Rob Chartrand (00:01.677)
Well, hey, we are excited to have with us Ron Baker. He is the director of Canadian Small Church Ministry Center and Ron, I just want to say welcome to the Church in the North podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here with us.
Ron Baker (00:14.746)
So glad to be in the North. I wish, yeah, I haven't put any snow out lately so we're all right. We're good, I think. Yep.
Rob Chartrand (00:25.475)
That's good. Hey, Ron, let's get right into it. Why don't you tell everybody a little bit about your current role with the Canadian Small Church Ministry Center? What is it that you do there?
Ron Baker (00:34.698)
All right, I direct the Canadian Small Church Ministry Center. It is sponsored by Small Church Connections here in Canada out of Ontario. And the Canadian Small Church Ministry Center was actually an idea put together a few years ago at a forum. We had a group of people that were talking about small churches and what do we do about small churches. And at that forum, they had suggested that we put together a resource center
place where we can have information about small churches because it was not at that point and certainly even still we're working towards having a much larger presence of small churches so the Canadian Small Church Ministry Centre began there. One of our great focus or foci right now is the whole area of podcasts and podcasting of small churches both pastors those that deal with it.
denominationally. And so that takes up a bit of time and then just gathering resources we have a website CSCMC.CA I love acronyms small church ministry center dot CA CSCMC.CA. That's us. Oh yeah. Oh we do. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:52.985)
You must be in the Alliance denomination because we love our acronyms in the Alliance. Dexcom. Hey, you know, a lot of people might be a little bit confused when they think small church, immediately they jump to rural church, but I think that the definition is much bigger than that. I wonder if you could flesh that out a little bit for our listeners.
Ron Baker (02:11.982)
Well certainly, I personally have been part of a small church in a rural setting and so definitely there is that whole area. But to look much broader, small churches have many things in common. Even if they're in an urban center, you'll find that a small church has many things in common. So what we've done particularly with a small church ministry center is say, this is about churches wherever they are.
We generally arbitrarily I would say under 150 people would be a small church And so we work with what makes a small church. How does it work a lot of those things? So that if that flushes it out a little bit I could throw a few more bones in there if you like, but we'll leave it at that
Rob Chartrand (03:00.897)
Yeah, that's really helpful. And I'm sure like the size of the church itself really lends itself, the medium is the message in terms of it lends itself to how the community works together and lives together as the people of God. So like, as you said, you've spent some time pastoring a small church. You were 10 years with Kindersley Alliance Church and.
Ron Baker (03:12.82)
Yep.
Ron Baker (03:21.484)
I was.
Rob Chartrand (03:22.897)
I mean, you have a very interesting resume, and if anyone wants to look you up on LinkedIn, they can learn a little bit more about it. I mean, you've been a worship pastor, registrar for a seminary, a youth pastor, but what I really wanna get at today is the question is, why small church? Why is this work so very important to you?
Ron Baker (03:28.753)
Thank you.
Ron Baker (03:41.654)
Well, I think if I could start just personally, I grew up in, on a farm, I guess, for the first few years of my life. My dad farmed just outside of a place called Kindersley, Saskatchewan. He took over the homestead that his grandfather had farmed in 19, started in 1909. And the grandfather actually helped start a church.
Anytime you start a church, it's often small church, particularly in this case, it was a frontier small church with many people just coming from Ontario, particularly. And so small church has always been part of my bones. If you want to say that part of my parents bones. And so that sort of stuck with me. I think another reason why I love small church is that you grow up in a small church.
Sometimes I think you can parachute into a larger church and you parachute back out. A small church tends towards growing up relationship, intergenerational ministry. Many of the things that we're looking for in churches are already there in the small church and the model of the small church is amazing. Now, fun thing about small churches is the strengths are also often the weaknesses. And so...
All of the good things that are there can implode. But when a small church is really thriving, you've got nothing like it for reaching out into a community and for reaching into people's lives.
Rob Chartrand (05:17.645)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, in my pastoral career, I've, I've pastored as either, you know, different pastoral roles in churches of different sizes. The first one I was part of was a church of 130. And so I've been in churches of 130, and then 500 and then 1300 and then a big mega church of over 2000 and then back down to planting a small church again, and it is just a different type of
Ron Baker (05:25.57)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (05:46.517)
church and it's not better or it's worse. It's just got its unique characteristics about it and it plays a very unique role in the lives of believers. And I'm thinking about the recent study by Rick Heimstra, significant church, and I know you had him on your podcast and we'll invite our listeners to know a little bit more about that podcast near the end. But the study looks at the needs of Canadian evangelical small churches and you had a chance to look at this and you had a chance to
Ron Baker (06:04.323)
Yes.
