Rob Chartrand (00:02.554)
Brad Moffat, he's the lead pastor of McKinsey Town Church in Calgary, Alberta. Here on the Church in the North podcast, Brad, welcome to Church in the North.
Brad Moffatt (00:11.982)
Hey, this is a privilege to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Rob Chartrand (00:16.474)
Well, hey, we want to talk about your church, but before we do that, I want to start with a little bit about you, your backstory, your calling. I wonder if you could just talk to us real quick about some of the key moments that led you into ministry.
Brad Moffatt (00:29.679)
Yeah, I've been a pastor for 24 years, give or take, and I never thought that I would be in this position. I didn't desire it in any way, shape or form. I grew up in a really big church out east, and when I looked at the pastoral staff there, they were fairly academic, super smart guys, all the way from the senior pastor to the youth guide.
Rob Chartrand (00:35.962)
Wow, okay.
Brad Moffatt (00:57.743)
They were just not like me and I never saw myself being like that at all. So I just didn't, I couldn't, I had a heart for Jesus. It wasn't that important at the time, but circumstances led me to the place where I went to a Bible college in Saskatchewan and just wanted to play basketball. That's why I was there. And so, and it was there.
that I started to see men in particular that loved the things that I loved. They loved people, they loved sport, they loved just interacting and they were normal. And yeah, they were smart, but they saw some leadership qualities in me that I never saw in myself. And there were some key individuals there that really took me under their wing and it was amazing. And I never thought ministry was something that I was...
I was going to do, but I saw that there's something that they wouldn't still in me. I think my parents obviously did that too. And then so after my year three, my basketball, I was really enjoying it. I was enjoying just understanding what faith was to me, but I didn't know what the future had held. I just kind of took classes for the sake of taking classes. And so I went back home for a year and just trying to navigate what that looked like. And
I was working at a very good job. I was customer service. I knew I loved people. I loved making people happy. I'm a people pleaser by nature, which is terrible, but I think a lot of us are. And I was doing that and I was really leaning into my faith. I was going through a study, the Black Beast study experiencing God and with a group of guys that were all in the same place and we...
We were just navigating that. And I remember there was a time in like a February of that year where I was doing my job. I was meeting with clients for this organization and I was the representative of the company. And so I was just 21 years old, just trying to do what I'm doing. And I drive all day long going to different clients and there's this CD. Some of you remember what CDs are. My younger staff are like, what? My kids are like, what?
Rob Chartrand (03:19.482)
Yeah, I remember. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (03:23.665)
And it was called City on a Hill. There's this band called Third Day. And there's this song that came playing on that CD. And every time that song played, I would just get emotional. I'm not sure why. And it was just this gut feeling of, it almost is like God said, I feel like there's something different that I want you to go into. I didn't know what that meant. And so I...
I don't know, I talked to some mentors of mine and I'm like, what does that feel like? And they're like, well, why don't you just finish off your degree and see what that leads? And so I went back to the school in Saskatchewan, Briar Crest, loved that place. And that's where God instilled in me, maybe you should go into ministry. And so that's kind of the process. And in that process, I would say it was really not.
Rob Chartrand (04:15.386)
Wow, yeah, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (04:20.113)
I think God speaks to us the same way throughout our lifetime. I don't know if that's true or not, but for me, he gave me that kind of that little prompting and he had some men in my life, some women in my life that would confirm that. They would look at scripture and say, yeah, I see that in you. And then, yeah, so I graduated. My wife and I, we were dated, we got married and then...
I had this degree that I didn't know what to do with and I'm like, I don't know what to do. And so one of the men that I really highly admired, he was president of the school that he just retired and he went to go be a pastor in a city. And so he's like, Brad, do you wanna be my youth guy? I'm like, I'll do anything for you, whatever you want. I don't know what it looks like to be a pastor. When you go to...
undergrad, when you go to Bible college, there's there's pastoral courses. And there's, there's so many different courses you could take. I didn't take any of those. I had no idea. But he's he's like, come, come be my youth pastor. And that's kind of how it started. And I started to just see this the joy of working in a local church and the joy of having the privilege of walking alongside people in great times and in hard times, discipling, not having a clue what I'm doing and 24 years in.
I still don't have a clue what I'm doing. And it is just, yeah, there's been ups and downs, but that's been kind of the call that God's led me on into ministry. So.
Rob Chartrand (05:54.394)
Yeah, well, it's amazing to hear how God formed you through the influence of other men or other leaders in your life who spoke into you. And I think let's put a pin in that because I think that's going to come into our conversation a little bit later when we talk about multiplication. So let's fast forward. How did you end up at Mackenzie Town Church then?
Brad Moffatt (06:09.682)
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Brad Moffatt (06:16.883)
Yeah, I was a youth pastor for seven years. I have a desire to hang out with young people. That's kind of how I'm wired. And I really enjoyed that. But after about six, seven years, I just felt this uneasiness. The church I was at was great. It was very conservative. And it almost seemed like God wanted me into something different. And I didn't know what that looked like.
Rob Chartrand (06:23.576)
Mm -hmm.
Brad Moffatt (06:45.043)
I still loved the church, loved the people, loved what I was doing, but there was an uneasiness of just, yeah, and there was success when you look at it from a ministry standpoint. But I just, so my wife and I were just praying, what does that look like? And we were at a conference, a pastor's conference that this guy, we got to know and he's like, hey, I'm looking for a pastor to join us. Do you want to be that guy? I'm like, no.
