 years, Karen actually, she's been as the assistant registrar for Heritage Seminary. And she's really found a ministry there. And that's, I would say almost like semi -claimed the fame I have is that I've supported her in that pair too. So she actually right now, the last six years, she's driven.
back and forth. So she drives, it's about an hour, over an hour drive so that she can work there because she really feels that's her call to ministry. So yeah.
Rob Chartrand (46:56.675)
Yeah, those who don't know the GTA don't know that experience of that commute. Does she have to do it five days or does she at least get like four days and one at home?
Mark Mowbray (47:04.43)
Yeah, she only has to do it three, so yeah, thank God. But the drive makes up for it.
Rob Chartrand (47:06.723)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's six hours of your life every week. I hope she likes podcasts. You know, she should listen to Church in the North. I hear it's a great podcast. Yeah.
Mark Mowbray (47:13.166)
Yep.
Mark Mowbray (47:17.486)
I've heard that too. Yeah, the great guys come out there and great great leader. Why?
Rob Chartrand (47:23.459)
Well, hey, as our time draws to a close, I wonder if you could give a final word of encouragement to our listeners.
Mark Mowbray (47:29.87)
Hey, I want to read, I would call it my verse, and I read this at my ordination, and it's etched into the sidewalk at our house, and we put in a new sidewalk. And of course, the kids think it's like, what'd you forget? Because it says PS 40, PlayStation 40.
I waited patiently for the Lord. He turned to me, He heard my cry. He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and the mire, set my feet on a rock. He gave me a firm place to stand. He put a new song in my mouth. He gave me a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear the Lord and put their faith and trust in Him. Blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods. Many, Lord my God, are the wonders you have done, the things you have planned for us.
none can compare with you were I to speak and tell of your deeds they would be too many to declare. Sacrifice an offering you did not desire but my ears you have opened. Burn offerings and sin offerings you did not require. And then I said here I am I have come it's written about me in the scroll I desire to do your will my God your law is within my heart. I proclaim your saving acts in the great assembly I do not seal my lips Lord as you know.
I do not hide your righteousness in my heart. I speak of your faithfulness and your saving help. I do not conceal your love and your faithfulness from the great assembly." Then he calls out and he says, don't withhold your mercy from me, Lord. May your love and faithfulness always protect me because troubles without number have surrounded me. My sins have overtaken me and I cannot see. They're more than the hairs of my head and my heart fails within me. Be pleased to save me, Lord. Come quickly, Lord, to help me.
And may all who want to take my life be put to shame and confusion. May all who desire my ruin be turned back to disgrace. May those who say to me, aha, aha, be appalled at their own shame. But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you. May those who long for your saving help always say, the Lord is great. But as for me, I am poor and needy. And may the Lord think of me. You are my help. You are my deliverer.
Mark Mowbray (49:52.014)
You are my God. Do not delay. I...
People come and say sometimes, hey, even again teaching the course, like, how do we do this, you know, old school? How do you replicate this? Put this in a package, sell this, market this. And all I ever say is like.
Not like the baseball guys, sorry, sorry. Like I point to God. Like, come on, are you serious? Like, look at this face. I mean, listen to me talk. Like, you think this has any ability to win people to Christ or to help out anybody? And so to me, the words of wisdom, the words of advice is if you're hanging on to anything, if you're doing anything in your own strength, give up because...
You've got to have the understanding, know that God is the reason that this works, that only when we give ourselves, surrender ourselves to Him, always giving to Him, always going to Him, always having Him at the center. The remix is the urban mission that I've been with for the last 20 years where we trained in disciple students and their byline is, how do you learn to center your life with on the mission and message of Jesus? And for me,
That's the lesson that I keep needing to learn. If my life isn't centered on his message, if my life isn't centered on his mission, I will always default to doing things that I wanna do and then I'll always find a reason to complain or get stuck instead of like rejoicing in what he's doing. So it's worth it guys. Don't quit now. The fun's just gonna start.
Rob Chartrand (51:37.347)
Yeah. Yeah. Good word. Thank you for sharing that. Well, our time's come to an end here. Thanks so much for joining us for this summer conversation, Mark, and hope to hear from you soon, get you maybe back on the podcast for the final second half, the fourth quarter of the journey.
Mark Mowbray (52:00.334)
Okay, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (52:02.307)
Yeah. It's been a delight and thank you for taking the time to share with our listeners today.
Mark Mowbray (52:08.142)
Yeah, bless you and thanks so much for what you're doing and I love it that, yeah, we get to share these ministry stories together, but the stories, of course, right, are all about what God's doing in people's lives. So may our tribe increase of those who love these students and want to see them come to know the Lord.
Rob Chartrand (52:17.443)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (52:26.307)
Amen. Amen.