Tim Barnett (00:02.378)
No, sweet, let's do it.
Rob Chartrand (00:04.651)
Well, hey, we are so excited to have with us Tim Barnett. He is an apologist and speaker with Stand to Reason. And Tim, so glad to have you here on Church in the North.
Tim Barnett (00:14.727)
Yeah, it's good to be with you.
Rob Chartrand (00:17.175)
So for our listeners sake, why don't you tell us what is it that you actually do around here? What is Stand to Reason? What is Red Pen Logic, the two organizations that you're most connected with?
Tim Barnett (00:27.438)
Hmm.
Yeah, so I am a full-time Christian apologist. And if people aren't familiar with that word, apologist, you know, I don't go around saying, I'm so sorry, I'm a Christian, please forgive me. No, I tell people, we make other people sorry, we're Christians. No, we don't do that either. But actually, that's what a lot of people think when they hear the word apologetics. They think of these jerks for Jesus or something. And that's not what we do.
What I do is I train Christians to think more clearly about their Christian convictions. And so I work with the ministry based in Southern California, although I live just north of Toronto. So I'm a Canadian boy. And so we travel across the US, we travel across Canada, teaching people not just what to believe, but also why they should believe it.
And so that's my work with Red Pen Logic. And a couple of years ago, we started something called Red Pen Logic. So we've got standard reason and we have Red Pen Logic. And Red Pen Logic is really something on social media where we're responding to the memes, the challenges, the TikTok videos, the Instagram posts, all that stuff you would see when you're just scrolling through your social media feed, those challenges that come up.
We're just playing those challenges and then offering up a quick response. So, you know, if you got three minutes, you can watch a Red Pen Logic video and hopefully that gets people thinking and equipped to be able to respond to those challenges for themselves.
Rob Chartrand (02:08.987)
Okay, so you also do like what's the standard reason you do conference speaking, church speaking workshops, etc.
Tim Barnett (02:15.858)
You name it. Yeah, we travel around. I get invited to speak on Sunday mornings for church services. We do the Friday or Wednesday night youth events. And then we do full-blown conferences. In fact, we started putting on our own conferences, a student apologetics conference that we call Reality, the Reality Student Apologetics Conference. And we're reaching thousands of young people. It started as one conference in Southern California.
Rob Chartrand (02:17.859)
CLEARS THROAT
Rob Chartrand (02:34.423)
Hmm. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (02:44.882)
It's grown now to six conferences across the US. And our biggest one is actually in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We're at the biggest church that they have there in the state, 4,500 cedar auditorium. And this past November, we had around 4,000. And so when people say that, you know, the church doesn't care about apologetics, I think that's laughable.
because we are selling out venues. Our problem is that we can't find churches big enough to hold the number of students that wanna show up at these things. So I think if you do it right, they'll show up.
Rob Chartrand (03:28.491)
Wow. Okay, I want to I want to so much I can talk about there. I want to put a pin in that I want to talk about the Canadian context for apologetics because that's something that's very different than the American but let's talk let's talk about your story a little bit. I mean, you were a teacher in high school and you ended up going from that to stand to reason give us the journey.
Tim Barnett (03:32.734)
Yeah, sure. OK.
Tim Barnett (03:41.62)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (03:51.486)
Yeah, so I went to all the public school system, elementary school, then to high school, and I was really good at math and science. And so I went into first engineering at York University. They had just started a program. I thought this will be fun. And then I got a letter from York basically saying, hey, we're scrapping this program. And so I had to switch my major. But at that time, I fell in love with teaching. I was actually helping a lot of my...
fellow, you know, my friends, these other students with their homework. And I thought, man, I could do this for a living, I think. So I changed my major to physics and math and graduated with that degree with the hope of going to teachers college, which I did, and with the hope of becoming a full-time high school teacher. And first got my, my first job was with People's Christian Academy and working at Christian school again. That was kind of a providential thing.
I had no interest actually in working in Christian education because I hadn't had any exposure to it. So it wasn't on my radar, but a job opportunity came up and at the time, jobs were scarce. And so I took it. And it was actually through that, working at that school where I learned about this whole world of apologetics. I tried to cut my teeth on it in university, actually defending my faith for the first time with my friends. We could talk more about that later. But...
Rob Chartrand (04:55.052)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (05:18.208)
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Barnett (05:20.338)
through the Bible chaplain actually at People's Christian Academy, he introduced me to C.S. Lewis and William Lane Craig and Josh McDowell and Tim Keller and all these different people that I had frankly never heard of, which is a shame. How could I be in my 20s and grown up in the church and not heard of these players? Well, I soon fell in love with not just teaching,
but teaching the things of God, teaching theology, teaching apologetics, started volunteering. Hey, calling up churches, emailing churches. Hey, I'd love to come speak at your church. Unfortunately, I mean, I probably sent a hundred emails and got like two responses. And one of those, I actually went up to Tim Hortons with the pastor and it did not go well. In fact, he spent most of the time challenging me on even the need for apologetics.
Rob Chartrand (06:02.574)
Wow.
Tim Barnett (06:13.502)
So it wasn't really what I expected. So that didn't materialize into an event. But from there, got more and more events. You know how this works, you start to snowball. People find out what you're doing. You get more invitations. Until I end up speaking at an event where Sean McDowell was the keynote speaker. It was in Brampton. And he heard me speak, told his friends out in California, stand to reason, you gotta get this Canadian at your conference, your student conference.
and they flew me out and I thought, wow, I have arrived. This is it for me. You know, if my plane goes down, this is like, this was the goal, was to speak at conferences like this. And that turned into a job offer. And I eventually accepted that job, although I think I told you this before, I had turned down the job because they wanted me to move to California.
and you can throw a rock in any direction and hit an apologist in California. Okay, that's where they go. That's like the American Mecca for apologetics ministry. So I ended up turning the job down with the goal of reaching Canadians with this kind of material. Well, they phone me back about a month later, two months later saying, hey, if you live near an airport, we can make this work.
Rob Chartrand (07:16.124)
Hehehe
Tim Barnett (07:40.286)
So here we go, you know, and I've been doing this for nine years professionally as a full-time Christian apologist speaker, read pen logic, that's since COVID. So that's like the content creator side. And then of course, just a few months ago, published my first book. So now I can put the title author on there too.
Rob Chartrand (08:03.251)
Right, right. So just for our listener's sake, who is Sean McDowell?
Tim Barnett (08:07.87)
So Sean McDowell is the son of the famous Christian apologist Josh McDowell. Josh McDowell wrote a couple big bestselling books. So one is called, oh yeah, More Than a Carpenter. So this argument for the deity of Jesus in the resurrection, I think, Evidence that Demands a Verdict is this big textbook going through all kinds of evidence from archeology and...
Rob Chartrand (08:20.116)
More than a carpenter, was that his first one?
Rob Chartrand (08:28.575)
Evidence that demands a verdict.
Tim Barnett (08:36.946)
and science and I mean, you name it, for God and Christianity. So those would be the, I mean, so he's a big deal and Sean is a big deal and he's a Biola professor. He is a speaker, he's got a PhD. I mean, and so to have him say to the people at Santa Rosa, you should invite this Canadian. And they're probably thinking, who? You know, like you went and saw this guy once and you're-
Rob Chartrand (08:49.176)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (09:00.706)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (09:06.678)
But on that recommendation, they flew me to California to speak at their conference. There was 1,100 students, it was sold out. That church was, we had to move the next year because that church was sold out. So yeah, just, I feel like I've been riding a wave and just staying on, you know? God's doing a whole bunch of things and I'm just happy to partner with him.
