Rob Chartrand (00:04.649)
Well, hey, we are excited to have on the podcast today, Sid Koop. He is the executive director of Youth Worker Community and the executive director of Truth Matters and the executive director of His Own Life. So.
Sid Koop (00:17.006)
Yeah, no, I'm not actually Gen Z executive director of my life. I'm quite sure to be honest with you, but
Rob Chartrand (00:25.033)
And we're so glad to have you here, Sid, for our Old Youth Guys Summer Series. I thought as I was putting this together, well, how can I do this series without Sid Coupe, my old friend? Because, I mean, he's really long in the tooth and he's been around for a while and yeah. So Sid, the cool thing is, I mean, you are the first guest on Church in the North who's appeared twice. You're the first person. Nobody's got a second, nobody's got a repeat yet, but you're it, man. But...
Sid Koop (00:49.037)
DROH!
Sid Koop (00:52.782)
This is a privilege.
Rob Chartrand (00:55.305)
You qualify because you're old. Anyway, welcome to Church in the North again.
Sid Koop (00:57.55)
take it. It's good to be here Rob. Yeah thank you so much. I sure appreciate you. Appreciate what you do and this is such a privilege. I love it. So good. Two guys who have experienced a chunk of ministry under the belt talking about talking about the journey. It's the right thing.
Rob Chartrand (01:10.953)
Yeah. So we're not going to go into all of your backstory. And the reason why for our listeners, you can go back and you can find another podcast. And I've got Sid's kind of backstory, a bit of call into ministry and all of that. But I mean, you've been in youth ministry roles, Sid, you've been in at the helm of Truth Matters and the executive director role now. And I'm going to talk a little bit more about that. But let me first ask you this question, though. I mean, talk to us about family. I mean, you've you're married, you got kids. Were your kids ever in your youth ministry?
Sid Koop (01:41.007)
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean when I talk about family by the way I talk I'd love to chat a little bit about Jen if I get a chance my wife obviously so my experience in youth Yeah, yeah, okay good. So let me just start with this so first of all I wish I could say that I was super intentional about like kind of the journey of of deciding Choosing a spouse if that makes sense I wish Jen could you know Jen and maybe if you ever asked Jen she'd say she was super intentional which would be shocking to me because I don't know how I ended up with her. I
Rob Chartrand (01:48.969)
Yeah, we'll talk about her role in it too. Yeah.
Sid Koop (02:11.056)
But you know when Jen and I met, I knew that she loved youth ministry to a certain degree and I knew that I was incredibly attracted and in love with her period. So you know I was in. But I was so blessed Rob because I married someone who loved me and also loved youth ministry. And so that was a game changer because there was like a number of times when I was struggling a little bit with my calling like do I stay in this? Is this what I'm supposed to do? Where she felt very passionate about it.
Rob Chartrand (02:30.217)
Mm -hmm, yeah.
Sid Koop (02:40.432)
and she would push me. So I'll tell you two quick stories because that's going to set the table then for the other conversation. I remember it was Truth Matters, it was a travel ministry right from the very beginning. So even when I was overseeing the youth ministry in Lethbridge, we were there for 11 years, Canmore for four years. I was still traveling a lot of weekends. And Jen was in on that. So at one point I was thinking about, man, maybe I should pull back on travel and stuff. And I'll never forget, kind of like unsolicited, we were just in our room. I think our boys were just little.
And all of a sudden she comes to me and she goes, hey listen, I've been noticing that you are not bringing your A game to this ministry thing. And just to be clear, TruthMatter did not hire her, but she felt compelled in terms of the mission of it. She goes, I am bringing my A game. She goes, I've got our kids, our kids are good, we're healthy, we're fine. I'm not sure what you're doing, but you really need to pick your game up. So she was very invested in that. And then, second thing.
Rob Chartrand (03:32.361)
Wow, nice.
Sid Koop (03:36.497)
is when we would travel, we'd travel all summer speaking at different camps and live in an RV. And I remember I came back from a main session, I just finished speaking, and I sat down at our trailer and I knew she was not pleasing. And it was not hard for me to figure out when I was not in, you know, when Jen and I were having tensions. Like it's clear, we're both pretty intense personalities, it's happening. And so finally I go, Jen, what is going on? And she's like, she goes, what's going on? She goes, what's going on with you?
And she's like, I don't understand what's going on with you right now. And this was a season again, when I was wrestling a little bit with calling and ministry stuff. And she goes, when we used to go to camps, you could enter she says this to me, she goes, when we used to come and speak at camps, you would enter the camp. And you could help change and set the whole culture of the environment because you were so invested. And you were so in it. And she goes,
I don't know what you're doing now, but I can't figure out why you're sitting here at the trailer when all those kids are out there doing activities and stuff. And I'm like, whoa. So then I said something like, well, I just wanted to check on the kids and make sure they're good and you're good. And we've got like a long summer. And she goes, the kids are fine. Kids are absolutely fine. I've got the kids. They're fine. And then she looks at me and she goes, listen.
I know you're wrestling with this thing and maybe you think we're done and that's fine. If we're done, we're done. Let's shut it down. She goes, but I don't think we're done yet. Not till you give it your 100 % again. She's like, just boom, boom, boom. So I'm like sitting there and I go into the RV and I'm kind of ticked off and I go into the RV and I feel like God says, well, I've spoken. Are you listening? And I was like, shoot. So then I thought I'd, you know, I was pretty, I was like, okay, I got to get my head screwed on straight. So I come back outside and go, Hey Jen, where's our cell phone? She goes, I don't know.
Rob Chartrand (05:04.809)
Wow.
Sid Koop (05:14.61)
Why she goes well, I think you're right. I'm finished and I want to call the other camps and cancel our camps for the summer and she just fires up I go just kidding. I said You're right and I need to get my act together But this was like this was where Jen was like so dead and actually it probably defines her ministry now as the director of camp Where she was so intentional and intense like she was always pushing me to be fully invested in the ministry environments We were in just think about that. You have a spouse who's fully pushing you in that way?
Rob Chartrand (05:20.841)
you
Sid Koop (05:43.634)
So when we would go to camps, the whole thing was, yeah, what you do off the stage directly affects how the gospel is heard when you're on the stage. So we were playing the games. I was playing the games. She would bring the kids, they would play the games. She would play the games. Like we were just invested. That was her whole MO. When it came to ministry, I mean, you know, again, when I was youth pastor in Canmore and in Lethbridge, she was always volunteering in the youth ministry and not volunteering as my wife.
he was volunteering as a youth leader. That's a very big distinction. So she wasn't like a quote unquote pastor's wife the way you might think about it. In fact, she hated that concept for her, but she was like invested in being a youth leader and she loved working in this ministry. So when we had Peyton, we were in Canmore and two weeks after Peyton, she's had Peyton, she's home from the hospital, comes to the first youth night she can come to and she breaks her ankle playing basketball with the boys because that's what she's doing. So then,
Rob Chartrand (06:13.449)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (06:36.905)
no. no.