Because he said I want to I want you as a youth pastor and I'm like, you know I like I love youth ministry, but I just feel I wouldn't mind doing something different So so he later called me two months later. He's like why you just come on staff? The interesting thing is we had family in Calgary. So we were in Regina at the time that we had family in Calgary and so to two years prior I was I was Visiting a friend of mine from from college and he lived in Mackenzie town
And it was a brand new community. And I remember saying, like driving into communities, this is two years prior. I remember saying like, if God ever wants to call me to Calgary, this would be a really cool place to surf. And so I didn't connect the dots until I actually went to go visit when, you know, the candidating process you go through. And I'm like, oh, I remember driving into the neighborhood going, this is...
Rob Chartrand (08:04.57)
Yeah, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (08:10.58)
This is the place a couple years ago that I said, yeah, this would be a cool place to serve. And so that's how God called us here. And so I was like, it was at the time about a seven year old church plant and they had a senior pastor and then a worship guy. And so I was the third staff member. They had a children's person as well. And I just wanted, he didn't wanted me to do whatever he didn't want it to.
for lack of a better term. So I did that. Exactly, you know, like, and so it exactly is how I learned and I did I did small groups and I coached the youth pastor a little bit because I'm just coming out of that. I worked with the community because he was very gifted in ministration. And but he wasn't amazing with people. And I'm okay with people. And so it was a really good fit.
Rob Chartrand (08:42.298)
That's what assistant or associate pastors do, man. That's how you learn.
Brad Moffatt (09:09.781)
And, and so after about four years, he tapped me on the shoulder and he's like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to another job. Do you want to the elders board said, do you want to be the lead guy? Now remember, I don't, I, I didn't subscribe to be a pastor in any way, shape or form. So preaching would be something that you're like, you're kidding me, right? Like my friends that, that know that I'm a lead guy now, they just laugh because they would, they were like, there's no way.
Rob Chartrand (09:22.586)
Okay, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (09:39.733)
There's no way you'd ever, Brad would never be like that. But again, God has a sense of humor and I think if you're willing and you're open. And so we just said, okay, we'll try. Like you guys know that this isn't, I don't think that's my gifting. I think I'm a good leader. I think I'm really, I'm okay with people, but like speaking every Sunday or 40 Sundays. And so we just went into it and the church is incredibly gracious.
And so that's where we find ourselves. And it's interesting, we can go back to just men, just people pouring into your life. The degree that I had in Bible college, so let's go back 10 years prior. I didn't have to take any preaching courses in any way, like that's not, that wasn't my degree. It was a degree called sports ministry. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still think it's the greatest degree because what it was, it was, is,
Rob Chartrand (10:26.33)
Did you do like the biblical studies degree or?
Rob Chartrand (10:32.282)
Oh, that one, yes.
Brad Moffatt (10:39.19)
you're taking the love of Jesus and the love of the local church and you're using sport as a platform. And so that I still love sport. It's March, it's March right now. I don't know when the podcast is coming out, but it's March Madness. And so it's like my favorite time of the year. And so that was my degree and that preaching wasn't part of it. But the guy that was in charge of that degree, he became a friend, but in my third year, I think,
Rob Chartrand (10:44.378)
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (10:53.21)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (11:07.978)
He said, Brad, I want you to take a preaching course. And I argued with him. I'm like, there's no way. Like I don't need it for my degree. You don't. And I put my foot down and he's like, no, I'm the boss. I can do what I feel like God is going to use this at some point in your life. And so I had to take a preaching course with an amazing, an amazing preaching mentor. Preston Bush is his name. And he taught me and I fumbled through it. And
Rob Chartrand (11:15.642)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (11:27.514)
That's great.
Brad Moffatt (11:37.783)
It was probably embarrassing for him, but fast forward 10 years, God just said, yeah, I want you to start doing that. And so that's what I've been doing. That's one of my main responsibilities here at the church. And yeah, and the church is continually gracious. So.
Rob Chartrand (11:52.538)
So just.
during those four years when you were the assistant or associate whatever your title was did you have opportunities to preach then?
Brad Moffatt (12:02.743)
Yeah, like he was getting tired. I think he was a church planter at heart and church planting is hard and there's a lot of heavy lifting and I think he was just getting tired. So we would sit down and I would probably preach once every four or five weeks. And it's a lot easier. It's a different responsibility when you have five weeks to prepare and five weeks and...
Rob Chartrand (12:09.434)
cup.
Rob Chartrand (12:18.554)
Okay, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (12:27.162)
Right, exactly. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (12:30.007)
And so that's, I would get into the rhythm of that. But then, and then once I became the lead guy, it was my main, one of my main responsibilities. And so that's just different. And so the church allowed me to learn on the fly and allowed me to, you know, make mistakes and go too long or, I don't think you're ever too short, but a lot of the time I just think when I'm preaching,
Rob Chartrand (12:33.592)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (12:39.706)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (12:55.834)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (12:59.639)
it's, I'm learning the text myself, like I, it's exciting when I'm just trying to figure this thing out myself and, and I get to communicate it as I'm learning it. Now, of course, I've learned it before, but just, I'm not that I'm not that guy that, that knows everything. I, I'm reading that week or that that month, I'm reading the Greek words to try to understand like, what does this mean? And I'm,
And it's been, the church has been so good that way. And so now, now, yeah, they, they let me be myself, which is, which is really nice. So yeah, I love it.
Rob Chartrand (13:34.234)
Yeah, great. Well, I want to talk about your church building. First of all, I mean, it's it's got a really unique design and location. If anyone wants to go to your website, you'll see the picture of the church building from the front. And it looks like it's it looks like it's something from the deep south. It looks like it's got like Corinthian columns, this beautiful white building in this amazing community. Talk to us about that. Like, why is the building designed like this?
Brad Moffatt (13:48.984)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (14:03.77)
that.