Rob Chartrand (09:17.026)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (09:25.187)
Hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (09:29.823)
Yeah, so he was he was a bit of a Barnabas for you really. You're the crazy Paul and the Canadian the Canuck in the apologetics environment in the states and yeah. Why do you think churches should care about apologetics? I mean, you said this pastor would spend some time telling you maybe which isn't a good idea in our churches are not important. Why do you think it's important?
Tim Barnett (09:34.434)
Big time. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (09:41.779)
Yeah, that's right.
Tim Barnett (09:51.959)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (09:55.518)
Yeah, I mean, I would give four reasons. I think the Bible commands it, okay? That's, oh, that's important. The culture, yeah, that sounds, that's a good starting point. If the Bible says do this, then do it, okay? Simple. But more than that, the Bible commands it, the culture demands it, okay? I mean, you cannot do evangelism today without doing apologetics.
Rob Chartrand (10:01.575)
Okay. That sounds reasonable.
Rob Chartrand (10:08.427)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (10:15.768)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (10:22.934)
Because I mean, if we just were to go right now to York University and start, you know, handing out tracts or something, or just doing surveys, sometimes we'll do this. We've taken students to Berkeley and Utah, and we'll do these evangelism apologetic trips where we'll hand out surveys. First question, do you think God exists? And it starts the conversation. And as soon as you get into those conversations, people start asking questions. They wanna know not just why you believe, but why you believe the things you believe.
And that's, now you're doing apologetics. So if we were to go to York and say, Jesus is Lord, He's risen from the dead, they may ask questions like, wait a second, Jesus, you mean that guy in that book that's full of contradictions? And we're like, uh-oh, okay, now I'm doing apologetics about the Bible. Or they may say, wait, are you talking about that religion that sends people to hell? How could you believe in a loving God that sends someone to hell? Okay, now you're doing apologetics.
Or they may, out of left field, say, well, what about evolution? I mean, I've started a conversation about Jesus, and now all of a sudden evolution comes up, and I'm thinking, where did that come from? But these are what I call Gospicals, okay? Now, that is not a real word, so don't look it up. Yeah, a Gospical, okay? I guess it's made up, so you can say it anyway you want. But the point is, it's an obstacle to the Gospel.
Rob Chartrand (11:30.624)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (11:37.935)
Gobsticles or Gausticles?
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Tim Barnett (11:49.086)
Okay, there's all kinds of gospel obstacles out there. And our job as apologists is to remove, as best we can, those obstacles to the gospel, clear the path so people can see the cross, they can head to the cross. And it just seems like in our culture today, there's a lot of gospel obstacles out there. And we could like, you know, how can you say Jesus is the only way? Or, you know, hell, or the problem of evil, or, you know, the list goes on and on and on.
Rob Chartrand (11:56.919)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (12:19.446)
So you have these, so the culture demands it, the church needs it. Here's the next thing. It's not that our questions and doubts disappear when you enter the church or you become a Christian. In fact, sometimes they can get even more intense because now I believe in a loving God and a powerful God and an all-knowing God, but there's bad stuff happening to me. Okay, now I gotta wrestle with this. What's going on? So,
It's not just what Francis Schaeffer called pre-evangelism, that you gotta do pre-evangelism before you can do evangelism. I call it post-evangelism. So I'm already in, but I still got questions. So apologetics is not just pre-evangelism to the culture, it's post-evangelism to the church. And there's lots of people, I mean, you wanna talk about crisis in the church. This is the deconstruction movement.
And I think we could be answering a lot of what's going on in the deconstruction movement if we did a little bit more apologetics. Now apologetics, it's not like the band-aid that's gonna fix everything, okay? And that's because not everyone who deconstructs is doing it because of intellectual reasons, but there are some, and in which case we can offer those responses. And then finally, so the Bible commands it, the culture demands it, the church needs it.
Rob Chartrand (13:16.917)
Right.
Tim Barnett (13:46.558)
And then finally, the results confirm it. I mean, it just works. And we can see it, read Acts 17, you'll see what is Paul doing. He's reasoning with those in the synagogue and he's reasoning with those in the marketplace. And some get persuaded. And so it does work. And it's not just in Paul's day in the first century, it's today. There are people, there are friends of mine who now do what I do for a living.
like J. Warner Wallace, actually Josh McDowell we talked about earlier, it was apologetics that brought him in. And God used, again, I'm not downplaying the Holy Spirit's work here, but the Holy Spirit uses all kinds of means to accomplish his ends. And one of those is these arguments and evidence to convince people. Lee Strobel would be another big name. Lee Strobel kind of came kicking and screaming. He was investigating the...
Rob Chartrand (14:21.288)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (14:46.35)
the evidence for the resurrection, and that's what brought him in, C.S. Lewis. So there's all kinds of names we could trot out. And I think if people think carefully of their own spheres, they'll find, hey, yeah, there's some individuals in my own life who came to Christ through apologetics.
Rob Chartrand (15:02.667)
Yeah. Well, let me let me let me tease that a little bit more about, you know, the difference between apologetics and evangelism, because they're there. They go arm in arm, like they you can't have one or the other, but, but to be clear about the, the proclamation of the gospel versus the defense of the gospel or the defense of, you know, defense of many things beyond just the specific gospel, but how would you describe the difference between evangelism and apologetics?
Tim Barnett (15:09.453)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (15:33.13)
Yeah, I think they're two sides of the same coin. And so whereas evangelism extends that invitation to people, you have apologetics is going to kind of work alongside that to kind of offer up reasons why you should accept that invitation.
Good example might be if I were to pull a loaf of bread out of my backpack, you know, on a busy street corner or something and say, here guys, here's free bread. Well, some people might, if they're hungry enough, they might just take it. All right, no questions asked. That looks good, I'm taking it. Okay, fair enough. But there are other people like myself, I'm not just gonna take bread from a stranger, okay, on the street corner that was just pulled out of a backpack. I might ask questions like,
Who's the baker? Who made the bread? What's in it? Is that backpack clean? I'm gonna have all these kinds of questions that I'm gonna have. So I think that they work together. Like I said, you can't really do one without the other. Evangelism is presenting the gospel and apologetics is defending the gospel. And you'll see that Paul, he talks about...
a confirmation and defense or a proclamation and defense of the gospel. So for him, he, and you watch him, you know, as you read through the book of Acts, you see him kind of doing this. He's presenting the gospel all over the place, but he's also kind of giving that defense for it. Peter does the same thing.
Rob Chartrand (17:03.982)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (17:17.6)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (17:20.875)
Yeah, I teach a class on evangelism, discipleship right now in the college. And some of the students, I think at the beginning of the semester might have thought that if I can just do apologetics, I'm therefore doing evangelism, right? And I have to say them, well, no, not necessarily, because you can actually do apologetics and miss the gospel. So, you know, I think some of the classic
Tim Barnett (17:37.666)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (17:45.132)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (17:48.979)
arguments for theism, for example, the cosmological argument or teleological argument or the ontological argument, all of those, you can do those, and you could do them well. But there's nothing substantive in there about the, you know, the incarnation, the crucifixion, the resurrection, the, you know, the glorification of all of those things that are, you know, the essence of the gospel. Now do them together, right? Absolutely. They're both necessary. But don't, don't assume that just because you're doing, you know, apologetics, you're necessarily doing evangelism.
Tim Barnett (17:52.674)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (17:56.386)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (18:08.275)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (18:16.238)
Mm-hmm.
