Rob Chartrand (00:01.721)
Well, Mark Birch, welcome to the Church in the North podcast. So glad to have you with us today.
Mark Burch (00:07.318)
Great. It's good to be with you, Rob. Looking forward to this.
Rob Chartrand (00:10.885)
Well, we wanna walk through your story and then we wanna hear more about the uniqueness of what you guys are doing over there at Northview and have a conversation along the way. And I'm just so glad that we could spend some time together. We go back way back, some of our listeners might not know, but we go back a number of years to our work with Church Planting and C2C Network and Redeemer City to Cities. So why don't we begin with you talking about your story and ministry.
Mark Burch (00:21.247)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (00:39.377)
get everybody up to speed on who you are. And so why don't you go back to the beginning. I mean, not, you know, to the day you came out of the birthing canal, but let's go back to the beginning. And why don't you walk us through just up to your current role now at Northview. Give us a bit of a view of the landscape of your ministry journey.
Mark Burch (00:50.391)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (00:59.018)
Yeah, okay Rob, that's great. Yeah, I always, when I go into these conversations, I'm like, how boring will it be for somebody else to listen to a guy's story? And yet the context, I know it's always important. And when I hear somebody else's story, I'm like, oh, that's why you do the things you do. So we're all shaped by our history, of course. I'm an American kid, so that is a critical part to my story. Born into a pastor's.
family, my folks were rural church planters in the early years of their ministry. And back in that day, we had very large families. I'm the seventh of eight kids. And by the time I came around, dad was in established churches. And try to keep that short. They were, my folks both came out of non-Christian homes, came to faith through a vibrant youth program in their town as teenagers. So I love youth ministries. And I don't know how they got to a Canadian Bible school, but my folks
chose to go to a Canadian school, not Broward Crust. They went to one in Alberta, I won't name the school, but it's in a little town called Three Hills. And so this is way back in the late 40s, early 50s. So my folks were sort of steeped in a very conservative theological bent and then went on to do ministry. And to fast forward it, pastored in several Baptist churches during my childhood years. And in my junior high years, somehow dad got
into a liberal church. And I don't know whether they didn't interview well or he didn't interview well, but when he arrived shortly after arrival, realized that his predecessor was quite liberal in his theological perspective and particularly his view on the scriptures. Didn't believe the Old Testament was inspired. They didn't teach or preach from the Old Testament. So dad spent about four years battling Bible issues.
And then in 1980, had a final blow up with a couple of deacons, wrote a resignation letter, went to the hospital and led a guy to Christ and then went home and died of a massive heart attack. And so that radically affected my life as you can imagine. So I was a 15 year old kid and dad had shared enough of his struggles and his battles in that church. And I think, I think looking back now, that was certainly a milestone in my life.
Rob Chartrand (03:05.105)
Wow.
Yeah.
Mark Burch (03:23.314)
because I had to make a decision. I was a pretty angry kid for a period of time. Really blamed the church for killing my dad is how I looked at it. And, you know, by God's grace, he kept his hand on my life. Mom was from Oregon. We were living in Colorado when dad died. So she moved us back to Oregon to be near her family. And we got involved in a good local church that just so happened to have had a pastor who had been a prof at Breyer Crust prior to...
Rob Chartrand (03:30.682)
Mm.
Mark Burch (03:52.414)
serving in our church and he had got a line of students, yep, he got a line of students headed from our little town in Oregon up to Barrecrest. And so in my senior year of high school, I visited Youthquake and was encouraged, uh, thrilled, whatever, excited about the event, decided to go to Barrecrest. So that gets us up to the eighties and, uh, Carolyn and I met at Barrecrest. We were there 82 to 86 and thoroughly enjoyed our years.
at Briar Crest and then headed back out. We graduated in 86, married in 87. And we did a short stint in ministry in Carolyn's hometown. And to make another long story short, as a young married couple, we were fighting like cats and dogs. Both Christian homes, solid backgrounds, but just culturally our homes were so incredibly different in our personality types.
We share a lot in common. So if you know couples who have a lot of personality traits in common and you know you tend to fight a little more. So we did that. And so we stepped out of ministry intentionally to get some help with our marriage. And just said, before we dive deep into the lifelong commitment to ministry, which we both had, thankfully Carolyn also had a very deep call to pastoral ministry. So we spent a couple of years.
Rob Chartrand (05:00.198)
Wow.
Mark Burch (05:13.114)
I had concrete placing as a trade and worked in the construction field for a couple of years, got some marriage counseling, and then began to look for a pastorate. So at age 26, we went to our first little pastor in a rural church. There were 57 people on our first weekend. And it was sort of a classic rural church story. They had been at their peak 400 people, 40 years earlier, way back in the early history of the church and had basically spent 40 years in decline.
Rob Chartrand (05:21.126)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (05:35.973)
Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Burch (05:43.326)
And they called, they made the decision that they would take a risk on calling a young pastor couple. And, you know, God really blessed. We learned a lot in that setting. Small church where everybody knows everybody and right down to the kids and the dogs names, farming community, a hyper congregational model of ministry. So we had several business meetings every year where every decision was made and the challenge of congregational governance. So I can tell you.
Rob Chartrand (06:09.373)
Color the curtains down to the paint.
Mark Burch (06:11.494)
Yep. I can tell you some funny stories if you want to go there. And then about five and a half years into that really sense that, you know, I had probably done as much as I could reach, you know, a leadership cap in that setting. And our kids were early grade school. So for me as a kid, having bounced around a bit and watched the effects on my brothers and sisters and moving had really had a desire that we could raise our kids in one town.
Rob Chartrand (06:37.115)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (06:37.534)
as much as possible. So we made a move at that point in time resigned and we were called to a mid-sized church up in Kelowna, the interior of BC. And by God's grace, we were able to spend 12 and a half years there. So we got the kids, all three of them through high school and graduated. So their growing up years were all spent in that one town, which was really of great benefit to them. Yeah. So yeah. And Rob, I'm talking a lot, but
Rob Chartrand (06:58.117)
Yeah, that's so good.
Mark Burch (07:05.25)
When we went to Kelowna, it was a huge challenge for us. We were coming out of this little rural community, you know, and God had blessed, we'd had baptisms and growth and that was great. But we went to a church that was about five, 600 when we arrived. And for us, it felt like we were going to a mega church. And we were from a rural village, literally just like not a town at all, into a city of 150,000, which again, for us, felt like you're going to the great urban center.
Rob Chartrand (07:32.698)
Right, right.
Mark Burch (07:33.698)
So big changes and a promise that God gave me when we were interviewing was reading in John four and my devotions and the story of the woman at the well and Jesus disciples coming back and questioning him why he was talking to this woman and what was going on in that conversation. But near the end of that conversation, Jesus says to the disciples, stop saying it's four months more to the harvest. The harvest fields are white right in front of you. And then this one line, he said, I'm sending you to reap where others have done the hard work.
