Rob Chartrand (00:01.359)
Well, hey, we are delighted to invite to the show Dr. Keith Taylor. He is the former lead pastor of Beulah Alliance Church. He did a short stint as the national president of our Christian Missionary Alliance denomination that I'm part of. And he's entering into a new season of ministry at this time. So Keith, I just want to say welcome. It's so good to have you here on the Church in the North podcast.
Keith Taylor (00:27.182)
Thanks, Rob. It's great to be with you.
Rob Chartrand (00:30.695)
Listen, you've had a long career in pastoral ministry. I think your most recent stint was 30 years plus or was it 30 years on the nose? As the lead pastor of Beulah Alliance Church in Edmonton. But I'd love to for our listeners to kind of have a little bit of a background of your pastoral ministry topography, all the things that you've been involved in churches and whatnot over the years. So why don't we start there? Why don't you
uh, pastoral ministry up until your final years in Beulah.
Keith Taylor (01:05.438)
Well Rob, everyone's story is unique and it's written as it happens. Often not what we expect, but what happens. I started off pastoral ministry, got hired as an assistant pastor in Vernon Alliance, which is in the beautiful Okanagan, BC. I was surprised for first ministry. I landed a gig in the Okanagan, not in some, you know, like I heard that the denomination wanted me to go to northern BC and I discovered that after Vernon had hired me. But I got there.
About a year later became the lead pastor. The lead pastor left. They asked me to fill in. I ended up staying for 11 years and had a wonderful run there. We saw God renew a broken church, bring some great momentum, some great things happened. Then I got shoulder tapped whether I would consider coming back to Edmonton to Beulah Alliance. And it was a big geographical move. It was a different church. And thirdly, it was also my home church and I had all the reasons not to go back.
but when you feel the divine tap, you go, I think God's in this. So we moved back to Edmonton, thinking we'll see what happens. I told my wife, when a guy goes back to his hometown, who knows if it's gonna work. Maybe he'll be here for a couple of years, maybe a transition thing. Never dreaming it'd be a 30 year run.
Rob Chartrand (02:22.887)
Wow, yeah. And I mean, so that's two churches, 30 years at Biula, and what was it in Vernon, like seven years around, or 11 years, okay, so 41 years in ministry. How old were you when you started at Vernon?
Keith Taylor (02:29.75)
But 11, yeah, almost a decade.
Keith Taylor (02:36.794)
Er, early 20s. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (02:38.115)
Wow. Okay, so stepping into a lead pastor role in an established church at the age in your 20s. I mean, so prior to that you went to Canadian Bible College, I think in Regina, and then stepped right into it. Wow, what a challenge. You know, your role at Bula, now our listeners might not know this, but I worked with you at Bula. So I mean, cards on the table. We had, I had four great years at Bula. Some of my
Keith Taylor (02:51.458)
That's right. Yep.
Rob Chartrand (03:06.039)
most memorable years in pastoral ministry. It's just a great time working there as a senior associate at your right hand just working with you and learning so much from you. Bula has just had an incredible impact in its like 100-year history of you know of church planting, raising up and deploying leaders, multiplication and all of that. I mean I wonder if you could just share with us a little bit about Bula and its impact.
And I mean, it actually preceded the district, it preceded the denomination. It was there in Edmonton before all of this denominational work was really started. So give us a little bit of an overview of the work of Bula in its 100 year history.
Keith Taylor (03:52.514)
You know, Rob, it's truly amazing to see a church that has a 100 plus year story, that today hasn't just lived a life cycle, grow, thrived, and then declined and died. Here's a church today that's still over 3,000 people on a weekend. There's been anointing on the church, but if I go back to the founding DNA, it's a fascinating story. Think of Edmonton as a wild west town. It's growing rapidly. Settlers, fur traders, loggers, people are...
immigrating to come to Edmonton. There was a small rescue mission actually serving unwed mothers called Bula Mission and they felt the movement of God, they should call a pastor and find or found a little church and they called a minister named John Woodward. John was a he was trained to be a missionary so he came to Edmonton with a missional mindset not simply to come and
to reach Western Canada for Christ. And out of that came innovation, deep sacrifice, deep commitment, devotion to God. In his first five years, they started, they set up evangelists by dog team, by horseback. They started tent meetings. They started up a training institute. And I see the things that we often talk about in terms of innovation. I was going way back then, they were an innovative group.
Rob Chartrand (05:08.125)
Wow.
Keith Taylor (05:17.99)
And so, Beulah grew rapidly. They had the first radio station in Edmonton that they broadcast out across the province. They planted churches across the province and into other places in Western Canada. It was an exciting story. And then you see as each, I would also say church that faced opposition struggle, the depression, they had to pull things in. It was like, it was their COVID moment in terms of crisis for the church.
You can imagine the incredible restraint as the economy collapsed during the early 30s, and yet they came through it and continued on through successive decades, and I'm gonna say successive generations. During my time, the church was reaching, I'll call it the boomer generation, and so the church continued to reach out in evangelism and really drawing people into a deep walk with Christ and wanting to be an influence for good.
But that DNA of the founder really characterized Bula over the decades.
Rob Chartrand (06:19.567)
Yeah, yeah. So what was the challenge? I mean you get that church to a certain size and it seems to be going so well and I mean it can almost seem pretty easy to just go on autopilot and just go with what you've done and whatnot but I mean during your time there you probably had to work pretty hard at keeping that missional DNA going and also just discovering different ways that God was
working out that DNA in the life of your congregation. Tell me a little bit about that. How did you keep it going and what did that look like during some of your time there?
