Learning from a Colombian Church Planter with Hernando Munoz
Welcome to Church in the North, a podcast by ministry leaders and for ministry leaders. I'm your host, Rob Chartrand, program coordinator for Christian ministry at Briercrest College, and I'm joined by my co host, Geoff Dresser, associate professor of worship arts. Welcome, Geoff. Hey, Rob. And Kate Brennan, director of YQ.
Rob Chartrand:Good afternoon, Kate.
Kate Brennan:Hello, Rob.
Rob Chartrand:Thanks everyone for jumping in on our conversation today. This is the preshow, and we're gonna get to our guest interview a little bit later on. But, before we dive in, we wanna encourage our listeners that if you like what you hear on our podcast, please please leave us a review or share your comments or hit that subscribe button for more great content from north of the 49th parallel. Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook. And if you have suggestions for topics or guests or even if you have questions, you can email us at anybody anybody podcast at briarcrest.ca.
Rob Chartrand:Yes. That's where we're going. Hey. So, Jeff, it's great to see you in studio today. We're we're we're shooting this, recording this at lunchtime because you are, teaching a class this week at Briarcrest.
Rob Chartrand:What's that all about?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I'm teaching a modular class, so the whole class in 1 week. I'm teaching it's the class is called worship in the Christian tradition. So we do a, a very quick, survey of the entire bible for, from the lens of worship. And then we cover 2000 years of church history.
Geoff Dresser:Wow. All in a week. All in a week. I talk very fast.
Rob Chartrand:That's great. And, our listeners don't know this, but, Jeff is sporting a semi grown beard on his face. This is very new for us. Kate, what do you think of that beard?
Kate Brennan:No comment.
Rob Chartrand:But rumor has it you're trying to get this thing grown in a week. Why is that?
Geoff Dresser:Well, my my wife's away for a couple of weeks. So she's doing some ministry stuff down in the US. So this is my chance, but we FaceTime every night. And every night, she, the verdict is still that thing will be gone by the time I I come back. So so this is my chance.
Geoff Dresser:I'm a little hurt that you said semi grown.
Rob Chartrand:Okay. This might
Geoff Dresser:be as full grown as it gets for me. I I'm not really sure because I'm not happy yet.
Rob Chartrand:Much longer. You you it's looking pretty full.
Geoff Dresser:I mean Well, you well, good save. You're trying to back pound More than I can grow.
Rob Chartrand:That's for sure. But trust me, I cannot grow it. It's my it's in my, my biological heritage that just prevents me from actually growing a lot of facial hair. So, speaking of biological heritage, this week on the podcast, we're gonna be talking to Hernando Munoz, and he's a pastor of a Hispanic congregation in Calgary. And it's gonna be a great listen, and we'll get to that in just a minute.
Rob Chartrand:But I wanna talk about what, god's doing in the world and in Canada through our ethnic churches, and around the world. And just a disclaimer, I mean, when we have this conversation, we're we're a pretty, non visible ethnic group around the table here, with the exception of myself, who's like half First Nations, but doesn't sound obvious when you first look at me. But, yeah. So we're having this conversation in that context. I say you both some light reading yesterday from the Pew Research Center about how people groups are on the move and how Christianity is changing throughout the world.
Rob Chartrand:You guys get a chance to, do a deep dive on those articles I sent you, about 12 hours ago?
Geoff Dresser:Well, I've I've got an excuse. I'm teaching that course on the entire Bible in 2000 years. So so I haven't done a deep dive Okay. On those numbers yet.
Kate Brennan:I had no excuse, but I did read them. So I don't need one.
Kate Brennan:Yes. I don't know if I found it quite as fascinating as maybe you did. Lots of numbers, lots of things I had to look up because I didn't really know what they were trying to tell me.
Geoff Dresser:Oh, yeah.
Kate Brennan:But interesting nonetheless.
Rob Chartrand:Well, how about this? I've got something. Did you know did you know that in the world today, 3.6% of the word world's population are diaspora immigrants? In other words, they are people who are living in a country that is not their own. It's not their country of origin.
Rob Chartrand:So that's more than 280,000,000 people in the world today are on the move. That's pretty fascinating to me.
Kate Brennan:I honestly thought that number was gonna be higher.
Rob Chartrand:Really?
Kate Brennan:I yeah. I don't know. It especially when you just see the 3.6%. I don't know why. I just I feel like it should be more than that.
Kate Brennan:I don't know.
Geoff Dresser:Well, I think in in Canada being a a destination for immigrants around the world, we certainly see we we see those communities and they are joining our churches. And we, yeah, and we just see them around even in, in Moose Jaw is a much more, culturally diverse place than it was, even 20 years ago. And even, there have been huge changes in in Saskatchewan, I know, in the last, you know, several decades in terms of the this influx of of immigrants coming to to make a what they hope is gonna be a better life here in Canada.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. I mean and, and it's interesting. The article points out that, I mean, there are so many different reasons why people make that change. Some of it's work, some of it's religious persecution, some of it's education.
Rob Chartrand:I mean, that's certainly true here in Moose Jaw. We have a number of people coming to, like, Sasquali to go to school. Mhmm. Some of it's to reconnect with family. So so many different reasons.
Rob Chartrand:So what percentage of those people are believers, are Christians? Were you surprised by that number?
Kate Brennan:Well, here in your notes, 47%. And I also I was surprised I don't know. I I guess maybe it's just because I don't think about these things maybe as much as I should, but, I feel like I always assume that the number of Christians is gonna be lower. Mhmm. So I thought that was high, but I don't know.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Because they're coming from different parts of the world, and we would assume that there are different faith, different world religions represented from different parts of the world. But, 47%, which is also fascinating. I mean, because, even here in Moose Jaw, we we see new churches being planted, by, new Canadians, that, are homogeneous, that are that are part of their ethnic group and, popping up here, and, what a great thing that is. I mean and just to even think that, somebody has come from the other part of the world to Canada, which we're supposed to have this rich Christian heritage, and they're planting churches here.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I mean, I think I I was not surprised to see that that high that 47% were Christians, but I wonder if it's because most of the the times when I'm running into new Canadians, it's at church. And so, so many of the the new Canadians that that I meet are Christians and are are very happy to be able to, to maybe worship with greater freedom than they may might have had from the countries that they were that they were coming from.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Is there have you guys seen that affecting, your church, Kate? New Canadians coming there?
Kate Brennan:Yeah. We, we actually had, quite a few families, come over from the Ukraine, in the last 2 years. And, my sister-in-law, does a lot with immigration actually on the East Coast and she used to live and work in Moose Jaw and so my in laws are kind of a part of like welcoming newcomers to Canada and so they've had multiple families stay with them and kind of make that transition when they first arrived here. So, yeah, I've actually had the opportunity to meet quite a few families and then our pastor actually, his wife is Ukrainian and they lived in the Ukraine for many years and church planted and did a bunch of things And so I feel like our church is a great place, obviously, for those people to, come just because there's, like, a little bit of a connection there. And, yeah.
Kate Brennan:So it's it's exciting. They're fun to have in the congregation, and all their kids are cute. So
Rob Chartrand:Well, we, in at, at our church in Moose Jawor Alliance Church, yeah, we've had this last year, year and a half, a whole bunch of Nigerian families come and join us in worship. And then Karen and I, I think I've shared this on the podcast before, but I've just really befriended them and gotten to know them. And we had them over for Christmas. We had them over in the summer. We took them on a tour of a Canadian farm.