Rob Chartrand (06:15.429)
to dive a little bit deeper with Rick. I found the title very interesting. And I think it's chosen with a purpose. They call it the significant church study. Tell me a little bit about why they would choose that title.
Ron Baker (06:24.334)
very much so.
Ron Baker (06:34.77)
As the group was putting this together, I believe 11 partners that were working together, they talked about, well, what do we call this? And the statement came up at one point. Well, the small church has for many years been considered to be the stepping point, the moving up point, not necessarily the significant point at which a person goes to ministry. And they said, but that's not true. Really, the small church is very significant.
Rob Chartrand (06:54.085)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ron Baker (07:02.906)
And if you look through history, you find small churches provide leadership across the board. Those who go out, those who have become a part of large organizations have been part of small churches. Also small, well, I could go on and on about small churches and how significant they are. The title just stuck that instead of saying you have to be a mega church to be significant, you don't have to.
Rob Chartrand (07:23.693)
Yeah, yeah.
Ron Baker (07:30.49)
a mega church to be significant. Instead of saying you have to be some other type of church, you can be a small church and be significant. It doesn't matter.
Rob Chartrand (07:38.381)
Yeah, I mean, I think there's such a move for people to get platformed as a result of this social media age and small churches don't tend to get platformed a whole lot. And so they tend to be seen as insignificant. But I think, you know, the American studies would say that over 50% of people who are followers of Jesus attend a small church. That's a large percentage of the population. And I think that number is probably...
Ron Baker (07:47.617)
Oh.
Rob Chartrand (08:04.573)
similar or higher here in Canada. I mean we don't have the same population densities.
Ron Baker (08:07.458)
Yeah, that would be the suggestion and as more and more research is done, you can look across Canada and just say, yeah, there are a lot of small churches. They form denominations, they form groups and networks. They're very significant across Canada.
Rob Chartrand (08:28.823)
Yeah. Yeah, so as you kind of probed Rick Heimstra a little bit more, what were some of the things that stood out to you about the study from the significant church study?
Ron Baker (08:32.909)
Mm-hmm.
Ron Baker (08:37.09)
Well, I think one of the first things that Rick and Lindsay Callaway, who also worked with the study, mentioned was that if you're going to work in a small church, particularly in a leadership role and as a pastor, you have to understand there's what's called the congregational covenant. There's something that's there that are the expectations, often unwritten, in fact, most often unwritten.
Rob Chartrand (08:44.429)
Yes.
Ron Baker (09:06.002)
If you can understand that, if you can know the people well and understand what the congregational covenant is for you and for ministry, you will do well in ministering in a local church. It also, understand the congregational covenant, also allows the people within the church, as you express that to each other, to begin to understand, hey, here's what we're about. Here's where we're going. Here's our vision.
congregational covenant is formed over time and as I was talking with Rick and Lindsay, they were anecdotally saying you know if you haven't got about seven years in a church you probably are still trying to figure out what the congregational covenant is. Maybe after seven you're starting to actually affect that covenant as that goes on. I think another thing that was interesting was that
Ron Baker (10:05.174)
The question of are small church pastors being trained? And boy, that was a question that constantly came up amongst the study and I'm finding is coming up amongst various denominations. They're asking the question at this point, are there training institutes, places that can put together an understanding of what a small church.
Rob Chartrand (10:11.577)
Right. Yeah.
Ron Baker (10:33.878)
really needs from a pastor. A lot of seminaries, Bible colleges, other places do a lot of good teaching exegesis. A lot of that is very important. But do they teach you a number of the other things, which I would call the experiential? I have changed plumbing in a church, or made sure at least that the drip wasn't there when I was finished. So it is something that
Rob Chartrand (10:55.48)
Yeah.
Ron Baker (11:02.866)
that goes beyond just management type of thing.
Rob Chartrand (11:08.553)
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I think it's true that across the board, generally speaking, Bible colleges and seminaries are heavy on biblical theological training, but not always on the practical. And I know at Briar Crest right now, our undergrad program is going under a strategic program review because we want to try and remedy some of those challenges. And it was interesting. The study was conducted during covid. I noticed.
