Rob Chartrand (00:02.19)
Well, hey, we are so excited to have here on Church in the North, Dallas and Leah Butler, they are the lead pastors of the Rock Church in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. It's good to have somebody here from Saskatchewan. Welcome to the podcast.
Leah Beutler (00:16.561)
cold, the very very cold north.
Dallas Beutler (00:20.43)
Thanks a lot for having us. are happy and excited to be here.
Rob Chartrand (00:23.724)
Yeah. Yeah. And it is a cold week today. I don't know about you guys up there in Saskatoon, but we've got a cold plunge here in Moose Jaw. It's like minus 40 something with wind chill.
Leah Beutler (00:32.899)
Exactly.
Dallas Beutler (00:33.046)
Yep, people don't know we can exist in that, here we are thriving, thriving, thriving.
Rob Chartrand (00:36.43)
That's right. As long as we got power and gas, we're good. So let's get started. You guys are at a ministry conference and another pastor comes up to you and says, hey, as this often happens in ministry conferences, tell me about your church. How would you guys describe your church? Leah, what would you say?
Leah Beutler (00:38.147)
Yes, yes, we're thriving indoors.
Leah Beutler (00:59.919)
Yeah, that's always such a loaded question, how to drill it down to what our church is like. But we really love our church. We're in the inner city of Saskatoon. We have been there for 30 years. So we're right in a core neighborhood. And it has changed dramatically over the 30 years. But what has stayed the same is our community that we feel called to our community.
and we love our community. It started out that we felt, the founding pastor felt like we needed to support children and youth before they ended up in prison or in crime. And so that was the first vision for all of it. And that's kind of how we dove in was children and youth and outreach ministry and had the church going.
all the while.
Rob Chartrand (02:01.688)
Yeah, so that's a significant part of your church and really the heart of it. So we're gonna put a pin in that. I wanna do a deep dive on that in a few minutes. let's talk about your journeys into ministry. Did you both sense a call into ministry before you met? Or did you see each other across a room and it all came together, God and ministry and relationship?
Dallas Beutler (02:24.878)
Yeah, that was the most miraculous easy moment when it all came together in the first 30 seconds and the rest of life has been an uphill battle since then. I felt a call to ministry when I was a teenager. I grew up in a great Christian home. I had a great Christian extended family. up with cousins and uncles and aunts and grandparents.
Rob Chartrand (02:32.11)
you
Dallas Beutler (02:50.68)
Church, they love me well. Sunday school, youth group, the whole thing. I learned to play drums. One Sunday night, I pulled my drum set that my parents rented me into church on a Sunday night church service and it never left. And they just put up with me, preached my first sermon in that church and the community itself was on SRC and leadership stuff and sports and 4-H and just had kind of that dream that so many people just...
Rob Chartrand (03:06.286)
Wow.
Dallas Beutler (03:18.466)
don't get of so much support and love and a great environment. as I took my faith seriously, didn't always live it out the way I wished I would have, but felt that call, went to Bible school in Saskatoon at Central Pentecostal College, which is now Horizon College, which is not Briar Crest College, sorry Rob, but it's ours right on. And I love my son at Briar Crest and his fiance, Sydney.
Rob Chartrand (03:39.918)
We love our brothers and sisters at Horizon. Yeah.
Dallas Beutler (03:48.91)
came to school really with the thought that I'd be going into ministry, but did a program that also took you to university for a year. And that was kind of my test year to see if I'd go into veterinary medicine or something like that. That was also on the heart, but clearly got articulated that the call was real, had began working with an evangelist who became the founding pastor of the church. We're doing and just got in ministry right from the start. it's been since we've served together in ministry since before we were married.
and met at Bible school and God brought us together and has kept us together because it's not by our own strength, that's for sure.
Rob Chartrand (04:28.546)
Wow, okay. How about you, Leah? Where did it begin with you?
Leah Beutler (04:29.264)
true.
Leah Beutler (04:33.134)
Yeah, I also always felt a call to ministry, especially when I was 16 years old. I felt like God really clearly said that I was going to marry a pastor. So I started watching the pastor's wives in our church. So that was very interesting to see. You know, it looked so easy. It looked like that's a job I could do. And so I'm going to step into that. that was...
definitely just a surface look. It wasn't exactly the way that it really truly was. But when I went to Bible college, we met our first day after hearing about Dallas and being told I should date him, but from a friend, just a random thing and then not so random because God met, we met the next day.
Rob Chartrand (05:20.11)
Okay
Leah Beutler (05:28.336)
And I had told her, you know, I'm going to Bible college for Jesus, not for dating. And then three weeks, three weeks later, we were dating.
Dallas Beutler (05:34.56)
I've been working my whole life to be like Jesus. I've wanted to look like Jesus my whole life, so I'm glad it stuck at that point.
Leah Beutler (05:41.373)
Yes, it's true, you are God in skin to me. So, but we were dating three weeks later and we started doing ministry. I always say that I was a pastor's wife before I was a wife. So that was an interesting way to start our relationship and our ministry. But we're really privileged to be able to be in it. I'm happy to say that I feel privileged now.
Rob Chartrand (06:01.102)
Hmm. Wow.
Leah Beutler (06:10.596)
That was not always my story, but.
Rob Chartrand (06:12.62)
Yeah. So those models of pastors wives that you looked at back in the day, was it like different than say what you're experiencing now? Like they were more of the they all played piano, they all sang, they, you know, dressed in a certain way, had big hair, certain, you know, and
Leah Beutler (06:23.288)
Yeah.
Right. Yes, yes, you are down the path of what I saw. All of the pastor's wives, I remember sitting in the front row. So definitely it has informed a lot of what I do because I do sit in the front row. I do play the piano. I do lead worship. And I do work with the kids and I do, you know, I do a lot of those things. But, but what I didn't see was how much
Rob Chartrand (06:33.262)
Hahaha
Rob Chartrand (06:46.478)
you
Leah Beutler (06:58.188)
you need to be together in ministry and in one heart in order to provide the church the way to see what we're supposed to be as husbands love your wives and wives love your husbands. We try to lead out of our marriage because of that and it's changed quite dramatically because
Rob Chartrand (07:00.686)
Yeah.
Leah Beutler (07:26.672)
because God's done a work in our hearts and healed me.