Keith Taylor (06:56.678)
I didn't know this John Woodward story when I came, but I had seen the church in its desire to reach people for Christ and that expressed itself even in mission. But I'd say that there was a burning sense in my heart that as long as there was one person who did not know Christ, that the church must continue to reach out, that our philosophy is that we don't exist for ourselves. We exist to honor God, glorify him, but we also exist that
to fulfill extending that knowledge of God to the ends of our city and to the ends of our world. So that compelling sense, as long as there's one person who does not yet know Christ, we must continue to reach out. I think that characterized our vision that we would continue to build the believer, disciple them deep in Christ, but also to have an outward focus to be able to make Jesus famous in our city, in our country, in the world.
Rob Chartrand (07:54.275)
Yeah, well, I mean, and that certainly has continued even to today with Bula's vision to reach the city of Edmonton, to plant new campuses in different expressions of the gospel. And I mean, certainly with Crosspoint Church, which I launched out of Bula, I mean, as a testimony to that, one of Bula's many, something like 80 different churches can trace their lineage to Bula. Is that correct?
Keith Taylor (08:21.783)
I'm not sure the exact count because daughter churches, granddaughters, that's right, or just influence, where somebody said, hey, I came to Christ through Biola and I get stories of people saying Biola had an influence in our church and the community, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (08:23.695)
daughter churches, granddaughter churches.
Rob Chartrand (08:28.908)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (08:38.615)
Yeah, yeah, and of course not just in Edmonton but in other cities and to the ends of the earth the work that God has been doing so Uh, thanks be to God for all the work that he has done and continues to do Um, keith 30 years is a long time to be in one church. Um, let alone in ministry um and of course resiliency studies are showing us that uh 50 percent of pastors drop off in the first five years. Um
that 90% of pastors don't make it to retirement, that they maybe have a career change, and there's lots of reasons for that. Burnout, dropout, failure, just the call of God calling them into something else. But you were there for 30 years. I mean, that's a long time to be in a church, let alone pastoral ministry. And I wonder if you could share a little bit about that with us.
I think we're gonna have a lot of younger listeners, a lot of younger pastors on the podcast listening in. And I wonder if you could share with them, what are some of the things that you have done in your time to just carry on, to have that grit, to build that resiliency and to keep climbing that next hill, as I've often heard you say.
Keith Taylor (10:02.698)
You know, Rob, I'm not sure everyone's called to stay in the same church for 30 years. I think God's calling for each of us is unique. But, but remember hearing a fellow make the comment, I think it was Rick Warner, someone who said, the why always produces the how long. And that, that when you get your motive and the driving force, what's that inner compulsion, when you have that center, it really gives you that endurance. It's like the
Olympic athlete who says I'm going to go for the gold. They're willing to go through incredible hardship in order to accomplish that. And so I think that in the early years of ministry, I had to do that wrestling with what's my why, why am I doing this? Uh, what's the calling I have? What, why does this matter? And, uh, what's the outcome of, of this kind of work? And, and as I watched people's lives being transformed, people being released, seeing the church working well.
that it inspired me, you might say, to say, let's stay at it and stay in the game. So I think that's at a macro level. At a personal level for the long haul, I've looked back, you might say at this point of life, I'm actually reviewing the things in past and you'll often learn the lessons in reverse. You weren't so smart at the time. You maybe stumbled into it. But I see one thing is, I would say to young leaders, know yourself.
Rob Chartrand (11:19.795)
So true.
Keith Taylor (11:27.826)
Understand how God has made you. Be self-aware. Not self-absorbed, but self-aware. Find your sweet spot. What are the giftings, the personality, the talent that's uniquely who God's made you be? And then work on those strengths. Work in those strength areas. Work in the areas of your passion and make that a dominant focus of your life. And I think that's just a really key thing. I did a lot of
thought for a reflection of how God had wired me for ministry. That's impractical things. Be a lifelong learner, replenish along the way. Leadership, theology, pastoral skills. At strategic points throughout my 40 years, I went back with intentional learning experiences. I think I was in almost 20 years and I went back and did a doctorate. Why? Not because of the degree, but because the discipline of learning to refresh.
Who do you have for coaches and advisors? I remember phoning up pastors and saying, hey, could we just have a lunch together? People I looked up to respected. I joined some networks of other key leaders because when I was in, especially my first 10 years, Verna was really isolated. There was no Coca-Cola highway. The most closest major center was six hours away. And a lot of the peers I hung around with in the local community had gone there to retire, you might say.
that they weren't wanting to see a thriving church. So it took discipline to reach out and build those networks. And I've grown significantly, and it's been huge to have those people around me throughout the decades, those pastoral relationships. And another one would be as recreation. I think also staying power is, I'm a whole person.
And so I looked for those things would also replenish me personally. And I talked to some pastors say, what are you doing outside of ministry? And some shrugged their shoulders. Say, there's no time. You got to make time. Even as a pastor of a large church, I found some things that I could do that were just replenishing a distraction. You might say it just kind of something that I could just do. That was good for me. And yeah.