Brad Moffatt (14:04.876)
Yeah, it's a it's an interesting building. It's the first thing you see when you when you go into Mackenzie town. For your listeners, Mackenzie town is a neighborhood in Calgary that has about 25 ,000 people in it. But it's created to be a small town within a big city. And so the developers of Mackenzie town, they wanted it to feel like a New England town. And so the very first homes that were built have porches on the front and
Rob Chartrand (14:32.728)
Mm -hmm.
Brad Moffatt (14:32.857)
And they designed, we have this main street that's like a small town main street. And it's just picturesque. There's a gazebo that weddings are held there. It's just this gorgeous little town in the big city of Calgary. And so back 22 years ago or 23 years ago, there was about 15 people that were between the ages of 50 and 70. And they were,
part of a church in the Northeast of Calgary here and they said, this new neighborhood of McKinsey town, they need a church. And so this group of like 15 seniors, I would call them, I'm getting up there my age and they would say like, we need to plant this church, but they didn't have a pastor, they had no plans whatsoever at all. No, not even a building, nothing. So, Deerfoot is the main road in Calgary, at North South, it's the main road.
Rob Chartrand (15:18.778)
Just the building. Just land. Okay. Okay.
Brad Moffatt (15:28.441)
And McKinsey town is right off of it in the South end. And at the time it was the, it was the last community of the South and the community of the city. So they went to the developer and they're like, Hey, can we buy a piece of land? And the developer said, yes, like we would love, we designed this to be this really small town community in Calgary and we need a church. And so they gave, essentially gave this group of people the land.
And it's the first thing you see in the community. Like you come in and it's like this little traffic circle and the church is there now. But they said, you can have the land for very, very small amount of money, but you need to build this church. And it was a picture of a church that was based out of New England. And they said, we don't care what it looks like on the inside, but you have to build this exact church. And so when you see the
Rob Chartrand (16:00.122)
Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (16:24.698)
Okay, yeah, so they gave the specifications for the look and the size and all of that. Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (16:29.452)
Yeah, yeah, there's no options. It was, if you want this option, this is the church. So yeah, so when you see the church, it's because the developers said, we want the neighborhood of McKenzie town to look like this New England community. And in order for our neighborhood to look like New England, the church needs to look like that. So yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (16:51.514)
Okay. So, so Calgary is interesting in that sense. Like they've got all these little communities and they're all looking a little bit different. Like it's, so if you talk about Calgary, you got to talk about a region in Calgary. And I mean, Edmonton's like that and it's Edmonton's got its own like Twilliger town that's similar to McKenzie, right? They're kind of the same design. Yeah. So, but McKenzie is like this walkable community. Yeah. Porches in the front, garages in the back. So they're trying to build this sense of, well,
Brad Moffatt (17:08.281)
Yep. Yep.
Rob Chartrand (17:19.256)
of connection and connectedness, right? So, but tell me what's Mackenzie Town like? Like what kind of people live in Mackenzie Town, you know, in terms of demographics?
Brad Moffatt (17:28.539)
the best, the best people in Calgary, in my opinion. It is, in McKinsey town is just, it's full of young families. We are the suburbs, so full of young families. And that is progressed when I first got here 17 years ago, our children's ministry, we only had at the time, the size of the church was about 100, 150. And if you know the church world, typically with,
Rob Chartrand (17:41.466)
Okay, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (17:57.371)
It's like one to three, I think. And so we typically would have 30 kids. Well, we would have a hundred adults and a hundred kids. Um, and, uh, because there's families and, and so that's what our neighborhoods like. We, uh, it's, it's obviously grown up. And so now we're seeing the progression now, now is the kids are moving out. Um, uh, now, now young families are moving back in. And so we're very, yeah, the kind of second wave.
Rob Chartrand (18:23.514)
Okay, the second second rush. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (18:27.131)
And so we're seeing as a community, it's a lot of young families, but it's unique in that there's a large number of seniors buildings. And so we have young families and then seniors and not a lot of high density. That's a lot of single family homes. One of the unique elements of McKinsey Town is that,
We have the highest per capita in the city of single parents. And so I don't think from what I understand, there's more divorces here than anywhere else, but housing is super expensive anywhere in Canada. But McKinsey town is just, it's a little more affordable if you want a nice neighborhood, a safe neighborhood.
Rob Chartrand (18:59.994)
Oh wow.
Brad Moffatt (19:23.32)
McKinsey town is probably the quintessential place to move. And so a lot of single parents move into the neighborhood. So yeah, so that, that so very family centered, very, very eclectic mix of people. But yeah, and from a economic standpoint, there's a lot of middle management. So Calgary is a white collar city oil, we live and die by oil. And, and so McKinsey town and the area would be
middle managers, you would see a lot of engineers, a lot of just men and women who are kind of, they've been in business for about 10 years, 10, 15 years, they've bought a house and they're moving up the corporate ladder as it were. So, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (20:12.218)
Yeah, yeah. So I have to imagine that your building by design is creating some interesting challenges. I mean, you said that you've got this disproportionately large number of children who are part of your church because of young families. But the building actually creates difficulties, I guess, for you guys when it terms of in terms of mission. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Brad Moffatt (20:39.645)
Yeah, the building is a gift. It's amazing, especially if you are a church planter to have a building as a gift. But it has been a struggle for us for many years because when the children's ministry was so big, it's not as big now, still thriving, but the children's ministry space is small. Because remember, it was designed and it was designed and built by a group of people that...