Rob Chartrand (08:04.306)
Hmm.
Mark Burch (08:04.354)
And as I'm reading that my devotions, that particular text just jumped off the page at me and landed in my heart. We were Candidating at a very healthy church. They were 50 years old But the previous pastors had fought all the battles that needed to be fought back in the day. This was in the late 90s So the worship wars had been fought for those old enough to remember those good old days Uh, so the organ and piano, you know had been set aside for modern music
Rob Chartrand (08:27.586)
Oh yeah, I remember.
Mark Burch (08:33.814)
They had broken the single cell mindset in that they were already in multiple services, had built a new building 10 years prior to our arriving. So really we landed into a very healthy leadership structure, facilities, musical styles, et cetera. And it really was true for the next decade that the Lord really blessed and we got to reap building on the shoulders of those guys who went ahead of us. And the Lord.
prospered that work by his grace. We grew from that single site to a four site multi-service 10 service church over those next 12 years and that was great. Now that being said, I did not run well as a leader. So 12 years in, 11 years in, largely because of poor self-management.
Rob Chartrand (09:20.605)
Okay.
Mark Burch (09:28.138)
leadership challenges, I likely needed a coach that I didn't have back in the day, didn't understand the challenges I was facing with multi-staff and faced a personal burnout, which I wouldn't say the classic in the sense of really, you know, hitting the wall and having an absolute meltdown, but certainly hit a wall and entered into a mild depression and just a time of a deep melancholy cloud over the ministry.
And in the midst of that challenge, we made the decision that we'd probably led that church as far as we probably could and stepped down from ministry, uh, in that particular setting and had the call to join church planting BC. Uh, and that led into the next chapter of our life. So we're in our early forties at this point in time. And that was, uh, we finished in Kelowna 2009. So 14 years ago. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (10:01.965)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (10:16.556)
What year would it have been there?
Rob Chartrand (10:21.953)
Okay. And is Church Planning BC, was that with the MBs, Men and I Brethren? Okay.
Mark Burch (10:27.838)
Yeah. So, um, men and I brethren have, have classically had a real missional heart in the church planning heart. Uh, we're very small denom, uh, as denominations go, we're only 500 churches in all of North America. Uh, 250 basically in Canada and the U S each, but they've always tried to reach into communities where there weren't churches and plant churches. So the British Columbia conference.
had a church planning director who had a vision to expand that beyond just the Mennonite Brethren denomination. And so the church planning BC name was to remove it from, you know, Mennonite Brethren church planning and make it broader. And we had begun, or he had begun already some conversations. The two earliest conversations were with Pentecostal Assembly of Canada and Fellowship Baptist guys who were coming looking for training and equipping. So.
Guy's name was Gord Fleming, great leader, thoroughly enjoyed my years working with Gord. And so we spent the next decade and it's a bit of a mishmash, but I think it's relevant to perhaps some of the listeners deeply, deeply loved the church planting world. And I think partly because I grew up in that home where, you know, my folks were rural church planters that was in their blood. Dad back in the early, my grade school years was doing long before they called it multi-site. He was doing a dual.
Rob Chartrand (11:27.557)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (11:54.35)
church charge, where in our small town, a church up the road, 15 miles, was without a pastor. So dad would drive back and forth. He would preach the 9 a.m. in our church, drive up there for 10 a.m. preach, and then come back to an 11 a.m. service at our church. And this, I mean, that would be honestly, Rob, that had to be in the 1970s. Nobody was talking multi-satyr, that kind of thing. They just did what they needed to do, right?
Rob Chartrand (12:08.166)
Wow.
Rob Chartrand (12:17.657)
Yeah, they do an evening service as well. Yeah. Midweek Bible study. Yeah, wow. Yeah. So how long was your break between, finishing up with this church and, obviously feeling probably a bit exhausted and burnt out. How long is the gap between that and stepping into this new role?
Mark Burch (12:20.934)
Yes, there was evening service and then there was midweek Wednesday Bible study. Yes. The good old days. Yeah.
Mark Burch (12:41.514)
Yeah, we had a three month window and that's good and important. I think I was either wise enough or just tired enough to know that I needed a break. So we resigned. In fact, in all the roles that we have been in, we have always finished the role that we're in without knowing where we're going. And that's just the way God has led us. We knew we were done. So we resigned on faith that the Lord would have something for us, but did not know where we're going. But I knew we had enough money set aside.
that we could survive for three months without needing employment. So we're like, okay, we're going to take sort of a self-imposed sabbatical, if you will, and not do anything for three months and just rest and do some vacation and visit family and that. And it was in the midst of that three month period that Gorg Fleming contacted me and said, I know you're on a break, but you know, when you're ready to, to begin looking seriously, I'd like to talk to you. So we did end up having that full three months break and then.
to the date, three months after resignation, then we started with Church of Miami, BC. So again, that was God's grace to us. I mean, it was a gift that we needed that rest and gained some perspective and health again, so.
Rob Chartrand (13:43.117)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (13:50.893)
Yeah. So while you were with Church Planning BC, it went through a few different iterations. It changed its name a bit. Its focus, its funding model and all that switched up a little bit. Is that correct?
Mark Burch (14:03.998)
Yes. Yeah. I think as far as that, that particular network, you know, I could talk forever about it, but it was a beautiful thing. I remember sitting with, with Gord, actually in a restaurant and drawing on the back of a napkin, we were down in Seattle, consulting with Scott Thomas, who was at that point in time, the president of acts 29, when it was in its glory days, and we began to think and dream about what would a national network look like.
Rob Chartrand (14:17.309)
Mm-hmm. Classic.
Mark Burch (14:32.026)
in the Canadian context. And the challenge for me, and I think it still is true, Rob, that I think most Canadian church planners today, if a young couple is sensing a call on their heart to start something new, most of them go south of the border for resourcing. Every Danam has a little bit of a church planning arm to it, and some are stronger than others, but the vast majority of church planning resources are stateside. So...
Rob Chartrand (14:47.709)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Burch (14:58.706)
we began to ask the question, why couldn't we create a go-to Canadian place for, you know, the broad spectrum of evangelicals, so it wouldn't matter what tribe you were part of, that you could look to a Canadian network that would help you with training and support and prayer and assessment and all those kind of things. So that was really the heart behind it. And the name came as we wrestled with what would we call it, some kind of generic, it was going to be housed.
from a legal standpoint, housed in the Midnight Brethren denomination, because you've got to house it somewhere. But what would we call it? That would be generic. And in looking at the Canadian history, partly because I had just taken out my Canadian citizenship and gone through the study manual and was really challenged and encouraged by the story of Leonard Tilly, who at the, you know, the confederation meeting back in Charlottetown, way back in 1864, he comes down from his
and challenging all men in the room, but challenging the men saying, hey, look, if we get this through the parliament in Britain, it's got to be Dominion of Canada based on Psalm 72, 8. And the king will have dominion from sea to sea and from the rivers to the ends of the earth. And that little phrase there, sea to sea, which is our national model, etched in stone on the peace tower in Ottawa, yet till today. You know, if you've studied that text, you know, it's a prophetic psalm.