Rob Chartrand (07:28.792)
Yeah. Amen. Well, we're going to we're going to hear that part of the story in a minute. But let me let me go back real quick. You started at the church you're in while you're in Bible college and before you were married, you started serving there.
Leah Beutler (07:43.62)
Yes.
Dallas Beutler (07:43.971)
Yeah, the minister that we began with, I was in Bible school and in 92, I came right out of grade 12 to Saskatoon and started taking classes, but joined a drama team and began doing evangelistic dramas in prisons and churches and stuff. And two years later, I did my year of internship, took it off of school and just did internship. And Leah came to school at that point and
she began volunteering at these evangelistic services that I was doing my internship with, which then turned into the Rock Church a year or so later when we registered as a church and nonprofit. so in 96, the church kind of got registered and in 96 our marriage got registered. so we were serving together before that and have been a part of the Rock Church since its inception as part of the plant team.
Rob Chartrand (08:37.344)
Wow, so your lives together have aligned in ministry and in marriage, similar timeline all the way across the board. Yeah.
Dallas Beutler (08:47.734)
all the way. We were serving together before we were dating and we were pastoring a church together before we were married.
Rob Chartrand (08:54.414)
Wow. Well, Dallas, I'm learning things about you. I didn't know before. First of all, heard SRC. So that dated you. then, yeah, we had an SRC when I was in school. And then 4H. So you're from an agricultural background.
Dallas Beutler (09:00.878)
Does anybody know what that is and does anybody care?
Dallas Beutler (09:13.346)
Yeah, grew up in a small rural community in the town of Whitewood, Saskatchewan and grateful for that place a lot and try to go home as often as we can. But I grew up on the farm. I had the best of both worlds, kind of living a mile and a half out of town on a paved road. was the kid that got picked up five minutes before school bus before school started on the school bus and dropped off five minutes after school. Didn't have that hour drive during route through gravel road. So had all the
privileges of easy access to what was going on in town and to church, but loved working with cattle and did a whole bunch of cattle shows and traveling around and getting to be a part of that scene.
Rob Chartrand (09:44.981)
yeah.
Rob Chartrand (09:54.284)
Okay, yeah, my wife, Karen, rode the school bus. She's a farmer's girl and farmer's daughter and she plays the piano, Leah, and she leads worship as well. So were you both on staff since the beginning at the church or how did that transition to where you are now? Is that a long story or is that something that happened recently?
Leah Beutler (10:06.576)
Hello pianist, worship leader, love it, pastor's wife.
Dallas Beutler (10:24.974)
I, in my year of internship is when I officially went on staff in the ministry. And then when the church started was in staff and while I was in school was part-time staff through getting married and things like that. So I've been on staff since the inception of the church. Leah's never officially been on staff or in a paid staff role. She gets looked at as such and treated as such. And she has a kind of a full volunteer slate.
that she does, but she's been a, she was a massage therapist for over a decade and she served at, she served at the Christian school. Our kids went to for a period of time as a community, community development officer. And then, but she's had a, had a really, I'll let her speak to this, but she had a really significant health impact that, kind of changed our lives for forever and has informed a lot of the way that we serve and do life.
Rob Chartrand (11:18.296)
So in your early years in the church, when did you transition to become the lead pastor of the church?
Dallas Beutler (11:25.038)
I became, there was a short period of time that our founding pastor had another ministry priority for a point of three years. So in 2000 to 2003, I was limping along as a lead pastor without much confidence. 2010 is when our pastor had resigned and then moved on from the church. And that's when the elders put me in place as interim pastor for a period of six months, just to get settled. then
then became the lead pastor. so since the fall of 2010 have been the lead pastor.
Rob Chartrand (11:59.662)
And the first lead pastor was really, he was an evangelist. Like that's more of his office rather than a shepherd teacher.
Dallas Beutler (12:07.33)
Yeah, and he played all the roles that needed to play. And but that's one of the reasons there's so much so much built into the DNA from what he he and his wife brought to that. And the outreach outreach strength is definitely one of them. There's a huge passion and and desire to reach people. And you just can't get away from that when it's built on that foundation.
Rob Chartrand (12:17.198)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (12:27.714)
Yeah. Well, let's talk about that whole transition season of 2010 to 2011 because I mean, obviously you and I have talked before about this, but ministry hasn't always been easy for you guys. And you went through a challenging season that's affected you and your church. So can you share a little bit about what happened?
Dallas Beutler (12:51.598)
Yeah, the Leah will jump in back and forth with me, but want to start by just giving a shout out to our children, Brooklyn and Boston and our parents and families and church and friends, because we are not standing here because, or sitting here getting to talk with you in this place because we're rock stars and did anything great, but we had a amazing amount of support and love and grace. Uh, in, in 2010, we basically were
burnt out and burning out. I was coming to the end of myself. can speak to her part in regards to what it was like to live with me, but short tempered, not a lot of grace, still cheering, recognizing what I was trying to do, what we were called to, but just coming so to the end of my mental and emotional health, which then obviously is a direct impact on your spiritual health. She reached out to focus on the family.
pastor counseling in the summer of 2010 as we felt it begin to crumble. They said, your husband's drowning. You need to get him to one of our retreat centers. And so we got booked into a month later to September. And so we'll be eternally grateful to focus on the family, particularly Jerry and Renee and, and, uh, Carruth Creek, South of Calgary that invested into us, but not just for that week, but for time ongoing after that.
Rob Chartrand (14:00.494)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (14:17.55)
I thought I was going to that one week to get fixed and patched up. And I realized I was just getting diagnosed and how messy and broken I really was. And, and so we began a journey at that point. They said we needed a sabbatical. I thought that was just for lazy pastors. I was so judgmental of other people. said, you, tell that to everybody. You must get paid more money if people go on sabbatical. And they said, no, we don't actually only tell five or 10%. I, that really jarred me.
Rob Chartrand (14:23.747)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (14:44.91)
So, we went away and began to read about it. They also introduced us to emotionally healthy spirituality and emotionally healthy church. We began to read it and it felt like they were writing the biography of our lives. God used that and a crisis sabbatical to do a gigantic reset because there was so much work and healing to do. It put us in a different direction and got our heads screwed back on in a way that we could begin to pursue healing.