Sid Koop (06:39.507)
for the next two weeks until she got her walking cast, I would wake up in the morning, I'd put Peyton on the bed with her, I'd put diapers on the bed with her, I'd put food on the bed with her, and then I'd say, I'll see you afterward. And that was like, yeah, that's normal, that's just how we were. So that was, that kind of set the stage in our ministry. So then when you think about my boys growing up, so we were really big on, our kids are just gonna come with us and be a part of our ministry as much as possible. And I'm not,
not in a way that interfered with ministry, but they were in our space. And then what started happening is we had parents of our kids be willing to babysit our kids while we did ministry, so that was pretty cool. But like that was kind of Jen's journey with her boys. The other thing that happened is while I would travel, and sometimes there would be tensions for the boys, especially why is dad traveling so much. Jen would never talk about the ministry. She would talk about work and she would say to the boys, hey boys, lots of dads travel.
to help provide for their homes and so does your dad. So if there was a bad guy it was work whereas ministry was the friend if that makes sense. So she framed that really uniquely and differently so that was quite something. Now my boys, both Peyton and Cole had two very different experiences in terms of ministry with their parents. So we traveled all summer together, they loved that. Peyton in grade six was in my youth ministry in Lethbridge for grade six.
Rob Chartrand (07:38.313)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (07:43.369)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (07:56.681)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (08:04.114)
50 -50 on how good that was. 50 -50. Didn't love it. His life got much better when we moved to Kelowna and he went to a youth ministry without me involved. So now he could start to be known by his first name more than his last name. That was awesome for him. What was problematic is at his Christian school I was a chaplain so he couldn't get away from me there. And then at camp his mom was the director. That was hard. Especially if his mom had to remove his friends. That was very, very difficult.
Rob Chartrand (08:15.817)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (08:21.289)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (08:29.545)
Okay.
Sid Koop (08:32.978)
So I would say Peyton had a love -hate relationship with the ministry. Told me he would never do youth ministry all the way growing up until he hit about 17 or 18. And then he came to us and said, hey, this is what I want to do with my life, which was shocking to us. But, you know, fantastic. So then he's been working at the camp. This will be his last year working camp with us. Cole, you know, Cole unfortunately COVID hit when he was entering into high school. And so, you know, youth ministry changed a lot. No mission strips, all that sort of stuff.
Rob Chartrand (08:42.345)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (08:58.697)
yeah.
Sid Koop (09:03.154)
This is actually now, so Cole is in university, this is the first year where he's actually wants to work back at camp and reinvest here. He's been serving in youth ministry as a volunteer, so they both have had really positive senses that way. I think Peyton especially, you'd have to ask him, I mean he's old enough to have the conversation, obviously. He would struggle a little bit with just I think my presence in youth ministry as he does his journey. You know, he tried to wrestle through some of those things, but overall.
God's been really good to us, both my boys have a love for the church. Both feel called to serve Jesus. Peyton right now vocationally, Cole maybe, I'm not sure. And then of course we're weird because Jen, while I was the executive director of Youth Worker Community, Jen became the executive director of Green Bay Bible Camp. So you have two parents that are at that level of leadership and ministry and that creates some tensions. But at the same time,
Rob Chartrand (09:43.529)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (09:58.61)
the boys have had adventures that they wouldn't have gotten in any other space. I mean, Rob, I remember when we bought paintball guns for the church in Lethbridge. Best day ever for my boy. Like, you know, dad, can we go do paintball? Yes, we can. And so, you know, every birthday was, you know, so there was lots of fun benefits like that too. Pretty cool.
Rob Chartrand (10:12.873)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's that's amazing. And just to clarify, Jen is the executive director of Green Bay Bobble Camp.
Sid Koop (10:24.69)
Yeah, now that's a funny story dude. There's stories about ministry clash there that are wild. So I've been speaking at Green Bay since 1998. When Jen and I got married and moved here, they hired her as program director then executive, but I had longer history. And also I'm a little bit of a fighter. So there were certain things happening at camp that required some engagement, so I would engage. But what happened is like I kind of started leaning into Jen's area of responsibility and leadership. So...
Rob Chartrand (10:53.705)
Sid Koop (10:54.61)
Multiple times dude, Jen would come to me and she would say, hey, you are chopping my leadership legs out from under me. You gotta stop and you gotta let me fight my battles. I was like, whoa. So Rob, you know, think about this. As a husband, we feel an appropriate compelling to protect and provide for our families, especially for our spouse. Do you know what I mean? And I had to learn that God had called my wife to leadership. So.
Rob Chartrand (11:03.465)
Right.
Sid Koop (11:22.802)
Protecting and providing and figuring out how to love my wife well was not Trying to shield her from the hardships that go with ministry leadership because she was called to be a leader My job is to figure out how to get behind the scenes and actually support and come alongside and journey with her as she led Which I got to be honest. I think I'm still hitting 50 -50 on that one But it's been a really interesting conversation in our home to work through some of that stuff. So that thing
Rob Chartrand (11:41.193)
That's right.
Yeah, yeah.
Sid Koop (11:49.81)
Last thing I'll say is this, there was a point where I thought I would jump out of youth ministry leadership and move into a different space in the church. This is while Jen was still stay at home mom. And she didn't process with it, process with me with it too much. I did a fair amount on my own and we, you know, we come together. And at the end of it, she just said, I got to be honest. She goes, it was hard for me to think about you not being in ministry anymore in youth ministry, because I was going to stay in youth ministry. It just meant that we wouldn't be involved in the same things. She goes, and that would have been interesting. I was like,
Rob Chartrand (12:17.257)
Right.
Sid Koop (12:19.378)
Super fascinating. So interesting dynamic that we, I would say unique dynamic we've had in our home on that space.
Rob Chartrand (12:25.289)
Yeah, well, and it is unique. I mean, as I'm speaking to other old youth guys, I mean, not everybody has their spouses as involved as you have, or even as I'm like, in my situation is very similar. I mean, Karen was very involved in our student ministry, not as the pastor's wife, although she did play piano. But yeah, but she would I mean, she led worship teams, she led small groups, she you know, she was very involved as a youth leader in the ministry all along. And then our kids, you know, they were
Sid Koop (12:32.818)
Right?
Sid Koop (12:40.434)
Great. there it is.
Rob Chartrand (12:55.145)
dragged along like they were part of the youth ministry because she would come and but they were never in my youth group which was I got out of the youth ministry gig at the time when my kids just about that were hitting that age so I think that might have been a good thing at the end but
Sid Koop (12:57.33)
Totally.
Sid Koop (13:09.298)
I don't know. Yeah, you right. Yeah, I talked to some youth pastors Rob who loved having their kids in their youth group and each kid is really different. You know what I mean? I think it would have been very bad for PK for me to be in that space. I think Cole might have been okay, but I'm really thankful. You know, and the one thing I did to Robin, maybe this is for youth pastors where your kids are kind of, you know, at that age. When Peyton started in youth group, I went to his youth pastor and just said to him, I said, Hey, listen, PK is going to have stuff. He's going to want to process and download about his relationship with me.
Rob Chartrand (13:15.177)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (13:21.417)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (13:38.866)
Your job is not to defend me. Because he needs a space. Like I know I'm not perfect. I know we've had struggles and he's going to need a space where he doesn't have to be the youth pastor's son. He just gets to be Peyton and he's going to need you to add gate form. So I had a neat relationship with his youth pastor where we could have some of those conversations as well, which I think were helpful.