Rob Chartrand (16:10.832)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Burch (16:24.482)
And Zechariah quotes it in Zechariah 9, where he talks about the king is going to come humble riding on the back of a donkey, and his dominion will be from sea to sea. And then, of course, Jesus fulfills that when he rides into Jerusalem on the donkey. And so this promise that really grabbed my heart at that point, saying, could we live to see the day where King Jesus truly did have dominion from coast to coast, from sea to sea, across the Canadian?
Rob Chartrand (16:37.898)
I'm sorry.
Mark Burch (16:52.542)
landscape. So we grabbed that name and began into the multi denominational world. So it was fun.
Rob Chartrand (16:55.555)
Ha ha
Rob Chartrand (16:59.825)
I love how an American is schooling us in Canadian history. Well, you've been in Canada half your life anyway, so you've been more than half. So that's great. Okay, so you were with C2C for quite a number of years and I mean, we don't need to go through all the iterations and whatnot. I mean, that's when you and I intersected. I mean, my church wasn't planted with C2C, but I think once...
Mark Burch (17:03.447)
Hahaha, yeah.
Yeah, more than half.
Mark Burch (17:20.587)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (17:26.853)
we were up and running, we heard about you guys. I mean, there was just such an affinity just for gospel centered mission for us that we kind of got grafted into the vine with you guys. And you guys are really generous in inviting me to all your events. And then of course, I got on staff with you guys in as a regional mobilizer for Edmonton. And we did training with Redeemer City to City. So that just brings everyone up to speed on our journey together, but those were great times. There was just...
Mark Burch (17:49.568)
Yep. For sure.
Rob Chartrand (17:55.217)
There's just such a sense of God doing something significant across our country.
Mark Burch (18:02.05)
Yeah, there's two stories, Rob, that I think they still burn in my heart and I desire to see it happen again. One comes from Keller. We used a ton of their stuff for Deemer City to City's training and just his global heart. But Keller would say in his training, planting a great person church in Manhattan, but saying one church alone will not reach the city.
And nor will one denomination alone reach this city. So the partnerships that even very early on, he began to explore and try to partner with. And then how they had built city to city global affiliates all around the world that are intentionally multi-denominational, just knowing that, you know, Presbyterians alone, which was Keller's world, are not going to reach the entire world. We need the broad swath of the evangelical church. And then secondly, Ed Stutzer was up here at a conference probably 10 years ago at this point in time.
Rob Chartrand (18:44.125)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (18:54.654)
And I remember well the moment he's standing on the stage, giving his spiel, and in the midst of his talk, he pauses and you could tell he was having a thought off script and he said, you know, let me just talk to you as Canadians for a moment. His wife's a Canadian, so he feels like he has some, you know, voice to speak to us. But he says, please do not do what we've done in America. And then so he now has our attention and, you know, kind of pauses and then he says it fairly soberly. He said, you know, in the States,
We don't have to work together because our denominations are so large and so well-resourced that most of us can function entirely on our own. And he says in Canada, you don't have that luxury because the denominations are small, the resources are less. And then, you know, he made this funny comedy. He's like, you're like a bunch of penguins up here. And if you don't huddle together for heat, you're going to die.
And I just remember that challenge of saying, you know, you look across this room and who knows who was in the room, but knowing that it was a multi denominational room. And yet on the core theological issues of our statements of faith, we were in agreement and going, why could we not partner, you know, Baptists and Presbyterians and Alliance and Mennonites and Pentecostals and you name it on these core doctrines that we agree for the sake of Canada? So it's still a burden in my heart that we would.
Rob Chartrand (19:49.192)
So true.
Mark Burch (20:18.026)
we would see that kind of a cooperation where the denominational flags get lowered a bit and the name of Jesus gets lifted up.
Rob Chartrand (20:26.841)
Yeah, amen. Yeah, 100%. So how did you get from C to C to where you are today?
Mark Burch (20:35.358)
Yep. Interesting story, Rob. And this might resonate for, I don't know who'll be listening to this, but in the midst of that, you know, what you'd have to call a parachurch world, I think that pastoral call just never got out of my heart. And so as much as I loved the network world and thoroughly did enjoy it, there was this tug we had already spent 23 years in the local church and
really, really missed. And so to tell you a bit of that story, the decade in the church mining world was actually broken into two parts because this tug to get back in the local church was so strong that two years in, I accepted a call to go to a Baptist church that was in a turnaround type situation and just really felt this tug for this, this church. The moment I arrived there, I knew within six weeks that this was not going to be a long term, that it was going to be a transitional role.
And we spent two years there doing basically what all transitional leaders would do. And then went back to a C2C network into the church planting world. And all the way through that, you know, the two favorite parts of my job were working with young leaders, seeing them get trained up and tooled and encouraged and envisioned for church planting. And then secondly, the work that we were doing with established churches. So a lot of itinerary.
pulpit ministry and meeting with pastors of long established churches that wanted to get into the planting game but didn't know how to do it. And in the midst of that, every time I was in a local church as a guest speaker or meeting with an elders team or a pastoral team talking about this, there's just this tug on my heart that, oh man, I miss the local church, love the local church. So
Rob Chartrand (22:16.349)
Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Burch (22:21.222)
In the midst of all of that and the 10 year journey with CDC, we had eventually merged with a global mission organization. And in the midst of that merger, my role was changing and becoming what I viewed as far more administrative than I wanted to be involved in. And this tug on the local church was just there. So I talked with my boss and said, you know, it's been a decade and I need to get back into the local church. I'm looking at my age and saying, I would love to finish the last, you know, 10, 15 year run that I've got.
in me, I would like to do that based in a local church. And so, you know, that again, we resigned not knowing where we're going. And one of our advisory team members was the pastor of the church that we're currently in. And at one of our meetings, I was just sharing my journey with him of, you know, the kind of the loose in the saddle field that I was having and he's like, you know what? As a church, we have just embraced a church planning vision and I have just begun the search of looking for somebody to lead it.
You know, so it was one of those divine coincidences, if you will, or if you want to use the sovereignty of God language, it was certainly his plan in preparing that conversation at the right time. And so I finished my task with Sea to Sea, took a month of vacation time, and then jumped on board here at Northview. So that's the short version.
Rob Chartrand (23:24.409)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (23:41.841)
Okay. Yeah. And it wasn't very long, you were in that role. And there was something happened. There's a leadership transition that really affected your role there. Let's talk about that. That's an understatement.
