Rob Chartrand (00:04.15)
Well, hey, we're excited to have on Church in the North today, Maxime Cochon. He is the lead pastor of Lefar Church in Lavaltry, Quebec. How'd I do with the pronunciation there? Okay. So good to have you here on Church in the North, welcome.
Maxime C (00:15.454)
Pretty good actually.
Maxime C (00:21.438)
Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
Rob Chartrand (00:23.862)
We want to talk about your ministry journey first before we get into the conversation we're going to have today about church planting and Quebec and what God is doing there in your context. But hey, why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about your journey into ministry. Where did it all begin?
Maxime C (00:41.662)
Where did it all begin? That's a good question. But to be short, we'll flash some few things in my life. But eight years ago, I was in a church and I was realizing that I don't know what God doing in my life. I don't know what Jesus did for me. Like I've been baptized like for 10 years before that. And I actually realized that...
I think I don't understand the gospel. So I took an elder in the church, I asked him and said, well, I think I'm going off track of here. Could you help me please about that? And when I think about that today, I just realized that I had never been a disciple. So that's a huge problem in my first new life as a Christian. But Donal...
took me for a couple of weeks, actually about all summer, and we walked together and he invited me in his home and we have lunch together and everything, almost every week. And then I realized what Jesus just did for me. I know now that he's my savior, he's gone on the cross for my sin, and now I have the eternal life for like after everything, you know?
So, it make a huge difference in my life because now that I'm knowing that, I'm not gonna be like how I used to be, just sitting on a chair and consume the church and the preach and everything. I'm gonna have to be all the way involved. I'm gonna be engaged in this because now I have to share what I just learned eight years later. But anyway, now I have the information, right?
So he took me, Donald took me on a trip of two weeks in Ontario because he worked as a missionary. So a lot of church outside of Quebec, actually in Ontario, support him as a ministry, as a missionary. So he took me with him and when we go through those kind of those church, I met a lot of people and when I come back I said, okay, Lord,
Maxime C (03:07.742)
you're right, I'm gonna have to do something with this and at the same time in my home church the pastor just said that in the front so we have a plan to plan a church so if you feel cowled for this or something like that just fill up the sheet and apply for it as a co -worker or as a planter said okay that's for me I'm gonna get involved in this so I took the sheet and I
I check the box of the planter because if I do this, I'm not going to be just halfway or energized by this. I'm going to be full time. I'm going to end it away. I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm going to check the box of a planter app right off the bat. And then a month after that, I quit my job, go to seminary full time and start a formation to a training actually in church planting.
Rob Chartrand (04:05.11)
Wow, wow. So what were you doing for work before that? What were you doing as a job?
Maxime C (04:05.854)
And...
Maxime C (04:10.206)
I was working part -time as a firefighter and the other part as an exterminator. So that's two different weird jobs to put together.
Rob Chartrand (04:13.334)
-huh.
Rob Chartrand (04:18.55)
Yeah. What a blend. So, so you were just like new into this new experience of faith and there was this invitation to plant a church and you said, I'm in and then totally change your life and went back to school. Then what happened?
Maxime C (04:36.222)
Yeah.
Maxime C (04:40.414)
Then what happened after that, that was eight years ago. So I took the seminary. We took two training actually of two years of planting. We planted church six years ago in Lavaltrie, it was called Le Far. And I've been lead pastor there for five years. And then just last year, I switched the pastoral world to a young pastor of 17 years old, Jérémie.
who has a big heart, a really shepard -oriented heart. So he took the first place there, and now I'm actually working on my next planting.
Rob Chartrand (05:21.75)
Okay, okay, so we're gonna get into that a little bit more, because that's another story that's fascinating. But let's back up just a little bit. So you were in seminary, and then how long from the time you checked off that box before you planted the church, and what happened in between?
Maxime C (05:25.726)
Yeah.
Maxime C (05:38.53)
When that was in August, so two years, we were in summer of 2017 and then the 29th of September 2019, we did our first celebration in the church.
Rob Chartrand (05:58.134)
Okay, so did you do any specific church planting training?
Maxime C (06:02.366)
We do incubator with C2C collective. I think you heard of that in the...
Rob Chartrand (06:08.054)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've I've I was a I was involved in all of that movement. Yeah. OK, yeah.
Maxime C (06:15.022)
yeah, so I did take the training of three years. Now I'm giving training with them and I'm a part of the assessment group too. So I'm a product of Safe2See, I guess, or something like that. And we have our, sorry.
Rob Chartrand (06:27.798)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, but I mean, even that, I was gonna say even that, like that's a really fast learning curve for you in those two years to go from, you know, checking off that box to actually planting a church. I mean, that's your growth, your personal growth must've been huge.
Maxime C (06:43.23)
Yeah, that was pretty fast. Yeah, actually, a couple years after that, my wife just told me, said, you know, I've been praying that God will be your passion for many, many years. And now I don't know if I have to regret that prayer because the thing we're going so fast. But but actually we have a lot of good time. We have hard time. We have like
sad time but God is good with us and yeah we plan the church pretty quickly but it's great. God is doing a lot of good work in Lavaltry and he speaks to new leaders so this is great, this is really great.