Rob Chartrand (13:43.657)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (13:57.961)
Yeah, so good. Well, I mean, similar and our youth pastor in our church reported to me, right? And that was their youth pastor, right? And I had to say the same thing. I'm gonna treat them like any other kid. I mean, and with any other parent because, you know, I make parenting mistakes all the time. So, you know, I mean, and I just didn't want my kids to have that PK pressure at all. I wanted them to be able to just be a kid like everybody else. So we...
Sid Koop (14:05.466)
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Sid Koop (14:17.074)
Sid Koop (14:23.602)
right?
Sid Koop (14:27.122)
Hey Rob, do you think like, yeah, and I wonder if we could ever fully release them from it. Like did you feel like, like I think I worked hard at that too, and I, you know, I just wondered if they still lived under that umbrella a little bit. What'd you think? What would your kids say about that, do you think?
Rob Chartrand (14:27.529)
We worked really hard at that.
Rob Chartrand (14:44.265)
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that there was some pressure for that. I mean, I'm who I am. I'm a big presence. And so I'm sure, you know, physically as well as, you know, I fill the room, right? So, but I think, but it just, I didn't want to have that pressure. And I worked hard at this with our church that my kids had to perform and be better than any other kid.
Sid Koop (14:50.546)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Sid Koop (15:11.09)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know.
Rob Chartrand (15:11.785)
Like morally, I mean, like, and just give them lots of slack and they're going to make mis - so I think our church was very good about that. Well, we planted it. So we created that culture, right? So people, people weren't pulling out First Timothy and pulling out the deacons past and you got to manage your own family well and all that, you know, like they weren't doing that. Like, so.
Sid Koop (15:23.202)
so nice.
Sid Koop (15:30.162)
Yeah, that's a win. I love that.
Rob Chartrand (15:34.217)
Yeah, yeah, so let me talk about your current gig, Lenton, and let's just spend a ton of time there, but give everybody like a bird's eye view. What does it mean to be the executive director of everything?
Sid Koop (15:46.066)
Yeah, so first of all, I appreciate the title. It's not quite accurate, but I appreciate it. But when it does come to be, and by the way, my wife, as I've already said, she reminds me that I'm not the executive director of everything. So that's probably pretty wise, which is fantastic. So being the executive director of Youth Worker Community is just an incredible privilege. I would have never dreamed that we would still be doing it. It's just over 20 years old, the organization. The umbrella organization is Truth Matters Ministries.
Rob Chartrand (15:51.377)
you
Sid Koop (16:14.706)
And one of our key strategies was working with youth workers. And so that was where youth worker community came from. We're actually the big reveal. We're in a process of maybe just acknowledging that 99 % of our time is with youth workers and that should actually be our organization. We are radically committed to the truth and to the scriptures as always. We think it's foundational for any good youth work. But we think that that's where most of our time is. So anyways, that's our focus. But it is an incredible privilege.
Rob Chartrand (16:30.281)
Mm.
Sid Koop (16:44.882)
One of the things I love about it and one of the challenges is that we get to work with youth workers right across Canada, which again is a tremendous privilege because the community is broad and amazing. So many great people that we get to meet with and I love it so much. I feel a burden of responsibility to help steward kind of like you do Rob, the number of years that God's given me in far as youth ministry experience goes and just owning the fact that after like 30 years,
I need to figure out how to best pass on learnings to the next generation of leaders. In fact, it was funny, I was pretty opposed to mentoring next gen leaders because I didn't feel like I had anything to offer. And I was pretty insecure about it, probably mostly because of all my mistakes. And I had at the same time when I was wrestling with it, I had two people come to me and just say, I was in that leadership program, they said, hey, you have to take responsibility for the years you've been given and start reinvesting.
and I had two groups of people do that. So I started taking it more seriously at that point in time. But I feel very privileged to be able to do that, very thankful. And then at the same time, very nervous about the fact that when you're running an organization and you'd feel this, I would think too, Rob, where you're doing a lot of teaching and working with theory, you can quite quickly become distant from the practice and the realities of what's happening on the ground. So I think about going through COVID.
Rob Chartrand (18:06.601)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (18:09.947)
You know, I'm so thankful that I was working here at the camp or with Jen so I could actually feel what was taking place in COVID for people in ministry. Otherwise I could never really relate to it very well in my theoretical space. So in one sense, I love working at this broad level. And then also part of what we do as an organization is contracts with other ministries to help doing like consulting or even executing in their ministries. So Green Bay is a contract YWC has, which is a camp.
And I fulfill our responsibility with a contract by doing leadership development and discipleship of staff. So, you know, I just spent right before this, this, our podcast, I was working through the devotional guide that our youth ministry leader has created for our students and go, Hey, I think this is the wrong kind of question. I think we need to go here. What do we do there? You know, just met with our discipleship directors and working through with them, even like program elements. Hey, how are we doing our guys night? What does that look like?
Rob Chartrand (19:06.441)
in the next video.
Sid Koop (19:07.77)
And then, you know, and so I get to be right on the ground doing ministry in this time, which I'm so thankful for because I think the number one reason, Rob, is because it continues to grow humility. Because when you're on the ground, you realize you don't know quite as much as you think you should, as you do. And you realize who the heroes are. The heroes are the people that are trying to figure out how to disciple kids on the daily. And so it repositions you well. And so I just think this is the Lord's grace to me.
to remind me I have lots to learn, to remind me who the heroes are that are doing this work. And so humility is the wonderful space that God does his best work in and through. So with YWC, I get to do the conferences nationally. So we do about, what do we do now? About eight or nine conferences across Canada. Heavy emphasis on volunteer youth workers. We love them very much. Then we have our two -year program for youth ministry leadership development, which is called the Coalition for Youth Ministry Leadership.
Rob Chartrand (19:49.737)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (20:07.162)
So I have a director there, he's fantastic, does a great job, love being a part of that, just taught in the coalition, love that. And then we do have some of these contracts that we're doing, which are great. We're also doing digital resources, developing some of those. And then finally, we get to be a part of research. So we're part of another kind of multi -organizational research project on social media and the effects that social media has on adolescent faith formation.
Rob Chartrand (20:10.921)
Yes. Yep.
Sid Koop (20:33.434)
So Briar Crest is one of our partners on that project. Youth for Christ, Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, Power to Change, a whole bunch of them. So that really, like Rob, God gave me a ministry that works for my need to have a whole bunch of different things going at the same time kind of idea so I can jump from one to the other. And I love it. I'm so thankful to be able to do it. It is such a privilege. And I don't know how long the Lord will allow me to keep doing it, but I wouldn't mind doing it for a few more years yet.
Rob Chartrand (20:51.657)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (21:02.537)
Now you volunteered in a local youth group as well in your local church for a year or so, right? Are you still doing that or have you stepped out?