Rob Chartrand:We took them out, and, we got pictures in canola fields together and showed them what combines look like and, went gardening and whatnot. We're gonna go for dinner at, one of the family's house this this Sunday night. And it's just been so great. It's just so rich. And and and the faith learning that happens there is is just so rewarding, but, like, the the sharing of faith from different world perspectives has just been tremendous.
Rob Chartrand:Do you know what's also in the stats that, it says, like, the changes that happened between 1910 and 2010, in in terms of what is the center of the world? Anything surprise you about that?
Geoff Dresser:I I mean, I guess the the decline of Christianity or of the church in the western world is, is ever before me, it it seems in, so so I was not surprised. And and to know that the, that the majority of Christians now are not coming from the the the west, the western world as we know it. And we're seeing, yeah, the the energy and the sort of where the church is growing is certainly not, Europe and North America compared to Yeah. Compared to Africa and and South America and other places. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. And and we're gonna post these, articles up on the on the show notes so people have a chance to read them. But, yeah, it's interesting. 1910, 92% of the world's Christians lived in Europe and Americas, and I think that includes South America. So that's that's a little bit different too because they're kinda part of the global south.
Rob Chartrand:Right? But then by 2010, that number dropped from 93 to 61%. And other parts of the world, Asia, Africa, South America, have just blown up with the gospel and and with Christians, and believers in in those parts of the world. And I love what it says in the in the in the article. It says that for the first time in human history, we have a truly global faith.
Kate Brennan:Mhmm.
Rob Chartrand:So it's not just this kind of Western European Anglo faith, but it's represented by so many parts of the world. Mhmm. So, Jeff, you, have some personal experience with, new Canadians coming to Canada Canada and integrating into church life. You got any insight you wanna share about that?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I mean, I've had, you know, in churches where I've been a pastor, we've had, immigrant, communities where, you know, they've come and, and used our church facility and to have a to have an ethnic church where they're, you know, they're speaking their language. And then we've also had, communities come, and they want to integrate into our, into our church where we, you know, we worship in English. And, I I know my own my wife is Filipino. And when her family came to, they came to California first, they made the choice that they wanted to be, they wanted to be part of a of a an American church and worship in English.
Geoff Dresser:And I know that that is a that is a huge decision decision for for families coming over sort of where they want to end up. And there can be, you know, there are lots of, implications for that of what it means to, to be an ethnic church and what that what we're seeing, you know, from the influx of, of Asian immigrants that happened a couple of generations ago. They're now into the 2nd or 3rd generation. Yeah. And their their church context is evolving now with the children who have grown up in Canada and have different perspectives and sort of different needs, for their church as well.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Oftentimes, what they might do and I'm Christian Missionary Alliance, so we see this all the time in our in our ethnic churches, which were initially homogeneous, but then now they have a second generation growing up. And, they're what do we do with the second generation, who maybe don't speak the language and whatnot? So oftentimes, what they'll do is they'll establish an English speaking congregation. That's one of their solutions for the next generation.
Rob Chartrand:Or they'll go multi ethnic. They'll try and radically change the entire context of the church to be a multi ethnic church. When I was a youth pastor road in the Toronto area, a lot of families from homogeneous church backgrounds, their kids would come to our youth ministry and start coming to our church, and then eventually their families would follow because they wanna be where their kids are at. Right? But because we were a larger youth ministry that attracted kids from a lot of different places, we we did have kids from, a lot of our ethnic churches starting to, attend our our youth ministry.
Rob Chartrand:So so, yeah, there's lots of different ways that this is, changing in churches and and changing, even these 2nd generation churches here. So let me ask you guys, what can we learn from our brothers and sisters around the world who are showing up in our churches and integrating into the life of the church and into the church family?
Geoff Dresser:Well, I think they they can help us look at the way we worship, the way we do church with fresh eyes. And as they they bring the things, the the ways of worshiping that they're used to, And that that can just strengthen the way that, that we worship. I mean, I certainly love leading worship with lots of people who are from warm weather cultures, who are generally more expressive and more exuberant Yeah. And freer in showing their, their emotions. So I love to have, I love to have, you know, those type of worshipers among my congregation and helping those of us who grew up in frigid cold temperatures where we like to keep our limbs close to our body to conserve warmth that, maybe those hands could clap or be raised up in the air or maybe we can start to, to, dance a little bit to the music would be nice.
Rob Chartrand:It is funny that warm weather people, like I mean, cold weather people, like Canadians, like their distance as well. You'd think if it was so cold out, you'd wanna be together, you know, but we we kinda spread out for
Geoff Dresser:for some reason. No. I need all my warmth to myself. I'm not sharing it with, with anyone.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. How about you, Kate? Any thoughts on that?
Kate Brennan:I yeah. I think similar to what Jeff said, and I think just like the posture, that they come into church and into a service with as well. There's a couple, from Nigeria who have been coming to our church now for a year, and every Sunday, I comment, and maybe it's a lesser point to the worship, but I comment on their dress because she shows up in, like, the most gorgeous dresses, and he is bought, like, you know, full suit and and they it's like for them, it's just yeah. They're, I don't know. I guess they they come to church ready to do church and to be in the community, and I guess for me, like, thinking, oh, I I got 5 minutes.
Kate Brennan:I barely rolled out of bed. Oh, I gotta get to church and, like, throw something kind of presentable. Like, I didn't grow up going to church, so I didn't, you know, maybe have, like, the Sunday best kind of idea, but I do think that there's something, to that, and it always, like, makes me happy when I see them all dressed up because I'm, like, wow. They really put themselves together or, like, I don't know, and they're showing up, yeah, just ready for, I don't know, more of, like, an not an event, but, they just see it as this bigger part of their week that they dress up for and they get ready for. And I don't know.
Kate Brennan:I I really like that.
Geoff Dresser:So
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. It's like one of the most important events and moments of the week that they'll
Kate Brennan:have in the week. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:And dress accordingly Yeah. For that.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And I I love the way it makes us ask, like, oh, maybe there's a different way of doing this or or may maybe our way isn't the only isn't the only way. And I think it's it's good when we get we get drawn into that that reflection on on how we do church and on what kind of attitudes we bring Mhmm. To church. I think that's that's really healthy.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. To step out from behind our cultural lenses that that we assume are our faith lenses, but in many
Rob Chartrand:ways, they're our cultural lenses and and and then see ourselves for who who we truly are. And and I think it's it's it's both ways. Like, it's and they're doing the same thing, as they're they're with us in worship. What's even better is is, like, to be able to dialogue about that together.
Geoff Dresser:Mhmm.
Rob Chartrand:I had a rich conversation on the way back from the farm where I took, my friends, and, we we've talked exactly about that. And I and I just the question I asked him is, so what what do you see differently? You know, like, what what do you notice? What what became most obvious about the way that we worship together? And and it just struck up an amazing conversation that that lasted for, like, 20 minutes as we, were seeking to get back into the city.
Rob Chartrand:So so good. So good. Well, this week on the podcast, we we are talking to Hernando Munoz. He is the Spanish congregation pastor at First Alliance Church in Calgary. And, it's interesting.
Rob Chartrand:We get to hear about his story and his call to his ministry and his and his journey to Canada from Colombia, but we also hear about his church planting experiences with Hispanic believers and, just the the interesting model that they have at First Alliance Church, for an ethnic congregation and how they work that together as one big church. So I hope our listeners are both inspired, and they're challenged by this, conversation. So thanks for joining us in studio, friends. Thanks, Rob.
Kate Brennan:Thanks, Rob.