Rob Chartrand (21:00.57)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (21:08.477)
were 50 to 70 that didn't really see children's ministry as not they thought it was important, but they all they also didn't see the importance of it. They knew it was important. But they were they were guessing that you know, we only need three rooms and in those three rooms, you could fit maybe 10 kids in them. Well, so the main space we have in our children's ministry is is is actually meant to be the balcony of the sanctuary because when a building like this, they were thinking only sanctuary, that's it.
Rob Chartrand (21:33.752)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (21:38.044)
and the sanctuary main level can fit about 220 people. And then they're like, well, if we need more people, we can just tear down that wall and have a balcony. Well, that's caused a lot of problems because our children's ministry space is packed. Every Sunday it's packed. And so we've had to adjust because...
Rob Chartrand (21:38.298)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (22:05.18)
couple of years ago, like about eight years ago, we had to add multiple services, not for the adults in the sanctuary, but for the children because we couldn't fit the children. And we don't have any space for like to add, you know, add onto the building or, or adding like a cubicle, like an extra, extra at co -trailer in the back. We can't do that. And so that causes issues when there's children's ministry.
Rob Chartrand (22:12.73)
Great. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (22:34.46)
But it also causes issues when it comes to like adult ministry because there's not a lot of gathering spaces other than the sanctuary. So.
Rob Chartrand (22:45.946)
Okay, so like for mid -sized groups or teaching workshops and things like that.
Brad Moffatt (22:49.468)
Yeah, yeah. So we don't have a room that we could fit more than 40 people in other than the sanctuary. So that causes a little bit of issues because if we want to train a large group of people, we have to use the sanctuary, which is fine. But you know, you know, when you've been in a space where it's too big and you only have a certain amount of people, you need that mass. We
Rob Chartrand (22:53.882)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (23:11.354)
Yeah, you can't create a critical mass if it's too much space, too few people. Yeah, it's really hard. We face that chapter, that challenge here in Hildebrandt, because the chapel is so huge, right? And then if the student body is only occupying one third of the space, it feels like dead space for sure. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (23:15.548)
No, no, so, so.
Brad Moffatt (23:24.188)
Right?
Brad Moffatt (23:30.588)
Yeah, and there's still a lot of students, let's say 300, 400 students, but in a room full of 1 ,500 seats, yeah, it seems empty, right? Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (23:34.554)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (23:38.426)
Yeah, you get lost. So building additional children's wings and whatnot, that's not an option for you guys.
Brad Moffatt (23:45.596)
No, it's not an option that when a new community is built in the city here, you have 20, 25 years where the developer has architectural control. So you, you can't just say, I'm going to paint my house purple because I like purple. You can't do that because it's against the bylaws of the community. And so in our community for the first 25 years, the developer has control on what we can do and what we can't do. The developer was amazing and they were a gift to us, but.
Um, for us to add onto the sides, it was a, uh, non -negotiable because they wanted that idea of what that New England town looks like. Um, we've since passed that, um, but we don't have any space, um, on the sides to do that. There's not. Yeah. So, uh, as it was created, we don't have enough parking, uh, and then we would have to have some thing grandfathered into the building. So our building is a hundred.
Rob Chartrand (24:30.746)
you'd kill parking to do that, right?
Brad Moffatt (24:45.18)
I want to say a hundred feet smaller than what it needs to be because if we were to build one more hundred feet to the building, we would have to add certain things to the building like sprinkler systems. And so if we were to add anything, it would just, just, I don't think it would be worth it. So, and we, and we're not able to, anyways, there's not enough space to do that.
Rob Chartrand (25:04.026)
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, I think, I think you're, you're this conversation. I love it because we're, we're talking here about the, the intersection of geography and mission or the intersection of, you know, space and mission, right. And, and they, there is an interplay and you can't ignore it. Um, you know, we, we, I know with cross point the, the last years I've previously planted, we had a similar situation. We had this really large auditorium, like we were, we were gifted this building in 2018 and, uh, we're so thankful for our denomination for.
contributing it to us and for the people who built it and you know the legacy believers who continued the journey with us when Crosspoint inherited it. But the auditorium was like 350 -400 people but the children's space was like for 50 kids and then it's maxing out and these tiny little classrooms in the basement. So we had disproportionately large auditorium, super small parking, super small kids space. And so for us, we had the multiply services.
Because there's that 80 % threshold, you know, it's this psychological barrier that once your space is 80 % full, then you got to multiply or you don't grow. And we weren't reaching 80 % in our auditorium. Like we still had lots of space. But the kids' space in the parking, I mean, we had parking lined up the streets. And so we finally said, well, we've just got to, we've got, like, we're taking up neighborhoods because we're in like a neighborhood with like avenues and streets. Like we're taking up people's parking spots and whatnot. We're like, we've got to...
Brad Moffatt (26:16.252)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (26:35.738)
we've got to multiply. And we did, and that was great. But it was the kids space that was the real challenge because like you guys, we had so many young families, right? So.
Brad Moffatt (26:45.852)
Yeah, and you want to be like, you want to minister to the people that live by the building. And there's nothing worse than on a Sunday morning, them being frustrated because there's cars in front of their house for hours on end, right? You want to have a great reputation. And so yeah, it's a struggle.
Rob Chartrand (26:53.24)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (27:00.762)
That's right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (27:04.954)
Yeah. So I mean, what it pushes us towards if if mission is more important than building, right, if mission is more important than space, then it forces us into this new innovation. Right. So you guys obviously had to start thinking about innovation, right, and this intersection. So what did that look like for you in terms of multiplication?
Brad Moffatt (27:11.964)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (27:19.036)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (27:24.828)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, like what there's a there's a I heard at some point some speakers saying like your biggest problem could be your greatest opportunity. And for us, our biggest problem was space and children's ministry space and, and we were growing. And so we're like, what, what do we do? So we, if you come to Calgary, there's an amazing church, just a stone's throw away from us. First Alliance, massive church.