Rob Chartrand (13:42.651)
Well, and let me jump in on that. I think most listeners don't know how much of a car enthusiast you are. I mean, when I was working there, you always had a line on a car that you were gonna buy, fix it up, and then just flip it for somebody else. And not that the money was used, it was just sheer enjoyment. Like you're like the Sheshire Cat every time you got a new car in your hands that you were working on.
Keith Taylor (13:48.718)
Hehehe
Keith Taylor (14:09.046)
Yeah, they were never new, but I felt like I took in strays and then placed them at a good home. And often it was my pastoral buddies or friends that I'd stumble onto something on my day off, take a couple hours to work on it. It was never a major time thing, but it was just good for me to have that con. I did some sailing, I did other things as well.
Rob Chartrand (14:12.964)
Yes, new to you.
Rob Chartrand (14:29.316)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (14:34.838)
One other thing, Rob, because I was reflecting on this question, what keeps us in the game in the long haul? And I was thinking the hardest person to lead was me. And I was reading Ruth Haley Barton, she said, we got to pay attention to what's going on in our own soul. And a lot of us believe in the early days, it's our gift skills, competencies, our training, that are the people are looking for. And they're important.
But I actually think the thing they first look for is the leader, your personal transforming self. Just who are you following Jesus? And they're watching the transforming, changing work of the glory of God in our lives.
but it's so important to steward our own journey toward wholeness as people, as followers, as leaders. And she pointed something out. She said, if there's something dysfunctional or untransformed within us, it'll find its way to the edges of our organization. It'll eventually affect everything. In other words, our brokenness breaks things. And I was looking back and I thought, I had some wise counselors who said,
Rob Chartrand (15:26.459)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (15:44.071)
Mm-hmm.
Keith Taylor (15:50.667)
Keith, if you're gonna thrive at long haul.
you know, it's about your wholeness, your walk with Christ, it's your growing as a person, but it's also even dealing with some brokenness. So I want to be transparent. There were times where I got counsel and said, there's some anger issues or I got some workaholic tendencies. What's driving that? What's behind that? And I would say I did some hard work in my inner life, which I think established some stability for a longer serve. Does that make sense?
Rob Chartrand (16:09.298)
Yep.
Rob Chartrand (16:22.223)
Yeah, oh absolutely. I remember when I was first launching Crosspoint and went through a lot of church planting, training in cohorts and in conversations with people. But the one thing they repeated again and again is if there are tiny cracks in your life that haven't been addressed, the pressure of ministry, particularly in planting a church, it's just so intense. The pressure will turn those into fissures and then they'll become caverns and canyons and they'll shipwreck your life. So...
You can't ignore those, you know, the shadow side of ministry. We've heard that, right? You can't ignore those shadows, otherwise they'll wreck your ministry if they go unattended over a period of time. Yeah.
Keith Taylor (17:04.17)
Yeah, absolutely. Well put. And here's a real practical one. It's develop thicker skin. We serve a faithful God among a fallen people who are being redeemed. And and I just I've prayed for four decades now. Jesus, manifest your love in my heart. Give me give me grace with others that same grace I need. Give me forgiveness.
Rob Chartrand (17:11.372)
Right.
Keith Taylor (17:31.35)
that I can forgive others, give me patience, that I can be patient with me so I can be patient with others. But just recognizing that, God's perfect people aren't. And so I just go, Jesus, give me a stubborn love. And that's been a good gift.
Rob Chartrand (17:53.787)
Yeah, well, you know, you think of what we've just gone through with COVID and the polarization and just nobody being happy during the time of COVID. I think leaders that if you didn't have thick skin during that time, you certainly built calluses by the end because of just the mudslinging that was going on within Christendom as a result of the pressure of COVID.
Keith Taylor (18:18.582)
Yes, absolutely. And I can say over four decades, it was never that all the gauges were always up and to the right. We had times of crisis, dark night of the soul, great losses, betrayals, almost all the things that people who are in ministry will experience. But in the verse that really caught me was 2 Corinthians 4.16, it says, therefore we do not lose heart.
Rob Chartrand (18:29.959)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:45.04)
Right, yeah.
Keith Taylor (18:45.438)
outwardly we're wasting away, and literally we're being renewed day by day. And I was thinking, I talked to pastors sometimes if I was to summarize, it just sounds like they're losing heart. And so my prayer is that we can have those kinds of things in our life, the people, the routines, the disciplines that replenish our heart. And it might even just be time away just to replenish the heart.
I had one friend who stepped away from full-time ministry into a secular role for a couple of years, and I think for him that was his replenishment season. Then he went back into a ministry with even greater impact. And so his stepping out wasn't a fail, it was a time of reflection, renewal, replenishment for him. So we've got to be careful who's scripting us, that we're listening to the Holy Spirit and not culture, even within the Church.
Rob Chartrand (19:36.453)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, you know, I even want to go back to that first point you made, Keith, when you were talking about Rick Warren and finding the why in ministry. Do you think sometimes, I think especially now when the idea of leading a big church or, you know, having a great platform can make us lose sight of the why? And that when you lose sight of the why, that's where things kind of, while they go awry, things fall apart.
Have you ever been tempted to find your sense of identity and a different why than say the call of God and the gospel in Jesus?