This is a really good point because I think even in the world that I traffic with these apologists, you have people who can get tunnel vision and they think that one is the other. And so, hey, me getting into an argument on social media about the Kalam cosmological argument or the moral or whatever, a certain kind of argument for God's existence is the end in itself. No, the end of
isn't just to win an argument or prove to someone that even God exists, right? The end is to go further than that. We want to show you who that God is. So now here's the thing. My own conviction is that I don't have to be the evangelist in every single conversation I'm in. The approach I take, and I get it from my boss, actually, Greg Kockel. He wrote a book called
Rob Chartrand (18:59.128)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (19:09.792)
Right, yeah.
Tim Barnett (19:17.458)
And his goal is to put a stone in someone's shoe. So if I got 30 seconds at the bus stop or something, or maybe five minutes at the bus stop is more realistic. I don't have it as my goal to get that person to bend the knee to Christ at that moment. In fact, if that was my goal, it would be too heavy a burden. I probably would never even get started. You had ended up with an awkward conversation like, hey, did you see the Leaf game last night?
Rob Chartrand (19:36.701)
Yeah.
No.
Tim Barnett (19:45.75)
wow, the goal he was making this save and that save, that reminds me of how Jesus has saved you from your sins. You know, like, how do you get, how do you get there from hockey to Jesus, okay? But maybe my goal is more modest. Maybe I'm talking to this person and they don't believe that truth is even a thing. Like, objective truth doesn't exist. Well, if I can just get you thinking about truth for a minute, maybe our conversation ends.
Rob Chartrand (19:51.055)
I'm sorry.
Tim Barnett (20:14.598)
And that's just a stone in your shoe. And you're kind of walking away annoyed, but in a good way, because I've got you thinking about maybe this idea of truth being out there. And maybe the next person puts another stone. And then, and by the way, this is how it works. Very rarely, I think especially in our culture today, are you gonna see people like in the Billy Graham days, where people just go to that, you know, the conference and you have.
Rob Chartrand (20:25.323)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (20:43.03)
thousands of people just come forward. I think those days are maybe behind us because that culture had so much groundwork that was already done, so much common ground where they believe that the Bible was trustworthy and good. They believe that there was such a thing as like sin. There's a God out there and yeah, I fall short. In our culture today, where moral relativism reigns,
Rob Chartrand (20:55.235)
Sure. Yep.
Tim Barnett (21:12.45)
There's no good and no evil. I decide what's right and wrong for me. So to just even say that someone is a sinner, like the bad news, well, that doesn't even compute. What do you mean? It's like I'm insulting them, right? Because how dare you say I'm, I believe I'm a good person. So that's, so I think what apologetic can do there is kind of lay that groundwork.
so that when the time is right, the fruit is ripe, it just falls off the tree. Someone does evangelism and it's like, boom, that was easy. Well, there was probably a lot of gardening and tilling and watering and all that stuff that gets the harvest ready so that the harvester comes along and just, boop, there's the fruit, no problem.
Rob Chartrand (21:51.151)
Sure. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (22:00.971)
Yeah, and you know, and we teach the same with evangelism because most of the techniques that people have been taught with salvation plans is to get people to the line, is to get people across the line. So it's all about persuasion rather than proclamation. And I think some of our listeners might be familiar with Engel's book written back in like the, I don't know if it was the 70s, but it's What's Gone Wrong with the Harvest. And his contention was that with the church growth movement, it's all about
Tim Barnett (22:16.947)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (22:30.991)
persuasion, but people are being persuaded to believe in a gospel that they haven't actually heard. And so they're persuaded and they make these decisions, but they really don't understand the gospel. And he's saying, okay, let's back up the bus. And you need to work hard at proclaiming the gospel to a culture so that they understand it again. Because largely, as you said, I mean, we're post-Christian, post-Christendom, this general understanding that's in our culture today. That
Tim Barnett (22:32.604)
Mmm.
Tim Barnett (22:42.196)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (22:58.071)
know, the Bible is true, and Jesus is the Son of God and all that, that doesn't exist anymore. And not only that, it's not that it's not that, you know, the angle scale would say, you know, you people go from a negative point to a zero, and then to a positive point, and the zero is the point of conversion, and you want to get them from a minus 10 to zero. Like, Christianity is in a deficit position in our culture, like, because of scandals of the church and what's gone on. So, I mean, you're working against the wind, you're fighting against the grain of the wood.
Tim Barnett (23:03.844)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (23:19.541)
Mm-hmm.
You're right.
Rob Chartrand (23:26.759)
and you're gonna get splinters as you're proclaiming the gospel in our context today. So yeah, like people are in like a, we say that you might be just one link in a chain in a person's life towards the gospel and there are many links in that chain and so you don't have to try and persuade them in this moment to make a decision. It might just be sowing a seed or like you know, as you would say having one clear little pebble in somebody's shoe and that's okay. Like you're sowing seeds, you're sowing seeds.
Tim Barnett (23:41.004)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (23:44.642)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (23:49.756)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (23:55.531)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (23:56.555)
Um, but you might be the person at the end of the chain, like you might get that opportunity to do that persuasive moment, but don't assume that you have to.
Tim Barnett (23:59.902)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (24:05.726)
Yeah, be a gardener when gardening needs to be done, and be a harvester when that time comes too. You know, John chapter four talks about reapers and sowers, gardeners and harvesters. And what's cool is, you know, the woman goes, and she is actually doing a lot of the work, and Jesus turns to his disciples and says, look, the fields are white for harvest. You are going to reap where you didn't sow.
Rob Chartrand (24:19.822)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (24:34.826)
you're going to harvest where you didn't garden. But then it says something cool. It says that the reapers and sowers, they rejoice together. So it's like, we're all on the same team. And there's gonna be people who are listening to this podcast and they don't feel like they're the harvester. They're not the Billy Graham or the Ray Comfort. So there's some really talented evangelists out there that have that gifting. They may just be at work.
Day in and day out, they work with people who are secular, they're non-believers, and they're just doing gardening. They're doing some gardening here and there and ever. And it may be years down the road before that fruit is ripe, or maybe it never becomes ripe. We just don't know, God knows. But be faithful with the opportunities that you have. Be a gardener in that situation and see what happens.
Rob Chartrand (25:27.115)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (25:32.131)
Well, you know, in recent years, there have been a lot of shifts in apologetics. I mean, I think some of our listeners can think back to just a decade ago, where we saw the rise of the new atheists, the four horsemen, you know, like Christopher Hitchens and whatnot. And that was all blown up in the media hugely. But even that has kind of, and they call it new, but it's they're not new. They're just.
Tim Barnett (25:47.286)
Hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (25:59.651)
Digging up old arguments again and bring them to the forefront. But now there is like a new apologetics as necessary. That's even swallowed up old apologetics on the atheist side. There's been a lot of shifts going on. So why don't you talk about that? What is the new face of apologetics look like?
Tim Barnett (26:02.067)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (26:10.498)
Hmm. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (26:17.302)
This is a good question because you're right. The arguments that were used 10 years ago are just not being used. The new atheist, by the way, what was new wasn't the arguments, it was the attitude. These guys were coming out saying, religion poisons everything. It's bad news. And this was in the aftermath of 9-11 and so they were able to leverage some of that.
Rob Chartrand (26:35.841)
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Barnett (26:44.378)
And what's fascinating is a lot of those individuals are seeing the, maybe not the error of the ways, but they're definitely changing their approach. I just saw, man, it was like last week, Richard Dawkins calling himself a cultural Christian. And actually, I mean, it was just fascinating that, I mean, this is the same Richard Dawkins who was talking, who wrote the God Delusion. And basically, if you believe in God, you're delusional. So it's just fascinating that
Rob Chartrand (27:08.043)
Yeah, yeah, I read it, yeah.
