My entire lifetime, I felt like as a believer that I have just been and our Christian community has just been in this siege mentality where culture is against us, our numbers are dwindling, and we just gotta hunker down and hold on and hope to survive until something happens.
Rob Chartrand:Welcome to Church in the North, a podcast by ministry leaders and for ministry leaders. I'm your host, Chartrand, and I'm joined by my cohost, Geoff Dresser. Say hello, Geoff. Hey, Rob. And our other cohost, our token resident next gen expert, Chris Drinnan.
Chris Drinnan:So hi,
Rob Chartrand:Chris. Love that introduction. Hello, everyone. And thanks everyone for jumping in on our conversation today. We've got a great, show ahead of us.
Rob Chartrand:Today, we have decided that instead of, having a guest interview, we're gonna have an in studio conversation, about an article that we just recently read and that I distributed to the team here. And it's about a very relevant topic, which is the next generation Gen z. So you guys got the article. It was published by CTV News about the religious resurgence of Gen z. Now I think we had a conversation about this about a month ago.
Rob Chartrand:We were talking about Gen z and can we call it a quiet revival, and we had some, some witty, conversation about that. So, guys, I wanna know, what's this first of let's start with the article. What what's, Chris what's this article all about? Can you give us a bit of a summary?
Chris Drinnan:Sure. I took a few notes on this, so I'll refer to my notes and give you a walk through here. So, yeah, it shows that for the first time in decades, attendance is up at churches, amongst the Gen Z. So that's your 15 to 29 year olds. The main kind of church that they focused on was the Saint Paul's at Bloor Street in Toronto.
Chris Drinnan:Young adult attendance grew from 45 to 500 since the pandemic, which is incredible. It seems as though Gen Z, they're searching for something meaningful. They're searching for community. They're searching for something authentic. It seems as though this is all in response to secularism's disappointing provision of freedom and fulfillment fulfillment that it just wasn't able to deliver.
Chris Drinnan:They also do some stats in there. There's Stats Canada. So from 2022, twenty two percent of Canadians, so that's 15 to 24 age range. They're they attend religious services, which is the highest adult demographic attending churches. There's another study that found that Gen Z's positive view of religion rose from 35% to 40% where every other demographic declined.
Chris Drinnan:Theirs is rising. And the whole why is that they're looking for something real in a world that feels filtered and transactional.
Rob Chartrand:Wow. Okay. And there's there's a little bit of information there about the difference between men and women too. Totally.
Chris Drinnan:Talks about the gender gap where it seems as though it's primarily young men that are reengaging with church, and actually, like, maybe a bit of a decline with young women. Right.
Rob Chartrand:Yep. Okay. Very cool. So, Jeff, like
Geoff Dresser:First of all, excellent, synopsis of the article. That's a that's a that's a b plus right there, man. Well done.
Chris Drinnan:I did take some notes knowing that I was gonna be called on to give the summary for the article.
Rob Chartrand:Hoping for a PowerPoint presentation and maybe some flannel board.
Chris Drinnan:That's here. That's here for when we go video, everyone will
Rob Chartrand:The access today are into the flannel board. You know, they want something real and tangible. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:The flannel board.
Rob Chartrand:Nothing's more, incarnational than a flannel board. That's all I'm saying.
Chris Drinnan:They should make a comeback. We should bring it back.
Rob Chartrand:I wanna do, like, a a a church sermon series called flannelgraph memoirs and tell bible stories with flannelgraph to the congregation.
Chris Drinnan:It'd be a hit. Guaranteed. You'd have kids would be captivated by it for sure. And I think adults in the congregation too.
Rob Chartrand:Zoom in, like, with the you know, so that they could you know, because not everybody in the back row could see the all the, you know, intricacies of Joseph's colored coat
Chris Drinnan:and We're all on video now. Right? We're all
Geoff Dresser:got those high
Chris Drinnan:those quality cameras
Geoff Dresser:on the rails already. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Okay. So, Jeff, what do you think? You know, harkening back to our conversation a couple weeks ago, or four weeks ago now, do you think we were off base? This this article, say we're wrong in any way?
Geoff Dresser:Well, I think, you know, I may have, demonstrated some skepticism surprisingly, a few weeks ago when we talked about this and but this article was the I mean, it it had some hard stats from Stats Canada showing an uptick in religious attendance among Gen Z Canadians and to me that's the first, I mean that's the first indication that's giving me pause or tempting me to break out of my habitual skepticism. And so I was reflecting on this and just realized that like for my entire lifetime, I felt like as a believer that I have just been and our Christian community has just been in this siege mentality where the culture is against us, our numbers are dwindling and we just gotta hunker down and hold on and hope to survive until something happens. And, and you could see, you know, there'd be a church here that would be experiencing growth. But I mean, when you look at the statistics overall in Canada, church attendance is falling. So a little bit of growth in individual churches here and there was not the tide turning.
Geoff Dresser:But this is making me reconsider or what are like, God, are you, is this something that you are doing? And that's like I find myself daring to hope that this is real and that this is a long term change and that this is something that God is doing. At the end of the article, there's a guy who kind of throws a little bit of shade on the say, oh, this is just a phase that they're going through and says that we've seen a short term uptick in religious attendance in previous generations that did not last. But I mean, So, seeing the statistics along with hearing the stories, I'm daring to hope that the siege is over and that God is doing something. So, yeah, that's where, but I mean, as I reflected on this, I thought back to an incident about twenty years ago in my life, I had a family member who was very sick and suffered from depression and headaches.
Geoff Dresser:And they went to a church service and they were prayed over and they were healed. And they told us all that they were set free and no more headaches and what a wonderful miracle this was. And I don't know how else to describe it, but like a week or two later, it just kind of wore off and they were back in the same place where they started. And I remember, I mean, not really like the way I sort of process that was that like, well, it was just sort of this euphoric experience that felt good, but it wasn't an actual healing and thinking that, know, still believing that God could do something, it could sovereignly heal. But he hadn't at this time.