Rob Chartrand:Church in the North is a production of Briercrest College. We love hearing from our listeners. If you have suggestions for topics, guests, or if you have questions, our email address is podcast@briercrest.ca . If you like what you're hearing, leave us a review, share your comments, or hit that subscribe button for more content north of the 49th parallel.
Rob Chartrand:Well, hey. We are so excited to have with us on Church in the North, Hernando Munoz. He is the Spanish congregation pastor at First Alliance Church in Calgary. Hernando, welcome to the show.
Hernando Munoz:Hi, Rob, and thank you. It is a great pleasure to be part of, this time together, and thank you for the invitation to church in the north. So very happy to be here today.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. That's so good. Listen. Hey.
Rob Chartrand:There's so much I wanna talk about, so many questions I gotta ask about your story, and about your church and what God is doing. But I thought I I'd start with your your family's faith story because I just you know, in talking with you, I just found that so fascinating about your journey of coming to Jesus. So I wonder if you could give us a little bit about that background from all the way back to the days in Colombia.
Hernando Munoz:Yes. So we came to faith with my family about 30 years ago, when Colombia and most of Latin America were primarily Catholic. So, in fact, in in the Colombian constitution, there was a decree, a declaration that says this is a Catholic country. So back then, that that changes maybe 25 years ago. So, my my mom, she was very sick.
Hernando Munoz:She had a a very hard diagnosis of, heart disease, And she was just sent home by the doctors without, any solution to just wait for death. And, we have some relatives that they came to faith through these evangelical churches. At that time, they were very little, very few, and they would look like cults and, like, very weird people that nobody wanted anything to do with. And and they came and they prayed for my mom, and my mom received, instant miracles, the healing right there.
Rob Chartrand:Wow.
Hernando Munoz:That brought us to Jesus. It brought my dad. My my dad was very far from God as well, and and they didn't want to do anything with with churches. And, yeah, when that happened, that just changed everything. God made make himself so real to them, and they start just going to church and and learning about everything.
Hernando Munoz:So that's where we start our faith journey with with the Lord.
Rob Chartrand:So was it your just your entire family just suddenly pivoted and embraced, this new faith?
Hernando Munoz:Yes. It was just very real to us that, I mean, we just knew it was there there was no other option. This was real to us, and, we didn't know anything about church, anything much about Christianity because that does was what happened with with Catholicism is that we we went to church 3 times when we got baptized as a as a consent, when we married, and then when we died, that's Okay. How it was. So there was not really much of biblical substance context in the in churches as well, so nobody actually read the bible.
Hernando Munoz:And so, also, not not much space for personal faith and growth, and not our relationship with Jesus, very, very, far from God. So when when we just received this prayer and got invited to the church after and keep learning, it was very new, very new, but it was very radical, very, one one turning point transformation experience. And and, yeah, then we just started learning more and more about God and and the Bible and growing in the faith and and wanting to serve him more and more because even we were few Christians, the churches were small. People were very convinced of their faith. So very strong in in prayer, in evangelism.
Hernando Munoz:We were going to church 4 or 5 times during the week. So people were very given to God because it was a real risk to come to faith and just, even departing from their parents, their families. I remember growing up being the only kid, the only evangelical kid in in the school. We are we're the only Christian church in town. And, yeah, a lot of stories around that, but it was very powerful to see God at work and just seeing him fill in our hearts and convince that this is the truth, the way, and the life.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well, I can't imagine how challenging a decision that would have been because so much of the cultural and the historical faith of your community was Catholicism. And now you guys were making a break from that. And so it wasn't just a you weren't just changing churches. You were you were changing everything, basically.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Hernando Munoz:That's that's true how it was. And but, thank God, those years, really, God has has made a big difference. And, yeah, a lot of people, pioneers, missionaries, and just, local evangelists and pastors that really gave their lives for God and start churches. And and in a very short period of time, there has been a huge transformation, really, in Latin America, huge revivals, churches growing to megachurches, and it's been just an explosion of the gospel. And, yeah, it's the work of the Holy Spirit visiting the nation.
Hernando Munoz:So, on the on the one side, like, yeah, looking also to the social context in Latin America, political context where, countries haven't been able to to to really grow and really enjoy the richness that they have because of silence and social problems and political instability. But now see how really the gospel is taking root and has provided a a way for transformation. So I think that's my the story of my life. This, you know, this Latin American family, not really hope not no hope, lots of problems, and and plugging into this church and trusting in in in God and and then seeing that he really makes a wave even in the in the most darkest or difficult circumstances. So it's it's beautiful to see how the gospel has grown in Latin America, churches, and really in in in in in one generation.
Hernando Munoz:And now, yeah, this, even now sending missionaries and and sending exporting revival to Yeah. To the good places.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Praise God. And and, you eventually made the decision though to come to Canada in 2,008. So how old were you when you made that decision, and and what what was the reason for that decision?
Hernando Munoz:So I I was finishing my college. I was getting to, be a teacher, language teacher, and I got an invitation from my school to go to Canada. And I wasn't even sure where Canada was in the map. Never thought about leaving my country, and this was just a very random situation. I didn't have to apply for this.
Hernando Munoz:I was invited to do it, and it was funny because even I like, the school, they provided for my flight tickets, my accommodations, and gave me papers to apply for a visa. And my visa was denied the first time, and I thought, okay. This is not from God, and it's fine. I'm I mean, I I wasn't looking for it. And I went to to the head of the school that did this is a large school, a Catholic school college, and and she said and I was gonna just thank her for inviting me and just say, well, like, didn't get the visa, but thank you.
Hernando Munoz:And she said, oh, you have to reapply. You have to do it. You you have to do again your visa. And I I was I I wasn't really planning on doing that, but I did it because she was insisting and and I say, okay, Lord. I'll do it again.
Hernando Munoz:And and I got my visa just maybe a week before I had to fly to Canada because I reapplied the same week. So it was even harder to get a visa when you I just got one rejected. So I did it. I applied for the visa, and, yeah, I I traveled that summer to Canada to just be part of this program. I was, 21 years old, and, that just opened a whole other, plan that God had prepared for me to come to this country.
Hernando Munoz:And that basically changed my life from being my country to now living in Canada now for a few years now, but that's where my story began. And then join ministry, join the church, and being able to call Canada my home first, the place where I got married. I I had my kids, but also where I spent now a few years serving God, serving the Hispanic community. I'm I'm just doing life here.
Rob Chartrand:So was there a call
Rob Chartrand:on your life, for ministry before you came, or did that kinda emerge after you got here in Canada?
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. So since I was little, just coming to church, it was a very vital church. Even we were small and kind of on the margins of the society, it was very vital, and people were praying and just believing for all of God miracles happening and just a very beautiful experience. So from very little, I I I feel like I was very blessed to have this experience, and my church experience and my family experience where we will just give ourselves to god. And growing up, I just wanted to know more about the lord.
Hernando Munoz:I think that's been my what what is driving me in my heart to pursue ministry and pursue education and and everything for God is just desire to to know him. And and, yeah, when when I was, a young adult still in Colombia, I think I re recommended my life to the Lord one day, and I said, Lord, whatever you want me to do, I'll do it. And just wanna follow with all my heart, pursue everything you have for me. So that was a prayer I I did at that point when I was trying to decide what to do for the school. And after that, yeah, now I feel everything god putting on my path has worked for a purpose and building, yeah, a purpose in my life.
Hernando Munoz:So how god I I can't really explain how god brought things to me and how he's he keeps bringing things to me in just very unexplainable ways. I cannot explain how it's happened, like, coming to Canada. But in other areas as well, like getting to know my wife and, the place where I first began ministry, how that ministry led me to other places in ministry. So it's been very unexplainable to me, but I it all it all start back then when I was a kid in Colombia just when god came and rescued my family. And then as a young man just saying, god, I'll I'll do whatever you want me to do and take me wherever you want me to go, and I'll I'll do it.
