Welcome to Church in the North, a podcast by ministry leaders and for ministry leaders. This is Rob Chartrand, the host of the podcast, and this week, we're gonna change things up just a little bit. Our other hosts, Jeff and Chris, are taking the week off, and instead, instead, we're gonna do a collaborative podcast with a organization known as Youth Worker Community and their volunteer youth worker podcast. My my friend Jeremy MacDonald from Youth Worker Community invited me onto their show, and and we discussed the quiet revival and its implications for youth workers. And that podcast aired on January 19, episode two sixty three.
Rob Chartrand:And so we get the chance to reshare it with you, our listeners. If you haven't yet, I encourage you to check out the Volunteer Youth Worker podcast wherever you stream podcasts, and it is a show worth following, especially if you work with youth. And can I also say we so appreciate youth worker community and the work they're doing at equipping, empowering, and relationally supporting youth workers here in Canada? At Briarcrest, where I work, we are so proud to have them as partners and love working together to raise up and support a future generation of leaders for the church. So to learn more about them, check out their website online at youthworker.community.
Rob Chartrand:That's youthworker.community. Now before I dive in, let me just remind you, friends, that if you like what you hear on our podcast, please share your comments or hit that subscribe button for more great content from North Of The 49th Parallel. Also, we welcome suggestions or questions, and you can email those to us at podcast@churchinthenorth.ca. That's podcast@churchinthenorth.ca. And now let's dive into this conversation about the quiet revival with my friend Jeremy.
Jeremy MacDonald:Youth workers, I've got doctor Rob Chartrand, with us. Doctor Rob, not a medical doctor. Let's be clear. What is your
Rob Chartrand:Doctor Bob. What? Doctor Bob.
Jeremy MacDonald:What is your doctor? What actually is your doctor? I don't actually even know.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. It's, prophetic leadership and preaching.
Jeremy MacDonald:No way. Where'd you get that from? That's intense.
Rob Chartrand:Asbury. Yeah. At Asbury? Yeah. No
Jeremy MacDonald:way. Man, we haven't talked about this. I am at a Wesleyan Church, and so we love Asbury. I know.
Rob Chartrand:I know. Yeah. We're like we're like distant cousins.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Okay. And wow. Okay. I got more questions about that now.
Jeremy MacDonald:We can't do that though. Rob, where are you today? Where are you coming from? What are you up to these days?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Thanks, Gerard. Great to be on the podcast here. I am the, I'm a professor at Briarcrest, professor of Christian ministry, and a program coordinator for Christian ministry. So my wheelhouse is all about raising up young men and women for ministry, pastoral ministry, youth ministry, children's ministry, worship arts ministry.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. So that's the that's the that's where I'm coming from. And coming from thirty years of pastoral ministry experience, but I've been here at Briarcrest for four years.
Jeremy MacDonald:Which I love on so many levels. So if longtime listeners, will recognize and know, Briarcrest, my alma mater. That's where I did my undergrad. So and then also, I love the blend, and, you know, you and I have talked to ministry. We've been at our events together before.
Jeremy MacDonald:The blend of, you know what it's like on the ground in the in the local church, and then to be in a place where you cannot just even shape the next generation of workers, but also be at the forefront in the best possible ways as the as the academy to think about where we need to be in terms of ministry and where we need to be as the church. And so the idea that we've got a practitioner, but that's also so thoughtful. This is me just teeing you up. I I really appreciate the way that you talk and think about ministry. And so fill people in.
Jeremy MacDonald:So we got lots of volunteers listening. People that are you know, they've got small group coming up, you know, tonight, this week, whatever it might be. What are you noticing or what are you seeing in terms of trends around faith in our country of Canada that might be helpful or good for our youth workers to know about?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I mean, top of mind, this is probably not surprising to a lot of our youth workers, but, I'd love to talk about the religious resurgence that's happening in Canada with, Gen Z, you know, young adults, those older youth age, demographic. Interesting fact, like, at Briarcrest, our numbers have increased this year, which for many years, Christian education across the country, the general trend is, your numbers are shrinking. But we've had a a good a bunch of students coming in this year that's bumped their numbers above. So that I know that that not not, like, not super big bump, but enough to go, oh, what is going on here?
Rob Chartrand:Young people are are wanting to, learn the word and and become a deeper disciple of of Jesus. So but I I would attribute part of that to the reality of this religious resurgence that's happening in Canada.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Talk talk more about how we know that's an actual fact that that's actually happening. And as you say that, it makes me think of a family member's friend, young adult guy, who has ended up at a bible college, coming up, you know, in a month from when we're recording this. Anyways, I was talking with him this fall, and I'm like, how are you why'd you what made this decision for you? And he's like, bro, god's just got a hold of my life.
Jeremy MacDonald:Like, he's taking me on a ride. Like, oh, that's awesome. Also, do you know what program you're going into? But also cool. Like, this is great.