Tim Barnett (27:13.538)
The winds have changed, and I think some of these individuals are seeing that a culture that is divorced from its Christian foundation, this is not heading in the right direction. This is like, we're like a cut flower. No more roots. It looked great for a while, but now it's starting to wilt. And without the roots, this thing's going to die. And so you could see how a guy like Dawkins is...
man, I like the cathedrals. I like to sing the songs at Christmas. I like the general morality that is out there amongst Christian culture. And in fact, he's warning about other religions that he thinks are rising up, especially where he's at. But I think that it has changed. It used to be a decade ago, William Lane Craig was doing the circuit arguing for God's existence.
Rob Chartrand (27:51.33)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (27:57.472)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (28:07.67)
And it was like, you know, every few weeks there was another debate over God's existence. I actually think it's changed from the question of, is God real to is God good? And if you go on social media, spend a lot of time on there because of red pen logic, there is a ton of videos being posted by people challenging the goodness of God. And how are they doing that? They're going to the Old Testament and they're
Rob Chartrand (28:19.658)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (28:36.898)
pulling out verses that frankly, they probably, again, I'm just speculating here, because there's a lot of Christians who haven't read the Bible, let alone non-Christians. But there's people who just Google these verses and up they pop, you know? And they don't know the context, they don't know even necessarily what the book is, what the book's about that they're reading, but just here is a single verse and it makes God sound.
whatever, evil or that he's condoning slavery or that he's condoning X, Y, and Z. And so what we have to do as apologists is we're trying to argue not for God's existence but for the goodness of God. Hey, this is a good and loving God. And so I think that there's different arguments that come up at different times in history. And it just seems like right now,
the big one is God's goodness. Actually, I think cults are kind of making a comeback too, to be honest, especially like, well, there's the cults and then there's like this kind of new age spirituality. A lot of people identifying as non-religious but spiritual. So what does that mean? And adopting kind of a new age worldview. And I think that
Rob Chartrand (29:37.92)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (30:01.699)
Kind of like pantheistic, you mean? Okay.
Tim Barnett (30:03.266)
you got, yeah, like a pantheistic avatar, this kind of worldview. And it's a worldview that kind of has the spiritual trappings, but doesn't have a moral law giver. That's right, no accountability. So the universe doesn't hold you accountable. Now, I mean, some might say, well, there's karma and there's whatever.
Rob Chartrand (30:21.023)
Yeah, doesn't require anything of you, but gives you everything. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (30:33.638)
But, you know, I guess I'll pay for that in my next life or something. But it's, there isn't like a person who's holding me accountable and responsible for the things and certainly no standard outside of myself. I determine at the end of the day, what that standard is going to be. And if I say this is right and good and true, then it's right and good and true. And how dare anyone say differently. So I think that that's a worldview that's taking off.
Rob Chartrand (30:56.14)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (31:02.751)
or we're seeing a lot of popularity, at least in the West. So it's a different world out there. It's a strange new world.
Rob Chartrand (31:12.215)
So with the rise of say expressive individualism in our cultural context, would you say also that critical theories are a new apologetic, a new realm of apologetic you're seeing? Or is that still pretty remote?
Tim Barnett (31:28.766)
It is, critical theory is definitely a worldview that is influencing a lot of how people think. And they may not even know the terminology, but they certainly are, it's the water, it's like fish swimming in water and not knowing they're wet, right? And so there are worldviews, there are philosophies that have influenced us and we can't help it unless we really push back and think critically. And this is why it's so important.
Rob Chartrand (31:37.561)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (31:58.07)
That's why we do the Red Pen Logic videos, to think critically. Let's just assess for a minute what worldview is going on here. When they say this thing, make this claim, well, what's underneath it? What's behind it? When someone says that there is no truth, what does that mean? How do we respond to it? I think that we can see that even with the critical theory and putting everything in terms of, well, here's the oppressors.
And here's the oppressed. And of course, what we need to do, truth isn't even in view, it's about power. Okay, so any time of claim, by the way, I'm seeing this all over TikTok and Instagram, the challenges from deconstructors saying, look at, hell is a toxic doctrine. Well, why is it a toxic doctrine? They don't look at whether it's true or false.
Rob Chartrand (32:35.648)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (32:54.718)
Okay, they immediately go to, well, you're using that. See, here's what's going on. Those white evangelicals are using hell as a power play to scare people into believing X, Y, and Z, into following them. That's right. Whereas what we would say is, well, by the way, C.S. Lewis called this vulvarism. And he basically said, this is where you,
Rob Chartrand (32:55.008)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (33:08.875)
Yeah, it's about power and control and yeah.
Tim Barnett (33:24.258)
bypass the truth question and go directly to a motivation kind of question. Oh, here's why you say that. You're just saying that because you want power. The whole lot of second, maybe I'm saying it because it's true, right? Like I could tell my kids not just take a knife and stick it into the electrical socket. Okay. Now, someone, a critical theorist could say, oh, there, there's just another straight white man.
Rob Chartrand (33:31.481)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (33:52.822)
you know, flexing his power over these kids. And that's not what's going on at all. There really is a thing called electricity and I'm trying to protect these kids from this danger. And so I'm telling them about this, not to do this thing. So it's a warning. And I think that before you can start assessing someone's motivations and whether it's all about power, you have to look at what's true. But here's the problem. This whole critical theory, it's based off of
Rob Chartrand (33:52.911)
Sure.
Tim Barnett (34:22.69)
the work of postmodern philosophers like Foucault, and we could talk about Derrida and some others. They didn't see truth as part of the package because there was no objective truth and it certainly wasn't knowable. So bypass the truth question and go right to the power question. Okay, who is trying to control who? That's the question. Oh, it's always gotta be the oppressed that's being controlled by the oppressors.
Rob Chartrand (34:26.06)
Right. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (34:51.914)
And so we got to upset this thing. And that's why, man, you just go through all the doctrines that are being attacked right now. And they're not being attacked necessarily on their truth. They're being attacked on this other critical theory ground. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (35:07.139)
So I mean, that's the difficulty with apologetics with critical theory is, is it's totalizing effect. It's everything is about power. So not some things about power. And I can agree with that. Like some things are about power. There's Yeah, sure. There are systemat systemic, you know, problems that are in, you know, in pervasive in culture and institutions, etc. And, and, and yes, people do have nefarious motives sometimes, but
Tim Barnett (35:15.851)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (35:32.626)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (35:33.507)
for them, there's a there's a fundamentalism to it. And some would even say it's a new form of religion. So you can't get around it. Like, how do you reason around that with when it is it's totalizing, everything is about power, everything is about language. And, and it's, and it's, it's like the argument where I say to you, you're being defensive, and you say, Oh, no, I'm not. I'm say, See, yes, you're being defensive. And it just
Tim Barnett (35:39.924)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (36:00.475)
circles back and circles back and how do you get around that? You know, and for them, it's like, Oh, no, it's about power and your use of language and you're, and you can't get out of it, you feel trapped by this assumption of that. So how would how would you get around that?
Tim Barnett (36:03.506)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (36:08.77)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (36:16.33)
Well, I think this is where we have to understand the limitations sometimes of an argument. If you don't believe truth exists, then for me to argue, well, here's a whole bunch of reasons why Christianity is true. Well, we're talking past each other. We're ships passing in the night kind of thing. What I would do is try to show the inconsistency of your worldview.