Mark Burch (23:56.695)
Yes, that's an understatement. You know what? And if my good friend Jeff Bucknum happens to listen to this ever, you know, he can, we've had this conversation often, nothing will surprise him what I'm about to say. So yeah, when we came to Northview, following or joining a great leader named Jeff Bucknum, he had been here 15 years already, 13 years as a lead guy. And
One of the key questions, of course, that I think every candidate as an associate role asks to the lead guys, well, how long are you going to be here? And, you know, in, in his mind, he thought, you know, a good another decade for sure. And I thought that's great. Uh, I can pour myself into the church binding role and, uh, you know, sail into the retirement sunset as you will. Sounded great. And then, you know, two major events happened. Of course we were here, uh, we joined in the summer and then of course the next March, so.
eight, nine months later, the world shut down with COVID. And so we've all been through that journey. And so all of the effects on the local church and grappling with that and the effects that had on our church finding vision at the point in time. And then in the midst of the second year, so it would have been 14, 16 months into my time here and smack dab in the middle of the COVID situation.
Jeff came to us as a leadership team and said, Hey guys, I need to let you know, I'm in conversation with a harvest Bible chapel down in Chicago. And I think most listeners will be familiar with the story of, of that church and James McDonald's departure and all that went along with that. Uh, so Jeff, uh, took a number of months, but interviewed back and forth and, uh, accepted the call from harvest to come down to Chicago and lead that, lead that church into their next season. And, you know,
Rob Chartrand (25:28.925)
Yeah, yeah, so sad.
Mark Burch (25:46.474)
We, it was a, a bittersweet conversation truly because, you know, rejoicing for that church in that they would have a leader that would come and lead them into the next season. And I think Jeff's gifting is uniquely suited to that situation. And then of course, grieving for ourselves because we're like, we lost a really great leader and a highly respected teacher.
So then who fills the gap? And in the midst of that, because COVID and do we do a thorough nationwide search, how does this work? Our elders looked internally and said, hey, we've got a guy here, would you be interested in the conversation? And so we began that conversation. So two years into my assignment, then I transitioned into the lead role and have been in that the last two years.
Rob Chartrand (26:19.514)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (26:32.545)
Wow. And that's I mean, that is unique. I mean, they didn't do the transition pastor. They didn't do the job posting. They just I mean, it's during COVID as well. And so they're just there's a guy here on the bench who I mean, God is clearly gifted and it would be a great fit for the role gets our culture people love them. Let's just do this transition. Was that was that pretty seamless moving into this new role or face some challenges?
Mark Burch (27:01.494)
You know, I suppose it depends who you ask. Yeah, and I think from the outside in, as I talked to a number of our congregants, many of them have affirmed how seamless it felt and looked to them, which is, that's great. I'm like, praise God for that. Behind the scenes at the leadership table, you know that there's always nuances to that story. And so, you know, the factors were numerous.
Rob Chartrand (27:05.601)
I suppose it is.
Mark Burch (27:31.27)
Jeff finished June 30th and I literally started July 1st. So we had at midnight, we passed the baton. It just happened to correspond with COVID restrictions opening in British Columbia. So Jeff had to finish his ministry. We had a season where we could meet outdoor in tents, but not inside. So we had four tents of 50 people on our parking lot that you could preach to. So he finished his ministry preaching outside to four tents of
50 people. And literally the next Sunday, the world had opened up wide and we could be back inside in the sanctuary packed full of people. Now that didn't last more than a couple months and we were back into restrictions. But just the timing on that was, you know, I mean, we did make a joke of it that as soon as Buckingham left the country, COVID was over. You know, we had a little fun, but just the emotional tug for our people that they weren't even really able to say a formal goodbye.
to Jeff because we literally could not meet. So he left town, you know, saying goodbye basically on a video. And so people were grieving. And I guess I'm old enough to have seen the transitional story enough times to realize that in the typical church, particularly following a, you know, a well-respected ministry that has ended well, it takes a year for the church to simply deal with the grief and the shock.
Rob Chartrand (28:29.569)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, COVID departure is hard.
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (28:49.721)
Yep. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (28:55.248)
Cough.
Mark Burch (28:56.254)
You know, the sorrow that there's a leader that they have respected is gone. And just to deal with that reality, in many ways, it's like a death in the family. And it takes a full year. Then typically, you know, which you have transitional pastors come, uh, you find a new guy and it takes at least a year, uh, to get to know the new guy, to build trust, to get used to a new voice.
So, you know, I've counseled over years, a number of younger leaders going, when you're starting in a new church, just anticipate the first two years are simply getting to know the congregation, the people, love them, lead them well, earn trust. And by about year three, your ministry actually then starts to begin. Now that's discouraging in the first days, but it's just reality, you need to build trust. So I said to our team, you know what guys, we've got two years ahead of us of this transition. And the first year we've just got a...
knuckle under and deal with people's grief and the shock and the change. We're coming out of COVID all through that time. Year two, we will probably start to gain some traction. And by year three, which is this fall 2023, we would probably start to move forward in ministry. And actually, rather, it's really we've tracked that way just really well. The first year was tough with COVID and we had a number of pastoral changes that happened.
Rob Chartrand (30:03.837)
Hmm.
Mark Burch (30:14.142)
We refilled a number of those roles last year coming out of COVID. It took us clear till Easter of 2023, so this past spring, to get back to our pre-COVID numbers. So even though the world had opened up the previous summer, the return to church was slow and by Easter we're finally back. And I'm like, praise God for that. So summer was great. We're back to what feels like.
you know, that pre-pandemic world as far as numbers. And that's been exciting to see. So I'm looking forward to the fall. I mean, you know, I feel in many ways we're just beginning our ministry and team is strong. We still have a few vacancies we need to fill, but God's been very good to us.
Rob Chartrand (30:46.49)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:59.641)
Yeah, well, praise God. I'm very happy to hear that. You know, and I don't think everyone knows Northview, but I mean, it's a multi campus, multi service, church community. So there's a, you know, a lot of dynamics in your in your church. I mean, you're situated primarily in Abbotsford, you do have a mission campus, obviously. But
You know, one of the unique, I want to talk about some of the unique passions of your church. And one of them is this with this whole framework of leadership development and church planting and Northview actually has a Leadership Institute. So what's that all about? Can you can you kind of explain that to us?
Mark Burch (31:51.46)
Yeah, Rob, let me set a little bit of the context of how we got there. Northview is 43 years old and from the get-go it had a legacy of faithful Bible teachers. A couple of the early guys that I knew back in the day would say we're not doing anything that special, it's basically worshiping the word. We take people to Jesus through music and then we open the Bible. And really, I would say for the four decades.
Rob Chartrand (32:02.767)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (32:10.491)
Right.
Mark Burch (32:18.442)
Just meat and potatoes, expositional, exegetical type preaching has been the core. There's been a deep love for doctrine and theology, which I think has been uniquely shaped by some of the leaders that we have had over the years. And so that love for sound doctrine and teaching and a love of the scriptures really led the church.
Rob Chartrand (32:36.369)
Hmm.