Sid Koop (21:09.306)
Yeah, so I, well I bounce in and out of it. So Trinity Church here, I volunteered, I'm the worst volunteer in the whole entire world because I keep traveling and stuff like that. So I don't land consistently. So I made myself, you know, when I can't be on site, which was not very much, the youth pastor and I try to talk every other week and just talk youth ministry and he'll bounce the ideas and I'll try to help journey with him. I tried to do a little bit of investing in our leaders there. I think that's a great way for me to invest at this stage in my life.
But if I'm honest, like I'm seriously the worst volunteer in the world and I create frustration just because consistency is not, is hard for me to come by sometimes. So I'm thankful for it. I do, the one thing I miss, I can say this, maybe I can say this. I wonder, so in one of our contracts when we were in Edmonton, I preached, I was contracted to help with the youth ministry but also I preached at the church once a month. And I missed that. And one day I wonder if the Lord will allow me.
Rob Chartrand (21:45.833)
Right. Yeah.
Sid Koop (22:07.642)
to either A, oversee a church youth ministry again, I'd like to take the learnings from camp and figure out how it works at church again, or B, I'd like to preach a little bit more consistently one day. Those are kind of the two things I just kind of go learn. If you ever want to open those again, that'd be pretty cool. But otherwise, I'm so thankful for what I get to do.
Rob Chartrand (22:28.137)
Yeah. So, Sid, how have you seen youth ministry change over the years? And I think this is tied to a second question is what is changing about young people? Yeah, and because we're going to contextualize our ministries towards if we're doing it well, towards the changes we're seeing in young people. So thinking back over your long years.
Sid Koop (22:37.69)
That's the right question.
Sid Koop (22:47.705)
Yeah. Yeah. That, you know, it's funny I wrestle with that question because I sometimes not sure how to answer it, like how to really analyze it. Here's the language I'm using right now when I'm thinking about that question, Rob. I don't think that the elements of discipleship have changed a whole lot over like maybe 2000 years. I think the scriptures and Jesus has really modeled and laid out for us what are some of the key pieces of deep discipleship that need to be in place. You know, like,
Rob Chartrand (23:05.065)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Sid Koop (23:16.478)
Obviously, discipleship at the very core is growing in our love for Jesus and growing in our love for others. You know what I mean? When Jesus is asked, what's the greatest commandment? That's it. Okay, duh. Obviously, the need to be in the scriptures to understand who Jesus is and grow more deeply in our relationship with him through the word is important. We need to experience him. We need to be involved in ministry. Community is essential and key to that journey, obviously. Lots of these things are the same. I think the obstacles that we have to overcome,
to help our students enter into this space are much more complex than they've ever been. So, you know, right now in my mind, a couple things. I think how culture's core values are moving farther and farther away from our Christian core values, if you will, that's a unique challenge. In some ways, it probably makes our counter -cultural presence more obvious than it has in the past. That's probably a benefit.
Rob Chartrand (23:47.721)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (24:06.633)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (24:14.847)
I think the church has always done well under cultural pressure and that's becoming more clear. There's more animosity or antagonism I think culturally towards the church. I'm not sure that's a bad thing actually. In some ways I think that the church can thrive there. But that is a real issue that's significant. So let me give you an implication of that.
I think that as youth pastors, we could suggest we were doing pretty good discipleship when we had like one program space per week that we could open up the scriptures with our students and pray with them, that sort of thing. I just, but I think what we were relying on was that what we were trying to give or download to our students, culture affirmed in some ways, in some ways, and families affirmed a lot. And so we were contributing to that.
Rob Chartrand (25:01.769)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (25:07.872)
With greater distance in those areas now, I'm asking myself the question, is that enough time for us to do what we need to do? You know what I mean? Like, is there a greater investment that we're being asked to? You know, does our leadership acumen have to grow so that we can have other people investing more deeply over time in order to do that? And then I think the biggest one for me right now that I'm caught up in is of course our digital platforms. And...
And it's not so much the internet, whatever, the internet is a wonderful place to pass information on. Fine. I think, you know, the smartphone and the work of social media platforms and apps have changed the game so radically. And it's not, I used to think about it primarily in terms of what kind of content is being delivered to our people. That was my concern.
Now it's simply the role of the platform to change our thinking capacities and the amount of distraction that is creating that concerns me a lot. As in I don't even know if we have the space to make room to hear God's voice and I don't know if we have the capacity, wait how do I want to put this, the capacity to engage in undistracted thinking that's going to be required.
Rob Chartrand (26:08.457)
Right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (26:21.897)
Okay.
Sid Koop (26:26.943)
in order for us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. You know what I mean? Like those are my huge concerns that I have right now, Rob. And we haven't even talked about issues like pornography or, you know, online bullying or, or any of that kind of stuff. You know, TikTok influencers, all that stuff. But I just, I even just think the algorithmic nature or the nature of design as far as creating distraction and the inability to like,
Rob Chartrand (26:30.697)
Yeah, for sure.
Rob Chartrand (26:37.961)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Sid Koop (26:52.511)
properly finished tasks and thoughts, you know, the fragmentation of thinking, those are huge concerns to me that have created a very different environment to do discipleship in for the next generation.
Rob Chartrand (27:02.921)
Yeah, so I think of the book in the shallows and his criticism of social media and the internet environment is, you know, we cannot have prolonged arguments about things, we can't sustain a prolonged argument, we can't read more than two or three pages without our mind blowing up, right? Whereas back in the day, when we were, you know, so we see this in the college when we're signing books to students, and, and they can't get read more than one or two pages without picking up their phone, right? It's just because
Sid Koop (27:14.399)
wow.
Sid Koop (27:19.647)
Right?
Rob Chartrand (27:32.265)
They're just, they just have to constantly change the page, constantly change the environment and they're not used to that. So the brains, the brains are being shaped and reshaped by the devices. So you're right. It's not just the content. It's the medium itself is, is changing.
Sid Koop (27:43.584)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (27:48.96)
Yeah, so here are my two things. Here's the two things Rob that I'm wrestling with. I think of youth pastors, we probably need to. Three things I would say. Number one, as youth pastors, are we creating the space that allows us to do the deep thinking that's necessary to be really intentional about overcoming the obstacles that we need to overcome to help our kids grow deep in their relationship with Jesus? That's the first thing I'm wrestling with. Personally, right? And I think, you know, in our program, we're talking to our students a lot about, hey, like, how are you managing your...
your thought life? Are you, you know, are we, so there's a couple, you know, I'm thinking about can we become comfortable with boredom because boredom is a place of great creativity. You know, does our phone, does it own us? Are we creating undistracted spaces? You know, the language right now is around like every time you respond to a text or an email, it's probably gonna take you about 15 minutes to re -engage properly the task that you wanna work through in a way that can allow you to do the right kind of thinking necessary for it. So just think about that.
That's a big, it's not even just the distraction of the email, it's like now resetting your mind to come back to where you were and you have some residual work to do, which is truly hard work. Are we doing that hard work? So I think about that. I think about our volunteers that we're asking to actually disciple our students. Are we discipling them to help create space to become better thinkers and be aware of God's presence? And then number three, how are we actually then also now creating space for students to become really aware of Jesus?
Rob Chartrand (28:48.393)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (29:18.018)
and grow in that space as well and develop practices that will help them faithfully follow Jesus and continue to grow over the long period of time. So, again, I just think the complexity of the environment we're in has changed a lot over the last while.