Geoff Dresser:And it, I think it placed in me this idea that yeah, could do something, he could just intervene but he might not and he probably won't. And so don't get your don't get your hopes up. And so that, I mean, that's something that that's just kind of part of the baggage that I carry with me. Right. And I'm just gonna keep going because I'm on a roll here.
Geoff Dresser:I think of the story, the siege of Samaria in two Kings where king of Aram has Samaria under siege and everyone is starving to death. Right. Elisha is in the city and you know, the king goes to Elisha and Elisha says, you know, tomorrow they're gonna be whatever you're gonna like he puts it in economic terms and but anyway, food is gonna be cheap and readily available by tomorrow. And the king's servant says, like, how could this be? The king's servant is skeptical like I am want and to Elisha looks at him in like a, I imagine in a Clint Eastwood voice and says, you'll see it but you won't taste it.
Geoff Dresser:And then later on in the story when the the, you know, the siege breaks, that king's servant is at the door of the city gates and gets trampled by all the people running out to, experience victory that God brought. I mean, God just destroyed the army of the Aramites. And, so I don't want to be that guy, right? I want to, you know, I want to have faith and man, would be so, I mean, is what I have been praying for and longing for to see revival come and for it to come in the gen z generation would be, would be, I mean, such a an amazing beautiful thing, a wonderful thing for for our country and for the for the whole world.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Well, would you is it fair to say that like four weeks ago we were hopeful but there was no evidence? Like, so we're like, show me the evidence like or is the evidence seemed anecdotal or maybe across the pond?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And so like in the siege of Samaria, there are the four lepers who, are wondering what to do. They're in Samaria and they're like, well, we stay here, we'll die for sure. If we go out to the Aramaites, then we'll probably die. So die for sure or probably, well, let's take probably die.
Geoff Dresser:Because I think maybe they'll have mercy on them and then if they do, they've got food. So there's a very small chance. So they go out and they see that the army has been defeated and they've all hightailed it away, they're gone. And so as they are enjoying the spoils of this victory of God, they realize we should probably go back and tell the people in the city. So they go back and tell the people in the city and the king and his officials are like, are you sure?
Geoff Dresser:Like, and so they said they wanna send some people out to verify this. And so maybe that's what we were I don't know. I mean, it's we're getting into dodgy hermeneutical territory here. But I mean, that's kind of where I'm at with this. And I've even felt like when I mean, I sense God's calling for me to come here to Briarcrest eight years ago.
Geoff Dresser:And as I got here and sort of learned the history, I mean, there was a, at one time enrollment in Bible colleges all throughout North America was way higher than it is today. But I kind of felt like, again, that siege mentality, like we need to keep this going and keep and hang on so that when revival comes, we're still here and we can equip that in rush of young people who want to serve the church, will feel called back to the Lord and called into ministry. And so we have to hold on and preserve this so that we're ready when that time comes. And so is that time coming? Is it now like, oh Lord, like please, yes, let this be.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well, and I I think you're right in that in in the sense that if God is doing what we hope that he's doing, the worst thing we can do is just say, oh, throw up our hands and say, oh, the job's done. Because Right. This is just I mean, this is just an uptick in numbers right now. Like, there there's so much more that God can and will do.
Rob Chartrand:And I think we we it's do we lean into it? Do we run from the city and go and look, or do we stay inside and say, oh, you know, live together, die alone? I don't know. Yeah. That now that's mixing metaphors.
Rob Chartrand:Right? That's that's a deep cut. You know? Some some lost there being brought in. Chris, anything you found interesting about the article?
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. I think there's lots in there. So the thing like, I'm excited about that the research is backing that there's an uptick, especially amongst that demographic. And I'd say even in our own church, like, we had we've kind of been slow to the young adult game and kind of, like, always just thought, like, when you graduate, just, like, plug in volunteering at the church and kind of becomes
Rob Chartrand:You naturally be yeah. Fit in.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. And but we've had, like, kinda, like, young adult, more like small group sort of spark up, and we've got a couple of them going. And there there is a there's a growing sort of interest where they they really enjoy meeting together for the community and and all the things that the article talked about. I'm, like, checking them off going like, oh, I'm seeing this happen in our young adults group, which is exciting. The thing the whole nowhere in the article does it ever point to Jesus.
Chris Drinnan:Like, I mean, it's talking about the church, but I'm like, oh, interesting. Like, nobody Yeah. Like, even the pastors on it, like, nobody's actually saying, like, Christ is giving hope. Like, people are encountering Jesus. And I was like, okay.
Chris Drinnan:Like, that not that that's I'm like, that that's interesting. I I would hope that as people flood churches, the thing that's causing to stick is not because the crowd is there and there's some excitement around it, but that they're actually encountering Christ and experiencing hard transformation. Like, that would be my longing because that's gonna be the thing that's gonna separate it from just being a a swell in attendance and then people being disenfranchised with the institution again or or frustrated over stuff and leaving. I go, the thing that's gonna hold them is is a commitment to Christ.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And I go,
Chris Drinnan:that that separates the the disciple from the crowd is that. So I I would hope to see that. Love that there's like a spiritual curiosity that's seems to be part of this Gen Z's thing. They're looking for meaning, which I go, again, these are all things these are the hungers that Christ came to satisfy. And I love the I love that it's pointing towards a shift between remember when we thought that, like, because of COVID, we just thought, like, digital ministry is it?
Chris Drinnan:Like, I remember running youth online where there's a camera at the front of the stage and I'm there trying to work a Zoom crowd and I got people in the back and we're, you know, we're doing all these fun interactive games and we're like, this is gonna be the future.