Mark Burch (32:42.55)
Probably six, eight years ago, two things happened in tandem. The church planting multiplication vision happened about the same time. And then the leadership development. So knowing that we wanted to see more and better churches planted across the country, which require more and better leaders and more and better disciples, that those two in tandem needed to happen. And I think as the church began to look for leaders that would come and
Rob Chartrand (32:52.869)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (32:59.611)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (33:09.142)
potentially go out from among us and plant new churches. It was a challenge in looking at students who were coming out of the existing Bible schools and theological schools in that many of them came with no ministry experience under their belt. So they would have a degree, but sadly, and this is not on the schools necessarily as much as it is on the student, a number of candidates who, when you began to press into their church experience,
Rob Chartrand (33:25.165)
Right.
Mark Burch (33:36.87)
had not even been part of the church community during their theological training. You know, which is really sad. You exit out of the church for three or four years while you're a student and effectively become disengaged in the life of a local congregation. And so this vision for church-based theological training began to percolate to say, you know, can we train our own students? Can we find a partnership model with a seminary somewhere or whatever where we could get
Rob Chartrand (33:40.365)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Mark Burch (34:06.97)
sound theological training, but not unhinged from the local church. So give students local church ministry experience alongside their theological training. So, I mean, long story short, and we could talk forever about that, Rob, but that is what the model has grown into. We're in a dual seminary partnership. So Northwest Seminary and Manai Brethren Biblical Seminary together.
Rob Chartrand (34:12.327)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (34:35.562)
confer our degrees for us. And the students spend basically 20 hours a week in study and 30 hours a week in ministry is what it looks like. And over the course of a four year, they will earn their masters of divinity. And at the end of four years, they've also got, you know, effectively at least two plus four years of ministry experience under their belt. So that as they graduate, they can already, you know, say, I've done four years of ministry in a local church. So it's grown to
Rob Chartrand (34:44.369)
Okay.
Mark Burch (35:05.194)
The level right now that we're comfortable with the size, we have a dozen students, so about three students per year that rotate in those four year models. We've graduated out probably, it would either be nine or 12 students. Most of them have found placement in churches, ministering and some in the parachurch. So that's been great to see, but it was based on the fact that we wanted to train our own leaders in-house, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (35:30.777)
Yeah. And, you know, and some of our listeners might think, well, that's, that's only 12 students, that's not a lot. But actually, seminaries aren't that large. I mean, they some of the seminaries who've been operating for many, many decades might be three or four times that size. And that's it. I mean, so that's that is actually quite a significant number of leaders. Those leaders, are they are they active in ministry with you or in other places? Or did some
Make changes?
Mark Burch (36:02.258)
Yeah, at the beginning point, all of the students would have been embedded inside the walls of Northview and so assigned to various areas of ministry. And the idea originally was maybe year by year they would be reassigned to different departments. We've shifted that somewhat today based on the students' calling and interest and, you know, just their competencies that they might spend the entire four years in, like, for example, adult discipleship.
small group ministries, preaching teaching ministries, children and youth ministries. So it started in-house, then we had more and more requests coming from sister churches saying, hey, we've got a student, one or two students with us. Do we have to send them to Northview for four years to do their training? So again, in a partnership with the seminary, they agreed that the kids could take the kids, the students. Many of them are not kids, some are middle aged.
They could take the theological training with us and do the ministry experience in their local church So that's been exciting just in the last couple years. I think this year we have three partners that are not part of Northview So they do their ministry at a sister church, you know All of them here in the lower mainland so within an hour's drive of Northview and then they will come in One day a week for their studies with the cohort That's opening some interesting doors because potentially
There could be partners then across the country, you know, with Zoom connections and VideoLink that could join a cohort of students in their theological training, but stay embedded in their local church for ministry experience. So yeah, the big dream behind it was, I mean, there's many parts to it, but was can we get these kids through their education and not carry a ton of debt from their theological education and help them survive through the year?
as they enter into this program, we pay for their seminary education and give them a tiny stipend. So it's, you know, it's, it's not enough. It's not a salary. Certainly it's enough to kind of carry them through and they got to get really creative in their living environments. And many of them, they will have a spouse that is working or will help carry the family through those years. But our goal would be that they finish their MDiv and that they don't have any debt.
Mark Burch (38:25.298)
at least, that they've survived through the four years and then they don't enter into church ministry carrying, you know, 60, 80, 100 grand in debt as some students have to.
Rob Chartrand (38:25.561)
Yeah, and that's so huge.
Rob Chartrand (38:34.905)
Yeah, and I mean, and I think most of our listeners know this, but it needs to be said. I mean, theological education is significantly, it's not cheap because it's not funded by government. So, I mean, we have to find unique ways to fund theological education. So it does cost more. And then clergy typically don't make as much. And so if they're walking out with a hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt into a church.
Mark Burch (38:50.475)
Yes.
Yeah. Yes.
Rob Chartrand (39:04.153)
that's going to be a real challenge for them and their families if they they're going to try and live on par with the people that they're serving. You'll never live on par but you don't know what I mean like in a sustainable lifestyle at least
Mark Burch (39:06.571)
Yes.
Mark Burch (39:15.71)
Yes. Yeah. And all the challenges that go with that. I mean, the Canadian real estate market, you know, in many areas is now getting so unaffordable for young families in general. And then if you add, you know, crippling debt on top of that, combined with a modest income, the challenges of ever entering into home ownership also just are compounded. So yeah.
Rob Chartrand (39:41.441)
Yeah, especially where you guys are in the lower mainland there. I mean, that's a significant challenge. So how do you see the face of theological ministry training for pastors changing across the country? Obviously, you guys are doing something. I know other churches are trying to become theological hubs as well, especially larger churches, because they I mean, they have the capacity to do that and they have a larger critical mass of people. But yeah, you think about the.
Mark Burch (39:44.842)
Yeah. Yes, for sure.
Rob Chartrand (40:10.241)
the country and what's happening any thoughts on how things might be changing going forward in the future?
Mark Burch (40:17.026)
Oh, Rob, you're the expert at this. I should be asking you that question. So, I mean, I have some thoughts, but I don't know how founded they are. Like, I still believe that there is, and at least for the foreseeable future, a real need for classical theological education. Like, I think our Bible schools and seminaries, we need to do all we can to get behind them and strengthen them because there's like we're training 12 students. I mean, which is awesome.
But when you think of the thousands of workers that we need across the country, there's no way that a handful of churches alone are going to be able to do that. So I would love to see a combination of both the churches that are able to form some partnerships with seminaries and do a, you know, a teaching hub, if you will, locally, lean into that. I think pastors need to be willing and their boards alongside them need to be willing to make the investment.
Rob Chartrand (40:52.989)
That's right.