Rob Chartrand (36:22.295)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (36:42.807)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (36:44.406)
This is, I think, the best approach when you meet someone who has a worldview that's so foreign and you just can't seem to be connecting. Let me show you the inconsistency, or maybe even like when it comes to relativism. When they say there is no truth, if you were to ask them, well, is that true? Do you believe that relativism is true? Well, they're gonna be kind of caught because if they say yes, that's right. They're gonna, it-
Rob Chartrand (37:08.119)
Yeah, the circular argument. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (37:12.802)
it's sitting on a branch and then sawing it off at the same time. You know what I'm saying? So I think there's something analogous to this whole critical theory discussion. You could talk about the fact that, isn't it truth that really matters? At the end of the day, if the roles were reversed, would that somehow make this a...
Tim Barnett (37:45.594)
Let me say this again. If you have the oppress and the oppressy and they somehow get reversed, okay? Does that somehow, yeah, which is the goal, but all of a sudden now you have to reverse it again. You know what I'm saying? This thing never ends. And so a white person can be racist, but what they would argue is a black person can't be racist. Well, why not? Because they're being...
Rob Chartrand (37:53.635)
Which is the goal, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (38:02.852)
That's right.
Tim Barnett (38:11.946)
oppressed and you can't be racist towards someone when you're the oppressor kind of thing. Well, what happens when the rules reverse? Okay, now that's racism again. Hold on a second. Do you see the inconsistency? That might be one approach is just point out when it's not lining up.
Rob Chartrand (38:18.969)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (38:32.685)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and I think postmodernism at its root has an aversion to meta narratives. So, so big stories, right. And that's what was its reaction against modernism was reacting to this, you know, universal law and universal understanding of how the world works, and they reacted against that. But there's a circularity there in the sense that they have created and constructed a meta narrative.
Tim Barnett (38:42.912)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (38:46.065)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (38:58.164)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (39:03.854)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (39:03.935)
Right. And so you have an aversion to meta narratives and yet you live in one all the time. And so it's yeah, it's definitely a challenge. But yeah, so it's a whole new world of apologetics that we have to. And the challenge is, is there it comes with a whole new language set. And so there's new words being created all the time, which is part of the strategy of critical theory is to create new frames.
Tim Barnett (39:08.634)
Yeah, you can't escape it.
Tim Barnett (39:24.429)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (39:33.879)
Because if you all if you if you they understand very well, if you control the language, you are powerful, you have power. And so one of the tactics is well, let's create new language. And that allows you therefore to To to gain power for the sake of the oppressed. I mean, that's, that's the motivation behind it. Yeah. So Is arguing and debating
Tim Barnett (39:41.939)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (39:52.85)
Yeah, it's a goal. Yeah, that's right.
Rob Chartrand (40:01.035)
a bad thing. I mean there are some who would say you know these guys they get on I get online I listen to them and they can seem pretty aggressive these Christian apologists are pretty repugnant and I mean you just spend some time in Twitter and Twitterverse and it is a dumpster fire sometimes. What would you say to people who would say no you should just avoid on your line arguing altogether?
Tim Barnett (40:06.85)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (40:16.789)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (40:23.942)
Well, to be honest, I do avoid quite a bit of the online argument that goes on there. I say it's a young man's game, you know? And I used to be, partly because I used to be a young man, I mean, I guess I'm 40 now, I don't know, is that still young? But when I was a lot younger, I loved to argue. And my motivations were not always pure, and I liked winning, and I would...
Rob Chartrand (40:49.144)
Right.
Tim Barnett (40:53.054)
you know, spend hours, I still have like these word documents where I would write out pages in response to someone's like social media posts or Facebook post, and have it all worked out and then boom, you just like drop it, you know, and these things, these things would go on forever, right back, forth, back forth. And I don't know how productive they were. Now, I don't want to, I don't want to tell anyone not to try to be persuasive online.
but I think you got to understand, you know, when it adds value and when it doesn't. And it's really important to check your own heart in the process. Like, am I doing this because I want to show everyone who's going to read this that I am so smart and I just destroyed this person in an argument? If that's why you're doing it, then just, you know, close down social media.
Rob Chartrand (41:22.349)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (41:44.913)
Mm.
Tim Barnett (41:50.994)
and go read your Bible or something. Cause that's not why we do this. So I think that there is a time and a place Paul certainly used arguments. And we talked about this, he would debate with people. And so we can follow Paul's advice. My advice is always face to face is better than online. Because there's a sense in which you assume so much about what's in...
these words on a page, right? And so I assume the tone, I assume their motivation, their assumptions, all these stuff where when I see someone's face, I can gauge better where they're coming from and ask them follow-up questions kind of in real time. And I think that's a better approach. I think you actually get somewhere with someone. I think a lot of us have
Rob Chartrand (42:22.703)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (42:38.783)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (42:51.15)
what I would call keyboard courage. When we're behind our computer, we will say things, we'll type things that we would never say to someone's face. And that's because it's easier. It's just a screen and I can just send. So my advice would be if you have any hesitations about posting something, like a comment or some argument.
Rob Chartrand (42:54.059)
Right. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (43:20.762)
I would ask someone who you take to be a wise counsel who has discernment and say, hey, what do you think about this? And there are plenty of things. I mean, I'm still learning, okay? I'm still learning this. Partly, I just don't have time to engage in all this stuff. We have so many followers now on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. It's hard to keep up with all the stuff going on. So that's part of it. But the other thing is just growing in wisdom and knowing when am I...
when am I casting my pearls before swine? Or when is this gonna be, you know, turning into something productive? Because there are people that have been convinced because of something that was said on social media. That does happen. I think it's rare though. I think most of us are guarding turf, you know, and just trying to win.
Rob Chartrand (44:06.091)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (44:12.619)
Yeah. Do you think there's some personalities that just probably should avoid social media altogether just because of what it's turning them into when they get on it?
Tim Barnett (44:25.818)
Oh yeah, big time, big time. If you, I mean, and again, this is a little introspection, like try to gauge your own heart on this. How do I, how do I come across when I post stuff on social media? How do I feel when I read these things and maybe even ask someone you're close to, you know, maybe it's a spouse or a sibling or a parent or something. Hey, when you read my stuff, does it come across as like I'm like starting to...
stir up trouble, cause dissension. I mean, there's lots of people who are just trying to be provocative for likes and clicks and whatever. And again, that shouldn't be our spirit. We should be people of peace, peacemakers. And then when the time comes and someone challenges, offer a response, but do so in a very gentle and respectful way.
Rob Chartrand (45:06.541)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (45:24.738)
I mean, this is kind of the first Peter 3.15, right? Always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks for the reason, for the hope that's in you. And then it says, and do this with gentleness and respect. So that's a, I mean, it's almost like Peter knew when you go to give an answer, you're gonna need this reminder. When you go to give that answer of the hope that's within you, do this with gentleness and respect. I like in Colossians.
Rob Chartrand (45:30.943)
Yes. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (45:36.472)
Yeah, do that in respect. Exactly.
Tim Barnett (45:53.534)
chapter four, verses five and six says, walk in wisdom towards outsiders, making the best use of your time. And that says, let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt. So you'll know how you ought to answer each person. Now that whole like, you know, let your speech be gracious and seasoned with salt, that is like, you know, salt makes everything taste better. I want people when they're in conversation with me, like they feel the graciousness.
