Rob Chartrand (00:04.342)
Well, I'm excited to have on the podcast today, Phil Collins. He is the lead pastor of Willow Park Church in Kelowna. Phil, welcome to the Church in the North podcast.
Philip Collins (00:15.977)
Thank you. It's good to be here with you. Nice to see you again, Rob.
Rob Chartrand (00:21.122)
Yeah, you as well. It's been a while. Hey, I want to let our listeners know a little bit about your story. I think it's important that they get to know a little bit of the background on you. So let's go back to your first start in ministry, back to those early days. How did you get started in ministry?
Philip Collins (00:41.557)
Well, I was mentored by an evangelist who came to our church and I ended up traveling with him, carrying his books, listened to his numerous endless sermons. It was fabulous. It was a really good way. I traveled around Britain, went to Canada, went to the States with him, then worked at my father's and my grandfather's furniture factory in between to earn enough money to travel.
And then I was grabbed by Youth for Christ when I was about 19, 20, and I became over the next decade, decade and a half, a Youth for Christ National Evangelist, creative teams, outreaches, and citywide missions. So then I ended up pastoring in a church that I got saved in. I'd always been part of that church, became a CEO of a mission agency,
At 44 I moved to Colona, British Columbia, to the wonderful Willow Park Church.
Rob Chartrand (01:48.362)
Wow, I mean, that's quite a journey from street preacher to pastor, and then to end up in Canada. I think I can remember the early days when I first met you, I think it was about 19 or 20, and I was going to a small Bible college in Eston, Saskatchewan, and you came into a, kind of like a youth drop-in center, it might've been in Swift Current, and you were one of the preachers, there was a whole lot of
drama going on. I can't remember if you were working with some organization with its life force or street invaders, but that was quite some time ago. And now you've made your way to Canada. You are pastoring in Kelowna, British Columbia. Good choice on this election, by the way. A lot warmer than most places in Canada. But why don't you talk to us a little bit about that? How does a like a Pentecostal charismatic background
Philip Collins (02:38.517)
Thank you.
Rob Chartrand (02:47.198)
street preacher and up at a Mennonite brethren church in Kelowna, British Columbia.
Philip Collins (02:55.113)
Well, of course it wasn't just any Mennonite Brethren Church. It was quite a progressive, outreaching, multi-site, it had strong links historically to Willow Creek when that was a massive thing in terms of outreach and leadership. So it felt I was coming into a contemporary, dynamic,
a kind of contemporary dynamic church. And there was a good synergy in those kind of times and that interview that took place. A really good sense of, yes, this church is serious about mission, about evangelism. And remember, I got converted in a quite a tight evangelical church, a kind of Plymouth Brethren. So...
Rob Chartrand (03:53.802)
Right.
Philip Collins (03:55.665)
And I'd worked with Youth for Christ, so I'd learned to always appreciate the vastness of the body of Christ, the diversity. I worked with Anglicans, Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, everybody Youth for Christ works with. So I used to, it didn't feel too big of a jump, to be honest, and the church had a heart for prayer and had a heart for evangelism, and that was fantastic.
Rob Chartrand (04:25.322)
Yeah. So obviously it was a good fit. How did you hear about the church in Kelowna? Like how was that brought to your attention?
Philip Collins (04:36.925)
You know how God drops things in your heart? I was 19 and God dropped something into my heart that I would end up in British Columbia pastoring. Weird. It's one of those signs that make you wonder. Like really? But when I married Shell, she was not interested in coming. And so we pastored our first church in England, the church I got saved in, as a rebellious.
wild teenager. And it took 11 years for the Holy Spirit to directly speak to her and say, let's go. It was just a big jump and we were very happy where we were. And she had been to Edmonton when we were on our honeymoon, not actually the honeymoon, but the year of our honeymoon. And I took her to Edmonton in February and it was minus 40. And she said, really?
Rob Chartrand (05:20.673)
Yep.
Rob Chartrand (05:35.618)
Hahaha
Philip Collins (05:36.753)
you want to move here. So, but yeah, one night the Lord just spoke to her and to her, said it was time to move and time to take that step and a friend of mine from Grand Prairie said you should check out Willow Park. They have, they're always looking for campus pastors and I did and instantly boom, something hit our hearts and we knew that this was in the providential
And at the end, if I hadn't ended up at Willow Park, I think I'd still be in England. Because it became the calling to the church and the assignment rather than to even to the country, I guess. But it was a very strong calling.
Rob Chartrand (06:07.024)
Mm, wow.
Rob Chartrand (06:25.15)
Wow. So what year was that Phil? How long have you been serving at Willow Park?
Philip Collins (06:30.889)
14 years. Yes. Yeah. I think longevity brings strength and stability. And of course, I had to leap through a whole range of changes and COVID. So I feel like I'm just beginning again at this moment.
Rob Chartrand (06:32.774)
Okay, wow, that's a good run. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (06:52.042)
Yeah, yeah. Well, your church is multi-site. There's several campuses. So why don't we talk about that for a little bit? When did your church become multi-site? And maybe talk to us about how that all works together with your church. Are your campuses similar? Are they different?