Geoff Dresser:And for a while, we did a
Chris Drinnan:hybrid where it was like, had people in person and we're still on the thing and I was like, like, is this gonna is this just a whole and yeah. I don't think it is because I think the numbers are sort of showing that this idea of embodied community and actually being with people in a shared space, shared values, that there's something to that that you just can't get from the online online interaction. And so I'm I'm I'm hopeful and excited, yeah, about those things.
Geoff Dresser:Interesting. I I did my doctoral thesis on online worship. Serious? And my my So for my, we did this action research thing where you, where you do some teaching with a group and then you measure, you know, whether your intervention worked or not. And so I, when I started working on it, it was at the very beginning of COVID and so many church leaders were just so hot to trot about online ministry and what a great thing it was.
Geoff Dresser:And my thing was like, no, no, this is, this is so much weaker than embodied in person. And so my intervention was to convince a group of students, I was teaching a class, convince them that online worship was was not the hope of the future that embodied physically co presence in worship was essential in an incarnational faith. And so by the time I got to that stage in my project, we'd had a year and a half of online worship and everyone was sick of it and hated it. Yeah. And so when I did like my initial survey of like, what are your attitudes towards online worship?
Geoff Dresser:They were all like, we hate it, it sucks. And I was like, uh-oh. You're freezing
Chris Drinnan:to the choir.
Geoff Dresser:Supposed to move the needle there. You guys are starting there, what am I Yeah. But it was like, I agree with that, like so much that that online worship thing, we've experienced that, like and COVID sort of took plain old fashioned community, took that away from from Gen Z's and they were deprived of that for a couple of years and that has created a hunger for it and made it like, wow, it's cool to actually get together with people in a building and sort of just do normal stuff together. Yeah. As opposed to having it mediated through their phone, which I mean so much of their lives are already mediated through digital media and their phones and know, looking at screens that it is a, it's something that's so different that it is, it just has had that natural appeal.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And that novelty appeal is not enough, like you said. Like it's the transformation that they will experience when they encounter Christ that's going to, that's gonna make the long term difference in their lives and create that actual revival rather than, you know, we're just the next fad.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Mean I mean the, unfortunately, it's a it's a secular news agency, so they're not going to track that. And off oftentimes sociological surveys don't track that. They don't look at meaning. They just look at representative numbers, attendance, butts, and seats, and that sort of a thing.
Rob Chartrand:Right? So but they can.
Chris Drinnan:Like, care
Geoff Dresser:about the stuff that we care about.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Right? Not always. Not always. Would just wait for that
Chris Drinnan:that Anglican to just be like
Geoff Dresser:More popular.
Chris Drinnan:There's there's crosses in the background of the videos.
Rob Chartrand:Awesome. You know, I I I wanna lean into a part of the article here where it says, Ngozi attributes, so that's one of the the researchers that they talk to, this sudden interest in faith and organized religion to a desire for authenticity authenticity. And then it continues. She says, Gen z is craving something real in a world that often feels filtered, performative, and transactional. Transactional.
Rob Chartrand:Chris, Chris, you you had had said this. They're growing up in a time when community can mean group chats and comment sections. And here's what what she finally concludes. So organized religion offers something Koreans can't. Three things.
Rob Chartrand:Number one, shared values. Number two, physical presence. So we've already touched on that, like the the physical. Right? And number three, deeper purpose.
Rob Chartrand:So I wanna touch on both of those for a quick second here. So I wanna talk about deeper purpose, and bear with me for a second as I as I kind of unpack this. So I've been doing research for, a presentation I'm doing at at the youth worker community conferences on, resiliency and suffering in a hedonistic world. So that's what I'm talking about with emerging gen. And, I I came across the world happiness report that was published in 2024.
Rob Chartrand:And so they look at a 143 nations across the world, and they measure their happiness. And I could get into how they measure it, but I I I think it's it's it's a pretty decent metric that they use. And they ranked Canada, and we ranked number 18 in the world for happiness. And then The US, I think, was, like, 25 or 28. So, you know, stick it to tariffs.
Rob Chartrand:I mean, we're a little bit happier than South Side. Anyway, but a lot of the nations that are at the top are very similar. Like, there's very, very small marginal differences between them. So we're we're very similar in this top group. And that's across all age groups.
Rob Chartrand:But then they looked at the data for, 30, and Canada drops from 18 to, I think, 43.
Geoff Dresser:Oh.
Rob Chartrand:And The US drops from their number down to, like, 58 or something like that. And what they discovered in that World Happiness Report is that, the general trend of all nations across the world is that young people are happier than old people. Like, that's typically what the data reveals. So you get older, I don't know, you you've life gets harder, you know, your body's falling apart, whatever. You get less happy according to their metric.
Rob Chartrand:But in four nations on the in their study, four nations, it's flipped. United States, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, young people are less happy. So you think of industrialized nations, high-tech technology, or something that our cultural moment and whatnot. So there's this there's this, sense of, unhappiness. Now so when we look at this deeper purpose idea, I I'm reflecting on that.
Rob Chartrand:And and I think, you know, technology, I think, plays a big significant role in that. I mean, the data's out on that and you read Jonathan Haidt's anxious generation and he talks about how social media and technology is driving unhappiness, especially in young women.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I'd love to see a graph of like smartphone usage. I've gone with that. Like, I'm sure that Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:My finished 100 class. I just saw the graph up and I said, what does the data tell you? You know? So so from 2012 onwards, you can see higher, incidence of young young people attending clinics, suicidal ideation, like general unhappiness, like it's just off the charts. Drug use increase, it's just all since 2012.
Rob Chartrand:And not just like a little bump up, like huge spike, like, and it continues to rise. So there's that, there's the push into the self and the therapeutic, I think that plays a contributing role in that, lots of things. Anyway, I I also think that we don't often talk about is, the way that we think the postmodern thinking that drives all of this that's behind it. Whereas we're suspicious of all truth, we've disconnected from what we would call the, the vertical plane. So we've disconnected from eternity.