Hernando Munoz:And I feel that's kind of my heart still to to say yes to god and just, trust. Yeah. And there has been a lot of journeys. Not everything is
Rob Chartrand:Well, it's a dangerous prayer to pray that, but we all need to pray it, and be willing to accept whatever it is that the Lord asks us to do. You eventually, though, ended up planting a church in Toronto, didn't you?
Hernando Munoz:How how how long were
Rob Chartrand:you in Canada when you when you before you started, this church plant?
Hernando Munoz:So it it it had been a year in Canada for me. Wow. So kind of the transition because I was supposed to go back to Colombia once my school program ended, and I was just planning to go back. I I went to visit these friends from back home. They were already established here in Toronto, and they were they attended an Spanish church in Toronto, first Spanish Alliance Church, and they start telling me, like, why don't you pray?
Hernando Munoz:Maybe the Lord wants you to stay here, and there is a lot of ministry to do, and just just pray. So I started kind of very open handed feeling, maybe, Lord, if you want me to say, I'll I'll I'll do it. So I clocked to the church there in Toronto, and they invited me to be the youth the youth pastor youth pastor.
Rob Chartrand:Okay.
Hernando Munoz:So that's how it first began. And maybe a month after I came to Canada, I was a youth pastor. And after a year, we were reached at the church by an organization, in downtown Toronto, and they have a shelter. They were gathering people, and there is now a regular meeting of newcomers from Latin America, mainly Mexico. They were coming to this place to gather food and clothing and and just different help.
Hernando Munoz:And they start a bible study, but they didn't have a pastor. So they reach out to our church looking for a pastor for these people, and and I I joke to my pastor because my senior pastor I mean, this guy has been here for a year as a youth pastor, and he said, would you want to go and just start leading this group there and and we'll we'll we'll plant a church. And I joke because I I I joke with the verse that says the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. And I thought to myself at that moment, the workers are so few here in Canada that they are sending me, like, how can they send a 22 years old man with not much experience in ministry to plant a church in this place in downtown. So that's how I was called to, start a church plant.
Hernando Munoz:Very unprepared, not having much experience, but really responded to a call and to a need. And and that was good. I mean, we spent about, 12, 13 years. We first met in the shelter, so it was it was funny because we had the Sunday meetings, and then we had to remove everything because, people from the city from the streets were actually coming to sleep in in this same building, in the same room.
Rob Chartrand:Wow.
Hernando Munoz:So and after a few years, we were able to move to an actual church building that where people are still meeting right now there in Toronto. So it was beautiful. New immigrants, providing a family that was our church was called La Casa, the house. And it was all about providing a family for those who were coming, a family in Christ, but also a family in Canada. They they were moving as immigrants to a new country.
Rob Chartrand:So did you meet your wife in this church, or did you meet her somewhere else?
Hernando Munoz:To actually, I I was starting to date my wife at the time, my girlfriend, before I moved to Canada. So this is all going on. Yeah. So I told my wife, I'm going to Canada. I'm coming back in 3 months.
Hernando Munoz:And she said, oh, you're not coming back. So this is I mean, this this was very helpful to me because she was a woman of God, and and she knew what was going. I wasn't. And I said, but why wouldn't I come in 3 months? I have my flight my return flight ticket and everything.
Hernando Munoz:And she said, oh, you're not coming. God is doing something. So I came and and then well, I called her. I'm I'm tell telling her I'm not coming back. And I'm not sure when I when I'm coming back because I'm now going to start also a process to apply for, permanent papers here in Canada.
Hernando Munoz:So I can't really go back until everything is solved for me. So it was actually 3 years. So we didn't see each other for 3 years. And Wow. We have the video call.
Hernando Munoz:We didn't have the, yeah, WhatsApp. So it was phone call, and I I didn't earn much money money, so I have to call her maybe once that week. And, yeah, I think God protected our love. I think that's what I feel this happened. It wouldn't be impossible just for for us in our strength, but God actually protected our love throughout those 3 years.
Hernando Munoz:And when she came, we we got married and, yeah, we started life together, and she joined the ministry as well and and life in Canada for us.
Rob Chartrand:Wow. So, I mean, I I just that's a that's a commitment. That's a decision, on her part to make, of the calling that god had on your life and hers as well. And, like, 3 years is a long wait.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. Yeah. And I think the hardest part came when she actually received her Canadian residence and had to move to Canada. Like, she had already developed a a profession. She was working for the Ministry of Education in Colombia.
Hernando Munoz:She had a good job, the stability. So it was hard. And, yeah, again, I don't think it would have been possible unless God was in the midst of it. Yeah. And and she finally said, okay.
Hernando Munoz:I'll go. And when she said, I'll go, she just also committed to whatever Jesus had and for her life as well. And and we've seen the fruits of that as well. I mean, it's it's it's it's a long process to really come to a new country, like even us, and just learn the language. We were ministering to to people and but we were ourselves in that same journey.
Hernando Munoz:And I I remember one point in in the church plan that I was the only person who had permanent papers in Canada out of all the congregation. So they were either refugees. They were waiting for, processes, but I I clearly clearly remember I was the only person in the church who had permanent papers. So there was a lot of that that was one of of the major prayer request in our church. Lord, let us stay in Canada.
Rob Chartrand:Mhmm.
Hernando Munoz:So the my wife coming to just immigrate and starting to learn the language and starting to, find, equivalence for her education. Going through that process was was hard, but Yeah. I think for us, it's it's it's what God called us called us at the end to do.
Rob Chartrand:So and you have 3 you're you you have 3 children as well, ages, I think, 10, 9, and 8. Is that correct?
Hernando Munoz:Yes. Yes. So our kids are now 10, 9, and 8, and they were all born in Toronto. Now we're here in Calgary. It's, it's a joy.
Hernando Munoz:They're 1 year apart each other. So it's a good time for us church planting, immigration, having kids' education. But That is a lot of change
Rob Chartrand:in a very short period of time, my friend.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. Yeah. And and I think, like, one of the hardest parts is not having your family. When you start a family and you want to have your mom and dad giving you a hand and all of that, so not having like, even for my wife, her mom when she was in the delivery room and just us. So that's I think that's difficult, but, it also expands our hearts and and give us eyes to to understand what people go through in, in, in this country.
Hernando Munoz:That is a beautiful country, but still living your country is a hard experience.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me about your journey to First Alliance Church in Calgary then. How how did God orchestrate that?
Hernando Munoz:So FAC is one of the largest churches in the alliance in Canada, and they failed from God a vision to start a Hispanic congregation in South Calgary. And my wife and I joined the team to lead the congregation without really knowing what was going to happen. We began to gather with people when we came. We never been to Calgary, and it came through people that we recognize in ministry that we appreciate. So we felt peace, and we also felt, well, God is doing something here.
Hernando Munoz:And I remember the first time we came to meet people in the church, we traveled to Calgary. And, First Alliance is a multi campus church that serves South Calgary. So they already had a campus here, and we were kind of going to the different campuses this weekend just to sense God's, leading. And it it was international day, so it was around October when the church celebrates missions, international day. And we went to this southwest campus that meets, at a school there in in the middle of a large growing community, and they had international service.
Hernando Munoz:And, they started leading worship in Spanish. So the worship leader was actually from Venezuela, and she was leading that Sunday worship, and she starts singing in Spanish. And we fell with my wife. Like, we were looking at each other, like, so connected to, wow. God is really doing something here.