Jeremy MacDonald:How are you paying for this guy? So it's it is like there's something going on. Well, how do we know about it, and, where are you seeing the signs?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. So just the terminology, religious resurgence. I I think our listeners are probably familiar with the term quiet revival, and that's a terminology they're using, to describe what's happening primarily in The UK Yeah. With a a return of, young people, young adults to church and to faith in Christ, so, in a significant way. Whereas the trend for the last number of decades has been declined.
Rob Chartrand:And as you move down into the generations, the number walking away becomes increasingly great. Now that younger generations are actually on the increase, which is significant. Coming across the pond to North America, they've tracked some of this kind of happening in The US and kind of happening in Canada, but maybe not to the same degree. And so when people say, oh, the quiet revival's here in Canada. If you would have said that to me five weeks ago, six weeks ago, I would have said, okay.
Rob Chartrand:Show me the data. Yeah. I I'm a little bit skeptical. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of anecdotal information about what's happening, but show show me the data that this is in fact happening.
Rob Chartrand:Well, it's interesting. A couple weeks ago, CTV produced a video as well as an as a news article, talking about this phenomenon, which is is significant because, I mean, CTV and and CBC as well to follow. They did it as well. So they jumped on the bandwagon on this on this, idea. But what's significant about that is these are two news agencies that are typically not positively in favor of Christianity or religion.
Rob Chartrand:Like, they're they're usually trying to find where's Waldo, where's the fault we can find, and how can we publicize it. So what's interesting is they're they're they're recognizing what is happening among emerging generations. So they use the term religious resurgence. So that's different than a quiet revival. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Because religious resurgence is more of a sociological term because they're a secular news agency. That's all they can talk about. Yeah. Right? They can talk about the secular reality.
Rob Chartrand:Well, the reality is the numbers don't lie. Young people are heading back into churches, and there's data that that demonstrates this. Data that they they cite data from The US, from Barna. Barna, like, just recently did did some studies on this. They they look at at stories here happening here in Canada.
Rob Chartrand:They you know, there's a church on Bloor Street they look at. There's some data they're looking at in Canada. And the reality is that, for Gen z, more and more of them are returning to church. Now we're not talking about, like, suddenly there's a swing and 95% of Gen z are, but enough that the the trend has turned, and there's there's a significant percentage leap, something like 15% leap of of them returning.
Jeremy MacDonald:Well, yeah. You know, it makes me think. I'm just pulling up a research that I, again, I saw in Canada two published, and I wonder if sometimes the nature of the media's response is more about they're trying to read the tea leaves of where culture is. And so it'll be interesting to note if we start to see, you know, even the Canadian news outlets swinging in the direction of faith and positive faithness just because if that's where the culture is going, I'd be fascinated.
Rob Chartrand:But Well, this was They gotta sell papers.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if the audience is, like, no longer interested in in any kind of negative coverage. So, depending on who you're looking at, but there's a sense that, you know, the youngest generations are actually leading the way with religious attendance.
Jeremy MacDonald:And so and, this is Angus Reid in 2024. Yeah. 18 to 34 year olds
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Jeremy MacDonald:Were all of a sudden the number one highest percentage, 21. So there's still 80% not going to church monthly, but Right. That's a high bar. And then the crazy one is a net favorability of religion, which does include Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, but also, of course, Christianity. And in February, the 18 to 24 year old cohort is 40%, and then, and then it drops off to, like, 15.
Jeremy MacDonald:This is crazy stats. And so, like
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:I've got the Angus Reed study open read here. You're exactly right. 2020 That's nuts. Three to 2025. Like, this is recent.
Rob Chartrand:Like so this is, like, happening now. Yeah. It's fascinating.
Jeremy MacDonald:The thing that makes me nervous about this is that I'm used to youth ministry, and maybe everybody listening, you know, you're thinking about youth group, you think about it if you're, you know, in your twenties, late twenties, thirties, like, oh, we gotta do this thing where we try to convince people to care about faith and religion. We're using, you know, these long openers or big games or, like, you know, dramatic illustrations trying to convince somebody that Jesus matters. And it seems like maybe that's less needed these days. People are actually showing up with questions. Would that be fair to say?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I think that's fair to say. I mean and the article here, talks about that is, what they're discovering with the emerging generation is is they're growing up in a culture that isn't providing the answers that they have to the questions that they have. And what we're finding is there's there's a there's a certain amount of nihilism that's pervasive in the culture. And
Jeremy MacDonald:Just I know what nihilism is, but let's just pretend there's a person listening that doesn't know what nihilism is. Can you explain that? I mean, like,
Rob Chartrand:there's there's nihilism is that there's meaninglessness. K? Life is without meaning. Oh, it's no there's no ontological so here, I'm gonna use bad terms. But there's no there's no reason to believe that there's meaning at all.
