Rob Chartrand (00:03.342)
Well, hey, we are so excited to have here on Church of the North, Michelle Dwyer. She is the lead pastor of Westlife Church in Calgary, Alberta. Michelle, welcome to Church in the North.
Michelle Dwyer (00:15.482)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Rob Chartrand (00:18.222)
Well, we wanna talk about a lot of things in our conversation today, but I first wanna hear your story and I want our listeners to hear your amazing story of your call into vocational ministry. Give us a summary of your journey. Every person's journey is unique and of course yours certainly is. So talk to us, how did you end up coming into ministry?
Michelle Dwyer (00:39.482)
I'm actually, okay, I actually lost your audio there for a second. Sorry, Rob. Coming into ministry, man, you know, it's so easy to see things when you look backwards. Looking forward, I would never have said that I was ever gonna be in vocational ministry like this at all. But I mean, the call to be a teacher was clear on my life as a small child. I would make up lesson plans and teach my brother and sister. I started teaching Sunday school when I was 12 years old because desperate churches will do things like that back in the 80s.
Rob Chartrand (00:44.942)
That's okay.
Michelle Dwyer (01:08.954)
and naturally led to, you know, women's ministry, small group leader, worship leader. The thing I never saw coming was ever being any kind of a preaching pastor, because even though I could teach high school, that was my thing, I could not get up in front of people to save my life, like could not just absolutely paralyzed by fear. But of course, I sometimes think that those things actually point to.
I look at children and I think maybe some of the things they struggle with actually points to their calling and destiny. Somehow it seems like the enemy of our souls must figure out where the call lies because it was so obviously an assignment against my call that as God continued to work on fear in my life and set me free from things.
The passion for others to know what he had done in my life was so overwhelming that it actually like overwrote the fear.
Rob Chartrand (02:10.606)
Yeah, you can keep going. Can you hear me?
Michelle Dwyer (02:13.178)
Yeah, you just went all pixely and so I was at the end of a sentence so I thought I can't hear you. I can't hear you.
Rob Chartrand (02:18.766)
yeah, just keep going and we'll clean it up at the end. So yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (02:23.738)
Okay, when it gets really bad, I can't even hear you. So, okay, so that was a full stop right there. I can talk more about specifically being called into vocational ministry.
Rob Chartrand (02:26.862)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (02:36.91)
So from there, how did you end up working specifically in ministry, like in a local church?
Michelle Dwyer (02:43.318)
Yeah, yeah, I think I was teaching I was teaching an adult literacy, teaching English to new Canadians and feeling like that was the perfect mission field. Meantime, volunteering about 25 hours a week at the church, because I loved it so much, but I couldn't see myself being vocationally there. And then a position came open in the church in Beaver Lodge. And it was like the minute I heard it was open, I knew God was calling me to it. It took me a good eight months to surrender to deal with the fear.
Rob Chartrand (03:10.382)
Okay.
Michelle Dwyer (03:12.794)
the doubts, yeah, just felt so much fear around stepping into ministry as a woman and even just releasing the freedom that comes with being a volunteer. We'll stay under the radar a little bit, everybody's thankful for you. It's a different level of target. It seems like once you step into it fully, but I did. And everybody around me breathed a sigh of relief, like wondering how long it was gonna take for me to get it. And yeah.
So I served in Beaver Lodge for eight years, I think, as associate pastor and loved it.
Rob Chartrand (03:44.078)
Okay, well, so prior to that, did you have any like theological training or did you grow into that afterwards or?
Michelle Dwyer (03:50.234)
Yeah, yeah, no, I am a lifelong lover of the word. I read the Bible from cover to cover by the time I was 11. It's the first time I finished reading the Bible. Just a bit of a nerd, but love the word. I could always experience the presence of God when I was reading and that was King James back then as a child. So I know that's a little quirky, but again, obviously God's calling my life. And then when I did my teaching degree, I did a double major in biblical studies just for fun.
Rob Chartrand (03:57.902)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (04:18.958)
Okay, wow. Yeah. So what was the Yeah, what was your role at Beaver Lodge when you jumped in?
Michelle Dwyer (04:20.314)
Yeah, so I had that background. Sorry.
Associate pastor, so I was in charge of all the lay ministry leaders, spiritual and emotional health, really for everything that wasn't kind of lead pastor, executive.