Philip Collins (07:18.505)
The church became multi-site before I ever was here. Kind of the early 2000s, it was at a necessity because the main campus only really seats 750, and they were exceeding that, and they had gone to, you know, four or five services of varying sizes, but it was great. It was...
Rob Chartrand (07:43.598)
Hmm. Yeah.
Philip Collins (07:47.337)
booming. It was after the 2003 fires, there was a different feel in the city and the church. So it was necessity. And they went for a very, you know, good model, which was cuttick approach of recreating Willow Park in different places all over the city. So basically that, that spot
they could have the Willow Park experience anywhere in the city. So that's how it happened. And I came into that.
Rob Chartrand (08:18.528)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (08:27.03)
So since then, have you retained that model or have you changed it up a little bit?
Philip Collins (08:35.049)
Well, there was, when I arrived, there was already the, you know, the, the shift had happened. I mean, the previous pastor, Mark Birch was, you know, a genius, he's brilliant and, and so gifted. And, and yet there was a, there was a resistance when I arrived. I think, you know, people felt it at this era.
Rob Chartrand (08:49.378)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (09:04.029)
towards having somebody preaching on the screen, and there was a real sense, we need to change the model. So when I came in, the model already started to change dramatically. And coming from the European experience, basically we developed a model of campuses that were joined together by budget, joined together by...
Rob Chartrand (09:15.948)
Right.
Philip Collins (09:33.461)
values and mission and joining together by staff togetherness and yet each campus could create its own strategy for its outreach and evangelism. There was a shift at that point 14 years ago to be missional and relational and local so I kind of flowed with that.
Rob Chartrand (09:56.554)
Yeah. So does that mean then your teaching is does that incorporate video still or is it all primarily campus pastors doing the preaching? How do you guys work that out?
Philip Collins (10:11.189)
No, predominantly it's campus pastors doing the preaching.
So it's definitely them.
Rob Chartrand (10:16.919)
Yeah, so.
Rob Chartrand (10:21.182)
Okay, so how do you guys work that out at your end? I know there's different ways of doing it, but do you have a teaching team or do you have a curriculum? How do you guys, do you give them independent messages? They can do whatever they want. How do you work that out in such a way that it preserves kind of like the DNA of Willow Park?
Philip Collins (10:44.461)
Yes, I guess we do of course have a teaching team which are made up of the campus pastors and we agree the curriculum, the direction. All of our pastors have been through kind of our spiritual mentoring about what is important to us, what our values are and what our message is.
Rob Chartrand (10:49.484)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (11:10.173)
So even though there is freedom to go off script, if you like, and even preach a series that is different at different times for the need of that community, we have so ingrained our kind of spiritual and philosophical approach that there's a good level of unity between us.
Rob Chartrand (11:20.558)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (11:34.818)
Hmm. Well, and I suppose every campus pastor needs a break as well. So they're going to have some pinch hitters coming in to preach at their campuses as well. Did they do those folks, those other preachers come into the team teaching meeting? Or do you just allow the local campus to work it out?
Philip Collins (11:58.001)
Yeah, we allow them. I mean, generally, the preachers that we use are within our own network, not always, of course, and usually they're in line with what's happening, or preachers within the campuses. So we encourage to develop that. And we're blessed with, you know, quite a number of retired pastors who just love what we're doing and the kind of emphasis that we have.
So they come into line. I mean, vast majority of our staff are in mentoring and church renewal mentoring. So we feel very unified with our communication and what we're about.
Rob Chartrand (12:35.586)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (12:44.778)
Yeah, oh, that's great. You know, one of the criticisms of the multi-site model is it can be very leader-centered, with one core leader as the preacher, right? And that puts it in a place of vulnerability, but it sounds like you at Willow Park are working really hard to develop local preachers and a team of preachers.
Philip Collins (13:12.581)
Yes, I think we are trying to. It sounds better than, you put it better than probably, than the reality. It's always a, for all of us, you know, getting that balance between the primary communicators and others and raising people is a balance. But I think we're definitely moving in the right direction for kind of body.
Rob Chartrand (13:41.473)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (13:42.261)
industry.
Rob Chartrand (13:44.094)
Yeah, it's aspirational at least. And on your best weeks, those are the stories we tell. And then on the worst weeks, we just kind of keep quiet. Ha ha ha. Ha ha.
Philip Collins (13:57.117)
We believe our own Facebook posts.
Rob Chartrand (14:00.402)
That's right. You have an interesting lifestyle. I mean, if anyone follows you on social media, you spend a lot of time running and hiking. And I mean like a lot of times. So you do things that most men your age or my age wouldn't normally do. So I wanna dive into that for a bit. How do you...
Philip Collins (14:04.202)
Well...
Rob Chartrand (14:29.446)
How do you do your spare time? What do you do for fun, Phil?