Rob Chartrand (29:31.841)
Well, and it's not just that our students are in their devices, our volunteers are in their devices, our youth workers are in their devices, and the parents are in the devices. So, right, and if primacy for discipleship belongs in the Christian home, rather than in the Christian youth ministry, like, what does that mean for the formation of this emerging generation? It's, there's no room for, well, you know,
Sid Koop (29:38.753)
cute.
huge huge yeah
Sid Koop (29:49.345)
bright.
Rob Chartrand (29:58.921)
you and I are reading the same books, deep work. I mean, there's no room for that, right? Because we're so stuck in distractedness.
Sid Koop (30:04.865)
Yeah, and we are reading the same books and we agree because I think it's the right stuff to be reading and wrestling through. You know, the other one too, Rob, and we won't spend a ton of time getting into it, but you know, like whose book? Thaddeus, I can't remember his last name, wrote the book Don't Follow Your Heart. And just some of the work right now around like expressive individualism and kind of the outworkings that we're finding ourselves of the seeds that were planted 200 years ago, you know, in terms of...
Rob Chartrand (30:23.017)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sid Koop (30:34.083)
our heart being the center of understanding identity and truth, as opposed to understanding that our hearts are actually depraved and wicked, that there not needs to be an outside source that we trust that transforms us. I think that that whole kind of world viewed disposition is also huge. And then of course our platforms have created the space for that to be so rooted.
Rob Chartrand (30:37.641)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:47.881)
That's right. Yeah.
Sid Koop (31:00.738)
and experienced right now in a way that we haven't experienced before either. So there's a couple of things that are creating a perfect storm that just makes it a little bit more challenging to see the work. But thankfully, you and I both believe that we have a God who can do immeasurably more than we ask or imagine and has promised to build his church. So we're still good.
Rob Chartrand (31:07.401)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (31:22.537)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and yet it's the work is still upon us to create arguments at Demola strongholds, right? You know, and there's, yeah, that romantic era, the idea is that no, no external force is going to tell me who I am, it's all going to be, you know, found within self discovery. And yeah, this, this is what the kids are fighting with these days. And what's everybody's fighting with it, Sid? I mean, let's be honest, we're all we're all fighting with it.
Sid Koop (31:28.93)
Correct, right on.
Sid Koop (31:37.122)
That's correct.
Sid Koop (31:45.73)
All of us. I know. You're not wrong.
Rob Chartrand (31:48.745)
We're swimming in this sea. So I appreciate you saying like, like a lot of the discipleship practices, the essence of what it means to do ministry hasn't changed anything else where, you know, if I was to ask you what remains the same about young people today, what would you say?
Sid Koop (32:05.547)
Yeah, well my journey that, well it remains the same. Relationships matter so much. And just like authentically loving a kid is so powerful. So I'm coaching basketball right now here in the community. And I'm just reminded again that you give a kid attention, you care for them, you enjoy them, you know, that that is.
like just so powerful in the life of a young person. That just hasn't changed. So the need to do relational ministry, if that's what we want to call it, is still as important as it's ever been. It's harder, child protection policies and all that kind of stuff. But we can't quit on it, we've got to figure it out. So I think that has remained the same. I think creating space for kids to actually experience Jesus, you know, that's why camp continues to be so powerful, missions, trips, those sorts of things.
Rob Chartrand (32:36.169)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (32:59.657)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Sid Koop (33:02.021)
just actually creating space that's like, what's the word I want to use? It's outside of the norm normative rhythms. It's disruptive. It's, it's communal. It's really intentional, but that's really important and powerful in terms of seeing, you know, faith formation happen. You know, I think that's really key. And then a deep community, like for kids to be a part of a community where they actually,
experience Kingdom values at work, like the finding of it is so attractive. Like, it's, again, you know, it's funny here at camp right now, Rob, we have school groups coming in. And we just, you know, Jen is like a dog on a bone reminding our leaders of our virtues, not just our values, our virtues, like what does, what is the Kingdom way? How should we be seeking to serve others? How do we like care? How do we, all that kind of stuff.
and how school groups are going. Like we just haven't experienced this before. Like this is so powerful and different and odd. And you know, we're really careful with our school groups in terms of how we communicate obviously, but they're experiencing God's design for community and it is shaping. So those things haven't changed at all in my mind, Rob. Like those are still the necessary pieces.
for kids to experience Jesus and they still work when we can invite kids into those spaces. So that stuff hasn't changed.
Rob Chartrand (34:32.393)
Yeah. Well, if you could turn back time, if I could turn back time and talk to yourself, you know, in your first five years of ministry with what you know now, you know, if you could talk to yourself, your first five years of ministry self, what would you say? What advice would you give?
Sid Koop (34:36.965)
ha ha ha ha ha ha
Sid Koop (34:52.581)
Yeah, I would probably just say don't overestimate what you can do in one year and don't underestimate what you can do in five years. So I would say, I would not, I still would love the burn that that youth pastor had for ministry, how it consumed his mind 24 seven, he was invested, like that was worth it. But I would also encourage that youth pastor to think a little bit more about sustainability.
So how can, what you start, how can you carry it on and finish it? Think a little bit more about good systems and structures. So love the relationships, love the culture, that was all great, but if you're gonna lead a ministry, you also have to figure out some of the back end stuff. That again, allows you to not just start and stop things, but start things that have a journey that you can repeat on and you can pass on to other people and then.
The third thing I would say to them is build your team, like invest in your youth ministry team. I wouldn't trade the fact that most evenings after school, he was out hanging out with kids at Dairy Queen and going for bike rides and hiking up mountains. I wouldn't change the fact that on the weekends he was trying to figure out how to play together, you know, like all those things I'm super thankful for and I still reflect back on it fondly.
But I would look at some sustainability rhythms as well. I would say, hey, what are gonna be some of the healthy practices, both in terms of your own faith formation, like be committed to the word, be committed to some healthy community, and also like practical, do something active that's going to help your body be healthy and your mind be healthy and some of those life -giving practices as well. I think that's what I would reflect on mostly. The other thing I would say too,
Rob Chartrand (36:41.065)
Yeah, it's good. So good. Yeah.
Sid Koop (36:44.776)
is I would say to myself, I always say there's kind of two times in life when I knew everything. It was when I was about 13, I knew everything at 13. And I knew everything when I graduated from Bible college. And I would just say, okay, just listen a little more, ask a few more questions. No, don't change the world just yet. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (37:04.553)
Yeah, so good. I think I'd say to myself, you really need to consider investing in Microsoft and Apple stock. Or Google. Yeah.
Sid Koop (37:13.223)
dang. I would even say, you know, listen, in 9192, bet on the Blue Jays, they're gonna win it. That's gonna be great. Like, see that as a high risk investment and don't be dumb. Like, I'm, dude, my word. Hey, actually, you know what, Rob, let me just say this. I'm thinking about this a lot. And I don't know about you, like, I, financial management was not anywhere on my radar at all. I think it probably was more on yours. Certainly wasn't on mine.