Rob Chartrand (15:14.702)
Wow, thank you for sharing that. Leah, what were you experiencing through that season?
Leah Beutler (15:21.176)
Yeah, it had been a really long 16 years of ministry before that. had given ourselves fully to the ministry and thought that I had different expectations for it. I came from large church background and it was very different to do all of the jobs when you plant a church. And we were exhausted and we had not put in very good
very good patterns or rhythms for our lives. We didn't have healthy boundaries. And we just found ourselves at the end. And I mean that like in every way, like we were just crying all the time. We were, we had this weird electric toque on our heads where we stopped being able to make decisions and it would feel like it was just.
pinpricks all over our head, both of us. Like we were both burning out at the same time. It was very, very strange. But a counselor came along, a Briarcrest graduate, Bruce Pringle. He came and he walked with us for a long, long season, hours and hours of counseling. And I poured out my heart, my very resentful, very angry heart, he said to me at one point, Leah.
Rob Chartrand (16:28.824)
Hmm. Hmm.
Leah Beutler (16:47.088)
you are very angry. And I didn't even know what that meant because I was so emotionally shut down that I had stuffed it very deep. So my body was giving out, my mind was giving out, couldn't make decisions, ended up going off of work in 2011 after working with a doctor. Couldn't sleep, couldn't, I wasn't eating, I was...
losing weight. It was all across the board. we just didn't, nothing worked for our spirituality anymore. It was that dark night of the soul thing. I didn't know who God was. He wasn't the God that I thought he was. He was more silent. I couldn't hear what he was saying, except for that I had
all this emotion that was just, I could not hold it in anymore. I was leaking emotion all over the place. I was so angry at the people in the church. didn't, I had just no love for anybody anymore and I wanted to hide. I remember wanting to hide under my desk when I was at work. So it was a very desperate time, very upside down time for both of us.
Rob Chartrand (17:51.822)
Hmm.
Leah Beutler (18:13.7)
but we were still pastoring. But as one leader in our network of churches that we're a part of now, he said to us, well, you guys are bleeding all over the place. And we thought, well, I thought we were hiding it a little better than that, but obviously we're not. so we kind of went into, as Bruce Pringle would say, we went into this spiritual emotional physiotherapy.
and we ended up getting a totally miraculous sabbatical, which we didn't even believe in sabbatical. We didn't believe in sabbatical or Sabbath or rest or burnout. Like, you know, we had that really super spiritual mindset that if you're on fire for Jesus, you can't burn out kind of thing. It was just the worst theology ever. So we had to change everything.
Like we had to change from the ground up and really come to Jesus in repentance and start doing some serious work in our own hearts and forgive. We had to do a lot of forgiveness. And I'm not just talking about forgiveness in the church. We had to forgive each other. We had to forgive each other a lot.
Rob Chartrand (19:25.378)
Hmm. Yeah.
Dallas Beutler (19:34.222)
Yeah, it's a Leah reference, kind of the dark night as a soul or the wall. Like we grew up in Christian homes. We were in youth groups. We're doing the youth rallies growing up with kids of the eighties, nineties, two thousands, the whole wanting to live pure, wanting to, wanting to learn to be generous, young, wanting to serve. was like, we had done all this stuff the way we were supposed to in our teenage years into our twenties, saved ourselves for when we were married. And then all of a sudden it wasn't working. We had people mad at us. We were mad at each other.
was there was on every level of the emotional, physical intimacy, spiritual intimacy, were struggling. And that wasn't the deal. The deal was you do it right, you get it right. And it was a real wake up call and God had to purge out of us the kind of the pride and arrogance that comes from trying to do things right and get a level of getting it right to realize that that's not the way it works with God. don't get to earn it with him on.
Leah Beutler (20:21.451)
That's it.
Dallas Beutler (20:29.248)
any level, especially if you've done it right. It's out of grace, it's out of love, it's out of relationship. And so it was very difficult. And today we sit here thankful that God did that because he used it to purge out pride and arrogance. would have become the most toxic leaders possible because all you would have to do is do it like we did and we'll teach you the right way. And then you'll have a great life with God, which today wants to make me hurl.
Leah Beutler (20:41.028)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (20:55.406)
Wow. you've got, okay. I was gonna say you've got these internal realities that you're wrestling with, false conceptions about what ministry is supposed to be like, false concept, and then you've got this external pressure of a church that's like inner city, like ongoing demand, like it never stops. It's relentless human struggle that you're bombarded with and faced with. Internally, what were some of the,
Leah Beutler (20:55.596)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we were pretty dangerous.
Rob Chartrand (21:25.478)
you know, what the misconceptions or the lies or even the the false idols in your life that got you to that point.
Leah Beutler (21:37.209)
Yeah, my goodness. His kindness leads us to repentance, right? And it was, I had so many false beliefs about what Dallas just described about who I was. you know, I just, thought that you kind of make a deal with God and you give him your life and then he blesses you.
Rob Chartrand (21:42.978)
Mm-hmm.
Leah Beutler (22:04.44)
even though I wouldn't have said that out loud, that's how I was living. And if you pray, he answers and he does it the way that is expected, kind of. And also I just had so much false belief about how to manage or acknowledge my emotion. And so when I was getting...
offended by people in the church and when I was exhausted in moments of I don't know how to say no and there is no such thing as no, I just have to say yes to it all. It just built up and I didn't know how to do anger or fear or sadness in any way. So I thought that if I just, you know, rejoice and again I say rejoice, then I
I would be okay, but it did not work and I needed to go just, I mean, the Psalms are full of all of the writings of going to God with those emotions, but for some reason I had blocked all of that out and I didn't know how to lament. So I just stayed in the falseness of putting a smile on my face and sitting in the front row and making it look
Rob Chartrand (23:20.824)
Hmm.
Leah Beutler (23:29.924)
good and it was not good. was a very whitewashed tomb at that point. So I was really, really convicted that I had lost my first love, that Jesus wasn't that to me anymore. I had lost who I loved and why I was there.
Rob Chartrand (23:36.61)
Hmm. Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (23:57.344)
Yeah, for me, thanks, Leah, for sharing that. One of the pieces for me that's come out in this journey, I grew up in a Pentecostal church and so grateful for that. Went to a Pentecostal school. We would believe in the gifts and move of the Spirit. But this journey has spoke a lot about discipleship and the journey of becoming like Christ. I definitely had the mindset that discipleship
Rob Chartrand (24:00.984)
Yeah.