Hernando Munoz:Something something larger, something bigger. God is at work. And we went back to Toronto. We had a strong sense that we we should come, and and we came. And and we failed the heart of the church here to reach out the city and to reach out the the different communities and to do something, like, something that maybe other church wouldn't do.
Hernando Munoz:This is, like, a very large church. So I had the question, why is this church doing this? Why do you want to do why do you wanna do a service in Spanish? And and some of the of the reason like, the main reason is just God put it in our hearts, but then they they they felt they had a community that was struggling to follow their service in English. And they were already doing something special.
Hernando Munoz:They provided a translation for them in their language, which they still do to different languages. But they just felt God's calling to do this, and they wanted people not just being there, seeing, but actually taking a leadership role and being able to to fully be a church in their own language and their own cultures. So they, they fully supported. They they saw the Spanish congregation as their church as an expression of this of their church. So it wasn't going to work as a separate church, but really as an expression of who they are.
Hernando Munoz:So they were invest investing and and and putting their vision, and just giving this community the capacity to develop in their own culture and language. So it was a nice fusion of things. We kind of, receive this, the blessings of a long standing church, with a strong tradition, with strong Christian tradition, but then bringing our own ethnic identity. So that's that's what we have been experiencing, the the beauty of being, a truly Hispanic Canadian church in in Calgary.
Geoff Dresser:And
Hernando Munoz:it's been very surprising. We began when we moved over, so we brought our kids, family, everything. We moved over to Calgary and started spraying and gathering with some people to pray and planning for launching, an official service, not knowing what was going to happen. And and, really, we were very surprised God was just bringing people and people and people and people beyond our imagination and then dreams. Wow.
Hernando Munoz:Then and it was clear to me that really God wanted to plant a church for Hispanics in South Calcutta. There was the need. Wow. People were there. People didn't have a church.
Hernando Munoz:It was hard to find a place, and a lot of people were just around in need of a place where they could come and and in their own language. So it's it's been really a great joy for for for us to be part of what God has been doing here at the FAC. And and and I believe this is is sparkling other things, for the church and for the ministry seeing the opportunity that there is in multicultural ministry, which is is is a is a difficult thing to do because, it's hard to step into a different language as a church. Maybe we see missionaries or international workers, they do it. But as a church here in Canada, as a whole church to step into multicultural ministry is is a larger project.
Hernando Munoz:So I I felt they rescued. They they follow God's call. They did it, and and I feel, God is bringing fruits out of that. And, like, myself as being a Hispanic, I feel so blessed to be part of the church, so so loved and and so welcomed in by by the church itself, which I think I mean, we're called to be the difference if if the world is hard or difficult, if, they do the church is just this, this is this place where we are different and we're welcoming and we can really come together. Yeah.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:So your, your church in Calgary, I mean, I mean, you're at First Alliance Church, which is very much in like a more of a suburban area. Well, it's kind of industrial, but it's, it's located, you know, in it's not inner city like Toronto. I mean, your other church was much more inner city. So, I mean, how are they different then from from each other? You they've gotta be, like, servicing and helping different people, or talk to me about the difference between the two churches.
Hernando Munoz:Yes. So the first setting was a inner city. Our ministry there was very much a welcoming ministry, transitional ministry where people were coming, just arriving to Canada. It was beautiful because they were in a place where they're very open. It was we were talking about how Latin America was strongly Catholic but, in really a need to get to know Jesus.
Hernando Munoz:So, a lot of we found a lot of people coming from very strong Catholic backgrounds. They were very open because now they're in a different position. They they need relationships, and they are really willing to receive from others. So that that context really was beautiful in creating opportunities to ministry people, who were very open to, evangelical or Christianity or just, I mean, getting to know Jesus in a deeper level. The the the difficult part is, is is to is for the establishment of the church because, I mean, you know, downtown Toronto, these areas, people don't really stay there.
Hernando Munoz:They don't really take root on these places. They look for for other places where housing is is more affordable. There is more opportunities. So we were a very transitional ministry. And, yeah, I think part of it is we we we feel we had a calling to, really invest more into a a larger church or develop leadership and things like that.
Hernando Munoz:But we just love it, creating relationships and the familiarity of, ministry to newcomers. And then over over here in Calgary, Calgary is a city that is growing like old Canada. Just a lot of building, new neighborhoods, new new communities. And this area of South Calgary is growing exponentially. And, it was, surprising for us to to find that these spaces are actually becoming a heaven for immigrants because housing's house housing is is more affordable, and and I think there is also better job opportunities for people, which is more difficult in the more crowded cities of Canada.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. Well, that actually helps the church a lot because in Toronto, people were commuting an hour, an hour and a half just to get to church. They had very, very difficult demanding jobs. So I couldn't I didn't ask much from them. I'm I'm actually I was very happy they were coming to the service because I knew how their lives was very hard.
Hernando Munoz:So here, in in this area in Calgary, people are commuting 15 minutes, 20 minutes to come to church. They actually are being able to to buy a house, and that's a huge difference for anybody, but even more so for immigrants. So we we've been able to invest more in people and also see how people are more willing to receive more. And, hopefully, this is something that that doesn't happen only in Caliari but but in other places of of Canada where immigrants are finding more spaces where they can, establish themselves. And that that is, is also a win for for plant church planting.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. Church planting is is more beneficial.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. And I I said earlier, industrial, what I meant was commercial. So there's there's a bunch of commercial and as well as, housing all around there as well, residential. So it's got quite a blend of just, it's a kind of a hub down there of where people activity happens. Right.
Rob Chartrand:Right. Right around the church campus.
Hernando Munoz:Yes. Yes. I I found how Calgary is is very different from, like, Ontario and and, like, those dynamics as well. And I I feel everything really benefits family life, because then you have everything close in the proximity, and you don't have to commute that much. And, yeah, we're we're very blessed to to also see see that that kind of community where people, have more time for family and for church.
Hernando Munoz:And that's Yeah. That's that makes ministry different too.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. You said before that, that,
Rob Chartrand:your Hispanic congregation is, it's not a separate church than First Alliance. It is part of the First Alliance churches. So you're one body, but yet you also have separate congregations. I wonder if you could explain that model to our listeners a little bit.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. So I think the the basic principle is is to be 1 church in different expressions. So as a one church, we we we share a church vision, and we also, yeah, we we we follow God's link in one direction, and that's the direction of reaching out in Calgary and and the world. So I think the inter interesting part as a multigenerational, because it's not just multiethnic, but it's also multilingual. Mhmm.
Hernando Munoz:It's also multigenerational. It's also multisite. So there is different multiple things happening.
Rob Chartrand:It's very multilingual.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Everything something else is popping up, but, I think one one part is just, yes. Be is the integration.
Hernando Munoz:That is how we keep ourselves together. So there is a lot of intention in how that happened here in the church, and there is a lot of diversity in leader leadership, in church ministry, in in how things happen in the church. So there is a lot of intention behind that. It just doesn't really happen, but, it needs to be integrated. And I feel I I feel as a church, we have grown in learning how to do it and learning from others as well, and and just keep trusting that this is the direction God wants us to go here in Canada where, people are coming from different countries, but also where we see changes, happening so fast where new generations are rising, new communities are growing.
Hernando Munoz:So I think in part of is is is being the leadership of the church trying to to see the opportunities and but also see the need for the church to adapt to the context to the the context where where they are. So, like, for instance, we meet, and and and and I appreciate this very much from our church is that everybody kind of has the same, place on the table. And even if you are the new church, even if you are, an online church, everybody is part of the same family family and is seen as the same value. And something special for me is that on Sunday, we have our Sunday morning service, which as a as an immigrant congregation, part of another church is is not usually what happens.