Rob Chartrand (37:30.985)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (37:42.055)
And even though I can say with integrity we weren't making much money like Jen and I, Jen was a stay at home mom, we were rolling off one youth pastor's salary trying to just figure it out. Which was fine, God provided in awesome ways. I would probably start doing a little bit more financial management early on. I would have tried to get a little bit of education in that area and started a little sooner on just being wise, like a good steward. Give radically.
Rob Chartrand (38:08.873)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sid Koop (38:10.727)
You know, do all as we should, but I'd probably think, you know, I probably started some of that stuff 10 years later and I probably, I'm trying to push my kids to like think a little bit more about it. Don't be owned by it, but just be a little bit wiser with it. That's, you know, that's an interesting piece to throw out there at pastors and youth pastors getting going like, you know.
Rob Chartrand (38:29.865)
for sure, for sure. Especially if you're working in like a church or denomination that doesn't provide that for you, doesn't have the RSP plans, RASP plans, all of that. So yeah, you got to get on that early. We try to encourage it with our kids as well. Yeah. So how has your role in youth ministry changed over the years, Sid? And I'll frame it differently, because I know you're, functionally, your role has changed. Like you're in different organizations.
Sid Koop (38:36.04)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Sid Koop (38:43.336)
any practical life. Yeah.
Sid Koop (38:57.512)
Very much, yes. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (38:59.209)
right and whatnot. But I mean, you remember back in the day when you were like early 20s and you're a youth pastor and you were just like, you were just a few years older than your youth. Like you were like just a big brother basically, right. But now I mean, you're you're in your 50s. You're you're not really that anymore. You're not even an uncle, you're almost a grandpa to all these kids, right? So like, how have you seen your role changing like?
Sid Koop (39:21.096)
You're not wrong. You know what's funny? Yeah, so I'll tell you this. I think there was a distinct shift that happened in my role early on that was the biggest one. I'll just say this. I went from being the person who did the ministry to being a person who had a much higher focus on building teams to do ministry. So that's a big change. And then that one stayed with me. But it happened pretty early. So that was a big shift for me.
Rob Chartrand (39:35.337)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (39:41.129)
Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Sid Koop (39:49.834)
You know, there's lots of ways. The way I figured that out is I had one of my volunteers yelling at me in a parking lot saying, you don't know how to lead teams and you're not good at it. And I'm like, yes, I am really, I wasn't. Anyways, that's a funny story. And that true yelling, by the way, I thought we were going to fisticuffs over that. I tried to get them fired by the elders and the elders said, no, you got to work with them because that's the hardest and best thing for you to do, wild. I think, you know, going, getting older has actually benefited me in youth ministry in many ways.
Rob Chartrand (40:04.361)
Okay.
Sid Koop (40:16.969)
So I want to be careful how I say this, but there was a great gift to move away from being kind of the cool, hip, just a little bit older guy, just in the way that kids would relate to and stuff. There's some benefit to that, but there's lots of dangers that actually go with it that you got to be careful of and aware of that can actually hinder your ability to do good pastoral ministry. So I'm just aware of that. As I've gotten older, I think that like,
Rob Chartrand (40:29.961)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (40:38.409)
Mm -hmm.
Sid Koop (40:46.761)
I can, number one, there's so much more wisdom. So I see patterns and things so much differently than I did back then. Very thankful for that. My ministry with parents changed radically and my ministry with volunteers changed radically. So I think, you know, one of the things I would just say to youth workers now, paid youth workers, I'd say just know their seasons and be okay with that. And embrace the season where you are, steward it faithfully, but know that it'll change. So,
Rob Chartrand (40:57.833)
Right.
Sid Koop (41:15.627)
Your work with parents as a 23 to 25 year old is very different than your work with parents once you hit your mid 30s. Even once I started having, if you're called to marriage, if that's what God should call you to, even as soon as you're married changes it, as soon as you have kids changes it. And now that my boys are both through their adolescent years, very much changes it. And I think you have to learn to embrace those different seasons and be okay with them.
When I was in my mid -30s, I started realizing I couldn't do ministry the same way, like all the all -nighters and all that kind of stuff. That's why you actually raise up teams, so they can do those things. That's fantastic. But I thought I was having a ministry crisis, and a mentor said to me, you're crazy. He said, you need to grow up and understand you're not removed from youth ministry, but you're gonna have to do it differently, and that's actually a really good thing. And so, you know, I think that changed a lot for me as I got older.
Rob Chartrand (42:04.905)
Mm.
Rob Chartrand (42:10.281)
Hmm. Yeah. So, you know, speaking of guys yelling at you in the parking lot. Why don't you share with us some of your bigger youth ministry fail stories? You got any stories you want to tell us about when?
Sid Koop (42:18.538)
HA HA!
Sid Koop (42:30.442)
I don't really want to tell them, but I'll tell them to you. I mean, that story was interesting. That was like not too incriminating, but embarrassing. By the way, let me just say right off the top, I've only been blessed with incredibly healthy ministry environments. So my mistakes were so graciously dealt with that I'm blown away. Let me give you just a couple. Number one is the parking lot.
Rob Chartrand (42:34.761)
nothing incriminating nothing incriminating yeah
Sid Koop (42:55.308)
I started CAM where they were run by volunteers and I came in and thought I would take it over and I didn't know how to work with teams yet so I was trying to figure it out. So I started isolating those volunteers a little bit and just me with the kids and this leader was strong, a very strong leader. And in fact, in many ways he helped push me to the philosophy that drives our conferences now of helping encourage and equip ministry teams.
But we were yelling in the parking lot. He owned a construction company. He's like, you can't lead. You need to learn how to lead us. And I'm yelling at him. You don't know how to follow. I know how to lead. And then I went to his work site to fire him, like the next day. And I went on to his work site and I found him. I said, hey, I just need you to know I'm going to let you go. Like, he can't work in our ministry. He's like, you can't fire me. I'm a volunteer. You have to shepherd me. I was like, crap. I didn't see that coming. So then I went back to the elders and I said, hey, I think we've got to get rid of this guy. And they said, well, we'll pray about it for a month.
and they came back a month later and said, yeah, we've prayed about it. The hardest thing and best thing is for you two to work together. So yeah, he's staying in your ministry and you're gonna figure it out. So, and they gave me someone else to walk with me in it too, but huge gift. By the way, he's on my board right now for our organization.
Rob Chartrand (43:54.601)
like, get on that.
Rob Chartrand (44:03.113)
Wow. And you know what's amazing is he didn't quit because typical volunteer said, but it's like, you don't want me? Fine. I'm out of here. And he's like, no, you can't fire me.
Sid Koop (44:06.731)
No.
Sid Koop (44:11.307)
No. Rob, I think God called him. I have no doubt God called him as much as he called me. He called us together. It's wild. This is 25 years later. He's just been texting me, trying to get a hold of me, and I'm an idiot. I haven't been able to get back to him, but he's a dear friend, and he's a warrior. So he'll fight for me. I have him on my board, and he fights through prayer primarily. He used to fight differently. Now he fights through prayer, and so I'm thankful to have him. So there's that.
I made massive mistakes when I was in in Lethbridge Dude in year two, I think it was or year three. I made a $20 ,000 mistake on a conference and I had to go before the elders and explain my miss and and they listened and I turned some stuff over to volunteers and I didn't track with things and afterwards they came to me They said hey, we love being a ministry that tries things. Just let's learn from our mistakes. I
Rob Chartrand (44:49.269)
my.