Rob Chartrand (07:31.543)
Yeah, I mean you were learning not just how to plant a church, but how to pastor, how to be a spiritual leader. Like there's so much that you were learning in that very short period of time. Did you have some mentors with you along the journey?
Maxime C (07:39.934)
Mm -hmm.
Maxime C (07:49.086)
Not that much, actually. I don't know why, but in my early Christian life, I found that particularly hard to find someone to follow me and coach me or mentor me. But when I was in the C2C program, I get to be coached by JP Ney. I don't know if you ever heard that name first. But he's been really great with me and he continues to follow me.
As a coach and I really appreciate all the time I have with him for sure
Rob Chartrand (08:23.958)
Yeah, yeah. So tell us about your church. How would you describe it to our listeners? Where is it? You know, talk about the size. What's the community like?
Maxime C (08:32.862)
Yes.
We've been traveling a lot and moving a lot with that church. We rent a family community building, a CrossFit gym. We went at the Catholic church, go back to the gym, go back to the community center. And now we have a pretty cool building that we rent with other church actually.
Rob Chartrand (08:40.95)
Okay.
Maxime C (09:05.274)
Pentecost church in the afternoon and the business Christian men fellowship. I don't know how to call that in English, but we share that we share all that building. So this is pretty great, but it's been a lot of moving in the past six years. But after that, the church was what's kind of small because we didn't think about something really big. We came from a model church where we had two
Rob Chartrand (09:14.358)
Okay, yeah.
Maxime C (09:34.366)
250 people, but we found that more than that you have people in your church, more than you're going to be introvert with the service that you give, the structure that you put in place. And we really like the idea to be really engaged with the community, with the city and everything. And Lavaltry is a town of 15...
thousand people so it's not that big. So we left our mother church and went to la Veltrie, we were 10, five couple and now we may be reaching about 60 adults plus the kids. So for Quebec it's a good size church, it's a normal size church, right?
Rob Chartrand (10:05.782)
Okay, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (10:20.47)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (10:27.254)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So where do the families come from? How did they find out about your church? How did they end up in your community?
Maxime C (10:35.166)
Most of the people came from La Valtrye. And when we first planned, we said, okay, we're going to convert all La Valtrye. And there's always going to be new believers in the church and everything. But actually, God didn't make that happen. That was the plan first. But God gave us some other kind of people. We had a lot of no church going.
Rob Chartrand (10:39.19)
Mm -hmm.
Maxime C (11:03.934)
I don't know if it's an expression on your side of the world, but so a lot of Christians that just kind of leave the church by the ear, getting hurt by the church or something like that, who just have lost faith or something like that. So we have a lot of this. And after that, we have a lot of people who came from other churches but live in Lavaltrie, but did like 25 or 40 minutes in car to get in the church.
Rob Chartrand (11:04.574)
Hmm. Unchurched. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (11:32.502)
Mm. Yeah. It was closer.
Maxime C (11:33.502)
elsewhere. So it's closer for them. And we actually are kind of a really family church, missional church, relational church. So the way that we do things, I think it's kind of appealing to those who look for those kind of church. We have like big church with the band and really good preacher and everything. We don't aim for that kind of church.
We really want to be together as a community and being outside of the church to work and be light and salt for the community of La Valtrye. So we are not afraid, we are the kind of church that we are not afraid to close the church on a Sunday morning to be outside and doing something with the city. So.
Rob Chartrand (12:24.374)
Okay, so you're very externally focused. You're for the city, missional church expression. Yeah, yeah. And you're convocational in ministry as well. I mean, this isn't your full -time gig. You've got some other stuff happening as well. Talk to us about that.
Maxime C (12:28.094)
We try to be. Yeah. Yeah.
Maxime C (12:41.534)
Yeah, I'm actually now, by the time I'd be becoming the director for the Church Planting, Evangelism and Multiplication for the French Union Baptist of Canada. So it's a pretty big name, but actually I don't do much. But no, but yeah, so we try to rethink everything about church planting, multiplication and strategy of evangelism in...
in the Franco, in the French area of Quebec, but of the other province in Canada as well. I'm doing this and I'm the responsible for the committee of church planting for the network, the evangelical Quebec network. So that regroup 12 church family together. And we try to think about what's going to happen next because...
Rob Chartrand (13:27.634)
Hmm. Okay.
Maxime C (13:37.822)
the union, the French union, not going to be able to evangelize all the Quebec by ourselves. That's impossible. That's a pretty big lie that we can't believe actually. But we think that we have to share resources, we have to think together and work together. So we put 12 church families from different denominations together and try to think, okay, what's next? What's going to be tomorrow in church planting and everything?
Rob Chartrand (13:44.566)
Okay, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (14:05.462)
Okay, yeah.