Philip Collins (14:35.237)
Yeah, I, well, for fun, of course I love to ski, but I do love to hike and I do love to run marathons and I've done ultra marathons badly. And I'm very, like this morning, this weekend, I spoke nine times because we had a retreat, set free retreat and I am the communicator for that. So this morning I got up.
did a long cup of coffee, and then just hit the trail and did 10K, and got excited and invigorated to be on your podcast. So yeah, but the truth is, the truth is, Rob, this all started for me when I was young, my granddad,
Rob Chartrand (15:08.962)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (15:32.841)
used to take me out on long walks through the Worcestershire countryside. And the kind of same kind of words and landscape that Tolkien used to walk in. And in fact, I used to sleep in small old caves where probably Tolkien got his idea about the Hobbit cave from. And I found that to deal with stress in my younger years that I would walk. The Romans had a saying,
Rob Chartrand (15:51.749)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (16:03.085)
You can solve any problem if you walk farther enough. And when I was in my kind of mid to late 20s, I was preaching all over Britain. I was on planes and preaching at United Youth events. And I guess I had a profile, but I had lost contact with the Lord. And I took...
pen and I wrote in my diary, in my planner, the first Wednesday of every month I would go on a prayer walk and spend a day away with God. And I did that for 20 years. And that changed my life and it combined two things, my love of walking and adventure and my desire to walk and to talk to the Lord.
I just did this religiously and every month it was eight hours away, 10, 15 miles of walking, stopping at small cafes to journal and have a bacon sandwich, going to a pub lunch and sitting in a 1,000 year old parish church to meditate for an hour.
Rob Chartrand (17:26.766)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (17:29.925)
every time I did it and it grew out of that day away with God that Rob changed my life. And then I started jogging because I was unhealthy because of the lifestyle. I say that my soul was greasy with too much Indian food, fish and chips and fast food from being on the road all the time and I'd lost connection with the Lord and so
I had to do something or I'd burn out and be out of ministry. And that's what saved me.
Rob Chartrand (18:02.21)
Hmm. Well, bacon sandwiches and lingering in pubs at noon hour probably didn't help either.
Philip Collins (18:10.559)
It was good though.
Rob Chartrand (18:15.146)
Yeah, you know, I just, so much of that resonates with me when I was living in Edmonton, like twice a year I would take a retreat and I'd go to Jasper and I'd find like the cheapest hotel I could find online and I'd hole up in the room and in the morning I would spend the whole morning just in quiet contemplative prayer and then in the afternoon I would just go hike for
hours and hours and hours and then I come back to a coffee shop and I journal and then the evening was just kind of relaxation. So I do this three three-day retreat a couple times a year and I just my soul just needed it. I mean if I if I didn't do that I just felt stretched so thin in ministry. So there is a deep connection between walking and running and prayer. Have you found that?
Philip Collins (19:00.404)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (19:07.405)
Oh, completely. Absolutely. I mean, on my 50th birthday, I went to the Tchoucaltons, you know, in Northern BC by Bella Coola. And it's where one of the Alone episodes was shot. I don't know if you watch Alone, you know, the...
Rob Chartrand (19:20.568)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (19:27.882)
I do. I love it. My wife and I have discovered it recently and yeah, we can't get enough of it. We can talk for hours about that, but I'm sorry. Keep going.
Philip Collins (19:35.814)
I
Yeah, well, I'm with you on that, but I went and I spent seven days in a small cabin on a lake and was dropped off by a float plane and just me alone with God. So I've sort of done adventures like that where there's been the West Coast Trail. I just in June did a 300-kilometre prayer walk across Britain from the Irish Sea where St. Bede's
Rob Chartrand (19:48.791)
Wow.
Philip Collins (20:09.021)
all the way across to Robin Hoods Bay through the three national parks, the Lake District, the Yorkshire Dales, the North Yorkshire Moors. And that was, yeah, that was amazing and absolutely loved combining that rhythm of walking and praying and of course
you know, a full English breakfast every morning in each of the hostels that I stayed in. But the Lord met me on those mountains and refreshed me and spoke to me. And I think my congregation are sick of me telling stories about from my 10 day trek across Britain.
Rob Chartrand (20:39.019)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (20:55.382)
Yeah. Well, you know, we live in a culture of such, you know, busyness, information, content, distraction. Do you find it difficult? I mean, living in this culture, then suddenly finding yourself, say in a cabin in the woods for seven days with absolute silence?
Philip Collins (21:22.041)
Not difficult. I didn't. I found it incredibly moving and I experienced a level of emotion that I hadn't experienced before when I did that. And I mean when you cry in the when you cry out in prayer in the wilderness and literally nobody can hear you scream.
Rob Chartrand (21:41.57)
We'll talk about that.
Philip Collins (21:53.509)
you know, it was very emotional. What came up was grief, because we pushed so much away in our lives. But when I was alone and silent with the Lord for that time, and just alone and silent with myself, I did see...
things and emotions and battles bubble to the surface. And I, certainly the aloneness and the quiet, you did some serious, and you see that in a secular way in the life of those who are on the History Channel Alone series, because some of them can't last two days because fear grabs them.
Rob Chartrand (22:22.797)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (22:41.771)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (22:49.237)
contemplative, prayerful approach, a more philosophical approach, you know, last the length. So yeah, I connected with a deeper part of my soul in a way that I hadn't done or rarely have done. It was powerful.