Sid Koop (45:08.972)
Unless I do that again. It was unreal. And then...
Rob Chartrand (45:11.593)
$20 ,000? What did you buy?
Sid Koop (45:14.764)
Well, I didn't. So they put together a budget that thought we'd get 600 kids in the room. And of course, that's not going to happen on the first time you do something. You know what I mean? You had 60. Brought in a big band, all the stuff. It was terrible. yeah. So there's that one. And then I made another big dollar one probably about seven years later. And we blew our budget. We got caught up in a bunch of different things that...
Rob Chartrand (45:23.753)
Yeah. Yeah.
yeah.
Sid Koop (45:41.836)
Heads weren't in it all that kind of stuff. I wasn't managing details and I remember sitting Rob imagine this in our staff meeting there's probably about 20 of us around the table and Our senior pastor saying hey our youth ministry team has used up pretty much their whole budget in the first month of the ministry year so I'm gonna ask everyone to chop 5 % off their budget and Give it to the youth ministry so we can make it through the year and Rob Nobody bad
Rob Chartrand (46:02.825)
Wow.
Sid Koop (46:08.94)
Like now maybe there was a lot of behind the scenes conversations, but everyone was like, yep, okay. And I was like, imagine that. So it's changed the way I think about team and commitment to each other in ministry environments. But those are like, those aren't the fun stories we all wanna hear. We wanna hear the stories about burning the building down or something like that. But those are the real ones that get you fired, you know.
Rob Chartrand (46:18.313)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (46:32.361)
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Sid Koop (46:37.708)
Boy the Lord was gracious to me.
Rob Chartrand (46:39.145)
Yeah. Well, that whole financial management piece is a significant thing for a young leader to learn. Like, so just, I mean, just say really quick, Sid, I mean, in our, our new Christian ministry program, we've developed a new courses, we've been listening to ministry leaders and doing focus group studies from them. And you know, what are some things that young leaders need to know? One of them that came up repeatedly was budget. They're like, we never, we
Sid Koop (46:44.046)
I know.
Sid Koop (47:05.838)
Yes.
Rob Chartrand (47:07.785)
nobody ever sat down with us and told us we had a budget. We walked into a church ministry role and the very first day they said, here's your budget or put together a budget. And we're like, we have no idea what to do. How does that work? How does that, right? They never thought about it. They didn't take an accounting course or whatnot. So anyway, we've infused the new Christian ministry program with that aspect where we're going to teach them how to do budgets. Like it's just simple things, but yeah, you never learn, right? When I was in youth ministry, this was in 1990.
Sid Koop (47:18.126)
I know.
Sid Koop (47:27.278)
So thankful for that.
Sid Koop (47:32.014)
Dull, and it...
Rob Chartrand (47:35.977)
to when I became gone into youth ministry. I mean, you got to think like there's no computers back then. Like there's like, there's maybe a 286 out on the market somewhere and and and I didn't know anything about accounting. I'd never taken it but I knew I was given this large book this ledger book that you it was all by hand on and tracking how much was in the youth ministry bank account. I'm like, what is this voodoo? I don't know what this so I went to the pub.
Sid Koop (47:57.582)
Wild.
Rob Chartrand (48:05.289)
I went to the public library and I got a book on accounting and I read it. The only way I could figure it out how, you know, what does two lines under this number mean? And what does one line mean? Like it's bizarre, but I'm glad I did it, but nobody would, nobody could teach me. Like I, it's anyway, so budget it's.
Sid Koop (48:09.55)
Wild!
Sid Koop (48:23.887)
I'm so glad. Well, and here's the thing about it too, right, Rob? It's about trust. Those are the kind of things that matter. Lots of things matter in an organization. But if you can look after some of those things, you'll earn trust so quickly that will free you up to do the kind of ministry you want to continue to do. So, that's what you're doing, you're doing trust building in those spaces as well. And I think it's great to learn, I think we should learn. It's good life skills, way to go, I love that.
Rob Chartrand (48:43.881)
That's right.
Rob Chartrand (48:48.585)
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I mean, I'm not an accountant, but I'm it helped when there were no computers. There was no Excel file that I could look at, you know. So, Sid, how have you stayed in the game this long? This is the big question we want to know. I mean, you're an old youth guy. I'm sure there has been times in your life where you just like I'm done. I want to quit. Well, you've told us. Well, I guess the answer is Jen. I mean, that's the answer, right? We know it's she just.
Sid Koop (48:56.335)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Sid Koop (49:02.671)
Yeah.
Sid Koop (49:14.479)
You're not far off. You're not far off, dude. That's a big part of the answer. That's a big... Hey, let me just say this. You know, ladies, gentlemen, if you feel called into ministry, vocational ministry, just understand that the spouse... If you get married and God may call you to singleness, which is a beautiful calling, like you should see that as a holy calling, embrace it, like... And you'll get to do ministry differently than those who are married. If most will be married, just know that your spouse will play a...
very significant role in your ability to fulfill your calling and how you go about doing it. So think carefully about that. That's what I, you know Rob, I think I would say that on the front end, you know, for our leaders out there.
Rob Chartrand (49:55.241)
Yeah, I would say, you know, and be so bold is that I know some young men and women that stepped out of ministry because they married somebody who wasn't for it. You know, that's, you know, I wouldn't say they married the wrong person, but they married somebody who wasn't for it. And so, you know, you're going to think about it. Yeah.
Sid Koop (50:03.505)
True. Yeah. Yeah. And you will. Yeah. And that's okay. Then you'll have to go do that. Yeah. And you'll, and I will say to you, yes, step out of ministry and serve your spouse and your family the way God's asking you to do it and be okay with that. He'll redeem that. It's going to be fine, but just know it will change the spaces that you get to fulfill your calling. There's no doubt about it. So I think there's that. I'll say that right out.
I think for me, reminding myself over and over again what was at stake was really important. I needed to remind myself about that. Number two, I think I needed to grow my relationship with Jesus because I needed to remember how valuable he is or was and so that that would burn in me to continue to find ways to pass that on to others. I did practical things. I wanted to look after my health, my physical health was actually more important than people give a credit.
I'm not saying everyone should go lift weights and run, but I'm saying get outside, be active, be healthy. It changes your mind. Walk, yeah please walk, honestly. And do it as an act of stewardship for your mind. And we do ministry with our minds are central to our ministry. So, steward your minds really well. And then the other reason I stayed in a rob is because I have absolutely zero practical skills that could put food on the table for my family.
Rob Chartrand (51:03.369)
Yeah. Walk at least. Yeah.
Sid Koop (51:25.906)
Anyway, I am useless. I had to come to grips with the fact that I was essentially useless to society outside of ministry. I was like, I don't have any other options, man. This is what I'm doing. And I joke about that, but it's actually not that far off. I just felt like, okay, this is the space I'm in. Here's the one thing I, you know, I do think, I think we have to wrestle with calling Rob. And, and I know that sometimes it's a little bit subjective and ethereal, if you will, but.