Maxime C (14:07.39)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (14:09.462)
So, I want to dig a little bit deeper on that. I want to talk about that vision that Union Baptists have for church planting in Quebec. But your own church is, you alluded to this earlier, is going to plant another church. And so your role has switched or is it switching and there's some change happening right now as you prepare for that. Talk to us about that.
Maxime C (14:32.158)
Yeah. I don't know where I read that like a couple years ago, but I was in a book and it says like, if a church plan don't plan a church in the five to 10 years of his life, that church never gonna plan the church. So I said to myself, okay, we need like about 5 ,000 more church in Quebec. So we have to do something with this, right?
Rob Chartrand (14:50.806)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (15:00.374)
Yeah.
Maxime C (15:00.574)
So when we planned that church, we did plan with really a good shepherd like Jérémy, who's gonna take the role and leave me to be able to do something else. And it's been six years that we've planned the church and now we think that it's a good time to think about the next plant. Because we have to do this before we get 10 years old, right? So we're in that year.
Rob Chartrand (15:25.43)
Yeah, yeah.
Maxime C (15:29.15)
to in the discerning and praying where God wants us to to plant next. And even in the in the vision of the church, when we first plant, we had that thing that we want to reach outside of Lavaltry and we want to plant more church. So it's already in the DNA and we're going to have like this because it's what we take. It's what we said first. We have to do this.
Rob Chartrand (15:53.238)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, so is he, was he in your church or did he come from outside your church to take on this role?
Maxime C (16:00.734)
He was in the model church and he is a part of the core group too, when we plant at Lavaltry. So it was a part of the plan already. So I'm going to be full time and he was like an electrician first. And we said, okay, I'm a five days a week. You're going to be one day a week, four, two, three. And then the time goes on and now he's full time in the pastoral role in the church.
Rob Chartrand (16:06.006)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (16:22.006)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (16:27.542)
Yeah. Okay.
Maxime C (16:28.414)
and now I'm working for my family church. So I don't need the money of the church anymore to live. So I'm kind of a free agent. So I can plan in another city.
Rob Chartrand (16:35.254)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (16:42.87)
Okay, well that's great, because that was my question. And you know, a lot of churches and ministry leaders who are listening right now are probably wondering, how on earth does a church with 60 people plant another church and afford two pastors full time? When we're a church of say 500 and the idea of planting a church just seems so daunting. But you guys obviously have a plan in place and you've got a support base to help.
Maxime C (16:57.502)
Yeah.
Maxime C (17:05.79)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (17:12.054)
make this transition happen.
Maxime C (17:12.336)
Yeah, so Jérémie was co -vocational for like five years. And actually in Quebec, probably 75 or 80 % of the pastors are co -vocational. So being full -time, it's kind of out of reach for a lot of pastors, a lot of people who go to seminary.
Rob Chartrand (17:18.966)
Yeah, that's huge too.
Rob Chartrand (17:28.246)
Hmm.
Maxime C (17:38.494)
Most of those full -time pastor are in the big city like Montreal, Quebec, Longueuil, those kind of cities, right? So, the soon as you get out of those big cities, you're gonna be convocational. That's for sure. And 60 people is not enough to have a pastor full -time, paid by the church. But God is great, they're giving us money at the church.
Rob Chartrand (17:54.646)
Yeah, yeah.
Maxime C (18:07.294)
It's doing well. We don't do we the pastor don't have like 200 ,000. Well, sorry, you don't get paid a lot. But but well, you survive is a it's it's it's decent. You can live with that. And it's good. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:19.862)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:28.694)
Yeah. Well, and I think that's maybe one of our great hindrances. We even experienced that here in Western Canada is so many of our small rural communities can no longer afford a full -time pastor or so many of them have no more churches left or the churches are closing their doors. And the solution is really we need co -vocational pastors, pastors who are willing to do part -time work there and do another career. And
So many of our graduates from colleges and seminaries are coming out expecting full -time work. And so inevitably, where do they end up? In the cities where there are churches that can afford them full -time. But all the while, so much of Canada is missing the gospel because we need convocational workers. So, I mean, huge kudos to you and to your church for wanting to reach into a part of the country.
Maxime C (19:11.294)
Mm -hmm.
Maxime C (19:16.798)
Yeah.
Maxime C (19:21.214)
Totally.
Rob Chartrand (19:27.862)
that needs the gospel and willing to do the co -vocational work. That's huge.
Maxime C (19:31.902)
We don't have the choice. We don't really have a lot of money here in Quebec for doing a ministry. We are less than 1 % of evangelicals in Quebec, 9 million people. So it makes... Well, when you don't have money, you get creative, right? So... So we have to find our way. And...
Rob Chartrand (19:50.646)
That's right. Yeah. It's the guys without money that are creative. It's not the ones with the money.