Rob Chartrand:There's nothing. K. Right? So meaningless and meaningless, everything is meaningless, right, as you'd find in Ecclesiastes, which is, like, just the cultural reality when you when you take away the big god story, when you take away the reason for being, it ultimately spirals down into meaninglessness. And so these young people are are going into churches, looking for meaning and finding meaning through Christ.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Wow. Okay. That's interesting. So as a as somebody that's kinda watching this, what is that like?
Jeremy MacDonald:Have you put thought into you you know, you're you're raising up the generation of leaders for the church. What does this mean for our practical ministry? What does it mean for a small group leader? You know, showing up and you have got a new kid coming or, you know, buddy came of a friend and, like, how does this tweak or change the way that we might think about our investment into the next generation?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I I think well, okay. So let let's talk about large scale what you do with your youth ministry. Like, on a large scale, you've already talked about this. Like, do we do we do we create these big exciting events and bring people and give them free pizza and then lock them in a room and then tell them the god story?
Rob Chartrand:You know? So the attractional type of process, and there's nothing wrong with the attractional. Right? But, I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, we we don't have to convince young people a certain segment of the young population to come because we're having a big game. What they're coming for for is answers.
Rob Chartrand:So that's on a macro level in our youth ministries. So but, you know, from a small group standpoint, I I think what young people are are wanting is an authentic faith from an authentic believer in Christ, and one who can express the faith, I think, in a compelling way. And and and and I think, you know, Jerry, you and I talked about this earlier on is, I mean, they're they're not looking for, you to be cool. They're not looking for you to try and, find a way to to zing up the message and and make it. The message will stand on its own two legs, the message of Christ.
Rob Chartrand:And they want the real Christ and authentic Christ and authentic faith. And one that gives them an answer to to the meaninglessness, and I think one that ultimately is gonna give them an answer even to suffering, particularly, you know, when we're experiencing a mental health crisis with this emerging generation. And it's all linked. It's all linked. The nihilism, the meaninglessness, the reality of of this this kind of postmodern ethos that we find ourselves in, it's all connected with mental health.
Jeremy MacDonald:Okay. So maybe go, tell us a bit more about this because this is now where I'm thinking. So and we might be playing a little bit heavy for some youth workers and you're like, hey. I need I just need to figure out how to convince this, you know, quiet kid to talk. That's okay.
Jeremy MacDonald:We got an episode for that.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy MacDonald:Come back to this one if you need it. But I I think, like, okay. So for some youth workers, they're like, oh, this is great. Cut out the games. We just preach Jesus.
Jeremy MacDonald:My challenge or my concern or my question is sometimes we've dev we've we've emptied the message that we have down to the one salvation message. And so then we're like, oh, perfect. We're just gonna preach sin and repentance every single week. And, like, that's that's what our kids are looking for. Right?
Jeremy MacDonald:And then and then we think, oh, and this is maybe some of my friends that might lean a little bit more reformed or a little bit more conservative, and it's like, sin repentance, sin repentance, sin repentance. And it's like, yeah, but you haven't yet invited people into the deep meaning beyond the beautiful thing that is the cross. What's the like, what would you what would you say to that group that is still gonna jump to maybe just still a a kinda shallow, ministry response, which is, oh, now we can just preach sin and repentance every every time we get together.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. And so don't hear me wrong. Don't cut out the games. I mean, those are important. They're valuable.
Rob Chartrand:Right? But don't don't lean on the games. The games is is not what's what's gonna build your ministry. The the games is not what the the young people ultimately want. Right?
Rob Chartrand:So Well and cut those
Jeremy MacDonald:off. Well and interestingly enough, we did a a two part series, in back in the in the winter on games, and just this idea that there's actually a theological implication if you're thoughtful about your games that in the new creation, like, play enjoyment of each other community, that this could be an expression of it. And so but that requires more thoughtfulness than just, we're doing this crazy thing so that, you you know, you think that this is a crazy group. No. That's not the point of game.
Jeremy MacDonald:Game is actually Yeah. Like, again, community play enjoyment. And so there's could be thoughtfulness even theologically to that. So maybe, yeah, don't give those things up. But trying to convince people like, this ain't your grandma's church, like, we're gonna chug maple syrup.
Jeremy MacDonald:That's always the example that I use. Like, well, that's not as hip and cool. Fear factor. Yeah. Let's do fear factor.
Jeremy MacDonald:Oh, this is an aside. We can't talk too much about it. We did fear factor when I was in high school at my church with, like, our young adult service. Rob, legitimately, I was put in a box the size of a coffin with a bowl constrictor snake, and then they locked me in there as people are watching, and my partner had to find keys to unlock the box. That's crazy.
Jeremy MacDonald:So I survived evangelicalism in the early two thousands is all I'm trying to say.
Rob Chartrand:Were were you terrified, or were you just like nice snake?