Rob Chartrand (51:48.617)
Mm -hmm.
Sid Koop (51:54.001)
But we have to wrestle with calling because there's gonna be plenty of seasons when it's really hard. So I would say two things on that one. Number one, like spend some time really working through God's call on your life and be good with that. You don't go, yeah, I believe Jesus, you've called me to this, okay, good, I'm good. You have authority in my life over what I do. So make sure you have that authority, give that to him. So wrestle with calling. And then the second one, honestly,
Rob Chartrand (52:13.865)
Mm -hmm.
Sid Koop (52:20.945)
wrestle with the reality that we are aliens and strangers here and our life in this space is temporary. Eternity is coming. So, you know, one of the things that Paul said to the church in Colossae is he essentially said because of your vision of eternity and your hope in heaven, you are able to love others well here. So whatever you are sacrificing here is nothing compared to what you know is coming when heaven comes. So you sacrifice more now.
And I really think that that vision of eternity is helpful to stay in it in the here and now as well, because it just reminds us that this is temporary space. So there's a real cost to it. But in light of eternity, it's not it's okay. And Paul would say that if there was an eternity, we're super we're just fools. Because for Paul, like his ministry call and costume like everything like it was is crazy. So.
Rob Chartrand (52:58.953)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (53:05.929)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sid Koop (53:17.171)
He had to know there was a greater reward coming. You know, there's a number of passages, Rob, that I'm reading like in 1 Peter and other spaces that so clearly say that the reward of heaven should be a wonderful motivator for sacrificially living now. Hebrews speaks about that, you know, Christ for the reward that was before him, hindered the cross. And so I do think we should stoke our fires, stoke the fires of passion for ministry by reminding ourselves of the reward of eternity.
And that should be a driver.
Rob Chartrand (53:48.329)
Yeah, well, it's so hard to do that when we've kind of flattened the vertical frame in our thinking and all that we have is just this world now. And we've got to live, we've got one life to live and we've got to, you know, live it to the full without consideration that no, this is just a piece of a very large, large portion of life. Yeah. Yeah, I got to tell you, like when I...
Sid Koop (53:50.834)
Oof.
Sid Koop (53:58.898)
yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Sid Koop (54:06.706)
Yes.
Sid Koop (54:11.122)
You're not wrong.
Rob Chartrand (54:14.409)
That was the decider for me to surrender my life to Christ is way back in the day when I was in high school and I had to wait eternity basically. And I said, my life, people can't see this, but I mean, if I was to do a little, my life is this tiny little chicklet in my think between my fingers here.
That's my life now, but eternity is, if I spread my arms from end to end, is this. And what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet forfeit his soul? What can a man give in exchange for his soul? And so for me, that weight, that weight, that weight eventually pressed on me and says, yeah, I'd be an idiot not to do this. And then I did, right? So, Sid, so glad that you're here.
Sid Koop (54:44.146)
Holy.
Sid Koop (54:53.682)
Absolutely.
Sid Koop (55:02.804)
I love it. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (55:09.609)
Our time is almost gone. I wondered if you would end by giving a final word of encouragement to our listeners who are out there in ministry, in the ditches. I mean, what you just shared was gold, but I mean, anything else you want to share as a final word of encouragement?
Sid Koop (55:17.396)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sid Koop (55:25.78)
Yeah, you know, I just think, Rob, that I would kind of reiterate that the other thing I would say is know that you're part of a community of people that are together in this. You're not alone. You'll feel alone, but you're actually not. And I would encourage people in ministry that to make sure you're finding a community of people that I want her to author say, bleed the Bible. You're just committed. They're in.
Rob Chartrand (55:53.481)
Hmm. Hmm.
Sid Koop (55:55.7)
Believe the Bible, so we're gonna wrestle there. Find that community, find that community that is joyfully willing to lay their life down for Jesus in the work that they're called to do. Be in that, find that community that's gonna continue to press, help you press on and strive and strain. That's gonna be with you in that, find that community. I think that's really important. And you know, one thing about Paul, you know, I'm reading the epistles a lot these days, is he just was.
He just didn't want to do this thing alone and he kept wanting to encourage people by sending people, Timothy, and Pafford, all that kind of stuff. So we shouldn't do this alone. And I would say find those people that are gonna have, not the people, someone once said to me, Sid, find people who love you but are not impressed by you. And I think those people are really important. And then remember that, ooh.
We're going through Flippin's right now and he says, what does he say? Live a life worthy of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I just think like there's lots of elements that, ways to live that show the worth of the gospel to us. Like we sacrifice for unity, we sacrifice for being on mission together because of the value of the gospel. Those actions show the worth of the gospel. So I think we should do that. But the other part of that is we should, our integrity is what?
allows us to be in the space that we're in. And so fight to guard that. Like, just fight to guard it. And there's so many opportunities for us to compromise there. But whatever we have to sacrifice to guard integrity in our relationship with Jesus and others is so worth it. And so keep fighting. Keep fighting for that. Because there's much at stake. And it's a privilege.
Rob Chartrand (57:24.777)
Mm -hmm.
Sid Koop (57:47.796)
to be involved in this work that we're in. Then the final one I would say, because I want to try to fight cynicism that comes from hurt within the church, I went through one situation that wasn't pleasant. And I remember my mentor once said to me, he said, hey Sid, you believe that we're all sinners, right? And I'm like, yeah. He goes, well then why are you so surprised when we act like it? I said, shoot. And he just said, don't get cynical. Cynicism isn't helpful. And keep leaning in. Don't quit.
Rob Chartrand (58:13.257)
Mm -hmm.
Sid Koop (58:17.399)
don't quit on the church and don't quit on the ministry and hang in there. And I thought, okay, I need to steel myself a little bit in that. There's lots of reasons that we'll move on from church work and vocational ministry, lots of good reasons, some of us should, but make sure they're the right reasons that we do it for.
Rob Chartrand (58:24.329)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (58:32.809)
Yeah, yeah, good word. Yeah. Yeah, Jesus isn't surprised by imposters. Jesus isn't surprised by sinners. Jesus isn't surprised by wolves because he told us they're coming. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So good, Sid. Thanks so much for your time. Bless you as you lean into camp this week and you start training some workers and meet with your team there. Stoked.
Sid Koop (58:38.262)
Stop.
Sid Koop (58:42.586)
They're coming man, yep. Yeah, it's so good.
Alright bro.
Sid Koop (58:54.934)
Thank you.
Rob Chartrand (58:58.569)
to be involved with you and the youth worker community coming up in the fall when you guys start rolling out all these new conferences.
Sid Koop (59:02.198)
Yeah, well we sure appreciate you Rob and you've heard me say many many times how thankful I am for the history of your work and specifically the work you're doing right now. Briar Crest thank you so much for that and I just think the Lord's blessing it so it's good to be shoulder to shoulder Rob and this stuff and appreciate you man. Appreciate you. Cool.
Rob Chartrand (59:22.505)
Yep. All right. Well, maybe we'll get you on here for a third time someday down the road.
Sid Koop (59:26.774)
Whoa trifecta! I like it! Thanks Bob.
Rob Chartrand (59:29.961)
Yes, sir. All right. God bless.