Welcome to Church in the North, a podcast by ministry leaders and for ministry leaders. I'm your host, Chartrand, and I'm joined by my cohost, Dresser. Good morning, Geoff. Hey, Rob. And our other cohost, our token resident next gen expert from far, far away in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, Chris Drinnan.
Rob Chartrand:Good morning, Chris. And thanks for everyone, for joining in our in studio conversation today, which means we won't be having an additional interview at the end of this conversation. Instead, we're going have a lengthy dialogue about an important issue that matters. We'll get into that in a moment. But before we dive in, I want to remind our listeners that if you like what you hear on our podcast, please share your comments or hit that subscribe button for more great content from North Of The 49th Parallel.
Rob Chartrand:Hey guys. This is a good gonna be a great conversation today. I want to talk to you about longevity in ministry and burnout in ministry. So I sent you guys an article recently. Barna, had posted it in January.
Rob Chartrand:Interesting study on pastoral burnout. The findings of the study was that for pastors, they noticed that burnout or exodus for ministry is on the decline. You guys get So, it. Yeah, that's good. That's good news.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. So you guys had a chance to, to read the article. Any, any key takeaways from the article you want to share with our listeners? Geoff, how about you?
Geoff Dresser:I mean, for me, one of the key takeaways was the relational aspect of it that, and that resonated with me as I thought back to times when I when I was experiencing some level of burnout and that feeling like I was alone in that that time really, really made it tough. And, and I thought, yeah, that is a that is an important, thing for, for pastors, leaders in ministry to have, to have friends and just to have people that you can, that you can be real with and honest with and walk through those difficult things with and, and to, you know, to talk about what you're going through, just it helps you get a perspective because you just, you just lose perspective when you're when you're in the thick of it.
Rob Chartrand:Right. Right. So, you know, sometimes we get together with other pastors and we can just, you know, kind of whine and moan about it, you know, and call the ambulance. But this is something a little bit different than that, right? Commiserating with people.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah,
Geoff Dresser:those people that aren't going to get you spiraling even faster. Do you want hear my joke?
Rob Chartrand:Well, you can't stop now.
Geoff Dresser:Okay. So these two worship pastors got together and didn't complain about their lead pastor. The whole that's the whole joke.
Rob Chartrand:So like the comparative analysis is like now compared to say the season of COVID, which I mean it was skyrocketing. And of course we had the mass exodus of a number of people from all sorts of careers at that time. There was shortage of accountants in the world, for example. Clergy was with that, but our numbers were just way higher. But pre COVID, our numbers were high also.
Rob Chartrand:Right? Like, and so then there's this big kind of bell curve blip and now it's down, but it's still not like you say, it's still not great. Yeah. Resiliency. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Our resilience in in ministry is still a challenge.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah, for sure.
Geoff Dresser:I just like imagining that, like, if Chris were the explorer and bringing, you know, the ships to the new world, he's he's on team. We burn the ships. Like, there's no turning back. There's no other vocation you can go to. This is it.
Geoff Dresser:You have to make this work or you perish.
Chris Drinnan:There well, there's a certain, yeah, there's a certain level of investment when that happens that you just can't deny that it works. Right?
Geoff Dresser:Or you burn the retreat plans.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:Survivor dies. Yeah. Well
Rob Chartrand:So, you know, we we live in the age of customization, of personalization, of choose your own way. You know, this this the the individual is the center of the universe, thanks to the enlightenment. Let's back up the bus four or five hundred years ago. If you were in a vocation, that was your vocation. Whether it was good or bad or whether you lost your hand, it didn't matter.
Rob Chartrand:You're like, that was it. But now, I mean, we we we just feel this existential angst as soon as something goes wrong in our careers. And and we do wanna bail. Like, you know what I Rather than sitting with it for a long time. And I know I'm, I'm going to sound terrible to anybody who's feeling difficulty, but I think there is a reality of like, we're in a certain historical cultural moment that gives us the luxury of choosing alternatives.
Rob Chartrand:Right. Whereas we didn't, we didn't always have that for much of human history. And so the knowledge of that and knowing that we're in a position in a job that we're not loving. Okay. But knowing that we could have an alternative.
Rob Chartrand:Like before, didn't know you could have an alternative, but now we know we can have an alternative. The ability to have the knowledge of that creates cognitive dissonance in our minds, and that creates existential angst. Right? Like Yeah. Like, you wouldn't have had that existential angst because you wouldn't have had the option 400 ago, but now we know we can.
Rob Chartrand:Like, I could go and be a plumber. Not that I want to, but I could. Right? Yep.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. I think and I think we're headed in this direction, but I think it works well here is that I think that's the value of having a sense of calling, which is where we're going.
Rob Chartrand:Mhmm.
Chris Drinnan:Where something that is gonna hold you to what you've committed to and not bail, like not jump ship on it. Yeah. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:I do think it's it it exacerbates that sense of hopelessness. If you feel that, like, I have no agency, like, I'm stuck here. Right. And and and I think I mean that's one of the signs of burnout when you lose that perspective that no, you still have you still have choices to make and you can always choose the choose the attitude that you're going to have toward toward what you're going through. And there are there are ways to like, I'm going to choose to try to I can either try to change my situation or or find a new find a new situation or I mean, maybe it is time to to move on from whatever the current leadership position that you're in.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Is and trust that trust God that he's called you and that he will provide next step. But that, I mean, you could feel like, no, I am called to be a pastor, but that doesn't mean that you're stuck and you have sort of no agency.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah, for sure.
Geoff Dresser:Right. In a situation, even though, like at times it feels like that, like it really feels like that. And that's where, you know, that's where you you need a support system to be able to help you to maintain that healthy perspective.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I mean, when I first got in the ministry, mean, I was in a great church for about five years and then I jumped into another church and it was a difficult church. And I I almost wanted to quit ministry, you know, but I had that calling. And then I got into another church and it was a difficult church. And I wanted to quit even more.
Rob Chartrand:Looking for the
Chris Drinnan:common spread here.
Rob Chartrand:And then I got into another church and Wait.
Chris Drinnan:This is where you're like, I decided to plant my own church. Yeah. That's right. No.
Rob Chartrand:No. No. I I ended up in some some great churches after that. But there were there was a season where yeah. I mean, in in any in any leadership scenario, it's always a tango.