Rob Chartrand (27:39.608)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (27:57.53)
Yes, huge. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (27:58.684)
Right. And so we're looking at that and, and, and I, I've strongly believed in kingdom vision, strongly believe in hearing on local communities and, and, and so first Alliance, they're going to reach a different kind of person than we are going to reach. And so we don't want to be a church that has a four or five, six different services, because if you really wanted to go to a much larger church, you could go to first lines and I would encourage you to go there.
Um, so we have this really unique, uh, opportunity at McKinsey town because you can only fit, like, like I said, two, 220 people in the sanctuary. Um, and so it feels small. Now for some of your listeners, that might be really big, but, um, for in, in a metropolitan city like Calgary, right. It's like two, uh, sanctuary, uh, a church of 200 is, is a good size, but.
Rob Chartrand (28:49.05)
Copy. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (28:56.188)
It seems, it still seems homey. It still seems like a community. The opportunity we have is that we have, well, right now we have three services. And so everybody feels like it's a small community, but we have the resources of a church of 800 to a thousand people. And so what a great opportunity that is for us to be able to throw the resources into discipleship, into staffing, into whatever we want to do. But yet it still feels like a small community. And so.
As we're looking at the problems that we have, we're like, we don't want to have three, four services. That's not kind of the field that we want. And so that's where multiplication comes in. We've been a blessing to McKinsey town by being planted here. And about 10 years ago, we started thinking about like, how can we continue to be a blessing in the city? And so we have a multiplication mindset. And so that's kind of the direction that.
that we have gone and that we will continue to go.
Rob Chartrand (29:57.434)
Yeah. So the option is of, um, Hey, let's just build a building somewhere further out. Uh, that's not even on the radar, right?
Brad Moffatt (30:04.092)
Yeah, right. Yeah, like we might if we were to ever build a building out, go closer to downtown because too often I think churches are they like to go to the suburbs, because that's where maybe land is. But I think the downtown cores are starting to miss that gospel presence. And I'd love to do that. But yeah, we can't we're called McKinsey town church, you can't just be like, hey, timeout, we're just going to go to Okotoks, which is south of the city.
Rob Chartrand (30:18.106)
Yes, yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (30:32.666)
You're right.
Brad Moffatt (30:33.754)
Mackenzie Town Okotoks, like we can't do that. And we're called here. Like when we look at the story of the development of Mackenzie Town, you always need to go back to your calling. Like why did you, like that's why I think when you read scripture and it says, remember your baptism, it's really important to always go back to like, why do you do what you do? Like Rob, you probably felt many times when you're super frustrated or you're tired and you ask yourself, like, why am I doing this? Like why?
Why am I even doing this? You always need to go back to when God tapped you on the shoulder, when you just had that feeling of like, this is what I'm created for. Like I'm created to be a minister of the gospel. I'm created to preach his word. I'm created to plant churches, whatever that is. And so we always went back to like, why did God place Mackenzie Town here? And we need to be a gospel centered presence in this community. And so why would...
Why would we, we love the people of McKinsey Town so much, why would we say, hey, it's about the building, we're gonna move somewhere else. It's not about the building. The building is a tool that God uses, but it's about the opportunity for us to just to be an incredible blessing to our community, to be able to lovingly share Jesus for years. And so now we would never move our building. We would always, we would stay here.
and then look for other opportunities within the city.
Rob Chartrand (32:01.69)
Yeah. Well, you talk about multiplication. What has that looked like? What does that look like for you guys as you're you and your elders and, you know, members of your team are praying together? What's what's on your radar?
Brad Moffatt (32:14.716)
Yeah, yeah. So we're, we, yeah, I think about 10 years ago, we decided we want to be a church that multiplies. I think healthy things multiply. I always thought it would be really cool thing to, to be part of that entrepreneurial spirit of starting something new. I didn't realize how hard it would be, but you know, I just, when I, when I see like the Rob Chartrands of this world and you make it look so easy, right?
just to go and do whatever, right? Exactly, exactly. So we were like, let's be a multiplying church. And so 10 years ago, that was our desire. Let's start doing that. And even today now, we're in the process of, we've hired some staff and we're putting together plans to multiply our ministry. We're gonna start here on site.
Rob Chartrand (32:45.022)
Smoke and mirrors, brother. Smoke and mirrors.
Brad Moffatt (33:13.254)
We're going to do that on a Sunday night and it's going to be a different different feel. It's going to be a different vibe. And with
Rob Chartrand (33:20.218)
So do you mean like a new service, like a worship gathering? Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (33:22.748)
Yeah, we're not, we'll call it a campus or a site because we want to reach maybe different people. God hasn't, we're looking for opportunities within the city to go and create another environment, but that hasn't happened yet. But we want to create that culture. We want to create that ground swell of people. And then when the opportunity arises, we can move without any...
Rob Chartrand (33:30.65)
Mm -hmm.
Brad Moffatt (33:52.188)
hesitation. And God is so faithful and he's been so faithful here at our church. And so we're just, we're praying into it. And so we've been praying for good six months to navigate what this looks like. And we've just come up with a plan and we've hired a staff member and we're going to hire a couple more staff and it's going to be its own, own field, its own vibe. And, and then, yeah, let's call it that a different same church, different expression.
Rob Chartrand (34:12.762)
Okay, a new expression of the gospel. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (34:19.996)
if that's the case. And then so that's what we're doing now. We have, we planted a church eight years ago, nine years ago, and within the city here. And so we sent about 75 people to another community. And so there's a healthy, thriving church in another community. Yeah, so it's in theory, amazing. And I think that's what we're...