Keith Taylor (20:22.214)
I was sitting one day with a group of pastors and one of the fellows, they were all pastors of larger congregations. And one of the guys made the comment, he said, he had been in a social setting. He says, I committed myself not to tell people how large my church was.
because he said, then it becomes all about me and size and ego. And I thought, wow, that's an easy trap to fall into. And I felt corrected by it. I was saying, Lord, is my identity and the size of the work, or is my identity and security in who you are and that you're just graciously working through my life? But I think we can be tempted that way, that we measure ourselves by whether the grass are going up or down, and rather than just, first of all, anchor ourselves
Rob Chartrand (20:41.328)
Yeah, yeah.
Keith Taylor (21:08.252)
in Christ to who I am and what He's called me to do and be.
Rob Chartrand (21:12.943)
Yeah, because I mean you might be called to close a church. Right? Here you're not, not to renew it, but to actually close it. And would you be faithful to Jesus in that work where, so that he can do a new work, and maybe he wants to see a congregation.
you know, dissolve and reform something new. And is your identity okay with that, I guess?
Keith Taylor (21:39.646)
Absolutely. And that's where, you know, I can remember talking to a fellow who something had gone sideways and he lost his position. I said, how are you doing? Like it was a rather harsh departure.
And he says, you know, it stung deeply, it hurt deeply, but he goes, I'm still secure in Christ, it's Him I serve. And there'll be a tomorrow and we'll pick back up and move on and we'll process this and that. And I just thought, what a healthy differentiated view, kind of a balcony view of what took place. But he wasn't, it didn't destroy him. I think ministry's harder today.
When I started Pastoral Life, I remember walking to a store and telling someone I was a pastor and she said, Oh, you're missing a button. I said, Oh, that's my pocket. She said, well here, take your jacket off and I'll sew the button back on.
And I thought, oh my gosh, this is weird. And then somebody else said, hey, do you get free golf because pastors get free golf at the local golf course? I didn't play golf, but I thought, what's with that? I didn't know pastors got benefits. And they were telling me all these sweet deals. I thought, turn the clock forward, you know, almost 50 years and you find out that you tell people you're a pastor and often it brings silence to a conversation. And so I just say, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (22:54.703)
That's right. You're not the cool kid at any party.
Keith Taylor (22:58.346)
No, so things have definitely changed that front. That has to have an effect that you're working in the midst of, to some degree, some antagonism within culture. It's like the apostle Paul. There were some towns that he showed up and they were not happy to have him there.
Rob Chartrand (23:14.639)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so rather than being the key power in Christendom, you are now a believer in exile, really. I mean, yeah, nobody really wants, I'm always careful when I'm sitting on an airplane right away, hey, what do you do for a living? I teach. Yeah, as soon as you say pastor, the stereotypes just emerge. Yeah.
Keith Taylor (23:32.534)
It's so true. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (23:43.951)
have to be careful. Well Keith, let's talk a little bit about kind of the final season of ministry. I like to liken pastoral ministry sometimes to a football game with four quarters. If you were to do about 40 years, which you have, I mean 41 actually if I do the math correctly. I'd like to talk to our listeners about the fourth quarter and of course in any football game
that fourth quarter or even in basketball is so important unless of course you're getting slaughtered and then there's no coming back then fourth quarter doesn't matter. But let's say the metaphor works. Let's talk about the fourth quarter of ministry. What do you think some of our mature pastors should be prioritizing in the fourth quarter of ministry? Like in those final 10 years, is there anything you're glad that you did or anything you have regrets about for that final quarter?
Keith Taylor (24:39.322)
You know, one comment I make is I often think we talk a lot about the beginnings of ministry. I think it's also important to talk about the endings of ministry. What's it mean to be intentional about the landing? So probably 10 years out, I was already beginning to think about, okay, what's it going to look like these next 10 years? So I just go mark time. Be intentional about it. Don't stop learning. Don't stop.
leading. Don't coast. That was one of the things that struck me as I talked to leaders. They said, don't coast. So a few things that again, looking back that were important to me, monitor your inner voice. God, what are you saying about transition? What kinds of contribution can I make to the kingdom in this next season of life? Many have said that you've got the constellation of years of experience, of integrated learning.
Rob Chartrand (25:12.901)
Mm.
Keith Taylor (25:34.358)
that you have a lot to offer. So the question is, what would that look like? And I've had friends do all kinds of either serving longer, like when I said their fourth quarter went into their seventies and eighties, others changed roles at a strategic time. I had one friend who, you know what?
late 50s went into a denominational leadership as a superintendent or as a or as a adjudicator of some role or a professor in a college, start dreaming what might what might God be saying to you during this season of my time and life in ministry. Another one is make room for the next generation. It struck me that
The greatest joy I have today is not what I see God do in me. Rob, it's what I see God doing in you and others that worked alongside that I see God working strong in your lives. And I'm so thankful for the time we worked together. And so I'd say to pastors, make room for the next generation. Prepare the other leaders around you and your church for life beyond you. Lift up that next generation, give them opportunity.
invite them to exercise influence, presence, encouragement. Let them do more of what you've been doing and get satisfaction and be able to come alongside and coach them knowing that they're gonna step on your shoulders one day. Another one is to manage your health. This is really practical, but.
Rob Chartrand (26:59.855)
Great. Yeah.
Keith Taylor (27:02.082)
I think that I wanted to be intentional, that I wanted to be able to serve right through to when the Lord would have me making a transition, that I would stay healthy, because I had met pastors who, it just seemed like in the last quarter, their health went in this, and some of it is unavoidable, some issues hit you health-wise, but the question is, diet, exercise, just taking care of your person, taking care of your soul.