Rob Chartrand:Like, there's you've got to own your own stuff. Right? And I own my own stuff in those seasons, but those churches were blowing up, like in a bad way. Right? And so I ended up in these really difficult scenarios.
Rob Chartrand:And I guess what I'm saying is and I was like feeling like I wanted to quit and, it's okay in those situations if God's calling you out to follow the lead and and to get out. I mean, that's don't wanna so I I just I wanna course correct on what I originally said at the beginning just to say, you know, this is the historical reality. We want agency. We're the center, but, there are bad scenarios where it's okay to move on. Like, I think we've, all had difficult scenarios.
Rob Chartrand:You've had pretty good scenarios with Chris.
Chris Drinnan:Well, I've yeah. My own my yeah. My first gig, I was an intern at Hillcrest and then got hired on. So, like, the only thing I've known is is it. And it's yeah.
Chris Drinnan:And I've I've had a very
Rob Chartrand:Just you wait Henry Higgins, just you wait, I'm just kidding.
Chris Drinnan:It may
Rob Chartrand:never be so. For many it's not so. So guys what makes pastors consider quitting ministry? What are some of the lead causes?
Geoff Dresser:Oh, man. I mean, as I was, thinking through, this conversation when you, you know, when you sent the note out to us about what we would be talking about, and went through my the times when I was experiencing burnout. For me it was, I was a people pleaser and I was trying to keep everyone in my life happy. And I don't know if I told this story on this podcast or not. But when I was like a couple of years into ministry and a friend of mine took me out to lunch and asked me how it going, how it was going.
Geoff Dresser:And I told him, well, I'm a professional disappoint. I get up in the morning and I decide who am I gonna disappoint today? Is it gonna be my boss or my wife? Is it gonna be Sally because Lucy got the solo or Lucy because Sally got the solo? And I just like, that's how I framed, like and that's very messed up.
Rob Chartrand:Not a great way to do a mystery. And
Geoff Dresser:but I just looked like, I was giving every single person in my life, in my orbit, the power to ruin my day. And I mean, that's a terrible way to live. And I had to I mean, God had to work on my heart so that I my identity, my sense of my sense of it's gonna be okay came from my relationship with him. And that my I mean, I had to anchor my identity in Christ and not in what everyone around me thought about me.
Rob Chartrand:So, you know, just I want to drill a little bit deeper on that, Jeff. Like you obviously experienced that for yourself and you had to deal with your own junk, right? But was it was there like a systemic kind of problem within within the church culture as well? Whereas like others were finding their meaning and whether or not they got a solo and maybe even like a graceless culture that didn't allow people the freedom to make mistakes in ministry. Right?
Rob Chartrand:And so you felt like you were you were basically a reflection of the church culture that you were in.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, yeah, part of what was unhealthy about our culture was there was sort of a, hey, look how hard I'm working. Oh, yeah. Kind of vibe.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And so there were expectations. I mean, and another piece of it was during this time, I was in charge of this is gonna make you laugh. I was in charge of the welcomers and the greeter, like the greeters and the host team. And I mean, think I have some good qualities but like for sure, like warm and friendly is like probably not would not be the top of the list.
Chris Drinnan:Really? Yeah. I don't know you as well.
Geoff Dresser:But but just yeah, like I'm an introvert for me. Like I'm super comfortable on the platform talking to 500 people, but the wander through the foyer like media like that's no,
Rob Chartrand:you stand near the back with your hands folded.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I was all this to say, was in a situation where I'm supposed to lead this team and just like on a Sunday, that team is at work when also the worship team is getting ready to lead worship. So I was in a I was in a situation where I could not succeed, where I felt like I couldn't succeed. And, so I was constantly coming, like, just feeling guilty about not leading that team well, about not being able to, to inspire them and to coach them.
Geoff Dresser:And I came to a point where during a, during a performance review, and here's where I like, I thought, oh, I'm locked into this. Well, no, I've got some choices to make. So I went into the performance review with the lead pastor and the executive pastor knowing that I was going to get hammered is what I was going to say. Yeah, I think they were going to hammer me for for like we didn't have a parking ministry. We like the greeters and hosts like that was not going great.
Geoff Dresser:And so I went in and said, look, I am an introvert. I score like like 99. I think I've tempered a bit since then, but like I'd recently done a Myers Briggs and I was like 99 on the introvert scale.
Rob Chartrand:He's a real engineer.
Geoff Dresser:So yeah. Yeah. So I like I came in and said, look, like this is never gonna work. Like I'm never gonna do this well. And so I'm not gonna do it anymore.
Geoff Dresser:And if that means I don't fit here as part of this church, then we can have that conversation or the conversation can be well what like how can we shape my role so it fits better with my actual strengths? And they tried like four or five times. Well, let's talk about how you could lead the group and I'm like, I'm not gonna do and I had permission from my wife, like I said, I might get fired today. And but I I like, it was so empowering for me. Like, I took control.
Geoff Dresser:Like, I know who I am. I know what I'm good at. I I understand more about my calling. And yeah. And and, like, I'm not gonna try and I knew these guys weren't gonna be pleased, and I was okay with that.
Geoff Dresser:Like, that's that's okay. And I was to the point where, like, you know what, Lord? Like, I believe you've called me into this. And and if if this is my goodbye from this church, well then I'm going to trust that you've got you've got something else for me.
Rob Chartrand:So what was it like being on unemployment for a couple
Geoff Dresser:or did they repent? No, no, they so they worked on, like I, they asked me to do work more on sort of church communication. So like we kind of had sort of a newsletter and to get more involved on that side of things. So that's what I that's what I did. Now the I'm trying to think of the timeline of things, I think within, yeah, I mean the church had all sorts of other problems and I think the pastor was was the lead pastor ended up being given a six month sabbatical to work on some things like shortly after that.
Geoff Dresser:So I mean that that all went. So I but I was no longer in charge of the ushers and the greeters after that.
Rob Chartrand:I mean, so there's you've actually identified a couple of things. Mean, one is the people pleasing attitude, but the other one is just being in a role that's not aligning with your gift mix.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Right.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And like another church that I was at a sort of the pastor of I can't remember exactly what we called a spiritual formation or something like that. He literally left the church in a stretcher. He was putting in hours and hours. And then one day he collapsed in his office and we had to call an ambulance and he was taken out in a stretcher.