Rob Chartrand:Right.
Hernando Munoz:Because but but the church is is being very intentional to just use every space opportunity that they have to to bring up people. And we have here in the church on Sundays the English service, which is the largest service, and they use the the larger auditorium happening. And at the same time, we are meeting in the 2nd largest space in Spanish. So it's beautiful because you can't come through the church doors and you're walking through the hall, and here you hear, people worshiping in Spanish. And do you and you keep walking, and then you you hear people worshiping in in in English.
Hernando Munoz:And then, like, our children's ministry, we meet together, and which is very beneficial as well for for an immigrant church because the second generation, they feel more connected to the, host, the the local Canadian English culture. And that helps us also to to subsist subsist as a congregation. And so there is a lot of elements of, integration, keeping ourselves together, aligned, and working together. But then there is also a lot of freedom on being ourselves and finding the ways that work better for us to connect with God and with our community. And that that's that's been it's been great, I feel, for us.
Rob Chartrand:So you share NextGen Ministries with the other congregations in the church?
Hernando Munoz:Yes. We we do share all ministries. Maybe at some point, we we we tweak tweak things. But for instance, the the children's and youth ministries is, is a one program. And we do camps, youth meetings, Sunday school programs together.
Hernando Munoz:Especially that part is very beneficial for us to do it together because kids, feel better, more part of the church that speaks the same language their their friends speaks. But then we have, occasional activities in Spanish because we know these kids are navigating to worlds, and they're between two cultures. And we know just having that connection with their roots, their parents' roots, is good for them and and for their homes as well. Yeah. So we do have we we do integrate in in some Spanish some sort of Spanish activities and and events.
Hernando Munoz:So they they are well cared from all all sides from Yeah. Canadian culture, from Hispanic culture, and and, hopefully, being rooted in Christ and and and just receiving as much as possible from from the church experience.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well and I I can imagine that that would be an important value for the families who attend your church is that their children still are able to experience their first culture, and experience Christ in a framework of their first culture.
Hernando Munoz:Yes. Yes. I, I think culture is, you know, is very important for us. It's, this is really a defining for us and, probably some of us may not be aware of how important that is because we are we live in our own culture. It's it's it's just when when you are outside of your culture that you you you hold onto your culture so strongly that it becomes a a a survival tool.
Hernando Munoz:And and I I know many people come to the church just because it's the place where they can speak their language. They don't have that any other places. They in the week, in their workplaces, and and it's hard to connect with people from from your country. And that's a big, attractive from the churches that they can't come to a place where they feel their country for for a little time.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Are there other ethnic congregations then at First Alliance?
Hernando Munoz:There is groups.
Rob Chartrand:Okay.
Hernando Munoz:And, currently, the church is launching a Portuguese campus, so a full campus in Portuguese. Yeah. And this has been the heart of of the church. They the the the the vision of launching 10 new expressions of FAC, in the next 10 years. So that's that's been the prayer and and vision of the church 10 in 10 years.
Hernando Munoz:So this this year, it has come also as as something God has worked out, and there is a Portuguese campus now officially being launched fully from FEC. And, yeah, it's it's it's just amazing to see that how one once the church opens the opportunity, there's a ripple effect where there's things out there that just are waiting for someone to do something. And and, yeah, the church keeps moving into that that direction of multi campus and and creating spaces for new expression. There is another there's an online campus here as well. Yeah.
Hernando Munoz:So that's another whole world that is also very exciting to see people connecting in in, other countries in different languages and using technology, which also is a great benefit now that language barriers are less difficult to overcome through technology and distance. Yes.
Rob Chartrand:So, these other groups are there are other language groups or cultural groups. Is the thought that maybe perhaps one day they could eventually become campuses as well?
Hernando Munoz:I think, the the church is moving with a large vision and then praying step by step. Yeah. So that's how it happened to the Portuguese, I mean, and with us as well. So I think the the church takes really, you know, the work of discerning and seeing what god wants to do, and I'm very open very open to to how these expressions may look like. So there is not really a, like, a fixed, pattern for multicompost development.
Hernando Munoz:We design a structure, but, it's very often to, like, inner city or online or ethnic communities. It's it's more what the Lord kind of brings to the church and then the sermon and and trust in them.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well, and I and I can imagine that one of the the most important hurdles is to find a leader, to find somebody who has, you know, the call and the training and the the time to to lead a congregation, or who can commit full time to it even. And so, you know, we ask the Lord of the harvest to raise up workers, and you really do need the lord to initiate that. You they don't just appear magically on trees. Yes.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. Yeah. And and but then also, the the willingness of the church to take risk, let go of control. Because I go back to how I first start, and I I think I I was not a good candidate to start a church plant at the beginning. And I guess I I mean, I give credit to my pastor who said, okay.
Hernando Munoz:You go. And for me, I I think he was crazy, but I I I imagine he was a man of God and and and and saw something. And and and he said, this is my work and and trust. So I I feel a lot of things that God wants to do come out of those experiences where a lead pastor or someone that can do something hears from him, and and that idea becomes something, and that God brings everything that is needed. Really, God has unlimited resources, unlimited possibilities.
Hernando Munoz:And, yeah, when when we are willing to risk it and prayer and trust and work together, invite others, that just, creates a great space to see things happening in the kingdom at work. So
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Amen. So the the people who, end up at your church, who walk in the door, are they all from, say, an evangelical tradition or some of them from a Catholic tradition or maybe even a nominal, religious tradition? Tell me about them. What's the makeup?
Rob Chartrand:What's the breakdown of people who come to your church?
Hernando Munoz:Yes. I think it's very diverse, in terms of, spiritual journeys. Mhmm. Very diverse and also culturally because we're Latinos from different countries.
Rob Chartrand:Right.
Hernando Munoz:And also different different, moments in the immigration journey, which is also very determining. It's very different to ministry to someone that just arrived to Canada, to someone that has been in Canada for 20 years, and they are in the same church. And so, but I think we we go back to to the centrality of the gospel that speaks to everyone, no matter what where they are in their journey of faith. And and then, yeah, there is other work that we have to do to kind of learning together how we are one church because we need to learn to be with others and to understand our own culture, our own journeys so we can live life together. So I think that's one of the part that, in a so in a in a congregation that is so diverse, spiritually in different parts of of the Christian body and then also from different countries and different, moments in the immigration journey is is, it it takes some time, but, yeah, we come together to to the same point where we all need Jesus.
Hernando Munoz:We all need God. We're here because he's here, and Holy Spirit makes makes it work wonderfully. If if we if we focus on worshiping Jesus, we all grow. We all experience God in our lives, and and, ultimately, he makes the church happen. He makes the church possible.
Hernando Munoz:Without him, it's impossible. Yeah. Without the Holy Spirit, the church falls apart. So, that's our heart to lean into looking after God's presence every Sunday, every time whenever whenever things are not working well, going back to, okay. Let's focus on what we need to be focused.
Hernando Munoz:That is Jesus and his kingdom.
Rob Chartrand:So is there a diversity of, social economic status as well in your church?
Hernando Munoz:Well, yeah, the more recent people, more recent immigrants Yeah. They, they need everything. Is and and and the 1st years, I mean, it's very hard to start a new life in a new country. Just the basic stuff is very hard. The language is very hard to acquire.