One of my goals was I want to be kind of like a Caleb kind of guy. Lord, I'm still thriving. I'm ready for the next hill. Well, what are the disciplines I need in my life to make that true? Let me share another one, and that is I recognized in the last quarter I probably needed some breaks. You can't run like in your 30s.
Rob Chartrand (27:48.304)
Mm-hmm.
Keith Taylor (27:50.81)
and I'm mentoring some young pastors right now and two or three of the guys said, hey, our pastor's on a sabbatical or he's on a longer summer break. And each of them say, and I'm getting a chance to preach and to lead and to do stuff and try stuff. And they're so excited. And I was thinking the pastor's probably away thinking, oh, the church is missing me. Less than you think. The young leaders, the young leaders are they're thrilled that you're trusting them.
Rob Chartrand (28:12.292)
It's true.
Keith Taylor (28:17.766)
And I just go, so get replenished, have your time off. But for these new young leaders, give them space to move. And recognize again, and you alluded to before, Rob, your identity is in Christ, not the role you serve in. And I had a...
I had a pastor's wife one time say, you know, I'm glad my husband kept serving in a part-time role in a church because he had no identity but as pastor. And I thought, well, I love the calling of pastor, but my identity is far more complex and wider and varied. And when I stepped away from Buell, I stepped away from Buell a little did I expect that a few months later.
Rob Chartrand (28:49.88)
Mm-hmm.
Keith Taylor (29:08.702)
I get a shoulder tap, hey, could you fill in? We've got a gap before an elected role to be the president. So I think I had just been praying, Jesus, I'm open-handed. What do you got for me? I don't know what you have next. And then I get a call, hey, would you come and be president? Never dreamt I'd be in that role, but I had a blast. Loved the people I served with. So I go, keep praying those open-handed prayers during this last quarter.
Rob Chartrand (29:33.695)
that's great advice. You know Keith I find like I'm 51 now so I'm getting into that last quarter and yeah I need more rest. Like my body's different. You know you get injured more easily. You can't you think differently. Your brain is crystallized is that I think the appropriate term. There's a different so your brain functions differently. Your
your eyesight changes, like there's so much to changes in that last bit of life. And so you really have to re-strategize how you navigate leadership and how you do it well. I mean, just before we had the podcast recording today, I'm like, you know, I want to be fresh for this podcast. I'm going to go take a 25 minute nap. And so I went and put my feet up and I had a little nap so that I'm raring to go. But yeah, diet, staying physically active, all those things are.
Keith Taylor (30:20.846)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Rob Chartrand (30:31.888)
We just can't assume that you can keep going at the same pace in this next, this season of life as you can, as you say, in your 30s or in your 20s.
Keith Taylor (30:41.854)
You know, Rob, I was thinking that in the last quarter, I think it was Bob Buford who wrote that book, you know, about the second half going from success to significance. And so I was, I was processing that. And one of the scriptural themes that came to me through that was, I want the, the love aspect of my life to increase during this time.
in terms of loving people, loving the lost, loving my neighbor, being known as a person who reflects the love of Christ. Because I look at the Apostle Paul, when you read what he writes toward the end of his ministry, you find him affirming so many of his co-workers. And you see this sort of a gentler, kinder Paul that's processing things deeply. And I go, I think that's part of the journey we're on. And I just say to a lot of pastors in the last decade of minister
Rob Chartrand (31:21.883)
Mm-hmm.
Keith Taylor (31:35.604)
you know, start phoning on pastors, start having lunch and coffee with them. How are you doing? How can I encourage you? How's it going? And loving people. And I think if you do that, there'll always be a demand for you. Ministry won't stop, you know.
Rob Chartrand (31:41.415)
That's right.
Rob Chartrand (31:53.595)
That's right. Yeah. So you move from a season of when you're younger, I think it's much more I think Buford talks about this is about accomplishment. What can I accomplish and that makes sense the way you're designed at that season of life. God has given you this energy and vitality. That's great. But in the latter season it moves from accomplishment to legacy and it's about how can I pour into those who have come after me and you know, enrich their ministries in their lives.
Keith Taylor (32:20.682)
Yes, absolutely. And that thinking about legacy is so essential. So I just don't want to think of the last 10 years of pastoral life or ministry life as being, I'm just winding down now. I go, I think we need to have the same kind of intentionality. It's just going to be different, but let's stay fully engaged and make them the best years.
Rob Chartrand (32:35.365)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (32:47.267)
Yeah, well, hey, let's talk about what you're doing now then. It's been said that when you retire, you're twice as busy as you were when you were actually not retired. And you're doing some great things right now, like great opportunities to work with some leaders and whatnot. So tell us a little bit about that. What are you, how are you spending your retirement days now? At least retirement from Bula. Let's just call it, yeah, the fifth quarter, as it were.
Keith Taylor (33:16.59)
Rob, I haven't shared this too widely, but one of the surprises that was fully unexpected, my wife and I had enjoyed great health and thriving, wonderful relationship. But three weeks after I finished at Bula, my wife was diagnosed with early onset dementia, like early Alzheimer's. And I think that Jesus really is, I really went and sought after him.
Rob Chartrand (33:36.035)
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (33:45.082)
asking, you know, what now Lord? I feel like the Lord was saying to me, you know, you serve the many with an outward face. Kind of like Henry now, and I want you to serve your wife and turn inward to the home and really give her your attention.