Maxime C (19:59.774)
being full time in ministry, it's kind of really hard. You have to wear a lot of hats here. And it's not really appealing when you go out of seminary to go in a little town. Okay, you're gonna shepherd like 20 people and it's gonna be no co -vocational. Nobody wants to do that. But we need to find a way that it's to make ting the people who wants to go in the ministry. That's pretty good idea actually.
Rob Chartrand (20:04.15)
Hmm. Yeah.
Maxime C (20:29.726)
because you have a feat inside of the church, but you have the other one in the world, you have the other one in a working area or something like that. So, because a lot of time when you get full time, you don't meet non -Christian anymore. But Kova Keshenal could found something and said, okay, so I can do ministry full time, but my pain that's gonna come from the church all the way, it's gonna be half and half.
Rob Chartrand (20:38.518)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (20:45.046)
That's right, yeah.
Maxime C (20:58.622)
But you're doing ministry anyway, anywhere you are right now. You're doing ministry.
Rob Chartrand (21:03.858)
Yeah. Yeah, and so as a church planter, you're supposed to be with people far from God. So if you're convocational, you're going to be inevitably working hand in hand with them every day.
Maxime C (21:18.91)
Yeah, so in some way, you sign for that. And if you sign like to be in a planter or something like that, you're going to have to reach people. And reaching people is not the one who is sitting in your church, is the one outside the church, right? So you're going to have to be there out and preaching and getting in relation with a lot of people, not the different people in needs and everything. And the people actually on the field have questioned.
Rob Chartrand (21:34.55)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Maxime C (21:48.318)
and they don't have answer anymore, they don't know where to go. So you could be like a chaplain in your own city, has a bridge in the world and in the church and you make that connection, right?
Rob Chartrand (22:03.222)
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you and I were talking before and you said that your core team is going to be developed around the apest model. And then so for our listeners, apest is, it's from Ephesians 4 .11, it's apostle, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers. So the fivefold ministries, gifts or offices, however you interpret it. And I know Alan Hirsch has written a lot about the apest recently, but.
Maxime C (22:12.414)
Mm -hmm.
Maxime C (22:28.67)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (22:30.198)
Talk to us about that. Why are you modeling it around the APEST model? Why is it important?
Maxime C (22:36.286)
Well, for two things, I think when I first decided to plan the church with the team, because I don't believe that you can do this by yourself alone. You need a team to be healthy in your spiritual life, but in your health life too. And so you have to be a team. And when you get a team, it's really nice when you don't have the same skills. And...
Rob Chartrand (23:02.838)
Right. Yeah.
Maxime C (23:04.67)
And when we plant with Jérémie, who has really a shepherd heart, we said, okay, that's brilliant, actually. We're going to have a shepherd in the church. Makes sense. But the shepherd not always is a planter, and a planter is not always a shepherd, and he's not always an evangelical, an evangelist. So to trying to do all the apes by yourself, it's kind of dangerous.
You're going to lose yourself, you're going to burn yourself, and you're going to lie to yourself too, because you don't have all this. God gives that to certain people in the church to equip the others, not just to keeping you for yourself and doing everything. So you're in the body of Christ, so you have to trust the body of Christ and what God's given to it. And by the time, with the years, I think I found that...
Rob Chartrand (23:46.998)
That's right. Yeah.
Maxime C (24:03.902)
I'm an apostolic one. I'm not, I can shepherd, but it's not my first skill. I can do evangelists, but it's not my first skill. I think my first skill is to be apostolic. And that's why we try to plan church and I'm already on a new project and everything. So that's, that's my skill. So if it's my skill, that's mean I'm not a prophet. I'm not a teacher. I'm not a shepherd. I'm not an evangelist. I'm not a
Rob Chartrand (24:06.358)
Yeah, you're you're an egg.
Maxime C (24:32.83)
I need a team with me. And when we go back to Jérémie, when we plant a church and we said, okay, now, who's gonna take the role of pastor? Well, the shepherd, of course, it's obvious. So the next plant, we'll have an apostolic one, we'll have a prophet one, we'll have a shepherd, we'll have an evangelist, well, we will try to have this. But it's by God grace. And I'm...
Rob Chartrand (24:58.07)
Yes, yes, by God's grace. Yeah.
Maxime C (25:02.686)
I'm pretty sure he's gonna fulfill that grace because he's giving everything to the church to work and every time we think that we don't have it or we have to go somewhere else in another church or something like that to found it it's kind of a lie because we just don't see what God has put on the field in your church you have you're supposed to have everything in your own church to plan another church
If you don't have it, it's maybe because you don't multiply your leader enough. It's maybe because you don't, you, you keep some responsibility to yourself and you don't empower others. So, so yeah, that's a part, but the other part is you need a team and you need a team with different skill. And if we can have the APIS, all the team together, it's going to be great. That's for sure. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (25:56.854)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, in so many churches in North America emphasize the shepherd and the teacher and we ignore the A and the P and the E because those are the mavericks. Those are the crazy ones who cause stuff to happen and create trouble.
Maxime C (26:09.214)
Yeah.