Geoff Dresser:And it was, I I mean, and I was new at the church, so I didn't know all the things that were going on. But I think the previous person in that role had just been a super high motor, tons of hours and and had a certain style of leading that just wasn't him. And I think he was trying to fit that expectation of what that role was. And that was that was just not going to not going to work.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. Chris, what do you think? You got any thoughts on on why pastors quit ministry?
Chris Drinnan:Well, I guess I think I was just thinking about just the stress of it. Like, if I think if you if you don't have a way of managing your stress or, like, sort of processing it, I think that will just take you out. Whether it's coworkers, working relationship with your lead pastor, or congregants, or whether it's, like, fractions within the church and different families or whether it's like disappointments in ministry or personal sin or whatever. Like, if you don't have a way of like an outlet for confessing your sin
Geoff Dresser:Mhmm.
Chris Drinnan:Getting some healing, having some frank conversations about how you perceive things are going on with trusted people that are able to give some maybe some perspective or some other things. Like, I just think stress is just gonna eat you.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Like,
Chris Drinnan:you you have to find a way to to to process it in a in a way that's yeah. So I was kinda thinking about that. I think too, I I had often made I had often made the statement that I didn't realize that becoming a pastor meant that I gave up being pastoring being pastored. Like, that I lost a like and so when you come onto a church staff, sometimes it can feel like that where all of a sudden now the expectations are new. You're you're a pastor, you're a leader, and you're everyone is busy leading that sometimes that you sort of I mean, I I can't I can't attend Hillcrest.
Chris Drinnan:I mean, I love our worship. I love like, I love our church, but I can't attend and and and just show up and feel like it's just like, I'm I'm I'm one of the other congregants just enjoying a Sunday at church. Like, there's always things going through my mind about, like,
Rob Chartrand:you know You're always taking notes.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Always taking notes or worrying and stressing about stuff or wondering or distracted by stuff. So so I think you have to work extra hard when you're in ministry to process that stuff and have, yeah, supports around you or or even just like having a I think having open dialogue at your lead team or at your team at church where can kind of call a time out and go, This is just how I'm feeling or this is sort of what's going on. I need a little bit of perspective or I need some hope or some advice on how to address that.
Rob Chartrand:Well, I've got to say that problem doesn't go away when you're out of ministry. I'm an ordained pastor, but I'm not pastoring a church right now. I sit in the pew as a member. I'm checking off boxes and looking at this, and I would have done this differently, critiquing this and all that sort of thing. So, it takes a real discipline to shut it off if you can and just receive.
Chris Drinnan:When we did the YWC conference in Saskatoon, and then we stick around for the extra day and go to just go to a church. And so we showed up at Elam. And I was in, like, the there there was no we got late, of course. And, like, there's no seats left except for at the very, very front way off in the wing. So I'm basically in a corner of this massive auditorium, but I am, like, balling my eyes out, hands up in worship, just connecting with Jesus because it's just like the it's not there.
Chris Drinnan:Like, I'm Yeah. I'm not I'm not a part of anything that's happening here. I can just be and I was like, well, this is that was kinda really refreshing. So I do I think it's important for us to Yeah. Cultivate that and make sure that that's not missing in our lives.
Rob Chartrand:Stop being a professional pastor and just be a human.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Yeah. It takes us a bit to get there there sometimes.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah. You know, you have to
Geoff Dresser:And I think, like, it's it's important to have to have friends who are in ministry outside of your church or context. Yeah. So that you can I mean, I I've known some pastors who've had like a board member or whatever that they can be transparent with, but like that's like it's rare? And sometimes like if you need to vent about your church, you can't do that to someone in your church. Like, let Earth, you can't.
Geoff Dresser:I mean, it it it's tough on them. And if if they and they often just don't understand because, I mean, if you haven't sort of been a pastor at a church, you you haven't experienced that change that you're talking about, that you guys are talking about. And so to have someone outside of that, that you can just sort of vent and and process your frustrations or the things that you're going through and in a healthy way is so important. But we're I mean, it's you have to go after that. It doesn't just happen naturally.
Geoff Dresser:You I mean, I've been saying for like five or six years that with some of the other worship pastors in Moose Jaw, hey, we should get together every once in a while for for lunch. And finally, we're we're doing it this year after like six years of saying, hey, we should we should beat more than once a year at the at the joint Good Friday service. And but it's yeah. You like you need that that those relationships to support you.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. What I appreciate about our our Danahm, so I'm I'm Alliance background, but they Back when I was planting a church, you know, planted 2010, was there till 2022. They encourage pastors in our district to get into what's called an SPN. So the Alliance is really big on acronyms. The acronym thinks to death, but it's a strategic peer network.
Rob Chartrand:So during that season of the church plant, which was like the most stressful time of my ministry career, I would say, I had two bros, shout out to Dean and to Graham, that we met with met together, like, at least once a month to talk about ministry and what's going on. And we came prepared with questions, and we prayed for each other and talked about the challenges. There were some times where, like, I was stressed out to the max, and they they were the guys who kinda talked me down from the cliff and and also just, you know, helped me to see things more broadly. So I I I agree. Like, I think to have those networks.
Rob Chartrand:And and it was nice because they were outside of my context, so it was safe in the sense that, like, they didn't have anything at stake Yeah. In my failure. Like, it didn't it didn't affect them in that sense. And so I could just could just talk to them and they they understood because they were in ministry, their peers in ministry. So I know there's some people, though, who would say, well, you should just be able to do that with people in your church and some people can and whatnot.
Rob Chartrand:But I just didn't I didn't feel that I could. The community was small enough that it's just so organic and enmeshed that I just felt like it was just not a safe place where I could have those conversations. So can we talk about the sin issue? Like like
Chris Drinnan:Like, mine personally? To. Well,
Rob Chartrand:not you know, I mean, like, I I wanna be careful because people are like, well, I don't not experiencing burnout because of sin. Burnout's not a sin, and burnout's not a sin. But but burnout can run adjacent to sin. And and so the hiddenness of pastoral ministry, the dark side of ministry, whether it's somebody's wrestling with a personal sin or just the idolatry of ministry itself being that sin that's at the center. And at the center of the idolatry of ministry is the idolatry of self because you can't separate yourself from your ministry.