Ron Baker (11:37.262)
Yeah. Yes.
Rob Chartrand (11:38.217)
Right. So in 2019 to 2022. And then and then one of the things they that the respondents said regarding this theological training is they weren't they didn't feel they were prepared for leading change, leading boards and managing church politics.
Ron Baker (11:57.798)
Yes, somebody teach us how to do church politics.
Rob Chartrand (12:01.137)
Right, yeah, like how do you navigate those polarities that you find in congregations? And, and, and I think COVID was just kind of a catalyzer of those things that may have been undercurrents in congregational life, and then suddenly just brought it to the surface and, and leaders were scrambling, how do I deal with it? And it's probably more in your face, in a small church environment, as opposed to say, in a mega church because you have degrees of separation. I mean, I've been the executive pastor of a mega church and you've
you feel like there are layers between you and the average congregant in many ways because you're working with leaders who are working with leaders, et cetera. But in a small church environment, you don't have that. As you say, working on the plumbing in somebody's home.
Ron Baker (12:47.714)
You know, communal leadership is what a small church is all about. And if you, if you don't understand that and can't work within a community and work together with others, uh, you're going to be in big, big trouble as far as, as pastoring a small church or leading in a, in a small church. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (12:51.853)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (13:05.013)
Yeah, yeah. Anything else from the study that you thought was worth mentioning?
Ron Baker (13:08.478)
Yeah, I think I found the interesting thought that networking is really vital for particularly, as we were talking about leadership in a small church. The solo pastor is oftentimes the norm, or even the multi-vocational pastor, the one who is doing many different things. They need, we need people to be talking to that we network with.
I live in a town now I'm retired. I was asked to stay with the ministerial and I have, I love it. But part of the reason why you stay with ministerial is both to discuss what's going on in the church, but also discuss what's going on in your own life. And if you haven't got that in a small church, a little different than just the congregation that you're dealing with, you're gonna find that you will not be encouraged.
as much as you could be in a network and networking with other churches. And so that's been fun. I've, I enjoy that. The other thing that Lindsay Calloway made a good point of in the podcast that I did with him, she says, part of the thing about small churches is that you get wound up in them and tightly wound so that you don't take time off. You don't
Rob Chartrand (14:13.422)
Yeah.
Ron Baker (14:35.17)
perhaps give the time to the family that you should. You don't set boundaries because it's all there. It seems to all be urgent, but you need to. You've got to take that time. You've got to set those boundaries.
Rob Chartrand (14:49.857)
Yeah, I mean, in particular in a rural context, I mean, you can't walk across the street without bumping into somebody from your church. And it's like being a doctor, you know, everybody's got an ailment that they'd love the doctor to talk to the doctor about. But you're more of a spiritual doctor and people will talk about things or talk about church issues. And it's hard to shut that off. I can imagine. Yeah, I think they said like 62% of respondents said that they had
Ron Baker (15:04.11)
Oh yes.
Rob Chartrand (15:17.869)
they worked less, they took less than one day a week off. So they're not even sabbathing and resting in that sense. You know, and I appreciate you saying that about the networking idea and that need for those additional relationships. And is it true that that's probably one of the reasons why your organization exists is to help create those networks?
Ron Baker (15:21.406)
Yes.
Ron Baker (15:40.718)
Yes, as a matter of fact, we have just begun a network dealing with Canadian small churches looking at trying to find ways to help. You can have too many networks in that you become over-involved or spread yourself too thin. But I tend to think that in small churches, we get so involved that we forget that we need a network.
And so there is a small church connections here in Canada has started a network where they'll also use that as a way to resource people to talk to them and that type of thing as well. Yeah, it's vital.
Rob Chartrand (16:22.509)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's a part of that is even a social trend that's happened in the last few decades is fewer and fewer adults actually have close relationships and friends. And I can imagine that's even magnified in a small church context in a small community, where there are so many things you're keeping close to your chest that you cannot talk about with people from your congregation. But you need those other people in your lives that you can unburden.
with and that's really hard to find unless you're intentional, unless you take the time to do it. Yeah.
Ron Baker (16:53.878)
Yes, very much so. Intentionality is, well, as with anything, if you aren't intentional, you aim for nothing and you get nothing. So, yeah, that's a problem.
Rob Chartrand (17:05.397)
Yeah, that's right. You know, what are some of the other unique challenges in your experience facing small churches today?