Jeremy MacDonald:I no. I was terrified for my life, and probably have some regressed trauma from it, but, it was, anyways, there's a lot going on to that, and, you know, let's let's move on. But the point being
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. So the games We can give up fear factor nights. Games I agree. The games are a great way of of even an expression of how the body of Christ loves each other Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:As as the people of god. Like, I mean, I grew up playing street ball, and, you know, street ball was murderous sometimes. Right? But then I go to a Christian youth group, and they're playing games, and and everyone's getting along, but they're still competitive. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:But they're get know, it was just a different world. It's a contrast in worlds. So but okay. So back to their question about, you know, do we just preach sin and repentance and whatnot? I I think I think, yes, you you it's important to do that, but I would be concerned about a couple of things.
Rob Chartrand:One, what what postmodernism has done is it's you know, I I mean, I know this is a big term for our listeners, but postmodernism is suspicious of metanarratives. In other words, it's suspicious of big stories that explain reality. It's suspicious about that. And so we live in a culture that is gonna yank out all the big stories and say there is no story. It's just meaningless.
Rob Chartrand:It's just you're just floating. Right? Whereas Christianity has a story. We are a storied people. We live in this story of the gospel that starts in Genesis.
Rob Chartrand:It's and it will finally culminate in, say, Revelation and and and and, you know, our great and future hope. Yeah. We're living in this story, and I think what our emerging generation needs is a better story. Yeah. They need to find a better story, a story of new creation, a story of of community, a story of restoration, a story of hope.
Rob Chartrand:And so if all you talk about is this moment of making that sinner's prayer at the cross, you can miss so much of the rest of the story. The reality of the story is we're not just the people of the cross. We're people of the resurrection. Yeah. And as a people of the resurrection, what the resurrection promises is new life now and new life forevermore.
Rob Chartrand:And we can step into this new life, this new hope, this new reality. And that's what young people are ultimately looking for. They they want to find a better story that they can live in, because what the culture is telling them is vacuous and empty.
Jeremy MacDonald:I love that so much. Where would you say, this can either be personal or when you're working with your students, where do you find that people are surprised that the faith that their faith story is actually connected to this new part of their life? Because I think, you know, in in my earlier example of, like, you know, sin and repentance, that covers, like, a segment of our faith and a segment of your life. But then, you know, lots of people have recognized like this doesn't connect the rest of my life story. It doesn't talk about how I, you know, experience intimacy or how I experience, you know, community or love or how I experience meaning and purpose.
Jeremy MacDonald:And so can you just maybe give a couple of examples of where the story of God connects to our students' lives that will help us as volunteers be like, oh, yeah. Maybe I should be saying when I'm hearing about the life of a student, hey. Have you ever thought how, you know, Jesus speaks to that or how our our faith of the scripture speak to that to kinda build the bridge to all the different parts of life?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. So, let me just say, I I think we need a, more robust gospel that is includes the cross, but also includes all the aspects of the of the life of Christ and the person of Christ. So Christ our gospel the center of the gospel is Christ. Without Christ, there is no gospel. So and so when I say gospel, I'm not talking about the four spiritual laws.
Rob Chartrand:I'm talking about the good news of Israel's rightful messiah king coming in the shape of a of a man as a person, right, the incarnation, living among us, preaching the kingdom, modeling the kingdom, healing, whatnot, doing the things of the kingdom, ushering in the kingdom, dying on the cross, his crucifixion, rising again from the dead, so demonstrating his victory over sin, death, the forces forces of evil. Right? Glorified going to the right hand of the father, and then he'll come and return again. So all those aspects of the story, I think, are significant Yeah. When we talk to our students.
Rob Chartrand:Now you you might say, well, what do I do? Do every week, I go through all of those different phases of the story, or do I hit one of them hard? No. No. They you weave them into the story of every part of a young person's life.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Because I think the every aspect of the gospel has answers to the the issues that a young person is is is dealing with. And and so often in youth ministries, we hit on these hot button little topics, these hot button different issues, and we miss the grander story. And so if we can bring that story in in a practical way so let me give you an example. I mean, let's talk about the issue of mental health and suffering and young people experiencing suffering.
Rob Chartrand:Well, did you know that Jesus suffered as well? Right. That he suffered on the cross? Do you know that Jesus lived the life here on Earth where, he was faced reject rejection even by his best friend? Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Like, that that and that he empathizes with you in your weakness because Jesus himself has suffered? You know, did you know that Jesus went through suffering so that you would no longer have to have suffering? He was crucified. Right? Do you know that Jesus offers you abundant life, holy spirit power in this life to overcome suffering as you're experiencing it through his resurrection?
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Right? Do you know that Jesus sits at the right hand of the father right now? He's glorified, and you can approach his throne of grace with confidence to receive mercy, to help you in your time of need? Do you know that Jesus is glorified at the right hand of the father, and he's interceding for you in your suffering right now? And do you know this?