Hernando Munoz:Education is very hard. Just to find yourself in a new country in a way that you're comfortable with the minimum requirements takes years. So people in in those places, really, they, they're looking for survival, jobs and, just, and they need to learn English. So it's hard to live if you need to learn the language. So it's hard choices either either you you work or you study English.
Hernando Munoz:But then if you didn't study English, you you're stuck with the same job. So those kind of it's a it's a very difficult journey to come as a newcomer. And and then the more established people yeah. They, they have made Canada their home. They feel very comfortable here.
Hernando Munoz:They look back to their countries just as a place where maybe they go and visit, have vacations, connect with their families, but they their kids are now going to college, universities here in Canada. So those are very kind of our more diverse groups, the e commerce ones, and then the more established ones. And there's all kinds of different life conditions for them as well.
Rob Chartrand:Are, are any from Latin America seeking refugee status?
Hernando Munoz:Oh, yeah. We actually have we have had in the past years, some of the top refugee countries in Canada from Latin America. So my home country, Colombia. Yep. When when I came, it was the top, like, before maybe 10, 15 years ago, it was the top country, and it still is very welcome, like, people coming from Colombia.
Hernando Munoz:Now it's Venezuela. So we we see families from Venezuela. I think those are our 2 largest communities in the church as well. Yeah. And they were mainly coming through refugee immigration dynamics, and that's pumping immigration a lot from Latin America.
Hernando Munoz:It's just red people coming from from very difficult places. So, I mean, there is a country that we we see often in the news now in in in war, but Latin America has been in in war for many years and and with many other problems. So that's one of the reasons why I mean, there is a lot of opportunity in Hispanic ministries because there is large communities coming from Latin America now, particularly Venezuela is a large one. And and not only to Canada, but they are all over the world, And I feel it's a huge blessing for them to be able to arrive to Canada, being accepted, welcomed, and and start a new life.
Rob Chartrand:So how is your church, helping, new Canadians, Latin American Canadians, with the challenges that they're facing as immigrants?
Hernando Munoz:So I think from within the congregation, because most of us have come through the same journey, you know, how it is, and and also we know where we find find help. So there is a lot of sharing of information. If you come in for the first time, just recently arrived, you're looking for a lawyer, you're looking for school. You're looking for food bank. You're looking for a shelter.
Hernando Munoz:You're looking for yeah. So there is a lot of everybody has gone through that. So Mhmm. It's there is a lot of sharing of that information. And just And
Rob Chartrand:and if if you're in Canada, you're looking for a parka and good boots?
Hernando Munoz:Yes. Yeah. I mean, you're coming from from the sun. You're coming from
Geoff Dresser:Yeah.
Hernando Munoz:And and all of that. So that, yeah, that basic information is very valuable. It's very important. And and familiarity, hospitality is being able to be together, share a meal together. That's very important.
Hernando Munoz:And then from our global church, here at the FAC, there is a sponsorship program that is very strong that the church supports very well, and and it also is targeting those countries that are arriving that are in in difficult times. So that's very intentional here happening with in the church. And then, yeah, there is all kinds of support programs from our global church that we can share with our, Latino community.
Rob Chartrand:So other churches that might want to, help new Canadians, any advice you'd give to them about how they might bless immigrant churches or new Canadians?
Hernando Munoz:I think from from my journey as an immigrant and seeing the church here in, in different, in my journey from different angles, I think is it has blessed me so much. The the church open arms. I think that is that is huge, and I think that's already established. I think for the most part, Canadians understand other cultures just by being one of the more most multicultural countries in the world. I think most Canadians, by having people from other countries in their neighbors, their their kids, classmates, and colleges.
Hernando Munoz:So I think that that open arms posture that Canadians have by nature, hospitality is huge in this country, humanitarian response is huge in this country, that is something that Canadian church is already doing. They already have. That's their gift. Mhmm. Right?
Hernando Munoz:I will say one thing is that just to recognize, thank God, or because I've been very blessed by that, by the gift of the Canadian church by being hospitable by nature. And and the other is, like, whenever they feel because God has different callings for everyone in different places. But whenever someone might feel that God is knocking to the door for them to open it to a a specific community. I will say trust God. I mean, really learning to do multicultural ministry is is a science, and, I mean, I don't think every pastor or everybody have that, knowledge per se, but we all have the spirit of God that moves towards others.
Hernando Munoz:So I I will just say if that's someone out there, a pastor that has been thinking out that about that, I I will say that's God's heart. God's heart moves for those who are coming to our doors and moving from other places. And even if they don't have it all, if they don't know, they don't need to, but my invitation will be follow that and and and, enjoy it. It's a fun ride. It's a it's a beautiful journey to to dive into, and it is a responsibility as well.
Hernando Munoz:It's part of the great commission too. So, and on on the road, God will will provide. God will bring God will teach us. We will learn. Like, don't be afraid to just learn and and be open.
Hernando Munoz:And, as much as, the the the Canadian church needs needs to learn to work with immigrant churches. The immigrant church also needs to learn how to be part of the Canadian church, which is also important that we can also integrate to, a Canadian church, to the Canadian culture. So it's it's a process. It's not an easy process. It's very complex, but I feel where there is a vision from God, and God has just touched a heart to do it, there is great opportunity for both sides.
Hernando Munoz:So the Canadian church blesses an immigrant church, but then also the immigrant church brings something that will sparkle things in the Canadian church and
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Hernando Munoz:This ripple effect that that will continue working and extending the kingdom.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I mean, and there is so much you can learn and experience from new Canadian churches. And so to have that listening and that humble posture is is just so very important. What what is God doing in Latin America today? Some of our listeners might not be aware of just how much has changed in just a few very short decades in Latin America.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. So, I can give an example, firsthand example experiences. When we came to faith 3 years ago, in Bogota, this is Bogota, Colombia, is the capital of Colombia. And our church was one of the fewest churches in Bogota, and it was a very large church. It was 500 people at that moment.
Hernando Munoz:And that, to today, this ministry has grown to been a ministry of 70,000 people
Geoff Dresser:Wow.
Hernando Munoz:In Bogota in 30 years. So the growth is, is, is been just dramatic. And there is other, maybe, 5, 6 churches the same size in Colombia. Multiple churches have grown. Denominations have have been established, media, schools, so really even politics and people being able to enter the political arena as a as Christians, which I I was saying 3 years ago, we had a a declaration in the constitution saying this is a Catholic country.
Hernando Munoz:So things like that has changed very fast. So, I I feel now, people from Latin America are also now looking outside and sending missionaries, international workers to other parts of the world. So I will say a region that just 30, 40 years ago was a missions field primarily, very enriched, has now turned into a sending region, sending workers
Rob Chartrand:Amazing.
Hernando Munoz:Into the world in 34 years. So that's just the the pace of how things are changing. And, yeah, there is it changed the climate. There is still lot of things that, need need a lot of prayer intervention, a lot of problems and troubles and instability that we can see, but god's work has not stopped. You know, even the world is getting worse and worse.
Hernando Munoz:God's church keeps growing and growing, and Latin America is a testament of how just God is visiting this region of the world in much need, in spiritual need. But now there is solid ministries coming out of Latin America and expanding, into the world as well. Yeah. So it creates other needs as well, theological training.
Rob Chartrand:Right.