Rob Chartrand:Right? And so I think there is a complexity of burnout that does often include the pastors not dealing with their junk. Yeah. What do you guys think about it? Is is that a crazy idea?
Rob Chartrand:Am I gonna oh oh, Jeff's walking out of the room.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. No. I I have no idea what you're talking about, Rob. No, totally. I mean, I think the, I mean, if someone's struggling with an addiction or a personal sin, the stress of maintaining that double life is, I mean, that takes a lot of energy.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Just like emotional and spiritual energy to ride that roller coaster. So that's going to add to the stress and the burnout. I mean, I've certainly like been there where my like, who am I? Well, my identity is that I am a successful religious professional and that all my events are wonderful and that the music is great every Sunday and hearts are like and and to be living up to that, it is like I that's one that I thought I had that under control.
Geoff Dresser:And then I I mean, in a stressful situation in the church that I was in, I resigned and just felt that the Lord was saying, hey, it's time, you know, it's time for you to to move on. And so suddenly I was just a guy and Where's your identity? Yeah. And I was that was really tough and sort of eye opening for me to to have that piece taken away from me and and to go from being, you know, everyone's favorite worship leader to to just a worshipper. Like, is that all I and realizing that, oh my goodness, I've been I've been really wrapped up in the things I've been doing Mhmm.
Geoff Dresser:For the Lord. And it was, I mean, it was it was tough, but it was really good for for me to to have that taken away. And I mean, the the way the Lord in his in his wisdom and in his mercy, when we become dependent on something other than him, he'll just take that away as a way to help us. And and it really did. Like, I needed to really reframe my my identity and to repent from from making my identity as a as a leader, as a as a worship pastor, an idol.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. So yeah. And and
Rob Chartrand:if you don't cast down on the idol, the Lord will.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I mean, I and I look back and I think the only way I ever could have learned that lesson is by having that taken away. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. I think it's interesting this dynamic when you're in ministry, how you would counsel. I work with youth, they come in and they're struggling with something or whatever, and it's easy and natural to extend grace and forgiveness and to assure them of God's love and His support and stuff like that. It's I mean, I just like yeah. I think I think I'm pretty good at that.
Chris Drinnan:Right. Extending extending that same grace towards myself
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Is another story. So I think, yeah, I think there's a lot of energy sort of like you can kinda get off track where you find your identity and extending this to others, but at the same time, you're not you're not receiving it as yourself. I think one thing that helps this is interesting. Something I mean, I've only experienced kinda Hillcrest in employment, but we had done this thing where I believe it was our our associate Kurt had come up with it. I think it's called, like, the Bethlehem accountability thing.
Chris Drinnan:I don't know whether it's a John Piper thing or whatever, but it's a it's a it's a list of just, like, really frank kind of accountability questions. And now this could be a thing when you're staring at this list for the first time and you're going through and it's like, have you seen any sexual, like, explicit material in the last week? And you're going, man. Okay. Like, the things are getting real, and you're like, well, I'm not and it's not meant to be something you can fill out and hand into your lead, but it's you we get into smaller groups with staff.
Chris Drinnan:Mhmm. And we have a time where we just walk through this, and it it the time of kind of confession and Wow. Letting people and it also talks about where's your energy for the week? How are you feeling? Like, it's just kind of like a great little snapshot, and we take about an hour to do it.
Chris Drinnan:And we I don't It's like it's like quarterly type thing, maybe twice a year that we kinda get to Well, we did it in this last little while, and we had we had interns in this meeting. And I was like, oh, this is gonna be a a social experiment because how how are these, like, young interns gonna handle this? And I I thought it was great. There was we had a you know, we're and we're broken up into guys and girls. And so in our small group, it was another staff person that went first and was transparent and real.
Chris Drinnan:And then another staff person went and was, like, transparent. I'm kinda watching our interns, and it came to them. And, man, it was awesome because I I know what it was like the the first time I did this and went, I can either choose to just sort of put on a face and say that everything's okay and just sort of slough this off, or or can I is this a space where I can be real and transparent? And, like, I was proud of these guys because they I they they were real and they were transparent, and they they got it. And I'm like, oh, like, yeah.
Chris Drinnan:I wanted to let them know, like, guys, you made a great decision that day. And if you keep making that decision, it's vulnerable and it's difficult, but this is gonna serve you well in ministry.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Right? Wow. Yeah. Well, and and again, getting back to that that safe space, safe culture, you obviously your your staff team, at least, has has developed a culture of grace rather than phariseeism, rather than performance, but one of really, at the end end of the day, what what matters most is that we are becoming Christ like, and Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:We're being formed and shaped into his image. And so there's freedom for people to make mistakes and and and to experience Christ's grace even when you're in leadership.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. And your comment earlier about, like, realizing that you're just you're just a human. Like, I think in ministry, we need to be reminded of that over and over again that we're we're we're just human. Like, we're just we're just dirt.
Rob Chartrand:Right.
Chris Drinnan:Everybody else that's got life and yeah. And to to, yeah, to kinda just be real
Geoff Dresser:with that,
Chris Drinnan:like, then to yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Although we are more accountable.
Chris Drinnan:This is true. Yes.
Rob Chartrand:But we still need well, so we need twice as much grace.
Geoff Dresser:But that it I mean, that's I mean, one way to look at that exercise is, which of these grounds for dismissal did you did you participate in? And so that that's that like so I mean, my hat is off to Hillcrest for creating that that safe culture of of grace and that balance between grace and accountability and that, you know, the go and sin no more. And and the goal being that we would, that we would become holy. Yeah. And, but that's I mean, that that sounds pretty rare to me.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Yeah. And and yet, like, I have a community like that with with the the men's retreat ministry that I've that I'm involved with. And in those guys where we can, we can be totally transparent and there's grace and there's and we are encouraged to, to to get closer to the heart of Jesus in these things and experience his forgiveness and transformation. And so, I mean, I think but, I mean, that sounds awesome what you guys have going on there.
Chris Drinnan:It's really uncomfortable every time it comes around. I'm
Geoff Dresser:not Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Kidding. But yeah. But at at at the same and and honestly, like, so much of it is dependent on whoever the senior person is in the group. Totally. If they don't if they don't they don't lead it and they don't lead with transparency, like because it's it's we do it far enough apart where you kinda forget.