Mark Burch (41:11.05)
You know, we can talk about that a little bit, because I think it's important the investment our, our elders team have chosen to make in our budget. It means we can't do a lot of stuff that we would like to do because we're spending money on leadership development, church planting that, you know, we could spend that elsewhere, but I still think that there's a need for, uh, you know, theologically, um, solid seminaries and Bible schools and a bit of the grief that I have.
uh, is watching the, the demise of the, the Bible school movement and the theological movement across Canada. So when you study the a hundred year history on it, I mean, a hundred years ago, there would have been probably 20, 30 small little Bible schools across our, our nation, many of them church-based. Um, and many of them grew into, you know, large institutions like Brewer Crest and Prairie, et cetera.
Rob Chartrand (41:56.801)
at least yeah
Mark Burch (42:05.182)
And then a handful of just small schools that never had more than 60, 80 students in them. And one by one by one, they have dropped off to the point where I don't even know, you may know the numbers of how many Bible schools are left. But increasingly, I don't think students are looking at Bible school education and churches are looking at Bible school education as something that they really want to encourage their students to pursue. And I think that's a huge loss for the church in general.
Rob Chartrand (42:32.59)
Yeah. I agree. Yeah.
Mark Burch (42:35.43)
And then theological education. I mean, the Canadian landscape is a challenge, right? Because there's evangelical churches small and our numbers are not large numbers and we're spread, you know, 3,000 miles from coast to coast. So to find a center place where people can actually, could come and live in the traditional theological setting. So I think schools and individuals have to get creative. And I mean, I know Breyercrest has and all the other schools have as well with summer modules and online learning.
But there is something about that greenhouse effect of being together with like face to face with a cohort of students, you know, even if it's only six or eight students in a class, but at least having that iron sharpening iron contact that you have where you can go, you know, you can go grab a coffee after class and really wrestle through issues and debate one another and press in on the theological distinctives that maybe you're bringing to the conversation and just the sharpening that it.
Rob Chartrand (43:28.67)
Yep.
Mark Burch (43:30.998)
that it brings to say, you know what, hey, my denom sees it somewhat differently. Let's look at the scriptures. How did you land? Where you land? There's such a richness to that. Um, so I, I hope Rob that you're going to solve this problem. So when we're done with this podcast, you can go, go back to work and fix it.
Rob Chartrand (43:39.771)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (43:49.913)
think I agree with you. I think there is a place for the traditional Bible School model and framework and there's a place for the hubs, I think. And I think that's what we're going to learn. And I think COVID has taught us that that, to a certain degree, video works. I mean, it is possible. And there's a lot more emerging studies that have been done about online training and what it is capable of and what it's limited and it's able to do.
But I mark I want to go back to that one point that you make, which I think is so important. I mean, that's so I get people requesting pastors all the time, like all the time, but we don't have enough people to fill all of the need that's out there. So the challenge is, is that it's actually at the front end, it's, it's people coming for theological education and
I almost think we need to do a call out to our churches again, is to say pastors, youth workers, camps, would you challenge young people to, you know, challenge them in such a way that you say to them, would you prayerfully consider whether or not the Lord has called you to consider vocational ministry, to actually to sit down and pray for it?
Mark Burch (44:46.999)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Burch (45:06.218)
Yes. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (45:11.217)
And actually to see this elevation of the call again as a social good. Because I think parents now are concerned primarily with two things. And here I'm, there's a book called The End of Youth Ministry. Andrew Root has written any talks about, he draws on Charles Taylor and he draws on just
Mark Burch (45:17.325)
Yes.
Mark Burch (45:32.814)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (45:35.469)
a number of different authors, but he says that the two things that parents are most concerned about for their children are security and safety. Those are the two primary things. And so that means the priorities in their children's life are going to be revolved around that. And that's a different story than the gospel story, right? It's a competing story for the imaginations of our emerging kids. And so if you're
Mark Burch (45:55.211)
Yes.
Rob Chartrand (46:02.521)
two priorities for your kids are safety and security. Well, you're going to find an affordable education in a place that's going to get you a good career. And that's going to keep you away from potential suffer and surrender. And so I mean, that's clearly not necessarily the center of the gospel story. It's clearly not and it's going to keep you out of ministry, I think. So we want I just we need to help parents reimagine what
Mark Burch (46:12.792)
Yes.
Mark Burch (46:24.098)
Yep. Yes.
Rob Chartrand (46:31.097)
what the story is ultimately for their children and for their future. There's there's my there's my pulpit my stump speech.
Mark Burch (46:33.89)
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
Mark Burch (46:39.846)
Yeah, no, Rob, I'm with you 100%. I remember an experience way back when I was a teenager. So after we'd moved to Oregon and before going to Brouracrest, there was a night, and I don't remember what was going on, but I think a guest speaker probably from a Bible school asked the question from the front of the church, how many of you spent at least one year in a Bible school setting?
sometime in your lifetime. And so, you know, it's in our multi generational congregation, I was shocked as a kid, that like 80% of the hands went up in that room. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, like, I'm looking around at all these older folks who were, you know, mechanics and farmers and teachers and doctors, and etc. Like working in the seven day 24 seven world out there, not in professional ministry, that had been to Bible school. And I was like, it was a shocker to me.
So then as I began to press into that and got immersed in the life of that church and realizing that there was a huge emphasis in that church based on the pastors who had gone before us, that every student graduated from high school should spend at least one year in a Bible school setting. And there were actually four or five schools that our little church would, you know, kind of recommend. There were two Canadian ones, two U S ones. And they're like, don't, we don't care where you go, but we think that you should take a year of Bible school at least.
Rob Chartrand (47:45.894)
Right.
Mark Burch (47:57.558)
So in my graduating class, there were 13 students, 12 of us went to Bible school for at least one year. And the 13th guy who kind of cheated the system, he went to a Christian university. So he was like, yeah, he went down to Laterno in Texas. And so he's like, well, it's Christian, so it kind of counts. And we kind of mocked him. But I'm like, that day is gone where church parents, as you said, in a graduating class of grade 12 students,
are encouraging every student in that room to say, you know what, as a parent, we all make the investment. So, you know, we said this to our kids, um, we will pay for one year of Bible school for you. Uh, we don't have a lot of money set aside, but if you're willing to take at least one year, we will help you get a year of Bible school under your belt. You need to decide career wise where you're going, but this foundational knowledge that you need, uh, we want that embedded in you. And, and I think the richness Rob is not just, I totally agree with you that call to professional ministry and
as pastors, that's on us. We need to be calling the young generation of men and women, like are you considering God's call on your life, whether it's to overseas missions or at home missions in the local church, and why not? Why are you not considering that? Secondly, we need to say to them, every single one of you is called to full-time ministry. So it doesn't matter if you're gonna be a doctor, lawyer, school teacher, stay at home mom, you name it, you are in full-time professional ministry. So
Rob Chartrand (49:16.229)
That's right. Yep.