Maxime C (26:16.83)
Yeah, we don't know what to do with them. It's kind of misfit and take some flyer, go in the front of the church, but you're going to be involved in any of the rest of the church, right? And most of the church family to have like a pipeline to do, to have pastor, pipeline to have theologian. But what we do, how can we equip and train and give tool to the evangelist one, the apostolic one, the prophet one.
Rob Chartrand (26:26.934)
Yeah, yeah.
Maxime C (26:46.174)
It's a problem. And that's why we don't have like a newcomer, new worker, because we didn't plan those kind of worker. We didn't do anything. And now the RMS is empty. Why? Because we didn't put time on those ones.
Rob Chartrand (26:46.486)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (27:05.302)
And a lot of the apes, the A -P -E's, they, because they can't find a place in the church, they often go elsewhere. They go and serve in the parachurch or they go and serve in missions, but we really need them in the body of Christ.
Maxime C (27:12.958)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
For a long time we've been playing church with champions. So that's the champion. So he's going to be the pastor, he's going to be the teacher, he's going to be the preacher, he's going to be the one who deals with everything administratively. And so there's no place for a leader to emerge in that. There's no place for the leader to learn and try to do something in the church. So...
those kind of leaders will leave the church eventually and just try to be in the ministry in another church. Or even worse, they're just gonna... Okay, then it's maybe because God don't give me the opportunity to be a leader, so I'm not gonna be a leader and I'm just gonna sit here, read my Bible at home and do nothing with it. So we're kind of killing leaders like that.
Rob Chartrand (28:09.782)
Yeah, sit and soak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And fade into the background, yeah. So you talked before about some of the challenges of planting churches in Quebec. I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that. And maybe you can talk a bit about maybe the history of Quebec and how that has affected church planting.
Maxime C (28:38.462)
Yeah, well, I'm not a specialist about that. But here's what I think. We have the Quiet Revolution in 1960. That's make the, it make a part the religion and the government. So at that time, 80 % of the Quebec Christian one were Catholic. And since then, since then,
Rob Chartrand (28:48.242)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (29:02.846)
Yep.
Maxime C (29:07.774)
because there's a lot of happened with Catholic Church in Quebec. They've been there until the really beginning of the province, right? And they're asking to the people to have a lot of kids and introduce houses and life of people who said, you have to do this, you have to be pregnant, you have to believe in God and everything, baptizing everyone, like two weeks of birth. And it may...
the people in Quebec really hurt. And now they have a weight on their shoulder about the church because the church is bad. It's trying to tell you what you're doing wrong, but what you have to do too. What you have to do in your intimate relation too, because you have to be pregnant and everything. And you're a sinner and you have to pay for...
for your sin you have to go see the priest to have the redemption and everything. Well, all of this makes a lot of damage, right? And it's still in the DNA of Quibbaker. So when you try to talk about Jesus now, a lot of people just won't talk to you anymore. Or just say, yeah, okay, call for you.
But I have something else to do, so let's not talk anymore." Okay, that's weird. And you have a huge gap and couple of generations, but the boomer, the millennials still have that that hurting thing, like the bitterness of Catholic religion and Jesus and God and everything. But now with the younger generation,
Rob Chartrand (30:57.718)
Okay, yeah.
Maxime C (31:04.286)
They have questioned, they didn't have that past, they didn't know about that past anymore. So they have questioned, but they don't know where to go to find the answer. We are maybe some kind of near of a new harvest, a new revival or something like that, I believe. But it made the ministry really hard because no one wants to hear about Jesus. You cannot talk about Jesus in a...
in at work or something like that. You can go in a park and have a celebration about Jesus or Sunday morning or something like that because the city will not allow you to do this. You cannot rent a community center anymore. When you want to plan a church somewhere and you just build a building, you cannot have the priority for a religion site.
anymore, you don't want to do that anymore. So it's kind of difficult. And because we are not a lot of a Christian here, we don't have a lot of money to work. So it's always kind of shutting door off and closing door and everything. And, and even if you knock really hard, it's still, yeah. And when people, yeah, go, go.
Rob Chartrand (32:19.606)
Hmm. Hmm.
Yeah. So you've got, sorry, you've got government restriction on one hand, you're saying, and then you've got cultural aversion. The culture doesn't want to talk about it. And then you've got low resources. And so lots of challenges. Where's the hope for church planting in Quebec?
Maxime C (32:37.982)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Maxime C (32:49.054)
The hope is where God is going to do his work. The hope is we still have God mighty enough to transform life and change the way a nation think. And we have some people on the field that God let us serve him and work for him and do stuff. So I think we can do something and we don't need...
that much money and we don't need...
How can I say that? I mean, we don't need fancy stuff. We just need to share the gospel. And that's one of the parts that a lot of time when we ask for money or we ask for help elsewhere in Canada or even in the United States, they don't understand the context here. So they said, okay, you're going to plant a church. How many people are you going to have in one year in it? And how many baptism are you going to do in one year? And...