Rob Chartrand:Like, one day, Jesus will come back. He will return, and he will fix everything. Yeah. He will bring justice that we deeply long for to the earth. He will, you know, so in all of these ways, you you you the cross the I mean, the gospel, the fullness of the gospel, I think, provides answers to every need that a young person has.
Rob Chartrand:But what you need to do is bring them into the story. It needs to be a storied understanding of the Christian faith.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. That's such a good reminder. And I know that that doesn't answer every situation, but it's a helpful thing for, I think, us as volunteers to try to find we gotta be careful not to Jesus juke kids, obviously, but, like, to
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. To to where appropriate as, like, they're opening and they're sharing and we're talking to affirm the ways that the story of God actually connects to all parts of our own journeys and stories.
Rob Chartrand:So so you tell me a little bit about that, Jeremy. I'd love to hear that. Like, when when you say we don't over Jesus people, what does that mean?
Jeremy MacDonald:Sorry. Jesus juke it. So Jesus juke it. Yeah. So, like, the bad example, because it's bad theology, is, like, you know, a kid comes and they're like, they're my grandma died.
Jeremy MacDonald:And then, you know, youth leaders are like, well, heaven gained another angel. Like, it must have been their time.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Jeremy MacDonald:And they're like, oh, that's actually not what we believe theologically. Like, that's actually really off in a few different ways. And so, like, they were just cautious. That's maybe an inappropriate way to connect to the story of God. But there is a sense that that there is and so you kinda have to weave this with emotional intelligence that
Rob Chartrand:That's right. That even in our grief
Jeremy MacDonald:that you can bring that to the father, that death doesn't have to be the end of the story. And so you're trying to watch for the ways that this is appropriate, and that's maybe harder to to kinda give a hand
Rob Chartrand:For sure. Yeah. And and if a young person's suffering, I mean, the the last thing they need right away is a platitude from you. Exactly. What they really need you to do is just sit on the curb with them, put your arm around and say, hey.
Rob Chartrand:Listen. I don't understand what you're going through, but I'm here for you. Yeah. That's all I want you to know. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:And I'll be with you in in this, and I'm I'm praying for you. You know?
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. And maybe even to model the prayers. Like, sometimes even for students, like, in those moments, you know, our prayers can be a way in. Because I wonder if to to embody what you're explaining is, like, to pray for a student that's suffering, that God would intercede for them or sorry, that Jesus would be interceding for them that, you know, in this suffering and that the lord would be present with them. That sounds different than, you you know, hey, god.
Jeremy MacDonald:Make them feel better. Like because they may not
Rob Chartrand:feel better.
Jeremy MacDonald:And so Absolutely. It could be at this disservice where if you're with a kid who's, like, experiencing extreme trauma and you're like, just pray that this all goes away, and you're like, but what if it doesn't? Does does our faith have a lens to still see, you know, something through this or see this kid through that? So that's maybe where I'd be thinking.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Well and yeah. And and, like, I think the other one that's really bad is, you you you give them the the pitch. Well, you know, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You know?
Rob Chartrand:Right. I think it was it was Nietzsche who first said that.
Jeremy MacDonald:Oh, interesting.
Rob Chartrand:And then I think Katy Perry, know, you or whoever no. Who was it? Did the song, whatever. You gotta it wasn't Katy. It was, anyway, the one who won American Idol.
Rob Chartrand:You you know what I mean? And and, like, well, no. Actually, sometimes you suffer and it doesn't make you stronger. It it just kills you.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Like Yes. Which is why we need the great and future hope. Like, the our hope is not that every time I suffer, it's gonna make me stronger. No. Listen.
Rob Chartrand:I'm getting older. Like, sometimes I suffer, that bad knee just stays a bad knee for the rest of your life. Yeah. Like, it's just life.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Yeah. And that's and that's yeah. We gotta show a way through with that. Okay.
Rob Chartrand:So But I think the gospel can lead can lead it can lead us through that. So, you know, when we're experiencing meaningless in this culture, boy, I I wanna I wanna lean in with Jesus Yeah. And lean in with the gospel.
Jeremy MacDonald:I love this so much. Okay. Let me let me then ask. Let me bring you out, so this is really a beautiful journey conversation. I like that this is, like, connect people's story to the story of God.
Jeremy MacDonald:What, for a couple of volunteers that are like, hey. I'm showing up this week, and I'm gonna interact with a new kid, like, they're showing up to church maybe on even on Sunday, or they're they're wandering into my church. What are some ways that you might suggest, especially considering our research and what the culture is saying? How might we engage that person? What are some of the early questions that we might be asking them to kinda get a sense of where they're at in their journey?
Jeremy MacDonald:Because they might actually be coming with pretty thoughtful concerns or questions or have seen things on YouTube, you know, about faith. How how might you interact with them?