Rob Chartrand:We've disconnected from religious belief. We took all of that, and we're seek we're as human beings, we're meaning makers, and we're meaning finders. Like, we we look for meaning. But now when you collapse this vertical frame, as Charles Taylor would say, we seek for meaning desperately here along the horizontal plane. And that drives us into material things, it drives us into technology, and it drives us into the self.
Rob Chartrand:And I think we're at a cultural moment now where the next generation is finally saying, I cannot find meaning here along the horizontal plane. It is void, and and it's driving them into nihilism in many ways. And so now there's this great turnabout where they're saying, okay. Maybe there is something more. Maybe there is meaning in faith and religion and and beyond that.
Rob Chartrand:So that's that's my take on on what's happening, and and that's an undercurrent. It's behind the scene. It's not overt. You don't see it. It's not explicitly stated, but it's an it's our cultural assumptions about faith and the eternal and about God that I think, you know, that god shaped vacuum, Blaise Pascal, you know, it's just driving us back to to God.
Rob Chartrand:So I don't know. Is is that too far fetched? Too far out there?
Geoff Dresser:No. I I mean, I I totally I like, I believe we we tell not only the true story, but a much better story. Yeah. And and I just think sort of one strand in that that search for meaning along the horizontal plane of environmentalism where environmentalists have been saying for decades that the world is gonna end in a few years you guys, unless we do it and then we keep missing the unless we do this things and it's been doom and gloom. Existential crisis.
Geoff Dresser:Nonstop. And so for for someone who is is raised in that milieu to suddenly hear a story of hope and that, no, we're not doomed. In fact, there's gonna be a new heaven and a new earth and a new creation and all of creation is being redeemed and it's not you who has to do it, it's already been accomplished by this all knowing, all powerful, all loving God. I mean, is a I could see how that has been attractive and as a I may have mentioned this before on the podcast, but I have a very, very, Pentecostal friend who would always say whenever things were hopeless, he would always say, wow, these are the perfect conditions for a miracle. So, and I feel like our society has created the perfect conditions for a revival telling young people especially like it's hopeless, the world's gonna end, you are oppressed, you are a victim and there's nothing you can do about it.
Geoff Dresser:And so, the church comes in, when they encounter Christ who says, no, no, no, you are fearfully and wonderfully made and I am with you and I love you and I have redeemed you and I have a plan for your life and a plan for the whole world that you can be a part of. Like, I I think that is incredibly attractive and it has the added benefit of being true. Yeah. It's not just a better fantasy.
Rob Chartrand:Mhmm.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. It is it is the truth and I mean, the truth has to break through at some point. Right?
Chris Drinnan:Where it's not something that's sort of just showing up that's like new. It's not the new shiny, like we're we're kind of sick of new and shiny that we use for ten minutes and just toss. Like Yeah. You look back and you go, this has, like, a historical weight. This has been around.
Chris Drinnan:Like, I mean, it was the whole reason know, turn of the century, first century where, like, Rome just cannot squash Jews, cannot squash what they believe. So they allow like and they have a an appreciation for what's old and historic. And so, like, because, you know, it it got to thrive under Roman rule
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:And create conditions that were perfect for Christ coming on the scene. Right? And I yeah. I just love the way that it's not something that's new and flashy, but it's something that just there's this there's the thread of it all the way back through throughout history,
Rob Chartrand:which is incredible. Yeah. And I mean, the suspicion of postmodernism is, like, they're suspicious of meta narratives, particularly meta narratives tied to, like, the enlightenment ideals. But, I mean, nevertheless, overall, they're suspicious of meta narratives. And I
Geoff Dresser:think we've Which is a meta narrative.
Rob Chartrand:Which is a meta narrative. Yeah. There's a circularity in that thinking. But it's it's gotten old. Like, I I think people are saying, I I want to be tied to a larger story.
Rob Chartrand:Like, there's got to be more than this life here, you know, which, again, is that nihilism. So, another thing I wanna go back to so remember I said shared values, physical presence, and deeper purpose. So we've kinda hung on the last two, but I wanna go back to that shared values thing. What do you think about that? Like, I'm so I've I've first of I'm thinking about Jonathan Haidt's book, the anxious generation later on.
Rob Chartrand:He talks about, how people who are from a conservative, spectrum are actually more happy than people who are from a liberal perspective. That's fascinating. Right? And and here, just to be clear, I'm not I'm not trying to be, in any way, you know, focused on this particular political party. That's not what I'm saying.
Rob Chartrand:But but I think it's that that conservative values sector that tends to be actually happier than others. Right? And so so there's actually a move with the next generation to move towards more conservative values as well. And of course, you're going to find that in the church typically, as opposed to, maybe more progressive ideological, values. And then and then what about the Wesley Huff phenomenon as well?
Rob Chartrand:So what do you guys think about values? Any anyone you want to jump in on that? The whole values idea is
Geoff Dresser:I'm in favor of values. No. I mean, I think Yeah, I don't want to get too political here, but I mean, one of the things that ties like values to the conservative values to deeper purpose is that in our Christian worldview, we know what to do with suffering. It doesn't make it easy. Right.
Geoff Dresser:But we understand that or we can make meaning out of it and whereas I think if you take God out of the picture, then I mean suffering is just bleakness and darkness. And, so I mean, I think that to me again, I am so far outside of my area of actual training and expertise that, I'm out on a limb here. But I do think that if you can, make some sort of peace with the fact that you are gonna suffer in your life and that that is God's will, but he's in control and he uses it and God himself suffers. Yeah. That, and that the suffering has a purifying purpose in our lives and it will end.
Geoff Dresser:And somehow mysteriously in the same way that the suffering of the cross ended up in the most glorious triumph in all of history, our suffering will somehow be undone in the final redemption of all things. And so we can have hope even in suffering. Whereas if, I mean, if you stay on that horizontal plane, you're on your own, man.