We're kind of, well, if you can just give me a grant, I will start to share the gospel and let's see how it works. We're kind of in that lyric, right? So it's still difficult, but like I said earlier, there's a new generation who have an emptiness of something and they don't know where to go to have those answers. Maybe chaplaincy, it's going to be a way that it's...
Rob Chartrand (34:03.208)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maxime C (34:24.254)
going to make a connection or a bridge between the world and the church, maybe to simplify our structure of church too. We have kind of mega church here in Quebec, but maybe we have 10 on a couple of hundred of church, right? So it's, I don't think it's going to be that thing who's going to change everything. Maybe we could found something more simplified, more...
like, I don't know, not house church, but micro church. It's not something really popular in here because the people are not really...
They don't really like to go in the basement of someone to talk about Jesus. They feel like, okay, what part of my body is going to miss after that? It's sound kind of weird. Why? So there's an idea here. I think we found that a church needs to have a building, a great worship team, a preacher for an hour and a half.
Rob Chartrand (35:11.446)
Right?
Rob Chartrand (35:16.086)
Right. It's a bit creepy. Yeah, yeah.
Maxime C (35:37.15)
and good coffee. But if we simplify that and we try to reach the community another way as a house church, micro church or something like that, maybe we could make a new safe place for the people who are just asking questions. They don't want to be a part of something at first, they're just asking questions. So let's do something and put a safe place there for them.
and answer some questions and build relationships. They're craving for relationships. So let's just start with that.
Rob Chartrand (36:14.326)
Yeah. Well, I, and I think that scarcity and opposition, leads us to trust and it leads us to innovation. We have to think through different ways of doing it because the way we're doing it now is not reaching people. And so it's a great time to innovate. I mean, you've, you've got nothing to lose, right? Yeah.
Maxime C (36:31.038)
Yeah, we have to think different. Yeah, exactly. Well, all we've been doing for maybe the past 10 years didn't change the one person that we are. So it might explain that there's something that we're doing or not doing great. It's time for change. The church will be the church. The gospel will be the gospel for sure. But let's try to...
to send a message and another address.
Rob Chartrand (37:01.942)
Yeah, yeah. Well, the other thing that scarcity and opposition do is they bring us together. So talk to me about the Union Baptists and their working with other denominations. I think you said 10 other denominations to want to plant churches together.
Maxime C (37:17.054)
Actually in the REC, the REC is the Réseau Évangélique Québec, so it's an evangelical network of Québec. And it's 12 church families. So we have Pentecostal, we have Methodists, brothers, Baptists. I don't want to forget. Okay, I'm going to forget someone, so I'm sorry about that. Sorry, but yeah, so we're a lot of people there. We don't think...
Rob Chartrand (37:24.374)
Yeah, yeah.
12 church families. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (37:38.998)
That's okay. That's okay.
Maxime C (37:45.79)
everything in the same way, but we can work together. We have Jesus as a savior. Let's work with that. And how can we plan church together? How can we evangelize together? How can we go against the government who said you cannot rent a community center? Because they don't have the right to do this. But they do. But after that, the evangelical team,
We'll say, okay, then we want a good relationship, so we won't do anything. So, okay, we're not gonna run the community center. But actually we could just fight and fight back and say, hey, you don't have the right to say no about that. So the network, it's all of this. We want to go out and confront the government on certain law and everything. We want to be together and think about...
the evangelists of tomorrow, we want to think about together about church planting and how we can share resources. How can we multiply what we are doing on each side, but now together. So bring everything that you have put in the pot in the middle of the table and how can we work with that? We want to do that with this. So, and yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (39:10.23)
Yeah. So you have a common goal. You have a common enemy. Not an enemy, but a common challenge. And so that brings people together. If you had any challenges, I mean, you got a pretty mixed bag of nuts there as far as denominations go. There's been any challenges at all you faced?
Maxime C (39:18.622)
Yeah, yeah.
Maxime C (39:25.486)
Yeah, yeah. I think it's been 12 years that the network has been created. And we're not gonna lie, the first year was just like building bridge, just make the relation work. And okay, I heard you in the past because of this. I'm sorry.
Let's go on now and everything. So it's been a lot of this actually probably in the past 10 years. But recently in the two years that we just have, we are most more forward thinking. Yeah, well, that's not really a good sentence, right? Anyway, but we are thinking about the future and we are thinking about, okay, guys,
Rob Chartrand (39:52.534)
Okay.
Maxime C (40:21.694)
Now that we have all the fights that we have, it's solved. And we're back and we love each other. So let's work together and how can we do that? And now everyone around the table wants to work together, wants to see something happen. They know that if they are going alone again, it's not going to be able to work anything.
So we have to work together for the Kingdom. And I think we have that now. Now let's see what God is going to do with that. But I'm pretty sure that God is pleased with the idea that we are all sitting at the same place and we think together and praying together and want to go forward.