Rob Chartrand (04:38.574)
Yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay. So did that include preaching and teaching?
Michelle Dwyer (04:43.482)
Yeah, yeah, I preached once a month, at least once a month. And in the meantime, on the side, I was teaching a lot of workshops and conferences, teaching Holy Spirit encounters, things like that.
Rob Chartrand (04:58.094)
Yeah, yeah. Well, why don't you talk to us then beyond Beaver Lodge. How did the bridge happen from getting from Beaver Lodge to Westlife? I know there's a lot in that journey and in your story. So let's walk through that.
Michelle Dwyer (05:05.274)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (05:11.866)
Sure. There came a time when it's almost like once I said yes, the impetus just built really quickly and recognized that there might be something else for me just beyond where I was. And doing the traveling, I loved it. I still had teenagers at home then, so I wouldn't go more than once a month on the road. But it seemed like my husband and I both just really sensed in multiple ways that God was speaking us to be ready for transition and...
Rob Chartrand (05:20.174)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (05:33.966)
Okay.
Michelle Dwyer (05:41.85)
A few opportunities came up, but they never quite clicked. And so then I had it in my head, when our youngest graduates from high school, it makes sense. Well, we'll have to move anyway. But it was when he was in grade 12 that all of a sudden it just became so strong that my time in Bupro Lodge was done. But I didn't have the trapeze to clink like I was going to let go of. But what was I going to, you know? That was really confusing and disorienting for me. I mean, I had. There was nothing about working there that I didn't love.
Rob Chartrand (06:03.022)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (06:11.642)
Perfect. Loved it, loved the congregation, loved what I was doing. And without knowing that I was going to something else, it didn't make sense to me to resign there, but it got so strong that I felt like it was gonna be disobedience. You know, whatever is not a faith is sin. There was a point at which it was like, God is speaking to the point where it's like, this feels like the book of Acts. This is ridiculous. Like, I can't deny. And so I did resign and that was hard. You lose kind of a community at the same time when you do something like that. And there wasn't the...
Rob Chartrand (06:23.374)
Right.
Michelle Dwyer (06:40.378)
surety and clarity of what I was going to. I'm hard on the congregation because I think it was hard for them to understand why would you do this? The only thing I knew to do immediately was write the book that I had been starting off and on for years. And I knew that clear as a bell, but I didn't want to tell anybody because it's really foolish to tell people you're going to write a book. I did once and somebody said, you know, nobody gets published, right?
Rob Chartrand (06:55.374)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (07:05.326)
Create. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (07:07.45)
So literally as then August 31st, September 1st, I went into my office and sat down and started to field manuscript. And I wrote for four months and I finished.
Rob Chartrand (07:16.494)
Hmm, wow.
Michelle Dwyer (07:18.042)
I think it was December 17th, I finished my first draft. Me? I resigned before COVID and then COVID hit. So that also was confusing for everybody, no matter what your story. In the meantime, I was still getting approached by other churches, which had been happening, but nothing was like, yeah, that's it.
Rob Chartrand (07:20.974)
So was this during like COVID or after COVID or before COVID?
Rob Chartrand (07:28.718)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (07:32.878)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (07:42.202)
So I thought, well, I was finishing a master's at Ambrose, so I should go full bore while I tidy up the publishing process and finish my degree, my master's in leadership at Ambrose. And again, still having interviews and thinking, okay, now it's happening. And I had two, what I would call really beautiful and safe job offers. One was a lead pastor position, which was a little surprising. I mean, surprising to me. And one was an associate pastor and a really...
Rob Chartrand (08:00.942)
Okay.
Michelle Dwyer (08:11.674)
sweet would have been a safe place for me to go I think and I knew the Lord was saying no to both of those I wrestled so I gave both of them a no.
And the next week I found out I had stage three colon cancer. So that isn't what I felt like the Lord was speaking to me, Rob. That wasn't part of the prophetic word. And so I began treatment and that was all kinds of awful as anyone knows, he's going through anything like that or watch someone they love. But it was actually during my treatment that the fellow who is the lead pastor here at Westlife.
Rob Chartrand (08:28.878)
Wow.