Hernando Munoz:I'm I'm not I don't know, but, yeah, it's been a a real gift.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well and if you turn back the clock to say the early 1900, the the center of Christianity in the world, in other words, where there were the most Christians and Christianity had the greatest influence was Europe and North America. But now you fast forward to 2010 and now to 2024, the center of the Christianity is no longer there in the Western world. It's in Africa, South America, and Asia. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:That's where God is working the most in the world today. It's incredible.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, it all connects, I guess, because a lot of, of the revivals and work that began in America, Europe had a benefit in the Southern Hemispheres. Yeah. Well, talk
Rob Chartrand:to us about that. You have your you have your you're you're working on your PhD dissertation or you finished it. And, this is kind of an area of expertise to you. So talk to us about, the Neo charismatic movement, 3rd wave Pentecostalism, and the effect on Latin America.
Hernando Munoz:Well, very much of, Christianity in the southern hemisphere is is what we would call Pentecostal charismatic Christianity.
Geoff Dresser:Mhmm.
Hernando Munoz:And, basically, it's just to say or just to look at how really god's operation in the world was so remarkable and is so evident that that was kind of, what changed hearts. I mean, there's not the time in Latin America. There was not the time to, establish institutions or develop, you know, tradition. Nothing, none, none of that was there. It was preaching, preaching of the gospel by, people from from North America and Europe who moved in the spirit of revival, actually.
Hernando Munoz:They they they they were radical. They they gave everything. They trust everything. They and they knew, God was in the in in the move, and the the the gospel needed to be preached in order to fulfill the great commission. So it was out of this revivalist heart and intention that, the the the the more traditional churches moved to reach the
Rob Chartrand:world.
Hernando Munoz:And out of that, came Christianity in the Southern Hemisphere. So, I think it's a very fresh expression of of Christianity. It came out of love from, European American churches, but from God and and just how God has manifest because then there is historical strongholds in in in these regions that have been in darkness for so long. I mean, can you imagine that, 2000 years of Christianity and only after 2000 years, we can say that there is there is an a significant expression of of Christ Church in these areas. That's a lot of years for for regions where we have enjoyed, these countries being established on the foundations of Christian Christianity and the word of God.
Hernando Munoz:We we didn't have that. We didn't have we and and the expression that we received, it it was a very conquest, like, it came through violence and and and all of that.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Hernando Munoz:So, I mean, we're there was a lot of need, and and only a mighty word of God could have done that. And God has manifested vastly in in in doing this work. So, and I think something that I was writing about in in my school work is how we write a theology that that is is birthed out of this context that is that is not built on I mean, on the one part, we do follow a tradition of Christian theology because Mhmm. Because there is a tradition of Christian theology. But on the other side, we're so different in culture, in how we perceive God.
Hernando Munoz:We have so different sensibilities. How we approach to God and how we tell this story of God from our own culture and our our own hearts. So that was one part of my studies, kind of trying to write a perspective, a theological perspective that represents Latino culture. Mhmm. And the the whole point is we start by experience.
Hernando Munoz:We don't start by rationality or by systems. We actually start by experience. And and we believe we we can believe experience actually are proper grounds to recognize God's move and and then build theology, of course, in line with biblical our biblical our scriptures and and other theology. So that's where I was reflecting on on on my work is, well, what can we learn from this experience of people being transformed? So the key the key idea in my writing is transformation of lives as they work to the Holy Spirit.
Hernando Munoz:How can we build a theology of that?
Rob Chartrand:So I didn't prep you for this, but, what was one of your best discoveries in doing this dissertation journey?
Hernando Munoz:I think it wasn't actually I mean, it's nothing new.
Geoff Dresser:Mhmm.
Hernando Munoz:But it's it it was more like solidifies something that actually transformations of life are the work of the Holy Spirit. And this is something, I mean, it we say it and it's it sounds like, of course, it is. But then there is a theology, and there is a theology of God's action in the world. When we say God changed people, I mean, there is a theology. There is an a strong theology of that, and there is a theology in in something that we share very much in Christianity that is salvation.
Hernando Munoz:And it's to say, actually, transformations of lives is salvation. It's just salvation in display. And if we hear someone's testimony, we can actually build theology out of that because that's salvation in display. And and we can also learn of God's operation in the world through the Holy Spirit, how he changed lives, how he acts. So that's that was kind of Yeah.
Hernando Munoz:Where I was getting at with transformation of life
Geoff Dresser:So good.
Hernando Munoz:Of the Holy Spirit.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well, I I just marvel at, like, in one lifetime, like, since, like, the eighties, what God has done in Latin America is just it's astounding. Astounding. Yeah. So I wonder as we finish up here, if you could share a final word of encouragement with our ministry leaders.
Rob Chartrand:There are people listening in from all across Canada, on this day, and, just share just share a final word of encouragement for them.
Hernando Munoz:Yeah. No. And, and thank you so much, Auroch, for letting me share my story and just looking today at the, the story of Latin American church in Canada and this community. I think we can be very encouraged for what God is doing in the world. And, you know, I think we we can now that we know how the church is growing in in the southern hemispheres, look at that and say, oh, look what God is doing out there, but what about here?
Hernando Munoz:And and and and I think, for me, moving from Latin America to Canada, Canada has become my home. The country that I pray for, the country where we stand as a church, this is my land. This is my country for me that I kind of, have taken and have claimed for for God. And and, I think we have our own struggles culturally, with being a voice or losing our voice, our Christian voice in the in the society and culture. But but I I I'm very encouraged and and seeing that at work in my needs, in in my church, and and and, really, god God's kingdom, is is many time working in invisible ways or or way ways are not perceived, publicly or out there, but it doesn't stop.
Hernando Munoz:The kingdom of God doesn't stop. And there is seasons. We go through different seasons. Sometimes we see more fruit. Sometimes we don't.
Hernando Munoz:But the word is good. The the the good seed, the seed is good. The the seed is good, and it it will bear fruit. And, I feel so much that we are to protect our hearts, like, giving personally because it's not an easy task. I mean, we're against up, all the darkness and against up as many things in the world, but I feel it's it's good to protect our hearts and, just being hopeful and cheerful for the things that God has in store for each one of us.
Hernando Munoz:Certainly, he's the lord of the of the world. Certainly, he's he's moving powerfully, and I don't know what God might be speaking to anyone. I think he speaks differently to everyone. But, I think we're we're doing something good in taking courage and trusting God and and his reality, going back to what we have experienced in Latin America, we didn't have seminary. We didn't have, traditions.
Hernando Munoz:We didn't have Christianity in the school. We didn't have Christianity out there. We were against the current all the way, but, greater was the one that was, you know, with his people. So I think no matter what we are facing up, what God is bringing, or what is in front of us, there is greater power on us. And that's, something we we we trust.
Hernando Munoz:We trust God. God is God is greater. Greater is his power on us, and he'll give us every provision that we need. And when we're in ministry, he give us he has more resources and more opportunities than what we might need. But there is seasons and, yeah, if if we keep waiting or or, just trust what the Lord does, we'll we'll see the fruit of of the ministry.
Hernando Munoz:And that that's my prayer for everyone that they will see fruitful ministry in their lives and will be encouraged for what the Lord is doing with them. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Amen. Amen. Good word, brother. Hernando Munoz, thank you for joining us on Church in the North.
Hernando Munoz:My pleasure, Rob, and thank you so much for letting me share it and for for the time together.
Rob Chartrand:You've been listening to the Church in the North podcast, a production of Briarcrest College. To learn more about Briarcrest, visit briarcrest.ca. We all know that when something is good, it's worth sharing. So why not pass on today's episode to a ministry leader or someone who will find it helpful? Also, don't forget to leave us a review, share your comments, or hit that subscribe button.
Rob Chartrand:We love questions and suggestions, so email us at podcast at briarcrest.ca. And for more information about the podcast and our hosts, visit church in the north dot ca. Thanks for listening. Until next time.
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