Chris Drinnan:And if if, yeah, if somebody the first person that shares if there if there's any sense of sort of like a facade or like a just sort of like, like, I'm not I'm not there. And I mean, you can be gracious. Like, if you can have days where you shop and you're just like, I'm not there, guys. Like, I'm not I'm not going through this. Like, I just can't today type thing.
Chris Drinnan:Like, I think there's grace for that too. But but if if someone's willing to the lead person in there is able to enter in and go, okay. This like, guys, I I need, like, I need your grace. Need your prayer, and I need your support.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. I mean, some people in, like, AA or 12 steps program just need to sit there and listen and not share. You know what I mean? It's not their day to talk.
Chris Drinnan:You know what I mean?
Rob Chartrand:And that's okay.
Chris Drinnan:And there's no yeah.
Rob Chartrand:There's grace for that too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm really like, I I've gone through, like, a number of accountability groups, and I I always like, the questions are often very the same. And and the one that it's always hit hard, and and it should be, is, like, sexual sin and ex explicitness.
Rob Chartrand:But I just thought of, like and and I I know I'm getting us off track for just a second here, but, like, I just thought of a set of questions for pastors or a set of questions that are beyond that accountability spectrum. Like, did you post something on social media this week that puts you in that that was solely for the sake of putting you in a positive light towards everybody? Oh, man. Right? Or did you, impulse buy something on Amazon this week that you really didn't need when you could have been generous
Geoff Dresser:to us?
Chris Drinnan:With the church's credit card.
Rob Chartrand:Did you go to the refrigerator at 11:00 at night and eat something
Chris Drinnan:that you you you know what I mean?
Rob Chartrand:Like, we we don't we don't you know you know what I mean? Like, there's
Chris Drinnan:just You need to craft those questions
Geoff Dresser:and put the load
Chris Drinnan:in the
Rob Chartrand:that that I wish they'd ask, but they don't. Actually, maybe I don't wish they ask, but you know what I mean? Like Yep. Especially for in an age of platform, especially for pastors, some of those platform
Geoff Dresser:questions. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Anyway, track, what role guys, this is kind of the center of our conversation. What role does vocational calling play in keeping people in ministry?
Geoff Dresser:I mean, I, I do think that that is a there are always going to be times when you're going to experience trouble and feel like like nothing is going right. Like what on earth am I doing? Being able to to to look back on on that calling into ministry is just so, so essential. And I mean, I tell, I tell, you know, my students and people that I'm mentoring to even if you're not a journaler, like habitually, like write those things down, those moments when you experience that call so that you can go back to them. And and I mean, we see this pattern throughout throughout scripture where where there's, you know, there's a calling, there's a promise, and then there's a threat that comes into the to the promise.
Geoff Dresser:And and but being able to to look back on that, that promise is is incredibly important. Or yeah, you just think, oh, I was just what was I thinking? And you then you end up packing it in. Chris, what do you think? Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:I think well, for me personally, I know that it's it's all it's central to probably, like, longevity and resilience in ministry is having a good sense of call. And I don't I don't think it's a sense of calling where it's like I, you know, I I felt something at an altar one time that I was called to the ministry, and now I've made that commitment. And I've you know, I think calling is something that that is always in a state of, like, flux and moving, and I think that we need to be paying attention to. Yeah. I don't think pastors stay not because it's easy, but because they're called.
Chris Drinnan:And I would say that that's true in my world. And another another thought that had come to me is that calling doesn't erase hardship. It sharpens resilience Okay. Type idea. Like, that it's yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Just because you're called, you can have the great most elaborate calling. I I think the more, I don't know, the more dramatic your sense of calling, I think it's preparing you for dramatic hardships as well. I almost wonder if there's a correlation there. But I think having a good sense of your call, I think it that it continually sharpens sort of your resilience. Think.
Chris Drinnan:Mhmm.
Rob Chartrand:Yep. I I was thinking about this question as well. I was thinking I I think your vocational calling can actually drive you out of ministry as well. And let me unpack this a little bit because I've I've been teaching a workshop this last week with, a number of apprentices. It was like a Zoom workshop I was doing with apprentices in some of our alliance churches in our district who were thinking about going into ministry and wanted to know what what does it mean to be called.
Rob Chartrand:And and so the theology of the call was what we were walking through. And I I think an important distinction is that we have a primary calling and we have a secondary calling. And our primary calling is, and this is Os Guinness in his book, The Call, our primary calling is to Christ himself. And our secondary calling is to whatever Christ calls us to do. So our primary calling is what we who we are with Christ.
Rob Chartrand:Our secondary calling is what we do for Christ. And where people get junked up in ministry sometimes is they flip their callings and their primary calling becomes what they do for Christ. And the secondary calling is who they are with Christ. And so every person on the planet has this same primary calling is to be with Christ. He calls everybody to himself.
Rob Chartrand:That's the call. Right? And that's the most important call. And your secondary calling, your vocation flows out of that primary calling. But we we junk it up or we separate them.
Rob Chartrand:Like, and we can do this, you know, with people who aren't in the church ministry and we say, yours is a profession. It's not
Chris Drinnan:a vocation. It's like, no, no.
Rob Chartrand:Everyone has a calling. Everyone has a vocation. Right? It's first to Christ and it's second what we do for Christ, whatever that is, whether you're a plumber or a doctor or a pickleball expert, it doesn't matter. Okay.
Rob Chartrand:So anyway, so pastors do that too, though, is that we elevate the secondary calling so much that we forget our first calling and then, boy, things get junked up. And that's when it leads to ministry idolatry. That's where it leads to it's all about me. Don't you know I'm the expert in the room? All of that kind of stuff.
Rob Chartrand:So Yeah. You've got to lean into that secondary calling. Absolutely. But not disadvantage or or at the expense of losing that that primary calling in in your life. So, anyway, I I agree.
Rob Chartrand:Like, all of all the pastors I've interviewed on this podcast, all have said, you know, that it's that calling that has kept them. Right? But I don't think they lost that first calling as well.