Rob Chartrand:Meaningless, meaningless, everything is meaningless. And
Geoff Dresser:so I think, yeah, I mean that, finding actual, like real people that you can physically be together with who share that together is such a source of encouragement and strength. And we were created for that. We were not, we were created to be in community and to share our suffering together and to bear one another's burdens. And so, I mean, yes, God's plan works. Well,
Rob Chartrand:I mean, you can certainly link that to, the mental health crises. Young people are experiencing suffering, right, and struggling with resilience. And so, I mean, to to have a message that can make sense of that in a very concrete and comprehensive way, I mean, is is certainly gonna be attractive. I mean, if I was just to put on my sociological lens, I mean, for sure. I mean, apart from the fact that it's true and it's real and God is with us in our suffering because he himself has suffered.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Chris, any thoughts?
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. I just think it's pretty tough to have, authentic community without a sense of shared values. And I just think the church, while there's room for a lot of different opinions and stuff that they they gather around the person of Jesus Christ as a as the shared value. And so there's a sense of unity and working together, in being like, representing his body that I think, I don't know, is, like, gets you over a lot of hurdles of doing community. Right?
Chris Drinnan:It it allows a lot more room for extending grace, growing together, seeking understanding, hearing each other out, negotiate forgiveness is a huge part. And I just go like, being a part of a community like that where you're free to get things wrong. You can you can be yourself and there's room for dialogue and even debate where you're you're staying in the same room. You're not getting mad and upset and leaving where you're you're sitting down and hashing this stuff out. You have enough time and opportunity to do some life together where you just go, like, these are my people.
Chris Drinnan:And there's I know there's something really attractive about that. And I think, like, the scripture points to, you know, at the at the the dawn of the church about there was something incredibly attractive about this community of people who weren't holding on and hoarding their wealth, but they were actually giving it up and sharing and and being willing you know, it was all about love and being together and community, and they, you know, they were centered around the scriptures, and it generated, it was attractive because people were missing that. And I I don't know. I think that still holds true for today.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I I I guess I'm I'm also thinking about, what's happening, in in culture about people starting to agree that the Christian values are good for a culture, good for society, like that even people who are, like Richard Dawkins, who's who's, like, one of the four horsemen and one of the atheists, has come out and he said, I'm a cultural Christian. You know? And Jonathan Haidt would say this as well. He's an agnostic.
Rob Chartrand:He they would say, like, even though, you know, I don't agree with, say, the resurrection and and all of that, I see that the the historical good that Christianity has brought to culture is necessary for us. Yeah. And and they're they're willing to lean into it and support it. Right? So talking about shared values, there is an attractiveness about that that those values that are important for, I I think, the health of a nation, health of families, etcetera.
Rob Chartrand:So, I can see that a certain attraction to that for emerging generations. You gotta think as well, like the emerging generations, how many of them have come up in broken homes more than statistically more than ever before. Right?
Geoff Dresser:Mhmm.
Rob Chartrand:And that some of them are seeing the vacuousness of, like, the drug culture or the sex culture. Right? Just realizing that that stuff here on the material plane, again, it's just it's just coming up empty and they want something more and they want meaning in life. What do you guys think of the, the the terminology they're using? So, you know, we've been talking about the Quiet Revival, but they don't use the word term Quiet Revival.
Rob Chartrand:Instead, they they use the term religious resurgence. Chris, any thoughts about that? How do you feel about that phrasing?
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. I I like it because I was thinking about doing something about this in the idea of religious resurgence versus quiet revival. So one, religious resurgence sounds a lot more sociological. Okay. In terms of its nature, and it's about kinda number it's tracking the numbers and the uptick.
Chris Drinnan:And Quiet Revival, it seems more spiritual to me. Like, this idea of, like, speaking, like, matters of the heart. And so I was kinda I was like, I guess they kinda both work together, it makes sense if, like, you know, it's a news outlet that's not wanting to have a, you know, religious leaning or something like that, that you're gonna be focused more on, yeah, kinda more on the numbers and the like, more on what's happening on the outside versus maybe what's happening on the inside. And my my hope is is that it isn't just attendance that's Right. Increasing in churches and a popular kind of cultural thing
Rob Chartrand:Yes.
Chris Drinnan:But that it's actually something that it's it's indicative of what's happening on the inside, that there are hearts that are being renewed, being called to be disciples of Christ, and that that's that that's changing them, and they see the value of of meeting together in those communities.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Jeff, any thoughts on that? Do you like do you like the
Geoff Dresser:term? Which term do I
Rob Chartrand:Just resurgence?
Geoff Dresser:No. I feel like the, I mean, even if the reporter would have written a Quiet Revival, the, whatever the style guide would have said, oh, well, that's that sounds Christian y so we need to Yeah. Don't want to privilege I mean, calling it a religious resurgence doesn't privilege Christianity over Islam or Buddhism or any other religion. So, I I mean, like the term quiet revival but I would also just like an unqualified revival. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:Let's let's have people just falling down, weeping over there and repenting of their sins in the streets, know, like I I would I would love to see that but I mean, Lord, however you wanna do it, like I'm game, I'm ready and yeah, mean it is in some ways the fact that a I mean, I don't think CTV News is any big friend of the church. No. And the fact that they felt like we need to report on this
Chris Drinnan:is
Geoff Dresser:awesome and means that this isn't just a few of us in a holy huddle looking for some evidence to fulfill our wishes for something that's not really there. This looks like there's something real there that is happening.
Rob Chartrand:And isn't this surprising? Like, I think you go back to 2020 and just all of the bad press about the new about the church. Right? And and very very much framed in this victim power mindset and focused on, you know, certain and and, sure, the church the church has had its failures. Church large, universal church, has had its failures for sure across the world.