Rob Chartrand (22:54.872)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (23:08.798)
Yeah, yeah, I think we can often think that solitude is just going to be this blissful, joyful experience. But when Christ went into the wilderness, he count encountered the enemy of his soul and encountered the devil, right? So solitude will often you are confronted with sometimes your dark side, which you're able to kind of tuck away in the midst of distraction, but
Philip Collins (23:27.189)
Yes, good point.
Rob Chartrand (23:38.102)
when you're in the wilderness, there's no posturing. There's nobody, you know, unless you're out there taking selfies, which you really shouldn't be, you know, there's nothing except you and yourself and God and spiritual forces, I guess too. So yeah, it's a different experience.
Philip Collins (23:53.233)
Yeah, I've really fostered being a very extrovert individual and kind of an evangelist in my, I'm a strange mix because I'm a pastor because I love people and pastorally travelling with people and but I am an evangelist so I have this weird mixed gift but I have fostered a
contemplative, deep, meditative practice within my life now. And it's not unusual for me to contemplate or to meditate for an hour a day at the moment. And that's why by meditation, I mean, you know, of course the beauty of Christian meditation, which is taking scripture or taking a phrase or taking...
you know, I've stepped into memorization is a big part of my spiritual discipline and memorizing. So I memorized all the events of the books of Mark. And so I often sit and just think my way through the book of Mark, each scene and pray about each scene, or I sit with a Psalm and I, you know,
take that and I think in terms of the stress of being a pastor, fostering a contemplative walk is healing for our brains and healing for our souls and so much empirical research about this anyway, but it's mainly to do with Eastern traditions, Buddhism.
Rob Chartrand (25:35.202)
Hmm. Yeah.
Philip Collins (25:47.357)
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the ancient Christian practices of the desert fathers of being and abiding in the presence of Jesus has changed my life, changed it.
Rob Chartrand (25:53.932)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (25:59.862)
Hmm. So when you head off on these excursions, do you have a plan that you kind of set it up in advance and this is what I'm going to do? Or do you just go with the flow? Or is it somewhere in between where you're improvising?
Philip Collins (26:20.009)
In the early days, because I've been doing this for 20 plus years, I would definitely follow a pattern. So my particular walk that I used to do, the first part of it would be definitely confession and praying about all the things I wanted to bring to the Lord. The second part of the journey was very much about forgiveness, because I wanted to...
you pick up a lot of rubbish when you're a pastor. And if you don't deal with the damage that you pick up, I'd, and our weapon is forgiveness and confession. So I do forgiveness. Then I'd kind of land at my little outdoor cafe on top of a hill. And they got to know me really, really well over 20 years, you know, if you like, over all those years. And...
Rob Chartrand (27:03.054)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (27:18.865)
and then I'd have my bacon sandwich and a journal. The next part, I would then pray about my future, the dreams, the visions. And when you're young, in your 30s, you've got a lot of vision about my dreams and visions. And then I would end up at the parish church and then I would sit for an hour in silence.
Rob Chartrand (27:23.172)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (27:40.216)
Right?
Philip Collins (27:50.233)
And then the last part was sort of as the spirit led. And so I found that has helped me. Going right the way back to learning to pray the Lord's Prayer in six sections and spending 10 minutes on each section gave me the ability to spend an hour a day praying. And it changed my life. So I did use that system, yes. Yeah, good question.
Rob Chartrand (28:01.434)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (28:10.604)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (28:16.458)
Yeah. No, that's a that's a great pattern to follow. You know, and on my retreats, I typically, I had this book of prayer and at the back of it had what seven or eight different spiritual retreats that he kind of plans that you could go I just found following a plan was far better for me than just kind of, you know,
going and improvising and making up as I go along. And I tried that a couple of times and I came back just feeling like it was unproductive and unfruitful, just following the whims of my own fancy or my mind. So I do think a framework is certainly helpful.
Philip Collins (28:59.633)
Yeah, yeah, definitely, you're right. And there are so many good frameworks to look at and to follow. And you know, when you develop the discipline of writing and journaling, and you can discern what God has laid on your heart through journaling, that's an incredible gift to people who are carrying a lot in their lives like pastors. To journal.
Rob Chartrand (29:14.325)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (29:29.585)
to pray, to listen, and to follow a format, and to do exactly what you've done in going to Jasper. But the problem is you've got to keep it up. And now you're living in Brichrest, you're gonna have to have winter walks and really work hard at your discipline to find your way into a coulee or something to be alone with the Lord.
Rob Chartrand (29:41.825)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (29:51.723)
Hahaha
Rob Chartrand (30:01.178)
Let me tell you, brother, it is a challenge here, but I'm figuring it out. I'm figuring it out. There is an indoor walking place, but if it's listen, if it's 3540 below out and then it's windy, which it often is in Saskatchewan, it is just unmanageable. You can't go outside. So you do have to find a coolie or a community center where you can just walk and put on your headphones and.
try and zone out. That's probably the best bet or to try and hit the mountains. I mean, that's obviously an option too.
Philip Collins (30:33.769)
Oh, you've inspired me again, just with your little cheap hotel room, prayer, journal. You know, let's go for it. I've got roots around Kelowna, which is what you say is like walking roots, 10 mile roots, and I'll go off and that's exactly what I'll do. I'll combine the things that I love with praying to the Lord.