As a healthy church, you're called to go and make disciples. And for us as a church, we have a great culture. I feel God continues to bless us. We don't take ourselves too, too seriously, but we take the ministry very seriously. And so as we do that, and as we look for opportunities, we, yeah, so we were like, let's do this, let's go plant that church. And so it was great. We learned a lot. And, and,
There's a lot of sacrifice in church planting and multiplication that I didn't realize. I didn't realize the emotional toll it would take. I didn't realize that, you know, as a pastor, you love people. I think a good pastor, a good shepherd loves people, which is super, I think, sometimes rare. But as you love people and as you disciple them and as you spend your life with them and you're vulnerable with them, when you send them out,
from a gospel perspective, you're excited about what Jesus is going to do, but I didn't realize how hard it would be because I missed them, right? There is a grieving that I didn't realize, and there's opportunities to be really selfish at times too, because when you send people, you're giving them the freedom, and I think Jesus gives us the freedom, that's what love looks like. Love is.
Rob Chartrand (35:53.754)
Yeah, there's a grieving in that, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (36:15.848)
is free. And so when you send people and you think this is you should do, they have a freedom to do whatever they want to do. And when they don't do it, that's hurtful too. And so we've learned a lot. We've learned a ton of things and we're looking forward to doing it again and we'll change things up. But I love the idea of churches multiplying. I think more churches need to multiply. I think...
Rob Chartrand (36:28.73)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (36:43.239)
gospel presence needs to be in every neighborhood of every city. And yeah, and I'm an advocate for that. And it can look so different. It can look, I would love, I would love older churches that aren't thriving, I would love for them to, to have discussions with churches that that are thriving. And maybe maybe there's opportunities for them to, to hand over the reins, not because it's a pride thing, but it's like, hey, we're like,
God's been faithful for many, many years. We have this beautiful building. Like your story of Crosspoint, how amazing was it that a church gifted you a building? And that is a, I think that should happen more and more in our country because buildings are hard to find and ministry. So yeah, we're excited about what the future holds, whatever that is.
Rob Chartrand (37:27.418)
Yeah, yeah
Rob Chartrand (37:32.41)
So for the new plant or the new expression, let's call it that, have you guys gotten down crystal clear on what it's gonna be? Like is it gonna be an independent church plant? Is it gonna be a multi -site campus like video to teaching? Is it gonna be a multi -church? So it's a church within your orbit? Have you guys drilled down that deep yet?
Brad Moffatt (37:35.911)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (37:46.247)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (37:52.041)
We're just in the process, but it won't be a plant. It will be a campus of McKinsey town. And the reason why we're doing that is I believe in using the giftings of the people that you bring on staff. And obviously you're looking for certain things, but we have an amazing guy that is incredible with people, but he's a great leader, great recruiter, great developer, but he doesn't want to preach.
Rob Chartrand (37:57.082)
Yep. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (38:07.962)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (38:20.346)
Yeah. Okay.
Brad Moffatt (38:22.088)
Um, and so my heart is, I want you to use your gifts and, and we have, we already have a great system in place. We already have, um, a leadership in place. We have a culture that, that we love. We have, we have a, um, financial assistance and process that we already have. And so instead of bogging down this new, new entrepreneurial, uh, startup,
Rob Chartrand (38:35.48)
Mm -hmm.
Brad Moffatt (38:50.634)
Use your giftings and create and we'll send 100 people hopefully. But we already have the system in place so that we can continue to use. I think being a good steward is probably what we are called to do from a church perspective. And for us to be the best stewards we can is just to create another avenue, a venue that, you know, it'll use our children's ministry. So our children's ministry will, it'll be here.
on the main campus and then we'll just equip whatever campuses that we're at and they'll have staff but they don't have to come up with the ideas. They'll be part of that team. Pre -tune will be a hybrid of video and live. Yeah, yeah, so.
Rob Chartrand (39:30.778)
Right, right.
Rob Chartrand (39:36.698)
Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, the theory goes with multi -sites. I mean, pastors wear three or four hats. The administrative hat, the shepherding hat, the leadership hat, and the preaching hat. And if you can take away one of those hats, it gives them a lot more time and energy to invest in other things. Like if you can take away the administration load and the preaching load, suddenly they're shepherding and they're empowering and building people up.
and can maximize that. And especially in a smaller context, right? Because you have fewer staff, you know, and so you can turn them into a specialist rather than a generalist.
Brad Moffatt (40:10.442)
Yeah, exactly.
Brad Moffatt (40:15.723)
Yeah, and there's times like I, I would at some point, if they want to become their own entity, great, like that's perfect. But you know, right now just to be good stewards, that's what that's where we're heading. And, and when we have the resources now, God's bless us with some faithful people. And so we're able to, I don't, I don't want that guy to be fundraising all the time. Get him, get him with people, get him to.
Rob Chartrand (40:29.506)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (40:40.186)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (40:43.751)
love and develop his team and so that they can minister to the community that they're part of and minister to the neighborhood that they're in. And yeah, so that's our desire. And so we've done it before, we'll do it again and we'll see what happens. So just be faithful. It's interesting. I'd just love to see if there's one main, a friend of mine asked me, what have you learned in the last 17 years just about who God is and it's the.
faithfulness of the saints. Like, you know, there's the all -stars, but truthfully, it's just those like the faithful families that just are involved week in, week out. I'm so excited just to see another expression where more people can get involved just to be serving faithfully and behind the scenes. And I look forward to seeing what God's gonna do with that.