Rob Chartrand:But now to see a turnaround and see an article like this is very it's very surprising. Okay? I I I I don't I don't like I'm still not willing to use the word revival. So I I you know, technically, I I'm concerned we will conflate the terms, and it'll lose its meaning and its essence, and then everything suddenly revival. So I I I wondered if I could call it a spiritual resurgence.
Geoff Dresser:Okay.
Rob Chartrand:So combining the both. Right? So so that is, you know, it's heart centered, but it's also it is a resurgence for sure, but, I'm not it's not quite at a revival level.
Chris Drinnan:So I'm really interested. So for you to call it a revival, what would be the things that you'd need to see?
Rob Chartrand:Well, I think mass evangelism, mass repentance, unexplainable phenomenon, whereas, I mean, lots of this seems still somewhat explainable, but it's just it's like an only god type of and and I think the mass proliferation of evangelism across the whole yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Because how can you yeah. So I guess if you're looking at the evidence, could say you could say, how is it not just a pendulum swing from being isolated and disappointed with online stuff to young people being know that maybe there's something to the community.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well and and even, like like, town halls and church buildings packed and long lineups outside, people waiting to get in so that because they're desperate to hear the message so their lives can be saved and transformed. Like, that's that's revival.
Geoff Dresser:Sounds like the theater
Chris Drinnan:in Moose Jaw and, like, when was that? Like, the nineteen twenties or whatever when they were packing out theaters and preaching the gospel and Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Totally. Or or when the Suttera twins went through in the seventies. Okay. There was just an an unmistakable sense of transformation that's happening. So I'm I'm not I'm not a you know, I'm not God is doing something for sure, for sure.
Rob Chartrand:But I just I I just wanna be clear on the terminology, that's all. So so I did kinda like resurgence, but religious is just seems too too secularized for sure.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. My inner cynic is bubbling. I'm at war with myself just but but it's like part of me was like, is this resurgence? Is this just, you know, you hit rock bottom and then there's always a little bounce before you go right back down and like, is this just the bounce from hitting the very bottom and I hope it's not. And so like, I mean you were talking about sovereign inexplicable acts of God.
Geoff Dresser:I mean, I'm just thinking of the whole Charlie Kirk thing. And if if you had said, yeah, you're gonna have millions of people watching this, you're gonna have all of the A revival meeting that all of the leaders of the US government are gonna attend and be talking about Jesus. Like to me that is an only God type of thing.
Rob Chartrand:Right.
Geoff Dresser:And still we'll see how, you know, what are the long term effects of this going to be? Is it just a cultural phenomenon? And are there people who are just It's just the latest thing and going along with the flow and yeah, probably there are, but man, all the more reason to pray like Lord.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:Let let us be willing and open and ready to respond to what to what God's doing. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. And and all the more reason for us to really dig deep and invest in the emerging generation who are in the church and disciple them for, longevity in their faith throughout life. Like, I I think that that's important as well. I guess in my experience in pastoral ministry in thirty years, I I've seen ebbs and flows at times, and the church wasn't ready. And then, after that happens, the young people kinda dissipate and disappear, and and I I certainly don't wanna see that.
Rob Chartrand:I wanna I wanna see in in in churches that they're they're deeply invested in, and they find a place to use their gifts and to to be part of the church church family. I'm also I'm kind of from a charismatic background too. So, I mean, Chris, yeah, I mean, I've been in your movement, and and I can just remember so many times, like, the the preacher coming through town, there's gonna be a revival. And, you know, he's hitting us
Chris Drinnan:out of
Rob Chartrand:the pew, and and we sing the song, there's gonna be a revival. And everybody gets really excited and enthusiastic, and then three weeks later, you're back to normal. Like, you know what I mean? And and and, people I've seen people pointing fingers at, you know, this is this is it and this is it and this is it. Only for it to not so that's probably what makes me a little bit more hesitant to just jump in and just say, yeah.
Rob Chartrand:This is it. You know? But, the numbers don't lie. The numbers don't lie. Speaking of numbers, let's talk about, what we can learn about the gender gap and religious resurgence.
Rob Chartrand:So they jump into that at the end. What what are they what are they discovering? Jeff, you to wanna give a bit of a summary? Can you give a bit of a summary on what they're saying and about the religious gap?
Geoff Dresser:Well, I mean I think they were saying that there are 7% more men than, young men than young women. And I mean I think like if you do a, again, I haven't done my, the research department hasn't gotten back to me on the actual numbers, but like I think if you take the word masculinity and what's the number one sort of modifier of masculinity that you see, it's like toxic masculinity. And so I think like young men feel disenfranchised in the broader culture. Yeah. And yet there, I mean we believe, God makes men and women in the church we affirm that.
Geoff Dresser:And so there's a sense that where young men can can, live out their the destiny of who of how they were created to live and they can find meaning and shared values rather than feeling like they're, you know, I was born in a toxic state that I can't, that I can't do anything about or if I do want to do something about it though, I mean that's unthinkable. So, I mean I do think that the church offers meaning to young men and affirms them in a way that our current culture just is is falling well short of.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. I I can think back to when I was, say church planting in the 2010 to twenty twenties and typically, you'd find like a 60%, 40% spread between men and women in your local church. Like, there's a lot more women. And then there began this sharp decline in in number of women attending church.
Rob Chartrand:And and the article gets into a little bit of some of the reasons why that issues of, you know, ex evangelicals or LGBTQ issues and etcetera, etcetera. But now we're seeing an uptick, but what's interesting is like this article says like they're talking to one sociologist and it seems like this person is speaking as if the women are still declining or they've plateaued. But actually, you there's another link in there to the Barna research and the Barna says, no, the number of women is also increasing. It's just the number of men returning to church is greater than the number of women returning to church. So they're both returning, but the just the
Geoff Dresser:that's an important distinction because the men started at a deficit too. So are the men just catching up while they're all rising?