Rob Chartrand (30:48.631)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (30:58.814)
Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Well, I mean, now this prayer value and impetus in your own life has certainly trickled down into the life of your church. And I think you've already shared your church was already prayerful before you got there. But the prayer and renewal movement that's come out of Steinbach has really played an important role in the life of your church. So why don't we talk about that for a bit? How did that come about? And how is it bearing fruit in your church's life?
Philip Collins (31:31.677)
Well, it was about, oh gosh, maybe 12 years ago when I ended up being invited to come to meet Pastor Ray Dirksen. And I was really amazed. I mean, obviously Southland had grown from 150 people to 4,000. And they had a-
Rob Chartrand (31:56.502)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (31:58.101)
prayer meeting with 1,500 people attending it, and they'd kept this prayer meeting going for years every month. And yet, Ray himself is a great communicator, but he was such a humble man, and he was one of the rare people I had met who actually lived what he taught. He spent hours away with God alone.
And I was really touched by this. And he was eager to start to mentor pastors in the principles he had learned in growing Southland to the size that it was. And so I joined a mentoring group with him. There's me, another guy, maybe three of us. And we began just listening to him every week for one hour and just...
You know, he would write material, he would share with us, he would show us stuff, he would write it. And we started implementing different areas. Some of it in those early days went well, some of it went badly, I made loads of mistakes. But you know, 10 years on, we've got 2000 pastors in mentoring. And we have, you know, 300,
400 in Canada, and every week for 32 weeks of the year, a pastor comes online with a coach and we work through the materials. It's basically about being renewed as a pastor in your love and intimacy with Jesus. It's about being transformed in your character.
through confession and through forgiveness and through grappling with those difficulties, those strongholds, and then about leading well in your church. So, and so it's been a fabulous journey and not without its bumps and difficulties at times, but it has...
Philip Collins (34:24.697)
You know, this weekend I ran a set free weekend, which Ray wrote. This is my 26th weekend teaching this material in my church. And to see the amount of changed lives has been amazing. And the prayer culture, it's the hardest thing to build in a church. So most of us don't try it. But to build...
Rob Chartrand (34:41.41)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (34:50.25)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (34:53.233)
True prayer culture is tough, but it's part of our calling to do that. It's been amazing to see the change in the pastor's lives and in my life through the journey.
Rob Chartrand (35:08.618)
Yeah, yeah. So do you do a lot of the...
practices that are involved in the Steinback movements during your Sunday morning worship gatherings or do you do it in a different environment?
Philip Collins (35:26.921)
Well, the practices are very much about being, I mean, the practice may not be seen on a Sunday morning as much. The practices, I'll give you an example. My board of elders, 12 of them, they've grown so much in the Lord that if we go away for a prayer retreat, which we do every year, they will pray.
for five to eight hours, aren't serious. And we will look at the life of the church and we will write down all the needs, we will work out all the people that have been hurt or not, we'll confess sin, we'll ask for forgiveness, we'll pray God's blessing. That's the real shift.
Rob Chartrand (35:59.24)
Wow.
Rob Chartrand (36:22.828)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (36:23.101)
You know, I go for every couple of months, I go with my chairman of the board for a day's prayer walk and we walk and we perhaps spend, last time we spent four hours together. We walk, we talk, we pray together about the church, about his family. I think that's where they see the biggest change. You see the spiritual dimension that can be formed in a board and then in the staff.
And in our job contracts, you know, with our pastors, we say, you know, we want you to take a retreat once a month and we want you to spend at least an hour a day in prayer every day as part of your job because you have to be praying and close to the Lord. They find it difficult to do, I'll be honest. So there are those principles, there are lots of principles, but those principles of closeness of Christ
Rob Chartrand (37:01.891)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (37:16.467)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (37:23.702)
is what we're trying to foster all the time.
Rob Chartrand (37:27.374)
Hmm. Yeah. And that's incredible because it's actually scripted right into the DNA of your church. I mean, even including job descriptions. And that's almost permission giving. I mean, if pastors, you know, sometimes our work is so busy that we just find it difficult to pray. And sometimes we feel guilty to pray, which is ironic. Guilty to pray because we have so many pressing needs.
Philip Collins (37:51.186)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (37:54.71)
by making it a requirement, you're actually giving permission to your leaders to spend that time away.
Philip Collins (38:02.861)
Yes, and I'll give a quick example. I did a seminar for a mega church on how to spend a day away with God and do this. And at the end of it, the senior pastor said, that's great, you can all do that, but on your own time. Boom. Okay, but are we radical enough? Do our people in our church, when I say I've spent Wednesday away with God walking and praying,
Rob Chartrand (38:21.17)
Right, right. Yes. Yeah.
Philip Collins (38:32.073)
Do they go, well, it should be working, or do they feel inspired to go deep into Jesus themselves? I've never had any pushback from congregants when they hear that a pastor has gone away for a day in a month to seek the face of the Lord about the job that he did. They expect it, but we can lose that. I don't know, people have different opinions.