Rob Chartrand (41:37.882)
It sounds like here you're multiplying your multiplication vision also includes raising up for developing emerging leaders. I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about that.
Brad Moffatt (41:50.9)
Yeah, so I think part of my story is, is men that looked at me and said, you, you have some leadership gifts that we want to pour into. And so at Briar Crest, I had multiple staff spend quality time with me, and I didn't see it in myself, but they, they would take me out for lunch or, or regularly just speak into my life. And that meant the world to me.
And that really was the tipping point in what God was doing in my life. And I'm sure guys, like my parents obviously did that. I'm sure there's people in my life growing up that did that, but you know, at the age of 18, 19, 20, where you're really just, you're trying to figure out who you are and what your gifts are. And that pressure of what the future holds is a major pressure.
And you know, by the time you're in grade nine or grade 10, people are asking you, what are you going to do for your life? Well, I'm 47 now. I still don't know. Like I'm just, but the pressure is so heavy. And so that meant the world to me to have these guys like, yeah, I can name them. You know, you, a bunch of staff members that probably are colleagues with you now, but it meant a lot to me. And so for us as a church, we have a great community and I think we have a great staff culture.
Rob Chartrand (42:55.482)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (43:17.453)
And God has been blessing that and we're seeing lives changed and many, many people getting baptized and the opportunity for kingdom impact. And so for us as a community, we're going like, how do we invest in the next generation? And so we're intentionally creating an internship program here that gives people an opportunity to explore their faith, explore what God might be wired in them for. And so we're working with.
Rob Chartrand (43:41.754)
Mm -hmm.
Brad Moffatt (43:47.117)
many different schools and we just started it last year and we're developing it and we had three interns this year and we're gonna continue to grow that and it's been very specific in not typically what I see in internship programs is cheap labor. And that's not what we want. We wanna bring in men and women that...
Rob Chartrand (44:03.162)
Yeah, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (44:10.093)
might have a desire to go into church ministry, but they don't know, or maybe they know exactly what they wanna do and we wanna expose them to what a healthy environment looks like. How do you make wise decisions? What does a good staff meeting look like? What does it look like to work with parents if you're working in student ministry? What does it look like? And giving them a well -rounded opportunity. And so we're leaning into that heavily, we're pouring resources into that heavily because the...
That was influential on me, it was influential on our staff. And we want to give 19, 20, 21 year olds, or older, opportunities to explore and go, I'm interested in church ministry, but what does a good environment look like? What does it look like to have leaders that invest in me? What does it look like for me to learn how to open God's word up and teach it in a way that maybe...
Like obviously the schools are teaching that, but what does it look like practically to put together a sermon every week? And so that we're really excited about what that looks like because we want to have the opportunity to tell other churches. We want to say like, hey, they cross point and Edmonton is looking for a children's pastor. We can say we have an incredible intern right now that she or he's been working with us for a year. This is his gifting. This is where he needs to work on.
Rob Chartrand (45:12.25)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (45:37.006)
but he would be amazing for you guys. I know you as like Briar Crests and the many different schools across this country are doing that, but you have so many different facets going on. But if we're investing in these young leaders, we can equip them, we can encourage them and give them amazing experience for a year, two years, three years, and then send them out to different environments and for the kingdom sake, right? Like we'll throw the resources in, but.
How can we equip them so that other churches, other local communities are impacted by what they're learning? So, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (46:13.306)
So are some of your internships then postgraduate like students have graduated from college but now they're like need a kind of an interim between that or is it while they're students in college or you're flexible either way?
Brad Moffatt (46:26.319)
Right now it's while there are students in college, because we're just creating this. This is year, we're heading into year two, but we're super flexible. And so we're looking at for next year, we're looking at somebody that's been graduated, but he's looking into working in with missionaries, but he would like to be equipped in something in an environment that we're really strong in. And so he's looking at coming on staff to just be equipped and.
Rob Chartrand (46:34.234)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (46:51.374)
Mm -hmm.
Brad Moffatt (46:55.856)
to learn and so that, I guess that would be postgraduate. But ideally we want people to, our gifting in our community is our culture and our staffing and we want to give them an amazing experience so that they can see that, you know, church ministry can be, it can be fun, it can be fulfilling and vulnerable. You can, you can,
Rob Chartrand (46:59.834)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (47:24.752)
go through hard times as you know, Rob, like ministries, we have the privilege of walking with people in the best of times and the worst of times. And so we wanna give them an experience that equips them in all ways, so.
Rob Chartrand (47:31.832)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (47:38.554)
Yeah. Well, I know we sent one of our students your way this last year and she had a tremendous experience and just really helped to help her identify her gifts, her abilities, solidify her calling as well, which is what we want from our internship to be spiritually formed and to develop great relationships with mentors, lifelong mentors. And I think, you know, it checked all the boxes.
Brad Moffatt (47:52.72)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (48:04.464)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (48:08.172)
for that student. And in our in our Christian ministry program here, we're going through a redesign. We have been for a couple years, but we'll be launching a new program in the fall and internship is going to be a capstone feature of it. I mean, it's we want to send our students to churches that are doing it well. And I'm thinking through how can we really invest in this emerging generation of leaders, because we're seeing so few of them coming into the
Brad Moffatt (48:28.048)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (48:37.124)
Christian colleges now, we want to make sure that we send them to places that aren't like you would say, free labor, go get my dry cleaning and please get my Starbucks order on your way back. But rather places that would say let's sit down and intentionally invest in this young person for the purpose of preparing them for a life in ministry. And I mean, that's the design of our program too. I mean, that's what we want.