Rob Chartrand:Well, I mean, I it really depends on, if they just walked in blindly off the street or if they came with somebody.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Right? And I don't wanna interrogate the snot out of people, but I do wanna I'd I'd love to hear their story and and, what brought them to youth group, what brought them there. Yeah. And then from there, to to kinda find out where then I would be discerning what it is that they're looking for, and then I might so I might dig deeper. Like, I might ask more deeper questions about that.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:So it really depends on how they got there. I mean, if if a friend brought them, you know, and they're there for the game and, you know, that might be the only reason why they're there. You know, they're they're kind of at the top of the funnel and and just, like, checking it out. I don't wanna scare them away. Sure.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. But what I do want what I do want is to, meet them where they're at just as Jesus would, right, in the incarnation, and just as Paul would, becoming all things to all men so that by all possible means, might save some. Meet them where they're at and give them welcome and hospitality, which I think are two incredibly powerful ways of embodying Jesus with a new person. Yeah. And let them know that nothing they say is gonna shock me.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Like, that I I'm still gonna just be just as warm and just as loving and just so glad they're there. Yep. But if I find out they're looking for more, then I I, you know, I I certainly would respond appropriately. Yep.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. And being ready because I I think, yeah, the stories that we're hearing, I know you've got lots of stories from ministries that you're connected with and the stories that we're hearing from stuff that I'm I'm you know, get to be a part of. It's, yeah, it's exciting. It's encouraging, and, yeah, there's lots of fun fun things happening. That's for sure.
Jeremy MacDonald:It's a fun time to be doing ministry, I guess, is maybe the bottom line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The harvest So one
Rob Chartrand:of the other one one of the other things that the study, explores, Jer, is, the reality of, more men stepping into church in this emerging generation than women.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. What do you make of that? Well, man, I mean, just give a little bit of background for for our listeners. They might not know the data, but over the last decade, the greatest drop in church participation has been among women.
Rob Chartrand:K. So more women dropped out. So historically, there's there's typically been more women in churches than men, kind of a sixty forty split or a 55, 45% split. Yeah. But the number dropped, so there were fewer women attending church than men.
Rob Chartrand:And, you know, this response to a lot of different cultural issues, evangelicalism, bad role models, toxicity, etcetera, etcetera. Right? So, you know, I'm just painting the reality. But now what has what has changed is, more men are now returning to church. And when I say men, I mean, like, older youth, younger adults, and but also women are returning as well.
Rob Chartrand:But the trend is higher for young adult men than than for women. So so that's really interesting. So so, yeah, there's some cultural realities, I think, that we could we could explore there if if you wanna dive into that.
Jeremy MacDonald:Well, yeah, I would wonder what does that mean for, like, for our our youth groups? Because I think a lot of or maybe let me ask you this way. So, you know, we would articulate most of our groups are kind of like there's preaching. You know, there's small groups. You sit in a small group, and our and we've got a list of questions.
Jeremy MacDonald:We talk about things, and then then then we go from there. When you hear that more men are coming out, does that model of ministry, do you feel like that should be tweaked or adjusted any, or do you think it, people if men are coming in particular, is this is it leaned towards trying to do something different than we've done lately? How do you how do you think about that?
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I mean, first of all, let me just say, the gospel is for everyone, for men and for women. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:There's neither Jew nor Greek slave nor free, male nor female, it says in Galatians. Right? For we're all we're all one in Christ. Right? So but on the other hand, we don't wanna ignore the reality that god created us male and female, and there are some distinctions between male and female.
Rob Chartrand:I mean, some of those are biological, obviously biological. Some of them are, you know, cultural cultural distinctions that we make. Yeah. I I I boy, you could really get into hot water by using male or female stereotypes here.
Jeremy MacDonald:But, I mean so this is an interesting day. We were hesitant on on the stereotypes for for a season, and I think we gotta be cautious. Obviously, we you know, stereotypes what are stereotypes? There are there's a sense that over a higher percentage of a population lean in a particular direction. You know, that's a stereotype, and we wanna be careful.
Jeremy MacDonald:That's not everybody. But does it change it when we're starting to recognize, man, it seems like a lot of our guys are listening to the same podcasts or consuming similar type of content or the majority of our young men are, you know, chasing after these particular vices. And and does that tweak or change? Because I think the stereotype, if I'm thinking about a young man, a vice right now that most people aren't speaking to would be sports betting. And, like Right.
Jeremy MacDonald:Sports betting is, like, this huge, especially in The States, this huge issue. And it's like, hey. If we could just stereotype, there's a probable chance that if you got a group of young adult men that there's a lot of them that are are struggling with this. And so would we be willing to adjust how we talk about ministry or how we think about faith or how we ask questions in order to recognize that? That's that's maybe more so more so where I go.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I mean, I think there are certain topics that you can explore from a male standpoint, for sure. I think that's important. And whether you break out to your youth group into men in one room, women in another, talk about these issues, or within a small group context, you break it down, and you can have conversations about that, in an all guy group and all girl group. I I think that's important from a content standpoint.