Geoff Dresser:I'm currently, like, maybe I've mentioned this before. I'm going through these Ignatian exercises sort of for my my own devotional time in this season. And I'm way more comfortable with the secondary calling things like, what are you called to do for Christ? I'm like, I'm doing all kinds of stuff like that. But but there are so many like so many of the mornings, the exercise is, you know, sit with Jesus and and, like, enter into a a dialogue with with Jesus about and to try, you know, the grace that you're trying to experience is just a deeper intimacy and a deeper love.
Geoff Dresser:And to to I struggle with that stuff. And and I'm way more comfortable with what are you doing? Oh, I got a list. Look at all this stuff. My look at my calendar, man.
Geoff Dresser:It's full.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:And and that's, I mean, that's what God is is is working on me or how he's working on me now is just to be drawn closer to the heart of of Jesus. And it's Yeah. I'm way more comfortable being busy Yeah. For him than than just to be with him.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. So I'm curious. So in in thinking about those two different callings, if you if there was, like, all of a sudden something miraculous happens and pastors across the nation are all of a sudden prioritizing that primary calling of just time with Jesus, what do you think would change about the way that our churches operate? What would be the noticeable thing? Like, what would be the measuring thing if pastors if pastors across leadership across our churches, if all of a sudden that thing was in right order, how do you think that would change the way that things look?
Rob Chartrand:I think we'd have grace filled congregations that are not performative.
Chris Drinnan:Right? Non performative. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand:Non performative. And listen, I I mean, we I wanna do things with excellence. We wanna work hard. All of those things. But it's are we working from Christ or are we working for Christ?
Rob Chartrand:Right? And are we working from grace or are we working for grace? Right? There's a difference Right? I think it would change that performative environment that we have, which is very much a phariseical environment.
Rob Chartrand:It's just we have a different set of scripts. We don't have the Talmud that's dictating it. We have other things instead. I don't know, Geoff. What are your thoughts?
Geoff Dresser:I mean, I think, I mean, as I'm going through these Ignatian exercises, like on the one hand, there's there's this aspect like so my off the top of my head, my thought is, yeah, well, nothing's gonna get done. Like, like, annual report won't be ready. And then
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:But but I mean, like, Saint Ignatius, he's got all this sort of medieval military imagery as well, where, like, you are called to to be a soldier under the banner of Christ. And so and you look at his life. I mean, he did he was busy. He was not just lying around with his head in the clouds. And but but I think it's that sense of that sense of peace and rest from being with Jesus in the midst of of every moment in life and a heart that is mean, they talk about this holy indifference where yeah.
Geoff Dresser:I mean, if I if I preach a great sermon and and lots of people hear it, that's good. And if I don't, I I don't care. Like, all I care about is that my heart would be close to Jesus. And and having the interior freedom to to follow Christ and not be not be ensnared by by trying to please people or my own comfort or my own prestige or whatever. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:All these other things that our hearts chase after. So so I think that I mean, if we truly did that, we would still have balance. I think a lot of the busy work that doesn't need to be done would would disappear. But I think, like, I think that I mean, someone who is someone who loves Jesus wholeheartedly is so attractive that that that people just want to be like them.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:And Jesus shines through them. Mhmm. And that's more powerful than your seven, you know, habits of highly effective people or whatever else you want to, you want to do to be that, to be that winning victorious pastor leader, you know, superhero. And so, yeah, I think it would be fantastic if that had happened.
Rob Chartrand:Well, what do you think, Chris?
Chris Drinnan:I think, I think resilience would go through the roof. And I think I don't think that there might still be pastors leaving their roles, but they wouldn't be quitting. They'd be they'd be being sent out or led out into whatever it is that Jesus is calling them to. I think we'd enter I think we'd enter a season of the great no. Like, I think they'd just be they'd be saying no to a lot more stuff.
Chris Drinnan:It would just be, no. Not sure about that. We just like, I think things would slow down drastically in our churches. But then I think I think there'd be a sense of, like, clarity about what Jesus is actually calling us to and the way he's calling us to do it. I think there'd be, like, a resurgence of I think a lot of great stuff that we're already still doing just with a, yeah, just with a freshness and a newness in it and a sense of kind of commitment and clarity, I think, would be refreshing.
Chris Drinnan:Yeah. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:So when you sent the notes out, when I got the email about what we were going to talk about this, about this, I was about to sit down and do my Ignatian meditation that morning and this was the passage that I used to meditate on. So here we go. Matthew eleven twenty eight to 30.
Rob Chartrand:There we go.
Geoff Dresser:Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Rob Chartrand:Yep. There it is. There's the word of the day for us first and and then our listeners. Let me let me switch things up just in the final stretch of this conversation here, guys. I want to talk about burnout in particular, and I'll ask you if you've ever experienced burnout before.
Rob Chartrand:And I mean, short answer on this one, but I do want to make a distinction. I think it's important that we make a distinction for our listeners that burnout is a clinical state. Like there's a it's an actual technical clinical term. We've conflated a lot of things that we experience in life with burnout, you know, so everything seems to be burnout. But when in fact it isn't, there's a difference between burnout and say fatigue or exhaustion or being stretched too thin or not having margin and all those sorts of things.
Rob Chartrand:And we want to be careful not to not to conflate the term. And I know, Geoff, you've taught about this in your class. I mean, we teach it. Mean, Phil Collins, who teaches our spiritual formation ministry talks a lot about burnout as well. And I've certainly addressed it with our ministry students.
Rob Chartrand:So, but talking about burnout, have you ever come close to or experienced burnout in ministry? I mean, I think I've like, I've never, like had to take a medical leave or whatever
Geoff Dresser:to recover the, but I've experienced, I mean as we were, you know, the material you're saying we're going, oh these are the signs of burnout like, oh yeah, okay, I've experienced.
Rob Chartrand:Go close to the edge.
Geoff Dresser:Like one is the, is the, the depersonalizing your work and it's just like, like this, like not caring anymore about the work and just feeling like you're in this doom loop. Yeah. And I mean for me, like my my sense of humor becomes even darker if if you can imagine, but like Cutting. Cutting gallows humor. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:And and then the other thing, like, have been seasons where I've been operating sort of in crisis mode on adrenaline.
Chris Drinnan:Mhmm.