Dallas Beutler (24:26.018)
happened during a worship service, happened during the preaching, happened during the altar call, happened, you did devotions so that the word of God would change you in that moment, which we believe it can, but it's kind of like, as long as you make yourself available, you're kind of like this, somebody without a choice in it, and it just zaps you all the time, and you're getting changed by being defibrillated.
Rob Chartrand (24:28.45)
Right. Yeah.
Dallas Beutler (24:51.606)
all the while. just one more shock that changes you. One more shock that changes you. And the peace that's come to become a part of that believing that God still moves in those moments is that He also moves in process. And that that starts with me, that starts with Leah first as leaders that the discipleship journey that we need to go on requires work, requires constant and fresh surrender, requires ongoing transformation and that we are willing participants in it and that there's things we
rely on for miracles in the moment, but we need that miracle in the process to go ahead and for God to continually humble us and guide us and direct us. So the journey of ongoing discipleship as kind of this main weighing factor in the life of us as ministers, as well as the purpose of the church has been a game changer for me.
Rob Chartrand (25:42.574)
Wow. Is it part of it? So my early journey in my faith was Pentecostal. and beautiful and wonderful to see the expressions of the gifts, the power of the Holy Spirit. But there was almost an assumption in my early spirituality that if something's not spontaneous or instantaneous, it's not really of God. like it's those miraculous instant moments that are on a higher level rather than the slow and steady Eddie, right?
Leah Beutler (25:44.432)
Mm-hmm.
Leah Beutler (26:05.124)
Hmm.
Leah Beutler (26:11.641)
Yes.
Rob Chartrand (26:12.63)
and living in the suffering and living in the lament and the reality of, you know, putting your boots, your pants on one leg at a time every morning and going to work that kind of stuff, right? That's the mundane, but the real spiritual is, is up here and that can lead you down a false path. if, if, if you assume that that's normative.
Leah Beutler (26:16.976)
This is.
Dallas Beutler (26:22.35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Leah Beutler (26:24.879)
Yeah.
Dallas Beutler (26:30.806)
Yeah. It's, it's gotta be, gotta be in the, the day to day that like the best I can describe it is homework. Nobody really loves homework except super keeners. But the idea that we would do homework, not just small group homework of read the passage and write out the answers in the booklet, but we actually take time to pause with Jesus. We ask people for input in our lives. We seek out
Leah Beutler (26:31.608)
Yes, exactly.
Dallas Beutler (26:59.958)
wise counsel, we've sought numerous Christian counselors and therapists to go after and do the work with people that you trust to go after the deeper issues. The outward stuff of going to church and reading your Bible and giving and serving and getting baptized, that's all important, but too often I feel like we've tried to learn how to do the outward stuff, but we're doing it from a...
interior that hasn't caught up or doesn't have the strength that we're forcing it on the outside without it flowing from the natural place of transformation and love for Jesus on the inside. And so our journey of the last 10 or 12 years has been interior work so that the exterior can flow from what's inside rather than trying to force the outside so that we look like something while being in a deficit position in our spirit.
Rob Chartrand (27:32.291)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (27:52.302)
Yeah, well said. So the Emotionally Healthy Church resources, I mean, they've played a big role in your lives and in your congregation. How did you get, you got connected to them at Carruth Creek? Is that where it started?
Leah Beutler (27:52.912)
and
Leah Beutler (28:07.15)
Yes. The counselors gave us that book and told us, guys are spiritually mature, but you're emotionally immature. And we did not really even know what that meant, but we knew it wasn't good. And so we started reading the book and it just walked us through the things we needed to. It started putting language to where we were at and we worked with it.
worked through it during our sabbatical, brought it back to the church, worked with our leadership, and it started to provide something tangible for us to walk through ourselves and take our church through because we knew that we could not keep doing ministry the way that we had been doing it before. And we needed some kind of...
Rob Chartrand (28:58.254)
Hmm.
Leah Beutler (29:02.444)
a handle to grip onto to walk people through that process so that we didn't go backwards into the bad habits that we had had before, as well as start to get beneath the surface like Dallas was saying and do this slow down spirituality where we really care about what's going on inside of ourselves so that Holy Spirit can come in and do the work and
not be afraid of when things get difficult or hard, but know that he is using it for a purpose and that there's discipleship in it. And so it's been our core area for our discipleship pathway at the church since then. And so we continue to run it. We've maybe done it 15 times. And it is a course that
has two parts to it now, the emotionally healthy relationships and then the emotionally healthy spirituality. So it both goes after the greatest commandment of loving the Lord your God and loving others as well as loving yourselves, which we did not have a concept for loving ourselves. it's been a real beautiful journey and it has provided a...
cornerstone, it's part of our foundations at the Rock Church and it's also been what has drawn people to the Rock Church because people want real and they want to know how to get to the heart of things and not just do this surface spirituality and you can't just make up real and be a
a good or nice Christian without dealing with that stuff that's sitting inside of you, especially the patterns that are so deeply ingrained from generations and things that we're not even aware of, you know, like our shadow sides that are so deeply in us that we need a lot of going after it. So it's dramatically changed us and the church.
Dallas Beutler (31:22.958)
Emotionally healthy discipleship, use a phrase, Peter and Jerry Scazzero, Jesus may be in your heart, but grandpa's in your bones. And the most influential, powerful impact in our lives comes from our family of origin. And I know there's difficult situations where kids grew up not knowing their families or adopted or moved between families, but even that has a impact on people's lives. And so if we don't go after the work of recognizing the things from our
our family of origin and the patterns that have been established and line those up to the things of God and recognize that our family, our culture, our background or nationality, that doesn't get to trump what it means to live in the new family of God. And so where scripture and his spirit are saying that that isn't the way people in the family of Jesus live, then we have to repent of that, see a change in that and begin to live according to Jesus as the head of our home, not,
past influence and impact from our family of origin.
Rob Chartrand (32:25.74)
Yeah, and for our listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the material, Pete Cicero, is it in New York that he pastors? Yeah. Yeah.