Rob Chartrand (08:33.166)
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (08:37.71)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (08:43.47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (08:51.194)
contacted me and he said, I'm going to resign and I think you should apply. And I was like, dude. Yeah, I don't know if all our listeners do or if I should throw him under the bus, but so we'll call him dude. He'll love that if he ever listens. okay. It's our friend Bryce. He calls me and he says, Michelle, I'm resigning and I really think you should consider it. And I was like, you're kind of crazy. Hello. I'm a woman filled with the spirit.
Rob Chartrand (08:55.33)
Well, we both know who he is, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (09:05.774)
Well, you can say his name. Everyone knows. Yeah, it's our friend Bryce. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (09:20.57)
There's a spectrum of where we are theologically on those things in the Alliance. And I'm in cancer treatment. So I think, I don't, are you just trying to make me feel better? Cause I have cancer. Like I never said that out loud cause I wouldn't, I told them after the fact.
Rob Chartrand (09:31.694)
Right, yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (09:35.898)
But yeah, that started me on the journey to coming to Westlife.
Rob Chartrand (09:39.918)
Wow, wow. Well, I mean, there's just so much in that. I mean, I wanna go back just real quick on a couple of things. First of all, you mentioned that you were doing like conference speaking and all that. Could you flesh that out just a little bit?
Michelle Dwyer (09:46.202)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (09:54.682)
Sure, invited specifically to different conferences just to be a keynote speaker, usually along the line of spiritual and emotional health, spiritual formation. I did a lot of weekend retreats for women's things, because that's an obvious fit. What eventually became my book was a workshop that I would lead Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Teaching. My book is called Fierce Hope. But...
Rob Chartrand (10:18.254)
And what was that about? What was the topic?
Michelle Dwyer (10:24.698)
incorporating all the tools for that God had taught me and worked into my life for my own spiritual and emotional health. I secretly struggled with a lot of depression. When I was younger, even as a child, people had identified it, but no one thought kids get depressed in the 70s. So, spiritual and emotional health is really important to me. And I was also teaching Holy Spirit encounters and I don't know.
Rob Chartrand (10:43.246)
Hmm. Hmm. Wow. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (10:53.37)
you can edit out anything you don't want me to say. But a lot of churches, you don't, okay, so I better mean it if I'm saying it. Well a lot of churches, a lot, a significant number of churches, I started to get a lot of invitations from churches to see if I would come and preach on a Sunday because they wanted to know how their congregation would respond to a woman preaching as they were exploring what it would look like for women to be in ministry roles in their church. I would be invited to do that because,
Rob Chartrand (10:56.462)
we don't edit on anything. Sometimes we rarely do. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (11:22.842)
A, I could do it, and then I would leave and the church could process it and it wouldn't have a personal impact on anybody. And I honestly consider that a privilege. I love doing it.
Rob Chartrand (11:32.654)
Yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay, so now we're going to go on a sidebar and we'll come back to everything in a minute. While you're at Ambrose, you did an independent study. You wrote a paper that you got credit for and it was grounded qualitative research of women in ministry. And there were seven participants in your study. See, I've read it. And one of your findings was,
Michelle Dwyer (11:56.474)
Good job, I'm so impressed.
Rob Chartrand (12:02.67)
when it comes to churches embracing women in ministry, in other words, getting to that point where they're comfortable with it and whatnot. For many of them, it wasn't necessarily a theological shift that got them there, but it was actually a an experiential shift. They actually had women serving in ministry in their church, like they either came in or whatnot, or outstate, they were preaching more often or whatnot. And then they just realized, this is okay.
Like they just, it just settled in, right? Is that, is that an affair assessment of, of kind of the results of one of the, one of your points? Say it better. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (12:37.082)
Yeah, I would like nuance it just a little. That's fair. I spent a lot of time working on that. I think the important nuance for me is that when I first started preaching in Beaver Lodge, there were of course people that was a completely new experience for them and that's a rural community. Oil, gas, farmers, it was a new idea. And there were some people that were not sure about a woman preaching and then somebody else would say, but she's good at it. So she's an exception.
Rob Chartrand (12:55.278)
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (13:06.97)
and I recoil from that theology, right? Like, no, so that's why I get a little picky on how we word this. It would be that people, once they experienced a woman operating in her gifts and her anointing without offense, they would revisit their theology. And I think that's consistent with Acts 15. We don't just, you know, go, we have an experience, therefore we throw out the word of God. We take the word of God.
Rob Chartrand (13:10.798)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (13:23.054)
Okay, okay, even better.