Rob Chartrand (38:42.263)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (38:59.921)
And I thought, oh, okay, so everything's awesome until that moment you've got to, you're not really releasing staff to exercise. Because they, perhaps because people don't believe that they do it or they use it as a way of skiving off. The hardest thing we do, that's an English word, skiving. That means, you know.
Philip Collins (39:25.625)
Yeah, what would be a Canadian word for bunking off or something? I suppose that would be bunking off. But, but
Rob Chartrand (39:32.321)
That's another non-Canadian word you're sharing there. Slacking off.
Philip Collins (39:36.765)
How about memorandum? Slacking? Sure. Yes, give me another one, I don't know. We don't, prayer is the hardest thing we will ever do. It's the hardest thing to build in your congregation and for a pastor, it's the hardest thing. And when you start to move in the prayer realm, that's when the enemy attacks. You get attacks from every direction. So it is the hardest thing to do.
Rob Chartrand (39:41.102)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (40:07.454)
Yeah, well, and especially corporate prayer. I mean, most churches can probably attest to the reality that our prayer meetings are very, very small attended and half a dozen people praying before the service or half a dozen people on a Tuesday night. The faithful are there praying, but for everyone else, their lives are very busy and the busy work seems to be what really gets the job done. Whereas in reality, it's the prayer room
really gets the job done.
Philip Collins (40:39.785)
Well, I'll tell you a fact, and this is one of the church renewal principles, if the senior pastor isn't leading the prayer movement, then there'll never be a prayer movement. So if you, it's kind of the Jim Symboler kind of idea, you know, I mean, that guy loves prayer. And I think it's that people say to me, well, who leads the prayer ministry at your church?
Rob Chartrand (40:48.622)
Mm-hmm. Hmm, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (40:56.106)
Yep.
Rob Chartrand (41:02.516)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (41:10.257)
as if it's gonna be some kind of prophetic individual in the corner that floats around. And I look them in the face and I say, I lead it. I'm the person. I'm at every prayer meeting. I lead the main prayer meetings because if we delegate the responsibility to somebody or some group.
it gets smaller and smaller until it evaporates. But if you put the message that the lead pastor is behind prayer, you know, I've hung out a bit with, I'm sure you'll interview him, Henry Shaw. I love Henry because actually he makes it his mission to be at every prayer meeting and to be present. And I think, I think, I think the answer is, and in charismatic churches this happened,
Rob Chartrand (41:56.502)
Wow. Hmm.
Philip Collins (42:07.677)
you know, and Pentecostal churches, the pastor says, there's this group of people that are the prayer warriors, then the prayer warriors end up being the group that are by fault leading the vision of the church through everything that they're hearing God telling them. And the pastor is feeling the bang against the prayer people because they're going, we should do this, we should do that, let's do this and bind this and do this.
Rob Chartrand (42:23.264)
Yeah, yeah.
Philip Collins (42:37.309)
and the poor pastor is overwhelmed. And yet that's all wrong. The pastor should be the leader, the one and shaping the culture. So then when people join my church and say, I've got this gift, ho, well, we've got the way we do it. And that's not how we do it around here, but this is our vision and this is how we do it. I think that makes a big difference for the culture of
Rob Chartrand (42:44.026)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (43:02.895)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (43:06.997)
prayer in a church.
Rob Chartrand (43:08.886)
Wow, yeah. Well, I don't know about any of our listeners out there, but I feel that pressing on me, Phil. So thanks for that word. That's a good stretch, a good stretch for us to think about that and to lean into it. I'm gonna change direction here for a minute here. And I think one of the questions on many minds is you're in Kelowna, so obviously the wildfire.
crisis has been top of mind for many people, at least it was about a month ago or so. But how did that affect your church community?
Philip Collins (43:49.049)
Well, of course, the whole city was on alert. And in fact, this evening, I've got the fire chief coming to speak to our men's group. We've got all-you-can-eat pizza evening for men. And I happen to be the chaplain of the fire department. So, you know...
Rob Chartrand (44:03.511)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (44:11.155)
Right, yes.
Philip Collins (44:16.449)
We have to be so thankful for the fire department in British Columbia and the provincial mechanisms that kick in and work and work and work. So I don't believe we had anybody in our congregation that lost us the house, maybe one building.
A lot of people were evacuated. It was a very tough and very stressful time. And I think now the real work is now beginning. And it was, yeah, it was a lot of praying, a lot of support. It was amazing how the church opened their homes to friends and families. It was amazing the way we got involved. We, historically...
have been the reception center for major events, the Merritt flood. Our building was used for that. I had a phone call off the fire department saying, can we move in tonight? And the answer was yes, take over our building and let's go for it. They then called back and said, actually we're going to stay where we are, but thank you. So I think for us as a church, the Lord whispered to me and said,
Rob Chartrand (45:17.697)
Okay.
Philip Collins (45:43.421)
the answer should always be yes. So we were in a yes response, yes to our neighbours, yes. But of course, where our church is, it was six miles away, seven miles away, and you could see it burning on that Thursday night. And there was fear and anxiety, it was terrible. But it's been surprising to see how people have...