Geoff Dresser:And then, like, suddenly a week comes along where there aren't any, any crises to deal with and I'm paralyzed. Like I can't, like without that adrenaline, I can't, I'm so unproductive. And, and for me that's a sign like, oh, okay. Like I've been, there hasn't been any, any margin and, and like I'm not in a, in a good place. Like I can know, like even when circumstances allow me to have a restful week, it turns into a crisis because I can't I don't have the ability to function without that adrenaline
Rob Chartrand:hit. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:This is why pastors like struggle with days off Yeah. And struggle with on vacation. Like, we're all of a sudden that, you know, nothing nothing to do, no crisis, and it's like they don't know because they haven't sustained sort of, these habits or these practices like
Rob Chartrand:Or hobbies.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. It's exactly I I had a friend
Chris Drinnan:who Reading the bible is my hobby.
Geoff Dresser:Who any sort of strange neurotic behavior like he would say, well, everybody needs a hobby. And I like but it's like but like, yeah, you gotta you gotta have somewhere else you could go that just is enjoyable.
Rob Chartrand:I got a ton of hobbies. There's a lot of things I do. Yeah. It's just so what practices do you have you? So I will say, listen, I I've yeah, two times I've come to the edge of burnout and and and had to pare back and and recalibrate my life and rethink my life, etcetera.
Rob Chartrand:It's just not a good place to be. Like, it's just terrible place to be in burnout. So, Chris, have you experienced burnout or been closer?
Chris Drinnan:So I I would have before kind of prepping for this conversation, I think I would have said, oh, yeah. I think I've been close. And I because I've even talked about, like, in the past reference sort of burnout, I think I'm nearing. Man, once I read what a little bit more of what burnout was, like this idea of, like, chronic emotional and spiritual depletion where there's, like, cynicism, detachment, loss of motivation, and overwhelming sense of ineffectiveness. And when you start getting up, I'm like, oh, yeah.
Chris Drinnan:No. No. Like, I haven't even no. I haven't burned out.
Rob Chartrand:No. Bless your heart.
Chris Drinnan:Like, because I go so I had this thing where for a while where I kept the calendar. And on the days where they were just so bad, I I was actually fantasizing about writing a a resignation letter, I put a red x on this calendar or whatever. And I like, I look back, and it's just sort of like
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. Whatever.
Rob Chartrand:A bad day.
Chris Drinnan:I go back and I look at them, like, oh, okay. There is a handful a year. Like, it and I'm going like I like and and I'm my lows are low. Like, I get kind of like it, and it can take me a bit to kinda come out of that kind of funk or whatever. But but honestly, like, I Monday morning, I'm back at the office excited to crack the word, excited to, like, okay, Lord.
Chris Drinnan:Like, Sunday was a write off. How like, what's what's next type thing. So I I feel like I've I've there's been some good habits and I think, yeah, I I don't think I've I don't think I've come so I will I'll refrain from referring to, like, I've been close to burnout because I realize I don't think I have. No. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:Knock on wood.
Geoff Dresser:Right.
Chris Drinnan:I hope there's not trials and hardships coming my way where I where I get close to that. So yeah. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:I mean, also, like, I've written a couple resignation letters in my time and they can be very satisfying. You just didn't turn them in?
Chris Drinnan:Once you've handed in or no?
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. One one I handed in. Yeah. I Oh. Like Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:So anyway, but, like, that that moment, yeah, man. Like, I'm in control. Not getting paid afterwards, that sucked. But, like, you know, the Yeah. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:The I I mean, for yeah. We we don't that's in a whole other podcast. Yeah. But but that's, like, ultimately, like, no. No.
Geoff Dresser:I'm
Chris Drinnan:See, after show conversation.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. And I can do this, and I can and I am in the Lord's hands. Yeah. And there's great freedom in that.
Rob Chartrand:I mean, we can talk about recommendations and practices in a moment. But I mean, Jeff and I had a conversation yesterday about the irony that we are talking about burnout when him and I are like in these nuts seasons right now. Like, I I mean, I was in Toronto for five days. I I flew out last Wednesday. Meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, and in the gaps, emails, emails, emails.
Rob Chartrand:And and it's March right now on campus, and so it's, like, marking and
Geoff Dresser:I'm currently missing a meeting right now.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. We're keeping Jeff out of a meeting right now. I was in the studio this morning at 7AM filming Leadership Essentials because our presenter yesterday, Jeff, bless his heart, his flight got canceled. So it got bumped in the evening, and so we couldn't film him yesterday. And so we're like, okay, dude.
Rob Chartrand:Fly in tomorrow tonight. And and so he got picked up at the airport. I took him out for supper last night. I drove out to Cairnport, got home at about 09:30, ten, did a little bit more emails, went to bed, got up at 5AM, came in here, did that filming, and now we're doing this recording. Like, it's just so, yeah, own worst enemy.
Rob Chartrand:Like, I can't just to say to our listeners, you know, I'm not being Pollyannaish about this idea that O'Bernard's avoidable. I mean, I just I'm I've got I'm making my own choices and I'm I'm I made my bed and I'm sleeping in it this week. But I can't I can't keep up with this pace. I just can't do it.
Geoff Dresser:Yeah. I know. Like, I'm in a season where I also like I've my role has changed here. And so some of that I'm hoping when I make that adjustment that things get easier, but I also know, okay, I'm not in, I don't have enough margin to sustain this long term. Yeah.
Geoff Dresser:And so I will, if it doesn't change, I'm going to have to make some adjustments. Yeah. But I'm also like, I'm watching my heart. I'm still optimistic. I'm still having fun.
Geoff Dresser:Like every day I I'm doing things that that that give life to me. And so when I when I lose that optimism, then I know, okay, I gotta I gotta do something right away to pull this
Rob Chartrand:one out. Let's do a rapid fire spitball solutions thing. What would you how do you avoid burnout? Like, I would say right away, like Sabbath. I gotta I gotta have a Sabbath every week.
Rob Chartrand:Like, and and God gave that as a gift to us, not necessarily on on a Saturday for believers in Christ. We have a new day in Christ, but I mean, a Shabbat, a day off, one day off in seven. I think that that's that's that's critical. And then I think even like seasons, rhythms throughout the year of rest where you break away and you take some time to stop doing work and take a break. But any other recommendations?