Michelle Dwyer (13:33.082)
and our experience and what we see the Holy Spirit doing and we wrestle with it like the Council in Jerusalem. So yeah, just love to be very... Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. What do we do with these women who seem anointed to preach? And I think it just helps people revisit some of those passages that we do find challenging and that all the women in my research really wrestled with as well.
Rob Chartrand (13:36.782)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we've got all these Gentiles. They're filled with the spirit. What do we do? They're filled with the spirit. Can we send them home? Or do we wrestle with this? Yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (13:56.75)
Sure, sure. And hey, I do want to acknowledge, I think it's important that we do acknowledge we have listeners here who have a complementarian perspective and those who have an egalitarian perspective. And I mean, on this podcast, we're not trying to shift your views, but we just want to acknowledge the reality of women getting in ministry. And of course, I do have an egalitarian perspective. I've had guests on the...
Michelle Dwyer (14:03.898)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Rob Chartrand (14:23.31)
on the podcast who are much more strongly complimentarian, but we know we keep the main thing, the main thing, which is Christ and all of that. But we are gonna talk about it in this conversation and I'm gonna, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad we are, so yeah, go ahead.
Michelle Dwyer (14:29.466)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (14:34.682)
Yeah, well, we have to, right? Yeah. And I do. Sorry, I keep talking over there. I just I just also want to say I have a deep respect for the wrestle that it is great, like I respect people that have landed in a different place and that it is something we must wrestle with. I don't take that lightly at all.
Rob Chartrand (14:46.958)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (14:55.15)
Yeah. Yeah. And even if you're from a, a complimentarian position, like it may be a soft or a hard, there's a whole spectrum there. And you acknowledge that in your paper. even if you are, I mean, there's still relevance for this conversation for the women in your church and their role in ministry and how God can use them. yeah. So anyway, that being said, let's keep going. but, but yeah, so that experience of being exposed to, you know, competent, gifted women.
Michelle Dwyer (15:01.754)
That's right. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (15:09.594)
Mm -hmm.
That's right.
Michelle Dwyer (15:16.634)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (15:24.91)
being used by God to change lives does make you think more reflectively on your theology, right? And so you were doing that. Churches were bringing you in to do that. Well, you're a competent communicator. Let's get you in and we'll see where it goes. So was that helpful to those churches?
Michelle Dwyer (15:35.77)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (15:41.978)
They're at least as good as we can find. Yes, it was for all of them. I would say that all of them are now, the ones that I can think of are all in a different place than they were at the time. Like it was helpful to move their congregation through the process for sure. And I mean, for me, I'm not a vigilante. I have no desire, I have no ax to grind, no desire to change anyone's mind, but that God would use me for people who were looking to figure this out.
Rob Chartrand (15:57.742)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (16:10.522)
to make space for other women is a great delight. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (16:13.262)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's undeniable. This is your lived experience. So you can't not think about this on a consistent basis, right? Yeah, so, okay, so your cancer treatment, you feel like the least likely candidate for Westlife.
Michelle Dwyer (16:22.298)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (16:34.266)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (16:35.79)
Women, you know, women lead pastor and all that, because there aren't a lot of women lead pastors in the Alliance. We're still kind of breaking ground with this nationally, denominationally. Yeah, how in the job interview, I remember in our conversation, you were asked the question, how are you going to lead as a woman? And I loved your response. So give us your response. What did you say?
Michelle Dwyer (16:45.017)
You've got five in Canada.
Michelle Dwyer (16:49.922)
You
Michelle Dwyer (16:58.082)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
I just said I don't know how to lead any other way.
Rob Chartrand (17:04.174)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So as a woman and lead pastor, how has this been different for you than other lead, other pastoral roles? Like what's different now?
Michelle Dwyer (17:06.394)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (17:20.506)
different from being in the associate role. I mean, there's a lot. The buck stops with you. Obviously. I think there was a safety for me in being tucked in under somebody else. There's just a little bit of protection from that edge. Yeah. Yep. And I could have stayed there. I had an offer at the same time for a really sweet associate role. But as I wrestled through it with a pastoral coach, at the end of the day, I recognized that.