Rob Chartrand:It shows the data like a decade back and we'll put links to this in the show notes, but, so men are, but there's still more men returning than women. Like there's still more men than women in church, which phenomenal and fascinating.
Geoff Dresser:Right?
Rob Chartrand:So this is where I get back to the, like the Wesley Huff phenomenon as well. That I mean, here you've got this this guy who suddenly has been, like, been launched into popularity. Like, he's so he's with Apologetics Canada, and, course, you know, he, he got into this online debate, and he he just very graciously mopped the floor with this other gentleman who didn't know what he was talking about. Yeah. And then he I mean, he got bumped up to like, he ended up even being on Joe Rogan, which is the the most popular podcast in the world.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:And he's had a
Rob Chartrand:lot of places in. And he's presented a very reasoned faith, and and and graciously done that. But that coupled with, the the reality of of men feeling isolated in in our culture and marginalized in our culture, I think has has played a significant role. So I I our our brother, Matt Carter out east, he talks about men walking into his church because of Wesley Huff. Like, they they're they're watching him online, and it's just like it's it's like, okay.
Rob Chartrand:This makes sense. And, I'm I'm gonna give my give my life to Christ. So so there's those phenomenons as well.
Chris Drinnan:And I wonder if, like, the Charlie Kirk thing plays into that a little bit too, where where all of a sudden, like, a figure like that, a strong male guy Yeah. Out, like, speaking out and then, like, yeah, being assassinated almost becomes, like, a bit of a a martyr for masculinity again. Right?
Rob Chartrand:Like Right. Right. Yeah. But Yeah. I I yeah.
Rob Chartrand:I think I would I would I would say that he would play a a role as well. And so, you know, and and at the risk of mansplaining, you know, and and, you know, and or gaslighting, both are two terms that I I I just find very challenging because it's like, no. I just wanna look at the evidence. I just wanna look at the evidence. It's not it's not but I I think that that's there's there's been, there has been that marginalization.
Rob Chartrand:So the Me Too movement as well, had, you know, had an assumption, you know, that that the guy's gonna be in the wrong naturally. Right? And that's just just kinda made a lot of men retreat and just feeling where where do I go? What do I do? And yet now they're finding finding a return to faith is so important.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And I mean, and to be sure men have done monstrous things and used their, their position in society to, to do all sorts of terrible things. And, and things like me too though, no offer no healthy alternative or path to redemption. Right. Whereas the church, we know what to do with sin and to repent and seek forgiveness and to be restored.
Geoff Dresser:And, and we see people healed, through that and there's hope and a path forward for the future. And I do agree like Wesley Huff is a positive male role model and we don't have a whole lot of those in And our often the men that our culture holds up are not admirable according to our conservative Christian values. And so it's wonderful to see that. And the thing I love about Wesley Hough is that he is, I mean his apologetics argument are rock solid and but he doesn't shy away like his own story has supernatural elements to it and he doesn't deny the fact that no, it's this isn't just you can make a rational argument sort of privileging science over this. It's like, no, there is a supernatural God and that's the answer that makes the most sense.
Geoff Dresser:And so yeah, I love that and I love that. I mean, it's great that Wesley Huff is drawing people into the church into that actual authentic embodied, shared real experience rather than just staying in a disconnected sort of podcast, digitally mediated experience.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. And I think yeah. Again, I'm I'm I'm gonna lean into Jonathan Haidt here again a little bit from anxious generation, but he talks about how men need to stand shoulder to shoulder and face to face. Like, that's and and again, I know it's an overgeneralization, but it's generally true.
Rob Chartrand:Like, that that men want to stand in battle shoulder to shoulder with somebody, or they want to stand face to face with another guy and wrestle, like or or whatever whatever that type of wrestling looks like, whether it's intellectual or physical. And the challenge with our technology is is it's driven a lot of men into isolation, into rooms where there you know, there might be some online gaming. Right? But they're not in those incarnational relationships with other men. And I I I do think that the church could offer that experience.
Rob Chartrand:Although, like I remember reading a book in 2010, why men hate going to church. Have you guys ever read that?
Chris Drinnan:No.
Geoff Dresser:I have
Rob Chartrand:read that. Yes. Yeah. And and so I think men in church the premise of the book is that they want to actually be doing something, want their faith to be active. And so the idea of just sitting in circles, touching knees, holding hands, and singing kubayah is might not be enough.
Chris Drinnan:Not enough. Yep.
Rob Chartrand:And then their their their concern and Geoff, you can lean into this. This is your area of expertise. They talk about the feminization of worship and and how that's some of the ways that we do worship and whatnot doesn't really resonate as much with the way men are designed, by the nature of the songs or the way that we we involve, you know, or or the way that we do the worship and present in this very intimate type of framing. What do you think of that?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I mean, there's the whole, Jesus is my boyfriend genre of of worship songs and I think that And yet Christ does want an intimate relationship with us. So there are elements of that, I mean we can go overboard with that. Sure. And, but yeah, typically men resonate more with singing about an awesome, powerful, almighty God songs about the mission of God are more active.
Geoff Dresser:And I mean, with sort of the decline in church attendance by men where it's more Well, of course things are gonna look more like women are in charge because there simply are more women. So, mean know in worship ministry for years, I've been wanting more men to lead worship, to lead the singing because they're gonna connect more with the other men there. I mean, I found that book when it came out, I mean, I read and said like, I felt like this is an issue and that book was very good at diagnosing the problems but I didn't find a whole lot of solutions that I thought were, that were terribly helpful. But still, I mean, pointing to the problem is an important part of it. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:And I think I see that's, I mean, men are drawn more to, or again, I'm, this is anecdotal, I don't have the stats, but we're drawn more to traditional liturgical churches with, where, yeah, they aren't as touchy and feely. There's more of a historic mundane that you go through and rather than that more sort of feminine style
Rob Chartrand:that maybe some of our more contemporary churches. I've also seen like a resurgence of like, in terms of our worship choruses that we sing, they're very hymnal in the sense that like there's four verses, a chorus, and the four verses typically cover, like, the metanarrative of the gospel, like, so so many different parts of Yeah. There's a high Christology in them, which I think also is is very appealing rather than being just simply metaphorical intimate type of
Geoff Dresser:I love me my four verse full gospel story. Yeah. Modern hymn. And yeah, they are modern hymns.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:I love singing songs like that that tell the, here's what I was like before Jesus, here's what Jesus did for me and he rose again and here's how this whole story
Rob Chartrand:structure is that that herald his triumphant return. Yes. Right? Yes. So that that's significant.