Geoff Dresser:Mean, I was going to say Sabbath and I love Mark Buchanan's book on Sabbath and cultivate Sabbath does not mean I'm going to finish all my work so I can rest. It's that discipline of being able to rest, even though there's still stuff that is undone. And I would say like, yeah, a Sabbath every week and little mini Sabbaths every day. Mhmm. And you need something like, yeah, get a hobby, something that you enjoy that that just brings life to you.
Geoff Dresser:And for you to be able to to do something for yourself every day to have that Sabbath.
Rob Chartrand:I've got a couch in my office and sometimes I turn the lights right off, put my feet up, put my head on a pillow, turn on some brown noise, and set my alarm for thirty thirty minutes. And I have a Oh, man. As a matter of fact, after this, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna take a half hour nap because I have a teacher class at 12:25. Right?
Rob Chartrand:So I
Geoff Dresser:power nap guy too.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. So, I mean, I I I think that that's just a great gift, a little rest, a little resty here and there
Chris Drinnan:to get
Rob Chartrand:you through the day. A little bump up. Right? Yeah. A little bump up that's not illegal.
Rob Chartrand:Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:For me, I'd have to say and this will need a little bit of an explanation, but I'd say supper club. So about, in 2017, when my son was born, we had some really good friends. He was my, old youth pastor. He's a pastor in our fellowship. Him and his son, showed up, like, the day we got home from the hospital with my son and this thing.
Chris Drinnan:And, anyways and what was born with supper club is this this get together where, you know, they brought pizza. We hung out for the evening, and it was great. You know, you know, I had two three well, three young children at the time. And we've been doing those, like, once a month or once every couple of months since 2017. And what's I love about them is that these are guys who are also in ministry and get it, but they're outside my local context.
Chris Drinnan:So, man, they they get it. It's a celebratory environment that my whole family, my wife loves. She's grown to love these guys, and my kids absolutely look forward to it. And we do we do concerts. One of them is really great with the guitar and has written, like, a plethora of incredible songs.
Chris Drinnan:And so he'll do a concert or we'll do worship and or or we'll divvy everybody up and we'll go to the garage and we'll do foosball and we'll spend two, three hours in there just tournament, like, foosball style just like and and we have trophies and we're always you know? And and it's filled with laughter and people commentate on the games. And and Where do you have?
Rob Chartrand:Where do you do it? Where do you do supper club?
Chris Drinnan:Oh, just at our house. Just at our house. Yeah. Foosball in the garage. Or we'll you know, if the weather's night, we'll have, like, a massive bonfire.
Chris Drinnan:We'll sit out there and we'll tell stories and, you know, probably keep the neighbors up and whatever. But it's it's I don't think I've realized how much I've leaned on that evening as a way of just releasing stress, relaxing, being human. And for me, the big win is I feel like often ministry is taking me away from my family or or I come home and I'm stressed and my my kids kinda pay the toll because dad's not maybe
Rob Chartrand:Yeah.
Chris Drinnan:As emotionally available or just doesn't wanna talk or whatever. And I go like, this is a big win because we're all in it together and my my kids love it and we're we're laughing. And so it's just it's been a delight. So
Rob Chartrand:So I have to ask you on that. Yeah. Like, you have to clean your house, you have to feed people, and then you have to do the dishes afterwards. Doesn't that make you even more stressful?
Chris Drinnan:I'm gonna get some yeah. I mean, my wife, Jenna, is incredible. She I mean, it's a little bit more anxious for her, but the the big thing was is when we moved to Moose Jaw, she had made the comment, well, like, those are your your friends and it's and it's great. And after ten years, like, it wasn't long. Like, at two years of doing supper clubs, and she's like, I find my she's like, I find myself looking forward to these because they've become my friends.
Chris Drinnan:And so when I that was I'm like, this is great. Like, this is So
Rob Chartrand:it's life giving. It's not, like one more thing
Chris Drinnan:you have to do. Okay. Like, these are these are guy I mean, these are guys that it doesn't matter if the house is a mess or whatever. Like, they're not like, they're they're family. Like, it's just there's no judgment there or whatever.
Chris Drinnan:It's it's easy. It's easy when they come.
Rob Chartrand:I think one of the things I want to say to our listeners is if you are in a season of burnout, you, I mean, just Google burnout and go to like an online, like look at the technical definition of what burnout is. And if you are close to the edge and you're experiencing those symptoms, you might need an intervention. And that intervention might look like talking to your spouse and saying, what's the way forward on this? We've got to let some things go. Or talking to your board or talking to your senior pastor or whoever your direct report is and having a frank conversation.
Rob Chartrand:Because if you don't have an intervention, it will intervene on you. The brain will get you. And so it's better that you'd get to it now rather than taking three months off or six months off because you're just fried. All of all of your adrenaline is shot and your body's ability to recover and recuperate and find good rhythms is shot. You've got to you've to fix it now.
Rob Chartrand:So my encouragement is find an intervention now and you might just say, oh, I can just pray it away. Well, no, the reality is that you are a whole person, heart, mind, soul and strength. Every part of your life matters and your physiological condition matters. And so you've got to you've got to figure out a way to deal with that part of you as well. You are a whole person.
Rob Chartrand:So I think and relationally too, like, right. So I think you've got to find a way to do that. So I I I would hope that our listeners would would consider that. I mean, we around the table, we have to take that advice as well for ourselves and and do an intervention, but to to get the help that you need to be able to overcome this. Well, guys, I think our time is running out and certainly we'd love to hear from our listeners about this conversation.
Rob Chartrand:If you had feedback on this conversation, you have something to add. We'd love to hear from you. So please, send us an email, at podcast@churchinthenorth.ca. Guys, thanks for joining me in the studio today.
Geoff Dresser:Thanks, Rob. Thanks, Chris. What a blessing to be here, guys. Good to see you.
Rob Chartrand:You've been listening to the Church in the North podcast, a production of Briarcrest College. To learn more about Briarcrest, visit briarcrest.ca. We all know that when something is good, it's worth sharing. So why not pass on today's episode to a ministry leader or someone who will find it helpful? Also, don't forget to leave us a review, share your comments, or hit that subscribe button.
Rob Chartrand:We love questions and suggestions, so email us at podcast@Briarcrest.ca. And for more information about podcast and our hosts, visit churchinthenorth.ca. Thanks for listening. Until next time.