Rob Chartrand:But I I also wanna address worship Interesting. Also want to address Worship. But also want to address, just how we, design our our activities. Yeah. So one of the distinctions I'll make about men is, and Jonathan Haidt talks about this in his book, The Anxious Generation.
Rob Chartrand:And the reality is that by through through social media, through video games, through an online virtual world, we've taken something away from men, which is men typically, historically, and biologically like to stand face to face and shoulder to shoulder. So we love competition Yeah. Against other men. Like, that's a really part of significant part of being a man, And we love standing shoulder to shoulder like a like a phalanx in in a Roman army. Like, standing shoulder to shoulder and doing something together.
Rob Chartrand:And and oftentimes, what does church consist of? Sitting in chairs, singing songs, listening to a sermon, and then, you know and so we we we're taking away something that's really significant about a male identity. And is there a way that we can think about how we engage young men in doing something like that? That's where they're standing face to face or shoulder to shoulder, whether in competition or whether in going out and doing a Habitat for Humanity build or something like that. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Like, thinking about a way that they process faith. Now the other thing is is worship. I think it was about ten, fifteen years ago, there was a book that was written, why men hate going to church. Do you remember that book? I don't know if you ever read it.
Jeremy MacDonald:I don't I don't I didn't read the book, but I remember people talking about the findings and about yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. And and, I mean, you know, some of them are disputable for sure, but one of the ones is is talks about the feminization of worship.
Jeremy MacDonald:Right.
Rob Chartrand:That in some contexts, this isn't always true, but worship can appeal more towards a nurturing relational type of person. And it's not that men aren't, but less towards other themes that are what I what I find interesting, Jeris, is, like, a lot of guys really respond to songs about victory Yeah. Songs about Christ overcoming, Christ's return. Right?
Jeremy MacDonald:Yep.
Rob Chartrand:And, like, even, like, very, kinda high church hymn type of songs. You know? And we're seeing some of those emerge more and more. It's got, four verses and a and a and a and a, you know, and a and a chorus as well that's in it, but it in the end, it kind of it kinda you know, there's this victory of the the church and of Christ and whatnot.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:And that's really appealing to men. So those are some things I think that we have to consider. And and, again, listeners, please do not hear me in saying that, that wouldn't appeal to women, right, or that all men are exactly like this because I think we've done an injustice in the in the in the church to men by saying, well, all men if you're a real man Right. You, have a big burly beard like a lumberjack. You wear jeans and a plaid shirt, and you drink black coffee in the morning and scotch in the evening with a cigar, and this is, you know and you you talk about theology.
Rob Chartrand:That's a man. That's a real man.
Jeremy MacDonald:Right? So yeah. But I think you're you know, I think it's I think it's so helpful to just process and ask and be curious about, okay, what are the, yeah, what is the nature of the guys that are coming into our group? And are we are we doing things as a reflex to what we've seen done in the past or what we've experienced in the past, or are we authentically trying to figure out what does this mean for this day in our community to be the church together? And I think sometimes, you know, youth group is classic.
Jeremy MacDonald:As, you know, volunteers, you guys are listening, you you know, if your group just looks very similar to what your youth group experience was twenty years ago, that could be great as long as you're thoughtful about it and you're intentional. But if it's just because this is the way we've always done it, it is worth just taking note, read maybe some of these articles that are coming out, understand the questions that are a little bit different perhaps for this generation, and be able to respond in introducing students to the gospel that transforms. And so I think this is so helpful. Rob, you know, would you do, this is me asking, so this don't don't feel like this was a a juke at all. Would you explain to people a little bit about what you're up to at Briarcrest in preparing the next generation of leaders?
Jeremy MacDonald:Because I think for any of our youth workers listening, one of the things these days we're trying to be really forward about is that the future of the church in Canada, especially, is dependent on the next generation of leaders. And right now, we are at a deficit, and we actually need our youth workers. The answer is in our youth workers that they would be raising up their high school students with a vision that some of them need to step into ministry and step into vocational kind of roles. And so what does that mean in your world that, what you guys are up to at Briarcrest? I think it'd be helpful for them to hear.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Okay. So, first, I I I wanna say that our our Christian ministry program that that I lead, exists within a larger greenhouse, and the greenhouse is what we're doing at Briarcrest right now. So Briarcrest is a covenant school, which means that, if you're gonna come and be part of Briarcrest, it's not open enrollment. You have to sign a covenant.
Rob Chartrand:Mhmm. And we're, within that covenant, we place a high value on discipleship. So I'm actually I'm under my other one of my other roles at Briarcrest is I'm the strategic director of discipleship for Briarcrest, and that includes all three schools. So the high school, the college, as well as the seminary. And each school addresses this a little bit differently.
Rob Chartrand:But we want Briarcrest to be a greenhouse where every student who comes here, particularly in the college, is on a journey of discipleship. And we're actually pretty like, more than ever before, we're very explicit about what that looks like in certain experiences in different environments. So we've really we've got something called the five marks of a disciple and all that. So that's it's within this framework then that Christian ministry department exists. And in our Christian ministry department, we want students to come out, with a number of things.