Dallas Beutler (32:32.534)
Yeah, and it's just in a transition to new leadership as Pete and Jerry begin to retire and move out of that. But New York is still the base.
Rob Chartrand (32:41.644)
Yeah, so there's, mean, lots of books have been written by them. There's curriculum materials, all of that, that's available that, I mean, anybody could access even on Amazon or even on their, they have a website as well. We could put that in the show notes.
Dallas Beutler (32:55.01)
Yeah, emotionallyhealthy.org, emotionallyhealthy.org.
Rob Chartrand (32:57.024)
Okay. Yeah, that's great. So that's been significant for your church and it's interesting that you're using this framework in your church because you're in a unique situation in where you're doing ministry like inner city in Saskatoon, a prairie city, which has all sorts of challenges that you're you're you're experienced in your community and your emphasis is on on the next gen as well. So can you
Can you talk to us a little bit about the unique things that the Rock Church is doing in your community and in the next generation?
Dallas Beutler (33:36.77)
Yeah, we love our church, our church located in the inner city, but really our Sunday congregation, those who would call the Rock Church home, they come from all over the city. So you could basically take our congregation, put it anywhere in the city on a Sunday and that would feel at home. We have people from the inner city, but we have people from outside the city as well in every suburban area. And a lot of people I believe come because of what Leah just described as the
kind of tone. They love being around messy broken pastors who apparently articulated or willing to express their brokenness. We have partnerships and friends in so many of the churches around the city. We're grateful to be just a little part of what's going on in Saskatoon. the Sunday kind of looks the same and that core and heart of the church. But in regards to what we do during the week, we have a whole outreach
outreach angle to it where we're going after being a blessing to our families and their children and youth. Used to be a time you'd call them at-risk youth, but today with the power of cell phones and technology, it's almost like everybody's at risk. Doesn't matter which school you go to or what part of the city, but there are so many of the kids we work with are from less fortunate homes, less privileged backgrounds and really close to poverty.
and brokenness. So we run a children's program called Bibleville for ages six to 10 on Wednesdays. Preteen is called Shift on Thursdays. C23 is our youth program, age 14 to 18. And we do that as a weekly program. We pick them up in vans and buses. If anybody has a used bus for sale, that's good and got life. There's none available in Canada right now. So there's a little shout out. I'm looking for a bus. And so thanks. We pick them up.
Rob Chartrand (35:26.978)
Let's do it.
Dallas Beutler (35:31.148)
We bring them to church, feed them. They have fun and games with their friends and make a safe environment for that to happen. They're surrounded with loving adults and young adults. We have a ton of young adults involved which we're grateful for just to help bolster and encourage what parents want to see going on in their lives. And we teach them and tell them that Jesus loves them and give them opportunity to be discipled. And that goes throughout the year. And then in the summer we have a week of camp for each age group.
down by Lake Diefenbaker and grateful for the people at Elbow Lutheran Bible Camp who let us use their facilities for most of the month of July to be able to make that happen and trust us with their property. And then I'll let Leah talk about whatever she wants to add to that, our family church aspect that is a huge part in the last year and a half that we're going after to try to be a support to the whole family structure.
Rob Chartrand (36:25.614)
Yeah, well, just real quick, mean, that's amazing you guys do your own camp, but it makes sense because I'm sure the demographic and the kids that you're working with are unique and they might not fit in a normal camp environment. So you have to kind of structure at your own pace. Is that correct?
Leah Beutler (36:35.662)
Thank
Leah Beutler (36:41.87)
Yeah, we need to run our own camps because we need the relationships that are built during the year. And there's just, it's too difficult to build trust that quickly. Trust is at a very minimum with the kids and youth that we work with. And they've got a lot of instability in their lives. We were just at our family church, Valentine's Family Church last night where
All these families were there and we get to be around tables and eating together and we got to be with this sweet little family that mom just is just checked herself into the hospital, not doing well, came out of addictions, relapsed at Christmas. And these four little ones are just staying with a friend. And this is their life again.
This is round, I don't know how many times and they're all under the age of 10. And so there's so much instability that you have to keep it going all through the year so that they understand who we are to them and where we are even so that they can find us again. Very, very transient families that have to move at different times or relocate.
or go into care, whatever is happening at the time. So there's just a ton of need for that camp and there's a ton of need for this family church because come in on a Sunday morning and all of the things that we don't even think of that are traditional ways of doing worship, those things don't work for families that are in crisis a lot of the time and they come in and they can...
Rob Chartrand (38:10.862)
Hmm.
Leah Beutler (38:37.54)
They can just be who they are. They get a really good meal together. And what I love to watch is seeing these families play together. We always say that play is the way to hearts and to attaching to one another. And they get to play together. And so often their lives are hard and survival and they just get to be.
Rob Chartrand (38:52.376)
Hmm. Hmm.
Leah Beutler (39:03.46)
family and kids and even, you know, the moms and the grandmas and the aunties and the uncles are coming extended families to these nights. And they will be the ones at the craft table making the craft, the moms, the grandmas, and the kids get to do it right alongside of them. So it's nothing fancy, but it is really, really beautiful to see the attachments made between themselves and between us. And they get to meet.
Jesus and know that he really cares for them even in the hopeless moments of their lives. So we're super passionate for that. So it's become like a whole other church plant that we didn't even see coming. It's their own church and it's happening once a month. So very cool.
Rob Chartrand (39:33.326)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (39:46.179)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (39:54.392)
I want to ask you a question and before I ask it, want to frame it. I know Dallas I shared with you, but my father's First Nations and my mother is Caucasian and I grew up in a home where there was addiction, there was sometimes abuse, very difficult home situation. Parents were together, parents split up, a very broken home situation. The question I want to ask you is, is there a
You talked before about there not being a lot of trust in the church. What's at the source of that when you say that when there was little trust and you need to earn that trust?