Rob Chartrand (45:45.814)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (46:12.425)
jumped back, how systems have got in place, support has been there. And I think on the general, where the fires hit, there were high income houses and people had a lot of means. So it wasn't like some of the fires we've had in British Columbia with very poor communities. A lot of resources kicked in and people...
Rob Chartrand (46:27.71)
Right. Yeah.
Philip Collins (46:41.349)
seemed to manage really well. Others didn't and support was there and the food bank has been overwhelmed. And so it was interesting dynamic but the churches were amazing and they pulled together. But the last thing the Fire Chief wants is a load of Christians running around the place when there's a national emergency. So we have to step back and pray. The work is now being done through.
Rob Chartrand (46:50.297)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (47:02.855)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (47:09.433)
Samaritan's Purse that are here and other agencies that are doing ash shifting and so on. So, yes, it wasn't as massive as the 2003, but it was terrifying and homes were lost. It was so sad. I think about 190 structures.
Rob Chartrand (47:18.711)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (47:35.754)
Wow. Yeah. So as you were the fire chaplain during that time, you know that when the crisis is at its peak, what did that mean for you and your role?
Philip Collins (47:36.937)
Hmm, no.
Philip Collins (47:48.881)
Well, my role is very much supportive, and my role is very much available for the crews and for their families. So it's very much that pastoral, although I've got a fire kit to go out. The last thing they need is me kicking around. So it's a very supportive, encouraging role. And then now after, now the work begins with...
with fire people, members contacted me and sitting down and talking and chatting things through debriefing. They have a great system though, but it is traumatic. Some of them worked endlessly. Of course, 24 hours to keep the fires around away from structures on our side of the lake. And of course,
Rob Chartrand (48:37.623)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (48:49.513)
on the west side. So yeah, it's not as dynamic. American fire chaplains are a bit different from Canadian fire chaplains. They tend to chase the fire engine around and turn up and do aftercare, but British Columbia has so many systems in place.
Rob Chartrand (48:52.288)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (49:00.231)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (49:06.327)
Okay.
Philip Collins (49:14.069)
that we have to find our place as a church the best way to respond. And now is the time for that and that's happening.
Rob Chartrand (49:19.511)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah. I noticed in the past few years, you've been working on a counseling degree. Fascinating to me. And it's very uncommon for a lead pastor of a, of a large multi site church to suddenly take up counseling, at least the practice of it and learning that. So can you share with our listeners? What was it that kind of motivated you towards that?
Philip Collins (49:53.417)
Yeah, I've always been interested in freedom and healing. And we have run, you know, we do our retreats and we talk about healing, because of course that's what Jesus said in Isaiah 61, the spirit of the sovereign Lord is on me, to claim freedom for the poor and release of the captive.
Rob Chartrand (50:15.747)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (50:21.465)
And yet I was finding that in society...
Philip Collins (50:29.085)
The problems and the complexities have grown so much that I felt ill-equipped. And I do enjoy sitting with people. I do enjoy that conversation. And I've always enjoyed the past. I have lots of personal appointments, probably more than most. I love that. And I did feel that the Lord wanted me to step into doing a...
uh, a masters, it's to be my second masters, but in, uh, clinical counseling. And, and it has changed and because I want to see people find hope and healing and strength. And I also want to be able to understand when we talk about mental health issues, how to best respond when we know that 60% of our congregation suffer with.
Rob Chartrand (51:05.474)
Okay.
Philip Collins (51:29.557)
mild or strong forms of depression, anxiety, eating disorders, personality disorders, ADHD diagnosis, autism. The list goes on and our churches, I felt I had to step into this to really understand it to be of value.
Rob Chartrand (51:42.295)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (51:55.333)
And so I'm now doing my practicum. I've got real clients. I'm in a rehab center and I'm also, on my day off, I do a day, got clients there from Vancouver and the gangs, trauma counseling. I'm doing work with a Christian retreat center who specializes in counseling, pastors who have had trauma and burnt out and problems.
So I'm building my hours. I have to like get 150 hours. Rob, it has been enlightening and informing and it has changed my practice and care of people utterly as a pastor. And sometimes I think, did I really say that in the past? Oh no, oh no, that's terrible.
Rob Chartrand (52:40.854)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (52:50.583)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (52:54.321)
Does that communicate the heart? And that's what I'm doing.
Rob Chartrand (52:56.17)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, but you know, when you're a leader in a large church with multiple staff, I mean, you can't be, you can't, you don't have the capacity to be the, the healer to every individual member of your church. I mean, that would just be impossible. You'd have a lineup for days and you would burn out and you'd need a counselor yourself. So you said you've done a bit of practice of it.
Philip Collins (53:19.901)
Yeah. I like that.
Rob Chartrand (53:25.846)
Is there any other way that it finds its expression in your ministry? I think maybe your preaching has changed as a result. Is that, you know, what's, how is, how is counseling finding its way into your everyday ministry now?
Philip Collins (53:41.001)
Well, definitely, you know, what we call psycho education has affected the way that I view situations and deal with situations. So, and of course, it's unethical for me to do clinical counseling with my congregants in that way. So, I really, my role in the congregation is to be pastoral, but it's given me deeper skills to be pastoral, to be have empathy.