Chris Drinnan:Don't wanna get off track, but were you at the Joshua Leventhal
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:Concert? I loved it, man.
Chris Drinnan:Man, his lyrics, like, I I it was referred to as, like, devotional listening. Yeah. And I'm, like, I I love Bible and scripture stuff and I just thought, like, the stuff he's doing, I was like, this is incredible. Like, I would I would play this for my Bible time just to soak in the truth of it all. Like I Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:I was really
Geoff Dresser:I sent him an email afterwards and said like, dude, you are a credit to the biblical studies and the worship programs at Briarcrest. The way he marries scripture, in song, he doesn't they're like no fluff. He doesn't shy away from the mysteries and the difficulties that we encounter in scripture and just honest and authentic And, yeah, it was awesome. Loved it.
Rob Chartrand:I was away, I missed it. I'm sorry.
Geoff Dresser:Can jump in with something that in the article that gave me pause? Okay. That they talked about how, know, the young people were coming back and they wanted like something real unfiltered and authentic. And when I read that, like I wondered like how much of my efforts in church ministry have been to filter what we do and the results make it less authentic to try to like, no, no, no, we're cool too. You can come to
Chris Drinnan:our church because we're
Geoff Dresser:cool too. We're just like, we're not weirdos. Like we fit with the culture, right? And that is something that I need to, I gotta spend some time thinking about that and looking at what I'm doing as a worship pastor and how I'm training the students here to lead and plan worship to make sure that we're faithful to scripture and faithful to the gospel and that we're not trying to sand down the rough edges or to conform it to some cultural expectation rather than just declaring the truth.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I wonder I wonder also like just on that thought, I mean, there's if a certain saltiness to what we do, like, this generation has grown up in a cancel culture where you're afraid to say anything that doesn't go that goes against, like, the mainstream ideological, you know, bent. And and it's because they don't want to get canceled or whatnot. So you have this large moderate middle who are just kind of stuck in limbo, you know, eating the popcorn, watching people fight across the great divide, the far left and the far right, but are like, I I really want somebody to tell me, you know, or to agree with what I believe or I want an opportunity to right? And and so I think there are churches that are just unabashedly just being who they are.
Rob Chartrand:Like, just this is the gospel. This is Christ. This is this is our our our biblical anthropology and how we see it and, that there is an attractiveness to that as well. So that's that, you know, that drive into
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Values. And I think there is something beautiful about people or about a community that just doesn't care about looking cool. Yeah. And that is like That's
Chris Drinnan:my MO as a youth leader, you see it?
Geoff Dresser:But that's like I oh, like that desire to be cool, like, oh man, like that's tough to just give up and there's a, know, we wanna be all things to all people and we do want to, we don't wanna so strange that we're incomprehensible to someone who's not already steeped in church culture. But man, we need to temper that because you can just go for trying to be cool to be fit in to trying to fit in and end up watering down the essential core of the gospel.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Well, the evidence demonstrates since the time that the word cool became cool in adolescent culture, that anybody who tries to be cool isn't cool. The person who's cool is somebody who just doesn't really care,
Geoff Dresser:doesn't want to
Chris Drinnan:be. Right.
Rob Chartrand:They're just authentically themselves, and and people will look at them. So, like, there's certain members of our faculty who, you know, who you would say, man, they don't dress hip and chic and man, they don't know all the lingo and all that. And yet every student will say, that guy's cool. He's he's he's so cool. I just love that guy.
Rob Chartrand:You know what I mean? So, I mean, why do we try to be so cool as a as a church? Does it just make make any sense? Hey, guys. This has been a great conversation, and there's so much more we could talk about.
Rob Chartrand:I would have loved to dive in on how our therapeutic preaching maybe has gotten men out of the church as well, but I don't have time to talk about that. But I'll just I'll just leave that
Chris Drinnan:Drop that bomb. Drop it. Just walk away. Yeah. Okay.
Chris Drinnan:That's It might be foreshadowing in the
Rob Chartrand:future conversation. Preaching concreteness, is is really being attractive to men as well. So, and women also. So I don't want to put it in the box. And and I want to dispel the idea that, when we talk about men, we think of guys with big burly beards and plaid shirts who are lumberjacks and drink a lot of scotch and dark black coffee.
Rob Chartrand:You know, that that kind of imagery that we have of of a real man. I don't think that's true. I think there's a whole spectrum of what it means to be masculine. So alright. Hey.
Rob Chartrand:Guys, thanks for joining me in the studio, this week. This has been Rich.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Thanks, Rob.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. This has been awesome. I've been
Rob Chartrand:happy to be in
Chris Drinnan:the room with you guys. Alright.
Rob Chartrand:You've been listening to the Church in the North podcast, a production of Briarcrest College. To learn more about Briarcrest, visit briarcrest.ca. We all know that when something is good, it's worth sharing, so why not pass on today's episode to a ministry leader or someone who will find it helpful? Also, don't forget to leave us a review, share your comments, or hit that subscribe button. We love questions and suggestions, so email us at podcast@Briarcrest.ca.
Rob Chartrand:And for more information about the podcast and our hosts, visit churchinthenorth.ca. Thanks for listening. Until next time.