Rob Chartrand (33:52.655)
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (34:00.754)
And so top of my priority is wanting to make this time. So these last couple of years of high priority for us has been time together, visiting our kids or grandchildren, or update seven grandkids. But we're probably wanting to do many of the things that retirees fight to over 20 years. We're having to collapse that. And that's a complete role reversal for me. I've gone from.
Rob Chartrand (34:21.019)
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (34:26.458)
much of my role outside the home to now having to basically support everything in the home. And that's a huge change. So our personal life is different. And yet, we're as close as ever in enjoying the time that we have. In terms of ministry, doing some mentoring, some coaching, being an encourager to young pastors however I can, doing some itinerant preaching as opportunities are afforded.
providing some, you might call it some advisory of some emerging young leaders and coming alongside of them. There's just a variety of things. One observation I've had is I've talked to other fellows that are and gals that are in this season of life is in some ways people don't know what we can offer.
And I think it's important just to reach out and communicate to people, how can I serve? How can I benefit you? And so that's what I've been doing as well. And also because we're still in Edmonton, actually attending Bula, wanting to be encouragement to my successor, Daniel Im. So I do some preaching at Bula as well. But also the congregation for many of them, I was their pastor for 30 years. I'm still their pastor, but from a sense of shepherd.
Rob Chartrand (35:24.503)
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (35:44.564)
And so at times I come along funerals or weddings and things where I can minister to the church family. And that's been a good thing. And then doing it very intentionally that it supports Daniel and his leadership because he's my pastor right now. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (35:56.539)
Right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (36:00.407)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thanks for your transparency, Keith, about the home life there. And I think that's important for people to know and understand that pastors have families and pastors have personal lives. And what I've appreciated about you over the years in working with you and knowing you is the, just modeling that principle that family is first. Ministry can get really busy and there's lots of things.
that we can be involved in, but for you, families first. So thanks for modeling that, and again, thanks for sharing that with us. You know, on the ministry side of things, it's been great to watch you and Daniel from afar manage the secession plan. Not a lot of churches have that opportunity, but...
Daniel joined your team, I mean he was on your team for a number of years and then he went down south to the states and then he came back with part of an intentional secession strategy. It was over three years, is that correct?
Keith Taylor (37:08.422)
But I think just over two. Yeah, about 24 months, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (37:10.171)
Just over two, okay. Yeah, I mean, we could spend a lot of time even just walking through how you guys manage that and how you did it. Maybe get both of you and Daniel on sometime to talk about that. But it's great to see that you still attend Biula. And as you've just said, that you are very intentional about being very clear. Daniel's the pastor and he's your pastor as well.
but you still can come alongside and there's no threat in that and you guys' relationship as well. How have you guys managed to do that? Put you on the spot a little bit here with that question, but I mean, that's a tricky thing to do after 30 years.
Keith Taylor (37:59.263)
Again, I think it takes intentionality to be willing to say, I had my time as the lead pastor and all that came with that.
and part of the succession journey is passing the mantle to the next pastor. Daniel won't do everything the way I would have done it. He has different gifts and abilities, but I recognize the anointing that God has on his life and calling. So I need to be very intentional that I stay in my lane now during this time, but yet we have a good friendship. And so we'll do lunch together, talk together. I think there's openness and
And if he's got a question, I'm always open to listen, to dialogue with him. So I think it's just being very, very intentional. Not everybody can do that. I think for some, they just go, I think I need to be away from the church. We purposely, during the eight months that I was serving the denomination, we were very, very low profile at Biula. The demands of my role, of course, took me elsewhere and working both here and in Toronto.
Rob Chartrand (39:00.792)
Okay.
Keith Taylor (39:07.35)
But I think that was good for Daniel to have even that season where just where I'm, I'll say one other thing. In the early days, I wanted to show my encouragement by sitting in the second or third row. And what I noticed is I'd look around and I think people were looking at him and looking at me, looking at him like, what is he thinking? And so we kind of just relocate ourselves closer to the back. Because I thought, I don't want to be a distraction. And yet, although I may be sitting back there, often after service, we're talking, praying.
Rob Chartrand (39:10.092)
Oh yeah.
Rob Chartrand (39:23.803)
right.
Keith Taylor (39:37.078)
you know, counseling with people that come and talk with us. And so we still want to be demonstrating, you know, the heart of care for people, but very supportive of pastors. So I think the word I think of is just intentionality.
Rob Chartrand (39:54.115)
Well, I'd love to just take a moment and draw on your experience, Keith, and just to, as you think about the church in Canada, I mean, and this is a very broad topic, but I mean, part of the reason why we do this podcast is we are concerned about ministry leaders in Canada and we want to hear their stories and care for them and share from other leaders across the country. But
I think all of us have our eyes on the future of the Church in Canada and what that's going to look like. I wonder if you could share with us, I mean, is there anything that you could share that you're hopeful about the Church in Canada and then maybe what you're concerned about with the Church in Canada?