Ron Baker (17:15.466)
Well, I think there's always the challenge of resources. That means people, finances, small churches. Yeah, that's just something that's always there. Having to define ministry based on your base, which is not large. You can't do as many things.
Rob Chartrand (17:30.105)
Hmm.
Ron Baker (17:40.514)
So it's a great challenge, but at the same time, it also lets you say, well, then let's focus on one thing. Let's really do this well and reach into a community and, and not spread ourselves too thin, but say, here's what we're going to do in this particular community. I can point out to you, the church that is social programs oriented, that, that will be the food bank and all that sort of stuff. I can point out to you another church that is strong on theology.
and teaching and discipleship. I can point. So these small churches have said, well, we can't do everything, so let's just, let's do something and get that done. I think the other one that is arising more, we had a period, a time period where almost every church said we have to have a full-time pastor. Even small churches were pushing for that. We all wanted full-time pastors. But in the current economy,
Rob Chartrand (18:19.213)
Right, right.
Ron Baker (18:40.878)
Multi vocational, a lot of side hustles, gigs, whatever term you want to use is where pastors are at. There, you're going to find that they're going to have another job, which then leads to a new challenge for a lot of small churches, which is to say the loyalty that you could expect out of a pastor whom you're paying full time is no longer the only loyalty that pastor has. There are other.
that they're involved in. The family is there. There are so many things that the church finally has to back off and say, how much can we require? Or put it another way, how can we help the pastor to be the best person that he can be in amongst all these things that he's doing or she's doing? And I say that very purposely because I'm watching as well. There are a lot more women who are able to step up.
and say with great authority and wisdom, hey, I can be part of this. I should be part of this. We've held off in many small churches over the years, accepting in that, I guess I'll call it help, that we needed. And so now we're much more open to multi-vocational and many different and
people that are available to help. And I could go, there's a whole thing here I'd love to go into, but that's gonna take way too long.
Rob Chartrand (20:16.129)
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, there are so many factors that are contributing to that decreased revenues for churches so that they can support a pastor. I mean, if the congregation is aging, for example, then your congregation is older, they're on fixed income, they don't have the same ability to give. And I think that's something that's a lot of small churches are experiencing maybe in more rural context, that congregations are aging out.
Ron Baker (20:41.581)
Yes.
Rob Chartrand (20:45.425)
They're reaching the end of their life cycle and there's a need for rebirth. There's so many contributing factors there. I think that's a challenge. Is it a challenge in rural settings to do the co-vocational work as a pastor because opportunities to work might not be there as much? Or have you noticed that?
Ron Baker (21:05.638)
It seems the opportunities are there, particularly as a pastor comes in and is willing to work within a community. Some of them find that this is the best way to get into a community is to say, I come as a co-vocational, multi-vocational person. Well, I can think of the example literally across the street from me, a pastor who came in.
loves working with cars, has worked in a metal scrapyard previously, and therefore is accepted readily into that job situation, but also accepted readily as a person who isn't just the pastor in town. But yeah, he knows how to fix cars. He knows how to deal with scrap. And yeah, it's a very helpful thing.
Rob Chartrand (22:02.261)
right? I, you know, in a former life, I was able to work with a number of church planters who were starting in a small church context, they were they basically had a congregation of 15 or 20 people. And so they had to be convocational in order to do it. But there was always this mindset with a number of them that I'd really can't wait to be done this convocational gig, so that I can be full time and really pastor. But missing out on this.
this understanding is hey, you are actually in the community on mission, able to rub shoulders with people far from God, and to be salt and light and to, you know, have the opportunity to share and to be a witness with people. So I mean, that is past or ministry. And I think the future of church planting is certainly going to be much more convocational pastoral ministry with, yeah, with two jobs or maybe three jobs even.
Ron Baker (22:54.446)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, personally, I'll give a short story. I retired out of being a full-time pastor and have become somewhat of a side hustle guy and actually reaching out much more effectively. I have library background, so I've been a librarian in the last while, I've done the pastor thing. I also write for our local social media.
So when I walk downtown, people actually say, hi, Ron, and I say, hi, I'm glad to see you. Because I don't know who they are. But there's been an influence that has happened.
Rob Chartrand (23:29.217)
Yeah, yeah. Ha ha ha.
Right. Well, they probably talk to you in the streets because they can't talk to you in the library because you're not allowed to talk in the library, right? So
Ron Baker (23:38.422)
There you go. Yeah. Quiet, quiet, quiet.