Rob Chartrand (45:58.372)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (46:03.267)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (46:21.886)
and the saltiness of my engagement. I don't guess salty means something different in our culture, like the Gen Z culture, but I mean salty like McDonald's fries taste amazing because they're layered with salt, that kind of thing. And by the way, if you read Acts 17, Paul does that. When he is talking in the marketplace, he says to those people, I see that in every way you are very religious.
Rob Chartrand (46:29.707)
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Barnett (46:49.078)
This is a whole bunch of idolaters, okay? Like thousands of idols, these people are idol worshipers and he calls them, I see that in every way, you're very religious. And he calls them objects of worship. That is letting your speech be gracious because he could have just said, those are all idols. He says objects, I mean, so you could feel the, I'm trying to talk to you guys in a way that will be receptive. And that's how we should talk, whether it's in person or online.
Rob Chartrand (47:04.098)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (47:19.295)
Yeah, it's very invitational. Um, I, there's a book, uh, I was just looking it up here, um, that I read back in the day, Jaron Lanier, uh, 10 arguments for deleting all your social media accounts. Now, um, I don't know if this guy is like one of the founders of virtual reality and he was like one of the forerunners who helped basically invent the internet, like, uh, and he's, he's telling everybody, get off social media and.
Tim Barnett (47:33.246)
Oh.
Tim Barnett (47:42.432)
Wow.
Rob Chartrand (47:46.159)
His, I think his argument like seven or something like that in the book, he says, because, because social media is turning me into an a-hole. That's what he said. Like it just, I get on there and I just like, yeah, keyboard courage, just like you talk about, right? And so.
Tim Barnett (47:53.107)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (47:57.374)
Yeah. So it turns you into, it can turn you into a jerk. It can also, when I spent a year researching for our book, The Deconstruction of Christianity, and this was like going into, I followed all the deconstruction profiles on social media, was watching their videos. I would go into my office in a good mood and leave, like just bummed out. Like seeing...
Rob Chartrand (48:25.004)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (48:26.17)
challenge after challenge after challenge, mocking after mocking after ridicule. I mean, it just, it was hard to take. And actually, I don't think we're built. I don't think God made us to endure the kinds of things that we now have access to. If you think about it, like I can get, I can post a video and it could get, I mean, some of the videos on Facebook have millions of views. And,
Rob Chartrand (48:39.502)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (48:55.137)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (48:55.938)
those videos get tons of comments, like tens of thousands of comments. And some of those people will message me directly because I manage all the Red Pen Logic accounts. And so I'm getting, I could get like this week, I could get a hundred or so direct messages and half of those could be, I hope you die. I hope that this happens. I mean, just like the amount of vitriol and trolling animosity.
Rob Chartrand (49:20.009)
Wow.
Rob Chartrand (49:23.661)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (49:25.906)
It is, I mean, it is insane what people will say to complete strangers because they don't share my view on something. And of course I make videos on things like to do with sexuality and gender. And so that kind of opens me up to a lot of, you know, hate from the other side. And I've learned that like, it is not, we're not designed to take that kind of, that kind of abuse.
I could get 100 encouragement, but one discouraging thing, like if you've ever given a sermon, pastors who are listening, I've given sermons and people be like, wow, that was great, I really appreciate that. And the one guy comes up to you and says, man, here's what was wrong with that, I disagree with this, you almost put me to sleep, whatever. And I've had people who have no filter tell me some pretty awful things about my sermon. And I think about that the rest of the week.
Rob Chartrand (50:00.239)
Sure. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (50:13.607)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (50:22.926)
because that's just, I think, the way we are wired. And so imagine, multiply that by a thousand, you know? We're just not designed for that. So unplug, absolutely. Interact with real people, like face to face. That's what we were made for. That kind of relationship, not this virtual thing.
Rob Chartrand (50:37.911)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (50:44.527)
So how in your mind then do you think pastors might use apologetics in their ministries or in their churches? Let's get practical here.
Tim Barnett (50:53.079)
Hmm. Yeah. I, you have to understand, and I know they do, that there are people in their congregation that have a lot of questions. And so my recommendation would be just keep it easy, make room for asking questions and expressing doubts. So maybe it's just a Q and A time, midweek, or maybe, you know, Tim Keller after service.
Rob Chartrand (51:02.627)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (51:19.83)
he would do a 40, 45 minute Q&A. And this was every Sunday, you know? And so you could ask questions about the message. You could ask questions about anything. And he wrote a book, The Reason for God, yeah. And it came out of that. He was answering those questions over and over and over again. The questions about hell, or Jesus being the only way, or problem of evil. These kinds of questions came up all the time.
Rob Chartrand (51:23.328)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (51:34.848)
Reason for God.
Tim Barnett (51:49.162)
And so he put that into a book. So, and look at you, you don't have to have all the answers. It's okay to say, you know what, let me get back to you. Maybe just have a question box. You could literally just have a box outside your office. Anonymously drop your question there and I'll just take one, maybe one a week. We answer one of these, use pastors, for sure need to be doing this because students have questions. Even if you ask them.
Do you have any questions and no one puts their hands up? I guarantee you they all have deep questions. They just are maybe too afraid to, or too awkward to ask. Put a box out there, drop a piece of paper next to it, stack of papers next to it, any questions. And I guarantee you that things will fill up. And just be prepared though, because there are gonna be questions about sexuality and gender and hell and all kinds of stuff that are hard to...
to deal with. And then, but when the pressure's off, you can look up, you know, on YouTube or read a book or whatever to equip yourself. Because you don't have to know everything. I'm a professional apologist and I recognize there's lots of stuff I don't know, you know? And so I'm going to, I'm reading up on, you know, going to these other scholars, even actually before we started recording, I was reading a book by Bill Mounts, you know, the great, you know...
Rob Chartrand (52:58.336)
Yeah, that's important.
Tim Barnett (53:14.87)
Bible translator, and I've got some questions about some things and making a video. And so, you know, go to the experts, go to the source. So that would be my recommendation. I think that the church is gonna continue to have an exodus of people, especially young people, if we don't start answering some of those questions and doubts, if that's what the research says. This is not my hunch. This is...
Rob Chartrand (53:23.663)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (53:43.462)
study after study after study. Doubt is not the problem. It's unexpressed doubt that's the problem. It's doubts in the face of silence. Like a lot of these students and concretes just don't think there's a place for questions in the Christian faith. Because think about it, you show up at church, you sing your three songs, you got the announcements.
Rob Chartrand (53:49.92)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (54:09.286)
and you got the sermon, 30 minute, 40 minute sermon, and then you pass the bucket, you know, you do all those things, the benediction, people go home. Where's the Q&A? It's just like, I learn from you and then I leave. But we need to, if you teach something, you better believe that people are gonna ask a wonder and ask questions. And so that would be my, and then of course you can invite, you know, people like me.
Rob Chartrand (54:37.463)
Invite an apologist.
Tim Barnett (54:38.606)
to come in. So do like a conference or something. Then the pressure's totally off. Get some volunteers and say, hey, here's what I want you to do. Organize this conference. And then people will show up who have questions and then we'll take care of it. So that's what we're there for. And so again, we're not trying to add an extra burden onto the pastor. That's the last thing. We know pastors are already overworked. So.
this apologetics thing isn't supposed to be like this extra thing that you now have to do. No, you outsource it. I'm happy to take that on.