Keith Taylor (40:38.082)
I'm hopeful as I've had opportunity to come alongside of a cluster of, you know, probably a dozen emerging young pastors in their 20s, 30s and 40s. I'm very hopeful when I see the character, the passion, the discernment of this next group of leaders. I don't come away from those meetings going, oh man, we're in trouble. I come away going, wow, God is raising up a new generation.
they have a greater understanding of culture than I do having grown up in it. In terms of the culture they're pastoring, this generation that they're shepherding. And so I'm hopeful as I see them leaning into scripture, leaning into significant theological discussion, having, rather than leading from memory, they're leading by imagination. What might it look like for this next time?
Rob Chartrand (41:12.775)
Hmm.
Keith Taylor (41:35.89)
I'm hearing them grappling with the questions of, I'll call it the internationalization of Canada's, as the world comes in, the immigration, the mission field is here. Well, what then does that mean for our churches? Or what does it mean in terms of urbanization? We got this movement to the cities and we got to reach them. I'm hearing great innovative conversations about how to do that and how to learn from other global models that we might say, what are we learning there we could bring to here?
that I'm very impressed with the emerging young leaders.
Rob Chartrand (42:06.351)
Mm.
Rob Chartrand (42:09.411)
Yeah. And you are able to work with, you have a cohort that you're kind of leading. Is that correct with Canadian Church Leaders Network and Jason Ballard and their work there?
Keith Taylor (42:20.222)
I like the term leading, coming alongside. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a number of other leaders I'm working with as well. And, but I'm very hopeful as I see these leaders, even watching Daniel taking Biela and seeing the...
Rob Chartrand (42:22.563)
Sure, yeah, okay, yeah, for sure. Specific kind of leader, yeah, coming along, that's great.
Keith Taylor (42:42.819)
his working through deeply, what does it mean for the church to be alive at this time, coming out of COVID in terms of this particular place that we find ourselves today?
Rob Chartrand (42:54.915)
Yeah, yeah. Any concerns you have about the future?
Keith Taylor (43:00.178)
Um.
I think one concern that I have is when you're going through rapidly changing times.
Rob Chartrand (43:10.757)
Mm-hmm.
Keith Taylor (43:10.802)
it would be very easy for the church to become insular, put up its walls and become inwardly focused. So we become almost isolated from the culture and protectionist, and not just protectionist in terms of ourselves, but even the way we do things or our practices, etc. Because this will be our place of safety. Then we lose a sense of mission. The church should be the vital, bright, bright of Christ, but let's not lose that sense that we have the hope of the world in Christ.
people I think today are feeling the lostness of our culture. You hear the crime rates, the drug rates, the tent cities. You can go through the broken things and we can say that Christ is the answer. I think people are beginning to search. I'm praying that the church will not become inward-focused, but it will become upward-focused in terms of vital relationship with Christ, and then outward expressing that love to the world, so that we become the kind of community
Rob Chartrand (44:00.295)
Hmm.
Keith Taylor (44:10.594)
that we couldn't help but draw people to versus an exclusionary congregation that's just fighting the wrong battles.
Rob Chartrand (44:19.547)
Right, yeah, well said, well said. Well, hey, let's...
Rob Chartrand (44:30.071)
Let's go to a final question and this one's probably personal, but we've already kind of talked about it already thus far You know now that you're in this season
Has your identity changed? You're not the lead pastor anymore of Beulah, but you're now in retirement season, but you're still doing ministry. But so much of our identity can get caught up in the work that we do, our identity as pastors. But that day you left your office at Beulah and you walked out the door.
I'm sure you didn't have one box of book in your hands and I'm sure it didn't happen in one day but you know there's probably a final day when you gave in your keys and you left. Did your identity change or how did it change if it did?
Keith Taylor (45:22.57)
That's a really good question. I think the impact was less because we had done succession and we were working through what would it mean for me to decrease and for Daniel to increase in terms of leadership influence. I was doing the processing with the fact that there's going to be a new day when I hand in my keys you might say and so I think that I was prayerfully intentionally
Rob Chartrand (45:31.824)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (45:37.967)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (45:47.323)
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (45:51.502)
processing that. You know Rob, I talked to a lot of guys that had been in ministry in past who were going through that final stage and saying, what was it like? What did you feel? What did you experience? And they actually gave me some great cues. One of them was is that you are going to feel a great sense of loss because so much of your world is in that seven-day routine. That was, you know, of preaching on weekends and all the things of congregational life that changes.
On one hand, there's this relief. Hey, two months in, you're going, oh my goodness, I missed this, you know? And so I think that those things really helped me to process it. And so I think that intentionality, that preparation helped me to journey through. I would say when I stepped away from eight months as a denominational president,
That was like running at a thousand miles an hour for eight months because there was so much and so much complexity, there were things to be done. It culminated in a national conference. And at the very peak of the conference, they elected a new president. I walked out of that meeting and basically said, here's my keys, here's my computer, here's my phone. And I went home that night and I went, wow, I feel like I landed the plane from 40,000 feet. And that was a bit of a shock and awe, I'd have to say that.
Rob Chartrand (47:12.379)
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (47:16.502)
that second succession exactly a year later was actually more significant than the first one. So I would just say to leaders who are listening, pay really attention or pay close attention to that journey of winding up and being done and recognize there is a transition. Now it comes to identity. What I am just so at peace at is that, my identity is so solidly.
Christ with the experiences and the learnings and the things that he has brought to my life I just go Lord open-handed where could I use those? and It just being just being available in the moment and God Hardly a day goes by that someone isn't calling me or I go and have a coffee or all initiated contact with someone and there's this meaningful engagement ministry and so you can enjoy those at the pace you wish and
and still see God working in a powerful way. God has faith on these things.