Dallas Beutler (40:35.95)
The realities of what's gone on in our world and from 60s scoop in residential schools and where that played out in so many lives to just racism in our world and prejudice and that can go in every, in each direction, plus just the human condition of forget ethnicity and background of people, but just this angst towards each other in a broken world.
that there's this lack of trust, this crumbling foundation that building on, but the church with residential schools and the way that the church is just painted with one brush, it doesn't matter your denomination, it doesn't matter the name of your church, it's just the church was a part of that. we recognize that that's the...
basis that we're starting from in a lot of people's and that the stories and the hurt has gone on through generations. And what we can do is be present, be inviting, be loving, give an accurate and current picture of Jesus and let them get a fresh taste of who Jesus is and his desire to love on and bring hope into their lives. Our mission is bringing hope to life and it's kind of that double enchantment of we want to
bring hope alive again, that people would have a reason to live, but we also want to bring hope to people's lives. And we recognize that comes through Jesus. we, the fact that families of all sorts of backgrounds and whether they're in crisis or whether they're working poor, and now we have kids who are adults and sending their own kids to the program that at whatever stage they're at, that we have a responsibility and a privilege to
to give them Jesus in a way that is the way that it was originally intended. That it's a person to save us, to love us, but it also brings us into His family and that the family is a safe place. And really part of the benefit of being a Christian is to have brothers and sisters and we want to try to grow and be a healthy place to be that family.
Rob Chartrand (42:35.47)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (42:56.142)
That's wonderful. I appreciate the work you guys are doing. I wonder if our listeners, it might be beneficial to let them know that in Prairie cities, the inner city has a high First Nations population, Indigenous peoples population. I mean, that's just the reality of Prairie City. So where you are, I mean, that's a large percentage of the people that you're ministering to and you're serving. Is that correct?
Dallas Beutler (43:21.166)
Yeah, that's a large percentage of our outreach and we're grateful for that. not whether indigenous or not Saskatoon itself has gone, like a lot of cities in Canada has a drug epidemic right now. And in the last two years, the count that they do at one point in time went from 5, 499 people or 500 people two years ago to it being 1,499 this past.
Rob Chartrand (43:47.917)
Wow.
Dallas Beutler (43:48.92)
past winter when they counted it. it's an epidemic that just adds to the complexity of trying to minister.
Rob Chartrand (43:56.642)
Yeah.
Leah Beutler (43:57.073)
And you add our climate, right? Like right now, try living on the streets in minus 40. It's impossible. So just jumping from place to place wherever you can find a warm spot is where a lot of the people are living. It's really, really difficult.
Rob Chartrand (44:03.694)
That's right.
Rob Chartrand (44:19.916)
I'm sure the reality of a lot of the kids and youth who come through your program is that oftentimes when they graduate out of high school or when they graduate out of that stage of life, they move out of that stage of life, they inevitably move on from church as well because so much of your emphasis has been at that specific bandwidth, right? And so it's a challenge to keep them in the church after that. part of that...
Is that part of the motivation behind you saying, well, let's create a family kind of environment for the church?
Leah Beutler (44:51.556)
Yeah, we've been wanting for so many years to try and find a way to integrate the family because if you can have the home change, then so many other things can change, right? But it was, we tried so many things to try and engage families and parents and caregivers and would have, you know, big banquets and stuff and try to.
Dallas Beutler (44:51.896)
Yeah, for sure.
Leah Beutler (45:18.82)
bring them in to hear their kids sing or stuff like that, many, many things. But Family Church has been the most successful to get them in and playing together and wanting to be together. yes, this is, I think that what we have maybe started to learn is that it's not enough just to say, hey, we have church on Sundays, come on out. We have had families that have come, but
for Family Church, we're starting to see the connections where there are parents that were in program when they were little and they send their children and then aunts and uncles that are sending their nieces and nephews. And so we're getting generational impact of having the whole family that have come for, know, they've sent the next generation into the programs and now they're coming with their kids to Family Church.
Rob Chartrand (46:07.235)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (46:18.454)
One of the things about family church is that it happens around round tables and we have congregation members from Sunday that are volunteering to be table hosts. So a family will host one or two other families around that table. And while sometimes it changes from month to month, there is a consistency among some relationships that now they're always sitting together every month. And so, so many people in our church have wondered over the years, how do we actually help? How do we actually connect? It's like,
Rob Chartrand (46:39.554)
Okay.
Dallas Beutler (46:47.01)
We live totally different lives and yet we want to be a blessing and we want to be an encouragement. And this eating together, which scripture so highly talks about and recommends in the power of breaking bread together, totally is breaking down barriers. People are looking forward to seeing each other. It's giving a platform where people can connect and have meaningful conversation and eat. They can hear about Jesus together. There's room for some conversation and prayer in the midst.
of playing and having some joy to try to lighten the load. So that's been one of the strengths is having a whole church come along and support. isn't the initiative of just a few people. If we have 50 or 60 people in the building being served that night, that means there's probably 40 or 50 people there serving them through driving, through cooking, through running the games, through sitting at the tables. It's intensive, but it's great because it's a whole body activity.
Rob Chartrand (47:42.338)
I have to imagine that it takes the right kind of person to come and serve in this environment because it's formal, it's informal, family schedules are all different, cultural schedules are all different. There's just a whole lot going on and you have to be able to roll with it and improvise.
Dallas Beutler (48:04.042)
Yeah, you seem like the right kind of person. We'll see you in March.
Leah Beutler (48:06.8)
Yes, you have to roll with it. And we love, we've come to love rolling with it. You know, it's just a very beautiful thing to see how those relationships are built and how when you get to talk to somebody just as you're doing a silly game with them.
It really changes the nature of whether they're going to listen to what you have to say about Jesus. yeah, it's the way, play is the way.
Dallas Beutler (48:43.15)
And the good news is that people can pass. can engage to it to their level of comfort. And so it's not a forced thing. So you got people there fully engaging, some people hanging back, but it's been a huge blessing to watch. it is a huge part of people's discipleship. And it goes back to that statement you can often hear. I went to serve and give to bless somebody, but I was the one getting most blessed or I was the person most changed. That this forces people to
Rob Chartrand (49:09.464)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (49:12.546)
Those points where I got nothing to do but pray or to take that prayer request home. I can't fix their situation. This was years in the making. It's so messy. I could give all my money and not fix it for the next week kind of idea. Like it just forces a level of, can bring what I can bring. I got to trust Jesus. I got to pray. I got to see it in the long-term, not the short-term. it forces, it's one of those things of, my goodness, there's a chance that this isn't going to work out the way that I...
Rob Chartrand (49:35.032)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (49:41.538)
want because I can't fix it in a second. How will it play out over time?