Rob Chartrand (23:45.742)
Yeah, there is a trend that I've noticed for younger leaders to, you know, kind of lead the farm, lead the small town, move to the larger center and start maybe new churches or be part of large multiplying movements or, you know, there is a certain enticement towards that. But you've pastored a small church and I want to maybe give you an opportunity to share with some of our younger listeners.
who are thinking about ministry and thinking about maybe what's the next season looking like for them. And answer this question, why should anyone consider pastoring a small church?
Ron Baker (24:23.862)
I would start with saying that a small church is relational, it's people. And for that reason, you're going to find that your, if you want to call it measure of success, is people over the longterm. Programs come and go and they can go up and down. The fun part that I have is that I can look back.
having been in a small church, started in a small church, finishing in a small church. I could go back 30, 40 years and the words that I spoke and the mentoring and discipleship that I put into those people, because that was where I was at, that was what the relationship of a small church allows. They talked to me 30, 40 years later and they say, that affected me. I remember this, this was part of. To me, that was the greatest success.
That is the greatest success. If people haven't been changed, if there hasn't been a transformation in people's lives through your ministry and all you've done is provide programs and events as helpful as they are and as useful as they are, then I think you've missed something. And a small church provides that opportunity. That small, and most of what I would say about the reason why you wanna,
take on a small church and be part of that comes back to relationship and to people and to their, um, their reaching out to God and understanding who Jesus is and seeing that modeled by you. Um, yeah, that's, I, I suppose I could talk about other things like, you know, you get free zucchini in your back seat when this isn't there. I mean, that's all part of small church.
Rob Chartrand (26:14.695)
Ha ha!
Rob Chartrand (26:18.501)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's a beauty to a small church and being part of a community and that interconnectedness that's, that's not always there. You know, I was I was I've recently moved to Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, which is a city of like 35,000 very, very rural influenced agrarian economy here. And I mean, I was born and raised in Moose Jaw, but I've lived in like
I've lived in Edmonton, you know, so I've been gone for about 25 years and now I'm back into a smaller setting and you know, I go to a Canadian tire and The Canadian tire that's in the city and they're selling flowers and everyone there is it's a different ethos Like people are like we went there when there was a significant flower sale going on and there's everyone's kind everyone's talking to each other They're all chatting. They're all stopping. They're having a relationship
Ron Baker (26:55.882)
Yes, not Canadian.
Rob Chartrand (27:12.317)
And then a week later, I found myself in Edmonton. I'm downtown Edmonton. I'm going to meet a friend for coffee. And people are just rushing by. Nobody's looking at each other. Nobody's talking. And I think there's something to say about that, the effect that anonymity has on interpersonal relationships. In a city, the person I meet on the street, I just assume that I probably never again see this person in my life. Or the chances are is like one in 100,000, you know, that I'll ever see this person.
But the person I'm bumming into at the local Canadian tire and I'm rubbing shoulders with, I might see that person next week and they might even live on my street or I might bump into them at a choir or who knows, right? And so there's this, you can't be anonymous in a smaller context. And that changes the way that you relate with people because you can't just write them off as like widgets or cogs in some machine.
They're people that are just, you're just rubbing shoulders with. And I think the smaller the context becomes that you're part of, um, the more it just invites you into this interpersonal relationship. It's, it's necessitated by that, just by the context that you find yourself in. Um, and so I think the beauty of a small church is that, uh, it's hard to be anonymous and you have to build relationships and there's a beauty about that because your lives start becoming enmeshed in a good way in the best sense of the word.
where you there's a type of interaction there as opposed to you know kind of coming and going being anonymous sitting in the back pew checking out real early and getting into your car and going for Christian chicken afterwards it's a bit different it's a different world
Ron Baker (28:50.546)
It definitely is. It's another small story. The street that I live on currently in Kindersley, Saskatchewan, small town, has over the years changed. And believe it or not, next door is someone who was in my youth group that I led. Two houses past that is another person who would come to church and youth group, and go down about another house, and you come to someone who actually runs the manor in town, the activity center, and...
Rob Chartrand (28:55.427)
Yeah.
Ron Baker (29:19.83)
This is the block that I can walk and I can literally wave my hand at these people that I've known and that have known me over the years.
Rob Chartrand (29:30.081)
Yeah, wow, wonderful. You know, we might have some small church pastors listening in today and hey, let me just declare, I mean, we're not saying small church is the only church. We're, you know, on this podcast, we're gonna be talking to pastors from a variety of different church ministry contexts and God is using all of them and God is in all of them. But we're just talking specifically about small church today.