Rob Chartrand (41:16.182)
So you're sharing ideas, you're sharing resources. Obviously you've done some good reconciliation work together. Are there any denominations that are actually planting together? They're like, we're going to both pour resources into this one church plant and launch it together. Has that happened?
Maxime C (41:35.934)
We had in the past a couple of denomination, different denomination we have planned together. Some of those projects went well, others didn't work. But actually now we looking at how can we do that in safe spot that you're gonna have your place, I'm gonna have your place, and my place, and where the money come from and at who you're gonna report. So we put...
like a document of ethical, ethical, is that the right word? Yeah. So we put a paper like, okay, when are we going to plan together that we're going to have to follow all of these to work well, to have a healthy relationship in that plant. And when we do those kinds of things, we're going to have to follow all those rules together and be engaged together and be like reporting to each other and try to do well.
Rob Chartrand (42:09.206)
Ethical. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (42:18.582)
Okay, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (42:32.79)
So a values statement, a policy statement on your values, shared values, okay. Yeah, I mean, cause it's a challenge because where's the money coming from? Who gets to report it? You know, is it this denomination's church plant? Is it that, you know, because you're accountable to donors and you're accountable to other bodies in your denomination, it's always a sticky point. And then that statement of faith for the church plant, which one do they put in there?
Maxime C (42:35.294)
Yeah, values. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I was.
Maxime C (42:47.102)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (43:01.846)
Or do they just find something kind of middle ground that accommodates both?
Maxime C (43:02.014)
Yeah.
Maxime C (43:08.286)
Well, maybe in the future, we're just going to plan as a evangelical network and not union and not association and not the Pentecostal thing and everything. We don't know that about not yet. But what we want to do is to take advantage of all the skill that we have around the table. Some of the church family have more money. Some others have a coaching skill, really high coaching skill.
Rob Chartrand (43:15.062)
Hmm.
Maxime C (43:38.046)
So let's put that together, plan a church and see how we'll go. But I think with enough faith, God is gonna do great things there. And the fight that, you're gonna have to report this? Yeah, but the other one give me more money. So I'm gonna report to them first. And those kind of fight will be just put aside. And we're actually gonna see the kingdom just growing and the work of God there. And...
Rob Chartrand (43:55.446)
Yeah, yeah.
Maxime C (44:07.774)
We're just going to be like, OK, that's so nice to see. Let's just not touch everything because it works.
Rob Chartrand (44:09.878)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's again, scarcity opposition requires innovation. So you're going to have to innovate at that level. Like let's innovate on how we do the reporting. Let's innovate on how we do the statements and all that. I think the value statement you created, that's a great innovation, right? It's like, okay, let's create something else that bridges the gap and brings us all together and allows us to plant without all of these walls that we put up around planting.
Maxime C (44:24.894)
Exactly.
Maxime C (44:34.494)
Mm -hmm.
Maxime C (44:42.014)
Yeah, I was working, not working, but talking about the church plant in up north and with the Pentecostal leader, I said, hey, we should do something together. And I'm a Baptist, right? So I'll give you some feedback in a year. Just, yeah, how it goes. I don't know.
Rob Chartrand (45:04.886)
High autonomy.
Maxime C (45:09.63)
But I really believe that God will do something really great with that. Because people getting together, Christians want to be together and work together. That's a huge step here. So just with that, I'm sure it's gonna bring us somewhere really nice.
Rob Chartrand (45:26.678)
Yeah. You know, the rumor out there was that in Quebec, it's really hard to plant. It's like scorched earth because of its history with the quiet revolution, because of secularism that's just so daunting. But I'm starting to hear all these stories about what God is now doing in Quebec with church plants taking off and whatnot. What do you think about that? Is God done with Quebec?
Maxime C (45:38.75)
Yep.
Rob Chartrand (45:53.078)
Is there lots to celebrate? What's got up to in Quebec lately?
Maxime C (45:59.454)
Well, actually, last week, I was in the church where they celebrate two baptisms. So there's always something to celebrate. God's still working, that's for sure. I think we're about to see something happen because we can feel like the earth is trembling, right? But we don't know what's going to happen. I don't know how it's going to look like and everything. But I'm pretty sure that...
Rob Chartrand (46:08.086)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (46:18.709)
Mm. Mm.
Maxime C (46:29.566)
God is not done with Quebec. He has a nation there, He has other creation there. He has His own people there. He wants to call them to Him. And He's still working. Yeah. That gives me a lot of hope.
Rob Chartrand (46:46.038)
Amen.
Yeah, yeah. I see there your microphones in the background there. You do a podcast. Tell us about that. Tell us really quick. What's this podcast that you've been chipping away at?
Maxime C (47:00.574)
Yeah, well, I did a podcast with a couple of friends and a couple of leaders here in Quebec because we don't like English people. And no, that's not true. No, no, actually, it's just a lot of workers here don't speak English, don't read English. And there's so much thing to learn in English and everything, but they don't have the capacity to do it.