Rob Chartrand (55:16.459)
Yeah, well, let's talk about it in a minute. I want to point out something in pastors preaching, I think that I found really helpful. So I did Tim Keller's training Redeemer City to City. So it's the church planning training and whatnot. And one of the things that Keller does is he's always anticipating questions of his audience. And so he just he's just a master at this. But if he's doing it, say an expository message on
something from the Gospels, for example, he is going to try and anticipate what are some of the questions that the skeptics in the crowd will have. And his goal in the message isn't to, it's to do an exposition of the text, that's what it is, and to point to the gospel. But along the way, there might be these Gosp's tickles in people's way as they're listening. So he will do what he would call an apologetic sidebar. So he'll just say, you know what, maybe you're here this morning.
Tim Barnett (56:05.739)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (56:15.139)
And you're you have a question about these demonic pigs, and you're like, demons, what's that all about? You know, how can I believe in that, you know, and, and so let me just take a moment to just address that. You know, do you do you believe in God? Maybe you do? Yeah, you do. Okay. And God is a spiritual being. Is it possible that there could be nefarious spiritual beings out there? I mean, you it's not is it a big jump to say there's a good God, but there's also evil spirits? Okay, well, you know, and then
Tim Barnett (56:23.617)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (56:43.051)
You know, so he leads them there and he doesn't spend a lot of time doing it. But just by having that openness to say, it's okay to have these doubts and to have these questions, you know, and then to say, Hey, if you got questions, I'd love to sit down with you and talk to you about that. Right. And even that because I think a lot of preachers will just say, No, I just preach the Bible, just the text and you know, and that but then you're not
Tim Barnett (56:52.215)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (57:00.299)
Yep.
Rob Chartrand (57:09.419)
thinking about your listeners. And I think Act 17, Paul was very much thoughtful about his listeners. And, and I think it's important to do that. So I would always put that in practice in, in our church plant. And I did find that was the skeptics felt welcome, then they felt that it was okay to be there in the midst and, and it's okay to have that wrestle with a number of the questions that they had. So, yeah, I just, I just thought, yeah, good on you, killer.
Tim Barnett (57:11.103)
Mm.
Tim Barnett (57:15.882)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (57:27.908)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (57:35.394)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (57:39.391)
like this guy's a master at creating an environment where the word of God is still proclaimed but also there's a welcome an invitation for people to just you know it's okay to sit and then ask questions and then just come a little bit closer and then just come a little bit closer over time
Tim Barnett (57:39.725)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (58:00.034)
Yeah, I think that pastors who, this is one thing our pastor does really well at Cedarview Community Church. In fact, he did it this Sunday. He was preaching on John chapter nine. And this is, did this man sin or was his parents sin that he was born blind? And he started the message by asking questions about evil and suffering and what is the cause of the evil and suffering? And this is kind of what
Rob Chartrand (58:10.98)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (58:16.78)
Right. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (58:27.862)
they were wrestling with. Here's a guy who's blind, he's been blind from birth. Okay, now who's responsible, right? And like right away, now I'm at the edge of my seat because I'm thinking, yeah, who is responsible? I wanna know, okay. And they thought this, they were saying it had to be one of these two choices. And where'd that come from? Well, because they had these Old Testament ideas that this, you know, and so he was able to kind of frame it with a couple of questions, that was the hook. And now I'm ready to listen.
Rob Chartrand (58:29.4)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (58:35.256)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (58:57.214)
You know, so we, and I think this is a really helpful way to preach because here's our question and we're going to answer that in the next 30 minutes. It's a good idea.
Rob Chartrand (59:05.631)
Yeah. I think pastors could do an apologetics teaching series as well if they know their stuff, like if you do the work, like if you really spend time in that world. We did a series called skeptics welcome, and we addressed, you know, I think we did six, seven week run on it. But that was a super helpful series for our church. Now, I wouldn't recommend doing it all the time. Because I mean, you do need just the preaching of the word. But I mean, sometimes to take the time.
Tim Barnett (59:12.576)
Mmm. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (59:29.013)
Mm-hmm.
preach the word.
Rob Chartrand (59:33.987)
and address it and you can do it expositionally. I mean, there's ways to do it well. But I think that again, it creates this environment in your church where you can say, yeah, we recognize your wrestling with some of these things, especially with the emerging gen, right, the nuns and the duns.
Tim Barnett (59:37.856)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (59:50.926)
Hmm. Yeah. No, I think they need this. Like I said, the church needs it. It's not just the culture there, it's in our four walls. And when are we going to wake up? I think we've had a season of anti-intellectualism that kind of has kind of worked itself in to the church, at least to many churches. There's lots of great churches out there, so I'm not trying to beat up on the church or something. But
Rob Chartrand (01:00:08.441)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (01:00:18.942)
we need to really push back against that. Christianity has such a rich intellectual tradition, right? I mean, it was the Christians who brought the university, so we're not afraid of learning and growing. And so we ought to kind of bring that back. Hey, and I love what my pastor says, this is gonna be a tough text we're gonna get through, but we don't shy away from the tough stuff. Like, let's like, okay, everyone sit up straight, let's go.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:44.738)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:00:48.546)
And I actually think young people especially, they will rise to meet the challenge, right? Raise the bar. Forget, I mean, pizza parties and laser tag and mini putt and all that stuff is fun. I grew up doing all that stuff. But what I wish I had gotten was just solid Christian education. And let's just, okay, we're not playing basketball this Friday. We're actually gonna like wrestle with.
Rob Chartrand (01:00:56.302)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:10.788)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (01:01:16.618)
this theological question. And we just never did that growing up. So, and that kind of motivates me, by the way. I don't want people to grow up like I did, because I grew up in the church, and it was a loving church. I talk about this in my book. These people were the hands and feet of Jesus. So I got nothing against the church because of that great experience. But what I was not taught was theology.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:18.957)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:22.418)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:26.209)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:35.785)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:01:43.116)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (01:01:43.194)
And so it was very superficial, very child, I was living on milk, you know? And that was it until I started getting peppered with questions from my university friends. And they were smart, man, these were science guys and gals. And they were like, Tim, you know, why do you believe this stuff? Why do you go to church still? And I had no good response.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:09.507)
Hmm. So let's get back to that Canadian question. I know you love Canada, you love the Canadian church, you chose to stay in Canada. apologetics is booming south of the border. It's bumpin. But here in Canada, not as much. Any reason why you think that is so
Tim Barnett (01:02:20.91)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:02:30.558)
Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe because as Canadians, we're nice and we keep our heads down and we avoid confrontation. I mean, I do too. I mean, it's so funny that I do what I do for a living because my nature isn't to like just start a fight. I'd rather back away from a fight to be honest. That's what I wanna do. That's what feels better. And maybe because we do that, we don't see the need.
Rob Chartrand (01:02:39.076)
Right?
Tim Barnett (01:02:59.738)
We're not, we don't feel like we're on the front line. Cause when you're, when your backs against the wall, you're wishing for training, right? And that's why, by the way, when we go to churches, I started doing what I call an atheist role play. And I get introduced, I put on some fake glasses and I get introduced as a professor, philosophy professor from York university. And I give a 20 minute lecture with PowerPoint and everything on why.
belief in God is foolishness and why Christianity is incoherent. And I attack the Trinity and the incarnation. And I talk about how science has made belief in God impossible, I attack miracles, the Bible I try to point out contradictions. I mean, I do all, I just like, in 20 minutes, I give like seven or eight arguments. And I make the students feel like, gulp, like, what do I do? How do I get out of here?