Ron, any encouragement to our small church pastors who are listening today? Anything that you want to share with them?
Ron Baker (30:04.927)
Enjoy.
Ron Baker (30:08.626)
Um, we, we tend to feel like we have to progress and be bigger and bigger. And we've, we've discussed that in this already in this podcast, but I think one of the best things past small church pastors can do is just sit back and love the people, enjoy them, uh, party. Um, you know,
We sometimes ask ourselves, what are we here for? And we come up with all these amazing visions and we forget that the vision's all about the people. So as a small church pastor, enjoy the people and you'll see that the vision arises, that you grab onto where you wanna go. I think one time, not too long ago, a fellow by the name of Stan Hogan had said to me,
coming to a church, the elders, he had consulted some elders as to whether he wanted to be in a particular church or wherever. And he says, what do I need to do to prepare for that? Do I need to take more preaching classes? Do I need to do that? And the elder wisely said, just go in, love the people, just love the people. And if you do that and enjoy their presence, you'll be a good small church.
Rob Chartrand (31:35.673)
Yeah, yeah, good word, good word. You know, and I think we want to encourage our small church pastors to get networked, to not do it alone, to, you know, and certainly that's something you can provide. If your denomination or if your fellowship or whatever you're part of, your association, maybe doesn't have those opportunities, they can connect with you guys and you are about that. So.
And any resources you can share for people to do that, to get connected.
Ron Baker (32:09.222)
Certainly, I run the podcast called This Is Us Canadian Small Churches in Action. You can find it on our website, cscmc.ca. We also have a YouTube channel and I also use some other podcasting platforms as well. It's a helpful place just to hear various people from academics to small church pastors and we've made an effort.
to actually talk to small church pastors instead of asking people who've talked to small church pastors who've talked to, and you know, so we actually talk to them and that's great. There are a number of resources that we also mention on our website and that you can find and link to people that are constantly in that whole area of small churches. So,
Rob Chartrand (32:40.537)
Right.
Ron Baker (33:02.39)
Check that out as well on our website. Another interesting resource is the pastor next door.
Ron Baker (33:15.762)
I just spoke with the United Church pastor here in town. It's a very interesting fellow and I love hanging out with him. He's just gone on holidays and he says, I'm taking these three books with me. I thought, wouldn't it be interesting to see what a United Church pastor takes on holidays? And so I took a, you know, I took my photo of the pic of the books that he had in mind and, and I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, wow, this is really quite interesting. I wonder if
maybe this is a resource I should have been using even though it's outside of my usual. And so, you know, the pastor next door is not a bad resource.
Rob Chartrand (33:53.737)
Okay, so that's available on Amazon. Probably. Yeah.
Ron Baker (33:57.078)
that. Yeah, probably. I have a few books available on Amazon as well. So I love it. Just I thought I would pull this one up. This is a recent book that I took the podcasts, had two students at Eston College and I went through and sifted through the podcasts that were done during COVID. Interesting stuff where they talked about multiculturalism and the accelerating of
Rob Chartrand (34:06.889)
Yes.
Ron Baker (34:25.162)
of COVID saying to small church pastors, hey, this is what the real problem was. You didn't see it, but COVID brought it out. So now how do you deal with that? And well, just a bunch of things. So that is available on Amazon under My Name Ron Baker or This Is Us Canadian Small Churches, the COVID Years. How much more advertising do I get here, Rob? Oh, sorry. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (34:49.742)
We'll put that in the show notes and I will say for our listening audience, I do have a copy of that book. I haven't cracked it yet, but I plan to and I'm looking forward to it. And particularly, I have a vested interest. One of the authors, co-authors there was a nephew of mine, so I'm excited to read it for his sake as well. So yeah, no, that's great. So we will again, we'll make all of that available in our show notes.
Ron Baker (34:56.13)
Yeah, good.
Ron Baker (35:05.598)
Yes, yes, a great guy.
Ron Baker (35:16.462)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (35:16.537)
but I think we're running out of time here, Ron. Thank you so much for the work that you do with small churches. It is a vital work. It is a significant work here in Canada. So appreciate all that you do and thanks for being with us today.
Ron Baker (35:31.182)
Well thank you, I've enjoyed this very much. Thanks Rob.
Rob Chartrand (35:34.265)
All right, blessings to you.