Rob Chartrand (47:15.35)
Ha ha.
Rob Chartrand (47:29.782)
Okay.
Maxime C (47:29.822)
So I'm trying to have some people with some experience on the field and in the books and bring them to it in front of a mic and speak in French to the workers and try to equip them to give them tools and where they can found translating maybe a translator book or something like that. But we want to equip the worker on the field. And we really have a problem in the French area because...
Rob Chartrand (47:54.678)
Hmm.
Maxime C (47:59.166)
A lot of people don't speak English. So what we really want to do is to fill that gap and try to help those people there and have the great resources that we might understand because we are buying well, not me, I try, I do my best, but a lot of people, a lot of people doing well in this and bring it back to the French and try to say, okay, well, you might not understand everything when you try to go on a website or a...
Rob Chartrand (48:15.894)
You're doing pretty good.
Maxime C (48:29.214)
or something who's been doing in London or something like that. But here what we, can we, here's what we can, that's a pretty hard sentence, right? Well, we just want to help them and give them tools, equip them and just trying to help them on the field. Because they need that information, right? We have to do something.
Rob Chartrand (48:52.086)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Well, that's brilliant. I mean, again, innovation. You're taking these amazing, you know, you have a language barrier, so you're making accessible these incredible resources that are in English, which they would never have access to, and you're bringing people on to translate or to teach them to your audience. And so is it mostly like ministry leaders that you're trying to reach with your podcast?
Maxime C (49:23.038)
Just workers, not church workers, because church members too, because there's a lot of good stuff in there. But we talked a couple of months ago on how to be a catalyst for church planting. And after that, we've been talking about how can we engage the young people, the kids in our church in the celebration to get
Rob Chartrand (49:25.046)
Workers, okay, church workers. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (49:41.846)
Okay, yeah.
Maxime C (49:52.35)
them involve and do something with that. So we have a lot of stage of learning and we try to reach the member as well as the leader, the pastor and probably the leader of the denomination too.
Rob Chartrand (50:09.622)
Yeah. Yeah. So what's the name of the podcast?
Maxime C (50:14.27)
It's Les Ouvriers de la Francophonie.
Rob Chartrand (50:17.526)
okay. Yeah. Yeah. I got all that. No, it sounded like a French restaurant, man. Well, let's put it, we'll put it in the show notes. Yeah.
Maxime C (50:20.35)
Yeah? Good, great. So I have a new follower.
Yeah, well, we don't eat
Yeah, but in English it said it's a it's just French area worker
Rob Chartrand (50:36.182)
Okay, okay, I got that. Yeah, yeah. man, well, good on you. As you know, doing a podcast is a labor in love. It's a lot of work, but if you keep at it, it's gonna help more and more people.
Maxime C (50:37.694)
Yeah, it sounds better like that, right?
Maxime C (50:54.878)
We keep that really simple so we don't have to do a lot of things around. But yeah, we just speak out loud and give some tools. So that's a great begin.
Rob Chartrand (51:07.254)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, hey, I wonder if in our final moments together, if you could give a final word of encouragement to our ministry leaders who are listening today.
Maxime C (51:20.286)
Well, keep going guys. It's a tough work, but it's an almighty work. And we have such an almighty God and He's still working. And even where we don't see Him or we don't hear Him, He's still working. We have the book of Esther in the Bible and God was not named...
of the old book, right? But he's still working. He saved Israel at the end of the book. So even if you don't see, God is working. He's doing something. He's preparing something. Just be faithful. Go on and don't quit. Well, watch out your life, watch out your health and everything. Don't burn yourself because you won't do the...
Rob Chartrand (52:15.094)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Maxime C (52:18.366)
the race until the end. But God is there. And even if it doesn't show, like you could be in a dark place for many, many years, but you're the little light in that darkness and God is with you. And some one, some day you're going to meet someone and it's going to be two light. And then you're going to be three light. And then you're going to light the old
the old city, still working to have faith and go on.
Rob Chartrand (52:54.23)
Yeah, good word, good word. Maxime, thank you for joining us on Church in the North. Thanks for that word of encouragement. This has been Rich.
Maxime C (53:04.606)
Yeah, well, I really appreciate the invitation and sorry for you here.
Rob Chartrand (53:10.038)
We will keep checking in to see how things are going over there in Quebec. Yeah, I'm excited to hear about the new plant.
Maxime C (53:14.782)
I'll keep you both for sure.
Maxime C (53:19.326)
So the next podcast we will do online in French. Are you?
Rob Chartrand (53:23.35)
Okay. oui. Je ne parle pas le français.
Maxime C (53:30.59)
too bad for you. That's such a great language. It's a language of love.
Rob Chartrand (53:32.854)
Yeah. Yeah, I know it's my father. He never passed it on yet. Sorry. It's the international language of love. That's what I heard. Yeah. All right. God bless you, man.
Maxime C (53:41.694)
It's what I heard. I don't know if it's true, but it's what I heard.
Thanks, you too.