Mark Burch (49:24.902)
Every penny that you earn comes from the Lord's hands. So are we equipping you well to go out and serve in your 24 sevens? So I mean, interesting timing. Just yesterday we had a meeting here with a bunch of public school teachers in our church. We're putting on an event in a couple of weeks trying to invite all the people who get their paycheck from the school district and a little focus group of about 12 of them and saying, okay, as Christians in the public system,
Tell us your greatest joys and your greatest challenges. What are the opportunities you have in front of you and what are the obstacles? It was a rich hour of conversation. As I listened to these men and women passionately talking about their calling as public school teachers, the burden they have for students in the public system, the joys and the opportunities that they actually have, like wide open doors for conversation in many, many instances. And then of course the flip side.
Rob Chartrand (49:59.785)
Hmm.
Mark Burch (50:19.738)
all of the challenges and barriers facing them right now as Christians in the public system. And I'm like, man, this is the work of the church. And a Bible school foundation for some of these folks, give them some theological moorings is so critical. So anyway, you're singing to the choir, Rob, when we're talking about this. And I hope and pray that pastors listening will encourage young students. And remember back to the day, whoever it was that tapped you on the shoulder.
Rob Chartrand (50:23.997)
That's right. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (50:34.361)
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Burch (50:48.99)
as a young leader and said, hey, have you considered the call to ministry? I see gifts in you. I see God's hand in your life. We need to be doing that.
Rob Chartrand (50:57.509)
Yep. The ICNU call. Dave Ferguson. Yeah.
Mark Burch (51:00.143)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Rob Chartrand (51:03.845)
Well, let's shift the conversation to church planting. I know that's something that's a priority for Northview. How much of a priority is it for Northview? And how can you say that?
Mark Burch (51:14.334)
Yes. Yeah, I praise God that I jumped into a situation where they had already made the decisions about making it a priority. So we were building on that. It's awesome. I'll just put it in raw numbers for the, you know, the number crunchers out there who are wondering about this. Between church finding and leadership development, if you include the partnerships we have in planting and the cost of the education and then the staff to run these programs, it's 25% of our budget.
Rob Chartrand (51:42.661)
Yeah, wow.
Mark Burch (51:43.234)
So that's a huge investment. It means that on many other fronts, we're understaffed in some areas of ministry that other churches would say you need more staff. So we're running a bit of a skinny, tight ship locally so that we are able to send, you know, 25 cents off every dollar that comes in is invested in these leaders and then also in church planning.
So the church planning right now is largely done through partnerships. We've got two plants directly out of our church. So in the history of the church, the last eight years, we inherited a church in our Danam was closing their doors. The Danam came and said, can you help us replant? And so that was the first sort of step into that church planning world. Since then, I've partnered with two other churches that close their doors to help them replant.
We've done our own multi-site here locally, so we have four sites. Sorry, Rob, I've got a frog in my throat. I'm talking too much. And then a plant of our own up in the interior in Kelowna. Then beyond that, we're like, there's no way that North U Church alone is going to be able to meet the needs. So we've got to find partners. So we are looking strategically for theologically aligned partners.
Rob Chartrand (52:47.153)
That's okay.
Mark Burch (53:08.142)
not necessarily in our own denom, although right now most of them are. But we've got some partnerships back in Newfoundland and Atlantic, Canada, Quebec, and then the rest would be here in B.C. Where we come alongside to help them if they need training, if they need resourcing, if they need dollars to help them get off the ground. So that's been a joy to have. And the cool story behind it, Rob, that I just need to throw out the commitment of our elders team to this.
Rob Chartrand (53:28.797)
Hmm. Wow.
Mark Burch (53:37.374)
is significant in the first days of COVID when none of us knew what was going to happen financially and you know where we're going to go in the tank and of course most churches ended up doing fine through the COVID season but we made a bunch of immediate layoffs and decisions to cut our budget in the early days but as the elders met and we began to talk about what we would cut they made this comment they said we will cut everything else before we cut leadership development. We're not going to cut our students, we're not going to stop our training.
So whatever else you need to close down, close it down, but not leadership development. And what that told me was, okay, they are fully behind this, not just in their words, but also with their pocketbooks as well.
Rob Chartrand (54:09.509)
Wow. Yep.
Rob Chartrand (54:23.405)
Yeah, I mean, and oftentimes I think in churches, that's something like that. They seem like as cream, like it's if we get to do it, we get to do it rather than core. Right. At the core of what you're all about and why you're here. And so that I mean, that just speaks to the priority of what it means for your church. You know, the church planting movement seems to have lost steam compared to, say, 10 years ago. And I think it was Ed Stetzer who said that.
Mark Burch (54:34.519)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (54:40.556)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (54:52.089)
church planting is like the most commodified church product in North America. And it was at the time, I mean, I go into like exponential conferences and there's booth set up and there's all these church planting movements and every millennial wants to plant a church because it's chic and it's cool. And of course, until they're two years into it and then they realize, oh, my goodness, what did I do? You know, so but.
Mark Burch (55:05.486)
Thank you.
Mark Burch (55:11.062)
Hmm. Yep.
Rob Chartrand (55:17.281)
Yeah, and it seems, I don't know, it seems like it goes in ebbs and flows in Canada and it seems right now it's kind of on, I don't know, it doesn't have the same steam or velocity that it had, say when I planted Crosspoint 10 years ago or 12 years ago even. So any thoughts on that? Why has it changed? Has it changed? Maybe it's just different.
Mark Burch (55:21.188)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Burch (55:33.998)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Burch (55:41.47)
Yeah, I think it does ebb and flow for sure. And I think it's, I think it Collins, the flywheel principle. I think there's gotta be enough leaders who consistently just keep pushing on that flywheel to keep it going. And really Rob, to circle back to where we were before, I really longed to see a movement of evangelical leaders coming together and saying, Hey, for the sake of the gospel, for the sake of the country, we will partner together.
Rob Chartrand (55:55.302)
Right.
Mark Burch (56:10.27)
with true kingdom mindedness. The challenge that I see emerging again is whether it's, whether it reflects the nationalism in politics that we're seeing in North America these days, that tribalism is rising again. And so if you're not working with my denomination, then we probably can't help you. I had a planter that we're friends with recently, had a buddy call him, say, hey, our church wants to help support you.
which was great, needed to raise money. And then the phone call came later saying, shoot, I have to tell you that met with our elders and because you're not in our denom, we can't send you money. And I thought, man, what a heartache. The gospel is being preached, people are coming to faith and being baptized. You share common theology, but because you don't have the same denominational label, you're not willing to work with us. I think that's part of it.
But I do think God needs to raise up again and praying for that local pastoral leaders who have a heart for it in their city, in their region. One of the books I've really been inspired by in the last couple of years, Together for the City, Neil Powell, who is a Redeemer guy in the UK, tells the story of how in Birmingham,
Rob Chartrand (57:20.483)
Hmm.