Rob Chartrand (53:46.796)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (53:52.235)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (53:59.666)
Right. Yep.
Philip Collins (54:12.597)
to help people find their own way and to challenge their own maladjusted thought patterns that are bringing distress to them. It's really helped me on that. And my hope is that I'll be able to educate my congregation about ways to deal with anxiety and stress because that's
predominantly what people are experiencing in our culture within through a Christ lens. Definitely may have helped my preaching in terms of not being so stereotypical, not being so swooping statements, because we preachers can use pop psychology and so kind of suddenly say, wow, you know,
Rob Chartrand (55:03.402)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (55:07.629)
Divorce is bad and it shows that every child, you know, children brought up in a single home are ten times more likely to do X, Y and Z. Well, okay. But that's not strictly true. Children that experience unconditional love, even if there's one parent, can grow up to have a fantastic life.
Rob Chartrand (55:21.099)
Right.
Philip Collins (55:35.765)
And there are, so it's, you know, there's lots of misinformation and I wanna help people. And I'd love to see us have a counseling center here for the community, for the marginalized, for the traumatized, for the poor. I'd love us to step into that. And a senior pastor, usually mine, would be have done their doctorate.
And it was a choice, did I do my doctorate in theology, having got a master's, or the question I was asking myself is, hey, I'm 58, what do retired pastors do? And I wanna be of really deep use. And I want to hang up my, as it were, senior pastor robes or whatever. And I want to...
Rob Chartrand (56:06.414)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (56:16.268)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (56:29.665)
step into the world of people's pain and be available and be counselling. Most counsellors give up at my age or retire. I want to begin in my 60s and be available for people personally. I think that's my long-term call as well.
Rob Chartrand (56:35.906)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (56:50.054)
That's a great vision. That's a great vision. Well, Phil, I wonder if we could end, if you would take a moment and give a word of encouragement to our ministry leaders. I mean, COVID was hard. We've come out of COVID. We're a year into it. Some of the people who disappeared are reemerging. We're starting to see life emerge from the ashes of COVID in our local churches.
Philip Collins (56:54.281)
Thank you.
Rob Chartrand (57:19.818)
church leaders just wanting to quit and some are going to go through a career change because of everything that's been going on. I think a lot of our leaders need encouragement. So I wondered if you could give us a final word of encouragement to those ministry leaders who are out there.
Philip Collins (57:40.969)
Well, I wanna encourage my dear brothers and sisters that if they led through COVID, they've come out the other end, that first of all, you know, well done, well done. The Lord, I asked the Lord how I should respond to COVID, and the Lord said to me in that whispering moment that I needed to treat COVID as a privilege.
Philip Collins (58:11.566)
that I have been chosen in once in every hundred years, a group of pastors are chosen to lead the gospel through a pandemic. And I approached it that way. And although we're the same, we've lost hundreds of people, hundreds of people have joined us. People that I counted on have disappeared.
There are a lot more non-churchgoers, a lot more irregular churchgoers. It's not what it used to be. What COVID took two years to dismantle is gonna take five to six years to build. For many of us, we've felt like we've been paddling downstream and things have been pretty good, but now we're paddling upstream. So I'd encourage you.
Rob Chartrand (58:59.529)
Mm-hmm.
Philip Collins (59:04.149)
that in the beginning of your ministry and then when you grew your churches and the things you did, you had to grow it on your knees. And I encourage us all to get back on our knees, to keep going, and if we can, see it as a divine privilege and calling in a post-Christian society, which has been accelerated through COVID.
Rob Chartrand (59:14.17)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (59:17.483)
Hmm.
Philip Collins (59:34.417)
to be the guys and the girls to work out how we're going to do church and mission in this new context. And let's see it as an epic adventure, not the time to retire. And let's keep going. And let's start competing with each other and comparing with each other.
Rob Chartrand (59:44.706)
Yeah.
Philip Collins (01:00:03.505)
and let's minister to the people that are put in front of us and are gifts to us at this time. That's what I would say. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:12.459)
Yeah, good word. Amen and amen, brother. Well, thank you for your time and thanks for sharing with us and challenging us and inspiring us towards our knees in prayer. And bless you and your ministry as it continues. And don't get eaten by a grizzly bear when you're out in the wild.
Philip Collins (01:00:21.009)
My pleasure.
Philip Collins (01:00:32.009)
Huh. Now that could be a whole different podcast on how many animals I've met and ran away from.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:42.901)
Well, when we get you back, and I hope we get you back on here, let's talk about bears.
Philip Collins (01:00:49.277)
Thank you. Awesome. I've got two stories. Thanks, Rob.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:50.07)
All right.
Yeah. Oh, you know, one last question, Phil. If people want to get a hold of you and want to learn more about you, where can they do that?
Philip Collins (01:01:04.029)
Well, they can obviously go onto the website, willowparkchurch.com, and they can email me, pcollins at willowparkchurch.com, and or if they get on the website, if they just write me a note through the, you know, messenger or the information point and just say, address it to me, the front desk will always send it.
very accessible and happy to connect with anybody.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:37.11)
That's so great. Thanks so much, Phil. Blessings to you.
Philip Collins (01:01:41.493)
Thanks Rob.