Rob Chartrand (01:03:30.604)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:03:49.976)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (01:03:56.002)
but you better believe at that moment, they are ready to learn something, right? Like, okay, wait a second, because I reveal, okay, I'm a Christian. And you go from cutting the tension with a knife to just relief and cheering, like, okay, let's, he's a Christian, he's not an atheist, okay, what gives? How do you respond to these arguments? And I think-
Rob Chartrand (01:04:00.075)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:04:23.295)
So are there kids like walking out halfway through your presentation? Like, I didn't sign up for this. This is not what I wanted.
Tim Barnett (01:04:28.15)
I, okay, so this has happened. I was in Vancouver and it was a conference. I got invited by this pastor and, but they had invited a whole bunch of youth groups. So they didn't tell everybody. And this one guy, actually it was a, it was like a parent leader stood up and yelled at me in the middle of my thing. He said, everything you're saying isn't true. Like talk about.
Rob Chartrand (01:04:31.599)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Rob Chartrand (01:04:44.129)
Okay.
Tim Barnett (01:04:56.602)
And then he got his, it wasn't a big group, maybe 10 students, and they started going for the door. And this was maybe like six minutes in, seven minutes in, and the pastor stopped him. He came up afterwards and apologized. He's like, and here's what he said to me. He said, Tim, this was the only response I had at my disposal. I had no idea how to respond intellectually to what you were saying.
Rob Chartrand (01:05:19.631)
just to walk away, yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:05:20.99)
So I had to protect, I had to isolate these students, get them out of here. We didn't sign up for this. And I've had people come up to me afterwards and apologize because in their heart, they were so like angry with me, like the kind of anger that led into sin. But my point is, there's like that kind of culture that those south of the border are living in.
Rob Chartrand (01:05:38.825)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:05:48.822)
where they're constantly like, there's that constant kind of like left, right, evangelical versus non-evangelical kind of fight going on. They're constantly see this thing as a war. And to be honest, we are in a spiritual war, but the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but have divine power to destroy strongholds. What strongholds? We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raises against the knowledge of God.
and take every thought captive to obey Christ. That's, was that 1 Corinthians? So they, the point there is that's what we're doing. We're taking on arguments and lofty opinions. And the only way you can do that is when you arm yourself with the weapons to do that. Canadians need to wake up because we are kind of asleep at the wheel, I think, and we're not as...
Rob Chartrand (01:06:35.215)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Barnett (01:06:46.79)
as engaged with what's going on. And, and we're going to continue to see, because the other side, they got their weapons out too. And they're using tik tok, and they're using Instagram, look, it, I'm on tik tok, not because I want to be, but because I know that's where young people are. And so I post videos there. And I'm telling you within this is not like a brag within like three or four months, we had
Rob Chartrand (01:06:56.387)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:07:14.346)
went from zero followers to 200,000 followers. And the reason we did that was because there is a desperate need to respond to the stuff that's on TikTok. And because I was doing that, it got this massive following kind of right away. And so we, there's a need and we need to be doing it. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:07:35.599)
there's a need. Yeah. So what is what is standard reason doing to help churches then? How how can I let our listeners get connected to the work that you guys are doing?
Tim Barnett (01:07:48.446)
Yeah, this is a good question. So Stand to Reason, on our website, we have thousands of articles, we have videos, we have podcasts. In particular, we have something we call STR, Stand to Reason, STRU, as in like university. And it's just like, it's their short video curriculum and they're totally free. You put in your website and you'll have like a class or a course, I should say, on say the problem of evil.
and it will have six or seven classes. And each video is, you know, five to 10 minutes. And to go to the next class, you just do a little quiz on what you learned, you know, fill in the blank or multiple choice or whatever. So that would be one kind of resource. Of course, we have all the articles on there. When I go to answer a question for Red Pen Logic, and I need to kind of do my research, I go to Stand to Reason's website, because that was actually the...
Rob Chartrand (01:08:28.631)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:08:47.318)
the ministry that was helping me before I ever came to work for them. I was following Stand to Reason and listening to the podcast. It was three hour call-in radio show. And when you listen to a three hour call-in radio show, it's like every question under the sun gets asked. And my boss, who's now like 74, I think, so he's a seasoned apologist, okay? And he is my mentor and he's someone I greatly respect.
And I've learned so much from just listening to him answer other people's questions. So again, that's the kind of thing that as churches, listen to kind of these other people doing it and you kind of pick it up. Some things are taught and some things are caught. And I've learned a whole bunch of things, just catching them as I listened to the Stand to Reason podcast.
Rob Chartrand (01:09:39.371)
Yeah. So for yourself, do you do workshops? Do you do conferences in Canada with churches or with other institutions?
Tim Barnett (01:09:42.38)
Hmm.
Tim Barnett (01:09:49.826)
Absolutely. So if people want to invite me to speak at their church or their conference, if they go to Stand to Reason's website, there's a tab called training and they'll see my name under there and there's someone who works for Stand to Reason, they book all of my events. Now, unfortunately, because Stand to Reason is well known in the US, but not in Canada, I go to the US every other week. But I would love to start speaking.
more in Canada. In fact, I got an event in Kitchener, Ontario this weekend, Saturday, they're doing a whole conference on doubt and deconstruction. And I'm one of the speakers. And so that's, that gets me excited because this is home turf. This is where I want to be. And I don't have to hop on a plane to get there. You know, I can just, I can just, I can just drive. Yeah. So, but I would love to, I would love to be speaking more across Canada. So if people are out there and they're interested, reach out.
Rob Chartrand (01:10:38.855)
Yeah, yeah, local for you. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:10:49.462)
to stay under reason. It's, yeah, so str.org, str.org. And if they wanna book, yeah, easy. If they want to, they must've got their website like early when the internet was being put together. But if they want to, so they can find the training tab on there, or they could just email darcy, D-A-R-C-Y at str.org.
Rob Chartrand (01:10:53.488)
What's the website? What specifically?
Rob Chartrand (01:11:00.055)
Wow, three letter.
Rob Chartrand (01:11:05.363)
Early, totally. Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:11:18.782)
And Darcy is kind of our assistant. She books all the speakers events.
Rob Chartrand (01:11:18.968)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (01:11:24.427)
Yeah, we'll make sure that gets in the show notes. What's the name of the book he wrote?
Tim Barnett (01:11:28.358)
It is called The Deconstruction of Christianity. I co-authored that with Elisa Childers, who's also an apologist. We spent over a year researching, a year writing, and just in January, end of January, it came out. People can search for that on Amazon and wherever books are sold.
Rob Chartrand (01:11:37.571)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Chartrand (01:11:50.459)
Awesome. And finally, Red Pen Logic, available on YouTube. You got any anything else you got the IGs going, Instagram or Facebook or
Tim Barnett (01:11:59.526)
Yeah, so we're on Instagram, we're on Facebook, we're on TikTok and YouTube. Twitter became just a, like you said before, a dumpster fire. So I think there is an account, but I don't post anything on there anymore. It is just like, to me, that place is a lost cause. So someone else can go there. But if people want, just search Red Pen Logic and start following on there.
Rob Chartrand (01:12:12.781)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (01:12:21.539)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:12:28.623)
And we really appreciate that.
Rob Chartrand (01:12:31.667)
Yeah, that's great. Appreciate the work you do, Tim, and praying for God's continued grace for you as you do your work south of the border and hopefully more and more now here north of the border, north of the 49th. So thanks for joining us on Church in the North. Hope to get you back here again.
Tim Barnett (01:12:46.434)
Yeah.
Tim Barnett (01:12:50.015)
Yeah, thanks for having me. This was fun.
Rob Chartrand (01:12:52.076)
All right. Have a great day, Matt.