Brad Moffatt (48:50.16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (49:03.312)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (49:06.234)
But I also, I also want to see, and I'm starting to identify churches that are doing this well, but as you're thinking of it, like post -graduation apprenticeships, because if you're a children's pastor major or say a youth pastor, you're going to find a natural landing place. Typically, churches can hire you right out of college into those roles. But if your heart is, say, a pastoral ministry or associate, you're 22 years old.
I mean, you don't have a lot of water under the bridge. What do you know, right? And, and the churches that might want to hire you might be really desperate and it might not be the best thing for you when you're 22 years old. Like it'd be very challenging. And, you know, we're seeing the resiliency studies saying like 50 % of young leaders quit within the first five years, like because it's just too hard. And so I have a vision and I'm sharing this with you and I want to, I'm going to continue to share it with our listeners of
Brad Moffatt (49:35.824)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (49:43.825)
Yes. Yes.
Brad Moffatt (50:00.41)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (50:02.234)
post -graduation apprenticeships, two or three years of investment from churches where young graduates can go in and just have this opportunity to learn and to grow without that weight and that pressure, which is just going to help better prepare them, I think, for ministry because so much of ministry is the development of pastoral imagination. You can't develop that in a classroom. You can't even develop it necessarily. You got to be doing the church to grow that part of ministry. And so...
If we can find great churches like yourself, I know some others that are doing this. I think we just need more and more churches to think that through.
Brad Moffatt (50:36.689)
Mm -hmm.
Brad Moffatt (50:41.394)
There's a lot of pressure when you graduate because you're expected to come in and be the expert, but at 22, you're not an expert in anything. So to create an environment where someone can make mistakes, where someone can speak into their life or walk with them, like an internship should be walking with them. I'll show you what to do, you do it. And so, yeah, that I...
continue to scream that loud because I think churches need to give opportunities. And then after two years, three years, I think they're well more equipped to go into an environment where maybe they can gracefully navigate leadership. But I think the opportunity that you have is there's now a network of people that they can turn to.
Rob Chartrand (51:30.17)
Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (51:38.355)
You know, they have their profs obviously at school, but now they have practitioners that they can FaceTime with, they can phone call, they can be like, what do I do here? Because truthfully, like, there's not a lot of us out there. Like I look at my undergrad experience of all of the people that I went to school with, very small amount are in pastoral ministry. Yet 90 % of them would say, yeah, I'm gonna be a pastor for life.
Rob Chartrand (52:03.706)
Yeah, yeah.
Brad Moffatt (52:08.723)
But most of them aren't because so many different variables, but how amazing would it be to create an environment where like, yeah, like this, it is a healthy space. It is a, it is a space that, that, that the world needs you to be in church ministry. Or like maybe at the end of the day, you are in that internship and God leads you into the marketplace. Awesome. That's amazing. You know,
Rob Chartrand (52:34.074)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (52:36.243)
Now you know what it's look, what does it look like to be in the marketplace but actively involved in your local church. So yeah, yeah, I encourage you with that.
Rob Chartrand (52:43.802)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the new data, I just got it. It's coming out of EFC is that in Canada, in the next 12 years, we will have to produce something like 650 new pastors every year in the next 12 years, just to catch up. And if I think of the number of, you know, theological institutions that are out there, we're not even close to that. Like, that's not even close.
Brad Moffatt (53:03.827)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Moffatt (53:10.932)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (53:13.018)
But I don't think the weight can fall on theological institutions. It can't. It's got to be a partnership between the local church and schools. And I see that now. I didn't see it as clearly when I was on the other side in pastoral ministry for 30 years, but now I see, wow, we've got to figure out a way to work together. And I think what you're doing, apprenticeships, internships, is such a significant part of...
of that plan and God's plan to raise up a new generation of pastors. It's just got to happen.
Brad Moffatt (53:43.06)
Yeah, keep it up. Your school is a catalyst for that because you guys love the local church and you stand on God's word and it's not easy. And so as churches, if we can partner with you guys and support you as well, that's...
and not just you, but all other schools, just to cheer you on and to, we have a different skillset that the academic world does have. And so how can we be a support to you guys as well in whatever you're doing? So, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (54:16.25)
That's right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (54:22.778)
Yeah. Well, let's do it together, brother. Let's do it together. Hey, I wonder, Brad, is there a final word of encouragement that you could give to our ministry leaders who are out there listening today?
Brad Moffatt (54:27.093)
All right. All right.
Brad Moffatt (54:38.741)
Yeah, it's one of my mentors, he would always write cards to people and at the end of it, he would always say, keep on keeping on. And at the time, I thought nothing of it, but ministry is a grind at times. But as I sit with our staff here, we always remind ourselves of what a privilege it is to walk with people.
and what a privilege it is to serve a faithful God that, yeah, even when it seems like he's not working, he's always up to something. And as a friend of mine always says, he's never not up to something. And so I just think if you're in ministry, it is just always being reminding ourselves of how good God is and how faithful he is. And we just need to keep.
keep going on. And I think I think podcasts like this, the opportunity just to reach out and find some support with the people around you. I think pastors we were lone rangers at times, and I know I am. But I think an opportunity like discussing like you and you and I, Rob, we could talk ministry all day long. But too often we're so ingrained in just our, our tasks that we don't we don't support one another, we don't pray for one another. And I don't.
I don't reach out enough. And so I just, I think when we're doing what we're doing and God's called us to it, just that grind, just knowing that God is faithful and he'll accomplish what he needs to accomplish. So, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (56:20.57)
Amen, brother. Brad Moffitt, thanks for joining us on Church in the North. Hope to get you back here again. Yeah, God bless. Yeah. Okay.
Brad Moffatt (56:25.718)
Thanks, man. What a privilege. What a privilege. Thank you.