Rob Chartrand (48:17.719)
Yeah, well I think that, at least for myself, where things get really junked up inside is when so much of your identity as a person is wrapped up in the role of being a pastor. And I mean I've I stepped out of it a year ago into my new role and I
I actually am so thankful again that I was centered in Christ, but there's been seasons along the way where your identity does so much get tied up in what you do and the accomplishment of what you're doing. And you have to be really, really careful to recalibrate and recenter yourself on Jesus. And I know people that they stop being a pastor and their life falls apart because so much of their identity was tied up in that.
Keith Taylor (49:00.398)
Thanks for watching!
Rob Chartrand (49:02.679)
in that role and in the success of that role and it's a dangerous place to be I think in your ministry. And probably everybody knows it, like probably everybody sees it, your wife sees it, your kids see it, you just maybe don't see it until you lose it, right? And then you're kind of left with this sense of emptiness beyond that. So that's...
Keith Taylor (49:18.19)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (49:28.675)
I think it's been helpful that you have built an identity outside of that too, with all the other things that you've been involved in.
Keith Taylor (49:35.178)
Yeah, I agree, Rob, that that's really a temptation. And it still reminds us the fact that the statistics are that a lot of a lot of people in ministry don't finish well or don't land well. And and I think just knowing that information would give us cause for pause and reflect how then do I order my life that I can be replenishing it, renewing it, refreshing it.
Rob Chartrand (49:49.178)
Yeah.
Keith Taylor (50:02.958)
For sure, when the rhythms of pastoral life were taken away, I needed to build new rhythms to cultivate my spirit and heart that had been happening in the context of community with my fellow staff members, various congregational engagements and preaching. And I found that to be something I needed to be very intentional about. And that was a more significant change than I would have thought.
Rob Chartrand (50:19.139)
Yeah, that's right.
Rob Chartrand (50:30.211)
Yeah, yeah, I think it was my father-in-law said to me about pastors. He said, you know, don't be surprised that once you're gone People will forget about you. He said You're valuable, but you're replaceable and if God calls somebody out He'll always bring somebody in and so you just got to be okay with that And so our identity is not so much in the role of being a pastor. It's which is which is
fleeting, it's temporary. I mean you might be in a different church, you might be in a different role in life, but your identity in Christ, that is eternal. To be a child of God, to be a son and daughter of the King, I mean that has an eternal importance and I think that's going to carry you further into retirement than your role of being a pastor.
Keith Taylor (51:20.11)
You know, I was, we joined a new, a mid-size or small group, like a mid-size community, and we went to an event. They had a social event, and it's the kind of community that people can invite their friends, and so it's a mix of people. And at this evening, the guy next to me leans over and he says, who are you? And I told him, and he goes, he kind of shrugged his shoulders, he says, what do you do? And I said, well, I'm retired. What did you used to do? And I was the pastor of a church. Oh, which church?
Rob Chartrand (51:45.795)
Right.
Keith Taylor (51:46.018)
This church, you know, I discovered that half the group had no idea who I was. And I thought, man, I haven't been out that long. But in some ways, I just thought, you know, it's true what you just described. We make our splash, but the pond settles quite quickly. So you've got to be more than that in your identity.
And you know what, let me say the Lord is kind. When we were on vacation down the Okanagan, I was in a hotel checking in and a guy stopped and said, hey, I know you. And then he began to share how a friend had brought him on an arm.
to an Alpha course at Biola and how he had come to know Christ and the change in his marriage and his life and his kids and he was sharing that story. And then he said, I'm now in full-time ministry working with one of the groups that are supporting people in crisis. And he just said, my life will never be the same because of what Christ has done. It's just forever changed. And that conversation just was one of those ones where you go, thank you, Jesus, to be able to be affirmed that yes, if it made a difference for just even that one
Rob Chartrand (52:26.727)
Mm-hmm.
Keith Taylor (52:55.209)
Just imagine the spin-off effect that that's had. But even so much more, it just was like the Lord giving me a gift of reminding me of the significance of just long-term faithful service, just staying in the game.
Rob Chartrand (53:07.695)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think let's leave it with that as an encouragement to our listeners, is to continue on, to press on, to not lose heart, and to fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith as we navigate ministry. Keith, thanks for coming in and sharing with us today. If anyone wants to get in touch with you, maybe they've...
could use your advice or your wisdom or your leadership mentorship or maybe there might be churches out there that might want to enlist your services. How can they do that?
Keith Taylor (53:50.039)
My email is easy to get a hold of me. It's doctaylor.ca. And they're welcome to email me.
Rob Chartrand (53:58.055)
Great, yeah. And we'll make sure we put that in the show notes as well.
Keith Taylor (54:02.558)
Sure. Thanks, Rob. It's sure good to be with you, Rob, see what God's doing in your life. And I look back on our time together and I wish we had time for me to kind of brag on you for the impact you brought and again, the joy and contribution that you brought to Biola and as a co-laborer.
Rob Chartrand (54:04.168)
Awesome.
Rob Chartrand (54:18.979)
Yeah, well thanks Keith and it's been a joy serving with you and of course it's not going to stop. There's lots more that we can do together. So bless you man. Thanks for sharing.
Keith Taylor (54:28.866)
Thanks Rob. Bye bye.