Rob Chartrand:Number one, a deep love for the word of god. Yep. That's that's paramount. Number two, a deep love for Christ. So spiritual formation is is significant for
Jeremy MacDonald:us. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Number three is, we want them to love the church. Like, and and I and I think a lot of programs, can sometimes be antagonistic towards the church or talk about everything that's going wrong with the church. And I I love the church. You know? I think it was Augustine say, pardon my my French on this one, but she's a whore, but she's my mother.
Rob Chartrand:That's what Augustine is safe. Right? So, yes, she's got blemishes, and there's things wrong with her, but she she's the the church is the church. It's Christ's bride. Right?
Rob Chartrand:And and he loves the bride. I wanna love the bride. And I've I've just had so many amazing experiences in the church that I I wanna want that to rub off on our students. We want that, and then we want students to to, to have practical ministry experience. Yep.
Rob Chartrand:So layered on top of all of that, you know, one of our models here is, but can you preach, bruh? So in other words, you might know your bible, and you might know theology, but at the end of the day, can you preach? Yeah. So in other words, can you take the word of God and translate it in such a way that it enters into the hearts and minds of listeners and and through the power of the holy spirit brings about change. I mean, that's important to us.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:So practical ministry is significant. And in our program, your fourth year, we actually send you off on an eighteen credit hour internship. So I don't know many other programs across the country that that do that in a bible college, but you you, we send we send our students off to churches with amazing mentor in that church for a full seven, eight months, and, and we train the mentors, and we work closely with the mentors. It's cohort based learning as well. So and and it's because we want them to have practical skills, for for ministry.
Rob Chartrand:So the program has changed. The program has doubled in the last three or four years here, since since since, I've come, and I I'm just excited to see, these young people being prepared for ministry.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've you know, we've talked a lot about ministry preparedness, you know, offline and other places, and I really appreciate your thoughtfulness on it because, like we said, youth workers that you're listening, you play a really critical role, and we we're gonna try to get sharper and better at explaining this, but, like, the future of the church is dependent on will you help your students understand that some of them need to step in. And, you know, I don't know what you think about this, Rob, but I I you know, one of the ministry leaders I look up to, you know, he would say he's like, I don't I don't never had like a wild call to ministry. I kinda just saw a need and I volunteered, and I hope that's okay.
Jeremy MacDonald:And so, you you know, for lots of people, that's also the thing. It's like, you maybe your students aren't having this, like, earth shattering moment of revelation that they need to go and be in full time ministry. But if they could recognize that there's a need out there and they could step in and fill that that need, Briarcrest is a wonderful place. I know it was formational for me, and and I'm glad that it's still kicking around and doing good work.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. You know, I and you know this, Jared. I mean, I I I I have a podcast, Church in the North podcast, and I ask ministry leaders all the time. Every single ministry leader, how how did you end up in ministry? Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:You know, where did you receive your calling? There is no singular monolithic, way of describing the calling. It's different for everybody. Yeah. It's different.
Rob Chartrand:But I will say this, like, most of them found their calling by doing it. Yeah. By just seeing like you said, seeing a need, responding to it, stepping into it, and then realizing, oh, man. I think Jesus really wants me to do this, or I can do this. I see my giftings.
Jeremy MacDonald:Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Alright. Well, we're gonna link lots of these things in the show notes. Is there anything that you wanna say as a final word to our volunteer youth workers?
Rob Chartrand:Well, hey. Yes. Absolutely. I was a youth pastor for twelve years, and so I know the challenges that it that you face, challenges with parents, challenges with the church, challenges with your youth, challenges within your own home and your family and whatnot. And so I I I just wanna let you know I'm I get that.
Rob Chartrand:I understand that. But the thing that's preserved me, through all the years is always been to draw near to God, draw near to Christ, to step into my relationship with him every single day, and that will preserve you, that will keep you. Of course, other good things, good leadership, good mentors, good community, etcetera, etcetera. But the center of it all is Christ himself. And so, Jesus is near to you in your suffering and in your need.
Rob Chartrand:And, so lean in. Lean in. Lean in.
Jeremy MacDonald:It's a good word. Thank you guys for listening, and you truly are making an eternal difference. We'll see you next time on the Volunteer Youth Worker Podcast.
Rob Chartrand:Thanks, podcast, a production of Briarcrest College. To learn more about Briarcrest, visit briarcrest.ca. We all know that when something is good, it's worth sharing, so why not pass on today's episode to a ministry leader or someone who will find it helpful? Also, don't forget to leave us a review, share your comments, or hit that subscribe button. We love questions and suggestions, so email us at podcast@Briarcrest.ca.
Rob Chartrand:And for more information about the podcast and our hosts, visit churchinthenorth.ca. Thanks for listening. Until next time.