Mark Burch (57:26.514)
A group of five pastors started this thing, got together, just began to pray for their city for a church planting movement to emerge. And to make a long story short, they said, could we together see 20 new churches in our city of a million in the next decade? And by God's grace, in nine years, they had seen 20 churches planted through their network of friendships. Eventually, 70 churches are now part of that. And they've cast a new vision to plant 30 more churches by 2030.
Rob Chartrand (57:40.591)
Wow.
Mark Burch (57:56.426)
So that would mean 50 new churches in 20 years in a city of a million. Cross multi denominations and very, very interesting because they acknowledge there's some things we may not be able to plant together, but we can help each other plant. So, a paedobaptist and a credo-baptist are not gonna plant a church together because you differ on a significant issue. And yet you're both leading people to faith in Christ. So you're like.
Rob Chartrand (58:00.484)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (58:18.201)
Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah.
Mark Burch (58:23.018)
Okay, I don't care at this moment in time whether you baptize babies or you don't. If you're leading new pre-Christians to faith in Christ, I'm for you and I'm with you. So can we hold each other up with assessment and coaching and training and support? So I would love to see a movement like that locally where in each city and region, there's a group of pastors would come together and say, okay, we will begin to pray. The church will own it. We won't wait for an outside network to come in.
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (58:54.477)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, it's completely doable. I mean, I love the spirit of C2C when I was involved in it. I mean, a lot of guys there are from acts 29 network tradition, complementarian theologically, and I'm coming out of a tradition where I'm much more egalitarian, right? And jury's still not out on that 100% I hold all things loosely. But you guys welcome me in, we work together, it was like, it wasn't even an issue because
what's important is who's at the center and what is Christ and the gospel and the mission and the Holy Spirit. And so like 99.9% of things we're agreeing on but that one little thing was like, let's go plant churches. Let's
Mark Burch (59:37.702)
Yeah, yeah, yes, for sure. And I think Rob pastors, if I learned anything from the demise of C2C when it went through a massive kind of unwinding four years ago, was that in many cities, it felt like the church money movement effectively stalled. And what it said to me was without the outside catalyst coming in, so, you know, without you and Edmonton leading it, without other guys in other cities,
So without a national staff person coming in, catalyzing an event, they, in many regions, like overnight, they just disappeared. What it said to me was, okay, that means the local pastors didn't actually own this. It was being driven along by a network, which was fine. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily. But I'm like, had it been owned by the local churches, then that network catalyst would have just simply been pouring fuel on the local fire.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:14.011)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:18.941)
That's right.
Mark Burch (01:00:34.022)
And so, you know, city to city Canada is just getting, you know, their legs under them of getting formally started up here. And I'm, I'm hopeful that that's going to have some legs in the coming years, because it's, it's clearly a multi-denominational and willing to stretch the boundaries of who we work with across the country. And I'd love to see that happen. Love to be part of it. Love for you to be part of it.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:55.493)
Yeah. Well, happy to help. Um, well we're, we are getting close to, I don't want to keep you forever, Mark. So let's, let's give you a chance just to give a final word to encourage our ministries leaders who are out there. Um, you get it. You know, uh, the challenges of ministry, uh, you know, the joys of ministry, uh, any final word you want to share with our listeners?
Mark Burch (01:01:21.974)
Yeah, you know what? I don't know that I have any great deep word of wisdom that's anything new, Rob, but I was just reminded last week, sitting in a seminar and it was just good reminder. It was a reflection on Tim Keller's life and ministry. And talking about the three components, three legs of the stool, if you will, that made his life and ministry so significant. And number one was the theological mooring.
a gospel centrality, just a deep, deep theological well, a love for the scriptures, a love for sound doctrine, and a willingness to say, you know, I'll do the hard work of, you know, drilling a deep well and being a man or woman of the word that is driven along by sound theological orthodox history and all of that. But secondly, and this came out of his training under Edmund Clowney, that if that is not coupled with a deep warmth and abiding of the spirit,
Rob Chartrand (01:02:11.901)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Burch (01:02:17.774)
So a love of the people, a love of the church, and a true life-giving encounter with the Spirit of God, which reminded me then of R.T. Kendall's book, Holy Fire, that talks about the divorce of the Spirit and the Word people. So the Word people are all about theology, and that's great, and the Spirit people are all about the Holy Spirit moving, and that's great too. But the two don't tend to work together or talk together.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:33.267)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:42.235)
Yeah.
Mark Burch (01:02:42.654)
And that if we get the two of those things in tandem, this deep, deep love of the church, a love of the word. And you know, there's sometimes I'm in a service where it's theologically sound, it's orthodox, the teaching is awesome. And then I just have this sense of my spirit, but is the Holy Spirit here? Like is there room for the Spirit of God to move? Like is my heart warmed, am I stirred? And I'm not talking about emotionalism, but there needs to be emotion, there needs to be heart, there needs to be a joy in the Lord. So I think
those two stools, or legs of the stool, if you will, theological moorings and a warmth of the heart. And then the third leg, of course, is contextualization. So it's like the theological moorings, the warm heart, it's different in Saskatchewan than it is in BC. It's different in Canada than it is in the US, certainly. It's different in the US than it is in Europe. Like we have our daughter and son-in-law are church-binding in Berlin. That environment is completely different.
Rob Chartrand (01:03:19.225)
Hmm.
Mark Burch (01:03:38.666)
than the North American environment. So they have to contextualize. So, you know, I think for pastors to just say the joy of spending deep, rich time and study, don't give that up. Never, never let your heart grow cold. Do whatever you need to do to stay warm in the disciplines of walking with Jesus, just your love relationship with Jesus.
Rob Chartrand (01:03:42.022)
Hmm.
Mark Burch (01:04:03.806)
And then secondly, continually to ask the Lord, okay, in the context I'm in, literally the city that I'm in, the neighborhood that I'm in, the province I'm in, what are the realities in this? I don't think it's so much an anti-Christian culture we're in as it is, it's post-Christian and then perhaps pre-Christian once again. There is a friend out there for sure that are anti-Christian. We hear them all the time.
But I think the majority of at least the people that I bump into on the streets here in our city are not anti-Christian. It's just irrelevant. They have no connection to the gospel. So I think we still have great opportunity, but we have to understand our context and pray into it. So yeah, I guess that would be my simple thing, those three legs of that stool.
Rob Chartrand (01:04:35.525)
Yep, yep, absolutely.
Rob Chartrand (01:04:47.993)
Yeah, so good, so good, yeah. Word, spirit, and gospel contextualization, yeah. Where you're at, wherever God has placed you, yeah. Good. Well hey Mark, thanks so much for joining us. We'll have to get you back on here again sometime in the future to hear more about what God's doing in your local context.
Mark Burch (01:04:53.451)
Yep, you got it.
Yeah.
Mark Burch (01:05:07.951)
Appreciate it, Rob. God bless you. Okay, bye.
Rob Chartrand (01:05:09.049)
Yeah, bless you, bye.