Rob Chartrand (49:46.382)
So we've had other guests on Church in the North who co-lead with their spouses. So I'd like to talk about that because you both are lead pastors of the church. How has that evolved and what does that look like in your situation? Leah, can you speak to that?
Leah Beutler (50:05.892)
Yeah, it has been an interesting journey because as we said, we did not start out kind of on staff and I had my own full time position. But the main shift that happened when our marriage was healed and strengthened was Dallas made room for me.
He made room for me in my giftings. We don't have the same giftings, of course, and we bring different things to the church. But when they are put together, we really are better together. so in the, like the tangibles of what that looks like is I go to staff meetings, I get to have meetings with people, I do a lot of mentoring with the staff.
and with other people in the church. I have roles for leading discipleship and worship, but I also, Dallas and I really pray together and vision together where we're going with the church. And when people see us, are leading out of our marriage. We are leading out of the fruit of what God has done in us because we are a
sign and a wonder of Christ in the church. And so we want to live holistically that way and go after what it looks like to really love. And then that kind of flows out of, don't have to do the same things as Dallas does. He does most of the preaching. only speak a few times. he does a lot of the logistical
planning and putting together themes for the year and staff responsibilities and plans. But the way that we go after that is we pray about those staff plans together and we pray for the issues that are going on or I step into conversations or meetings where it needs to be had. So I...
Leah Beutler (52:23.118)
I think we're just learning about it as we go. We don't really have an exact model of this is how we should do it, but it feels like Jesus has just walked us into this place and we really love doing it this way. And it's not for everyone. It is our own personal call. I don't think that every pastor's wife needs to step in in this way or that they should have the same kinds of
responsibilities. It's just, it's my call to what we're doing.
Dallas Beutler (52:59.49)
I was going to say part of the journey of figuring out the marriage in the light of ministry was for my whole life. And particularly in Bible school where there's discussions about priorities and is ministry first or is marriage first? Is the call first? And in a short period of time, I definitely had the picture, the mental picture of ministry versus marriage as in a boxing match that
that they were in constant competition to each other, that I was called to be a husband, but I'm also called to ministry and I don't want to let God down and this is for the kingdom and eternities in the grip. So obviously ministry is more important. And then you go home and you see your wife distressed or your kids not getting what they need from you. And then you recognize I might be that guy that is losing his family while doing the work.
Rob Chartrand (53:30.894)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (53:54.284)
the work of God and this whole tension was taking place and it went on until that 2010, 2011 time. Cause I was finding myself in when I was in doing ministry and being committed there, I found myself wanting to be at home. And then when I'm at home trying to love on my wife and family, I'm feeling this pull that I should be working and doing ministry. Our counselor gave me the picture of a three tier water fountain, a beautiful stone water fountain and,
Rob Chartrand (54:21.24)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (54:22.082)
That's been the picture that I've held on since then is that centerpiece that flows at the top, that's our relationship with Jesus. And then it flows into our most immediate surroundings, our marriage, our family, our immediate friends. And that's where our ministry begins. And then when that kind of tear fills up, it overflows into the larger, wider span of ministry and community around us. And that we have to minister out of our marriage and out of our life. Now, what that's not supposed to mean is that
marriage and family always get the priority over ministry, but it means that it's always kind of the overflow to our relationship with Jesus is filling up their first and serving and loving and what you want to bring to the larger world around you has to be able to happen within your own home for there to be anything to flow into the world around you. And then for priorities, it's that picture of Jesus on the throne and everything else surrendered at His, on our knees to Him because it's all spiritual from
the drive to the preach, to the shaking hands, to the changing diapers at home. It's all part of our call to loving Jesus. And so if we can live surrendered in that way and allow there to be rhythms and priorities, we can allow Him to direct our life. And it means that at sometimes there is a pulling away for one versus the other because of the intensity of the season or what's going on. But if we view it as rhythms all surrendered to Jesus, then marriage and family is
is actually intended to be a blessing to the greater congregation of the church and community, not in competition where they're pulling away from each other and destroying each other.
Rob Chartrand (55:50.894)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (55:56.077)
Yeah, that's a beautiful picture with those fountains, the three tiers. Leah, has you found in this season of life, you actually have more time to lean into the co-lead pastor role? I mean, your kids are older, obviously, and you were working before, but you're not working now, is that correct? In a second career? Yeah.
Leah Beutler (55:59.729)
you
Leah Beutler (56:16.816)
Yes, yes. So I was working as a massage therapist and then at a Christian school and then burnt out and went, I had to go off because of the health, the consequences of my life before that, all the stress and stuff. And so I have lots of migraines and that kind of thing to deal with, but I get
to do what I can when I can and my kids are grown up and they are out of the house so that this is our first year actually empty nesting. yes, yeah, that's right. yeah, yeah, we're getting ready for them all to come back this summer. So we'll be there again. But so it does give me more time to step into the things that I can step into and
Rob Chartrand (56:47.246)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (56:54.028)
Alright, woohoo, first year! It doesn't last long!
Leah Beutler (57:13.912)
I'm having to re-figure out what I'm called to now each season is very much like, okay, we call it the rule of life, that trellis that we work from to build what we are going to live like. And so it has to be redone like every few months because everything is changing so quickly for, especially for me and what I'm involved in and what God's calling me to.
to for that season. And we just love, like it's so freeing. is what the way that we live now, the way that we live out of that flowing fountain has just provided so much freedom in who we are and what we are called to. We don't have to live out of obligations. I was living out of so many obligations before of what people wanted me to be.
And so I feel like I've stepped into more of my true self and really embracing who God wants me to be now at this point with Dallas.
Rob Chartrand (58:24.344)
Yeah, it's wonderful. Eugene Peterson, you're probably familiar with, he talks a lot about ministry being a long obedience in the same direction. And so you guys have obviously course corrected in your marriage and your ministry to think about it for the long haul. I wondered if you could say something about that.
Leah Beutler (58:49.69)
We love that quote. That's a favorite. Go ahead, Delis.
Dallas Beutler (58:57.038)
Part of the long obedience in the same direction for us has been not quitting. there's lots of times where we were tempted to. And when I say lots, like multiple times a day in certain seasons, there was a book that somebody gave me. said, you don't have to quit. it's by Ray and Ann Ortland, I think is their name. And I read it at a point in the early 2000s.
Rob Chartrand (59:11.182)
yeah.
Dallas Beutler (59:27.052)
I can't even remember what it would have said, but it was one of the things that gave me some stamina and some courage to keep on going. There was a time around those same moments. It would have been the mid 2000s. I walked in to do Bible stories in prayer with our daughter Brooklyn, and she had one of those small Bibles that was all kid friendly and pictures on the outside, but inside it was all small text King James version on the inside. And she had pulled that off the shelf for some reason and just opened it up and pointed it to it.
I don't even know if she could read yet. And she said, read this. And it was from Ephesians six and talking about bond servants and masters and faithfulness and do it unto the Lord, all those kinds of things. And it was like at the exact moment that I needed it. And so the Holy Spirit has given us what we need at certain times when He gave us, given us grace to
Rob Chartrand (01:00:04.824)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:10.498)
Hmm. Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (01:00:21.226)
obey and stay the course and keep saying yes and allow him to guide and direct the paths rather than jumping too soon and part of our journey. We know it's not everybody's journey to stay long haul in the same place, but for us to be 30 years in the same place is a gift to us now. And it's a testimony to people around us. Apparently they tell us to see God's faithfulness over the seasons. So just
Continuing to say yes when he was inviting us to say yes and see the results of the long road has now been a new source of encouragement in and of itself.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:00.28)
Hmm. Beautiful.
Leah Beutler (01:01:00.688)
Yeah, yeah. So thankful. Dallas' middle name is Faithfulness, I always tell him. He has the gift of faithfulness. So I was probably the one at moments where I was more done than he was. But because of his natural ability to just see the greater good in things and want to walk that out.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:08.782)
Okay.
Leah Beutler (01:01:30.217)
It gave us a lot of stick with it-ness, I guess.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:36.386)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wondered if we could close with one of you giving a word or maybe both of you giving a word of encouragement to our ministry leaders who are listening in today.
Leah Beutler (01:01:50.768)
Hmm. Yeah.
Do you want to go first, Alice?
Dallas Beutler (01:01:56.046)
You go first.
Leah Beutler (01:01:58.193)
I guess just right out of what we said was don't give up and be honest with Jesus. If you are at a space where there is so much heaviness and you feel that heavy, heavy load of responsibility and you're just not sure why you started this in the first place, pour it out.
Jesus because he's so, so kind and so gentle. He's gentle and lowly of heart, just as Matthew says, that he doesn't want us to carry that heavy burden and his goal is to teach us how to carry that light burden. And when we find that way, when we go after it and go after the things in our hearts,
We find the light burden and then there is nothing better. We are living the dream because Jesus came and healed our hearts, because he was faithful to us. We are truly living what we hoped would happen and for a long time wasn't sure if that was ever going to be our reality. But here we are seeing the faithfulness of God.
Dallas Beutler (01:03:21.464)
Yeah. And what I would like to share with like, I know we're getting to talk today to a bunch of rock stars. They're all called by Jesus figuring out the ministry in this high calling. I don't know if people remember who John Turner is, but he was a liberal leader back when I was a kid and used to follow politics in elementary school and high school. And I heard him speak at something one time just, or it was a quote on maybe a political convention, but he,
Rob Chartrand (01:03:30.638)
Ha ha ha ha.
Dallas Beutler (01:03:51.182)
He was in his later years and said something that about politics being second only in commitment and sacrifice to clergy and that clergy was indeed the highest call that a person could get in the land. And so I want to encourage the people that are listening that they have a high call and it's a privilege to be kind of like being divided into teams on the playground and to play sports that you got picked by the team captain to serve in this capacity and play this special role.
and that you are the gift. What you do is important. Your messages will be important. Your ability to visit, to hold people in those high moments of life, everything from marriages and births to deaths and funerals. All you do is important, but it's not because of the exact words you're going to say or the exact things you're going to do, but it's because you carry the presence of Jesus and you are
the gift. And so you are valuable and Jesus wants to minister to you and disciple you and heal you. You don't have to get discouraged with the length of time things take. You don't have to be afraid about stepping into your own transformative journey. You don't have to be afraid about not having all the pieces figured out and that there's still brokenness or wrong or issues going on in your own life. God has called you and therefore to your people and to your organization, you are the gift.
What you do is important, but when you are transformed by the love of Jesus and you recognize that what He's doing in you is actually the power for the people around you, not just what you say or do outwardly, then what you do comes with power and authority in a different way than just trying to get it right on the outside. When you are the gift and you're being transformed to be like Jesus, all of a sudden it's got this vulnerability, it's got this authenticity and people
Rob Chartrand (01:05:37.389)
Hmm.
Dallas Beutler (01:05:46.178)
Don't just pick up from the actions that you're doing around you, but they're actually picking up from the spirit and the life of Jesus in you for your ministry around you. And so you guys are awesome in whatever part of this great country you're in or wherever you're listening to this from. He sees you, He knows you, His plans for you are good. And if you're in a difficult season, I am so sorry we've experienced that pain, but keep reaching to Him and reaching out to others because there's healing. You don't have to fight this and go this on your own.
Rob Chartrand (01:06:15.786)
Amen. Amen. Good word, brother. Thank you both. This has been rich. Thank you for your honesty, your transparency sharing the journey with us. Because I know for many ministry leaders, if they're not in that place, they've been in that place or they're going into that place where they're going to feel stretched like butter over too much bread.
Leah Beutler (01:06:35.6)
Hmm.
Leah Beutler (01:06:41.928)
Yes. Good picture. You're right.
Rob Chartrand (01:06:44.108)
as Bilbo Baggins would say from the, yeah. So anyway, it's been a blessing. I hope to get to Saskatoon sometime soon and visit your church and see what God is doing there. Thank you for your, yeah. All right, God bless you guys. go ahead, Dal.
Dallas Beutler (01:06:46.817)
Yeah
Dallas Beutler (01:06:58.902)
love to have you. Thanks for trusting us with our story and to share. been a privilege and honor to be with you and your guests, your listeners. So God bless you.
Leah Beutler (01:06:59.364)
would be. Yeah.
Leah Beutler (01:07:08.464)
Mm-hmm, yeah, so rich.
Rob Chartrand (01:07:11.31)
All right, God bless.