Rob Chartrand (17:23.15)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (17:33.454)
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (17:42.382)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (17:46.682)
a lot in my life was leading towards this and I actually did want the opportunity if it was given to me. So how do I lead as a woman? It is different. This is a very white collar congregation. So a lot of them do work with female executives. I was adamant in my interview process, like I wouldn't come if the board wasn't 100 % on board. I have no desire to fight that. And they did a very congregational model of
Rob Chartrand (17:57.006)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:01.646)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (18:05.518)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (18:15.45)
the Candidating Weekend, which I honestly kind of loved. There was an open mic Q &A. They had at her with nothing bar, no hoes barred. They could ask me anything they wanted. And that was fun. And then they also pulled the congregation. And I had a personal number that I was like, if it's not past this percentage, it's probably not gonna be for me. And it was, well, I can tell you it was 82 % of the congregation was really in favor of the hire. So I really felt like God confirmed it very clearly.
Rob Chartrand (18:24.398)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:44.462)
Yeah, what was your number?
Michelle Dwyer (18:45.626)
Yeah. 80. Yeah. So just barely. No one's asked me that before. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (18:48.046)
Okay, all right, there we go. Yeah, yeah, well, I appreciate your transparency. Well, I mean, it's a challenging question of how do you lead as a woman and you know, I've talked about this before, I'll talk about my own experience back in the day.
When I was studying philosophy at the University of Regina and I was exposed in the philosophy department I mean if anyone knows the philosophy department there, it's it's it's very feminist. It's very socialist It's so it's got its leanings in a certain direction in the field and and I remember reading an article by Andrea Dworkin and she was talking about and she's a strong feminist anyone knows familiar with her writings not a Christian author bunny bunny bunny stretch, but she she talked about
If you're a woman in leadership, it's very difficult in, in, and she's writing in her current cultural context. So that was, this is early nineties. Okay. But a woman in leadership, it's, you're almost darned if you do and darned if you don't, you're in trouble no matter what you do, because if you try and lead like a man, so doubling down, powering up, all of that sort of a thing, you're, you're treated as a, well, you know, a B with a
scratch. Okay, right. That's what they'll call you. Right. So, right. But if you try and lead like a woman, she would say, which is very much more maternal and caring and nurturing, then you're not taken seriously. You're that type of leadership style isn't an appropriate leadership style, say in the corporate world or whatnot. And so you're darned if you do and you darned if you don't. And I remember reading that article, I thought, huh, I not thought about this. I mean, I'm in my 20s. I'm new in the church. I'm still pretty new in my faith and just
Michelle Dwyer (20:06.33)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm. 100%.
Rob Chartrand (20:35.054)
And then that article really had an impact on my thinking going forward in me thinking through what can I do in my life and in my leadership to continue to elevate the leadership of women, whatever style they choose. And maybe there's a hybrid, you know, there's something in the middle, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, between the two horns is where we go, right? Yeah, let's talk about that, right? But I mean, that was really...
Michelle Dwyer (20:58.458)
We should talk about that.
Rob Chartrand (21:03.63)
transformative for me and it wasn't coming from within the church, it was coming from without. And so yeah, I've always been just curious about this idea. How do we lead as women? And of course, I have two daughters and a wife who are very much involved in ministry and I support them. And I'm just always thoughtful of that. And then of course, in my ministry, I've tried to be thoughtful of that. So how do you respond to that? Is Andrea crazy? Give us your feedback.
Michelle Dwyer (21:30.746)
She's absolutely right. But here's the trick. The church isn't even the secular world. Like it really is important that it's not. So I have been accused of being the power hungry name that you used. And that was horrifying and shocking to me because it's never crossed my mind that this was about power. Every single one of the women in my research were so reluctant.
Rob Chartrand (21:45.902)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (21:57.102)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (21:57.69)
to step into ministry simply because of the challenges. Not a single one of them was like, man, I want that role so that I can run the church. No, it was never, never on the radar. And the tenderheartedness is really important because if we're actually gonna be part of God's redemption story in the church, I could harden myself and buckle down to publicly behave in that like,
Rob Chartrand (22:12.566)
Hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (22:27.194)
lead like a man posture, but that wouldn't even be godly order. I've not been created to be a man, I've been created to be a woman. And so for me to show up that way would actually in, I firmly believe, quench the work of the spirit in me and through me, the necessary hardening, not that we don't have to buckle down and do hard things, but would actually really limit my capacity to be sensitive to the spirit.
Rob Chartrand (22:43.854)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (22:57.434)
And I wouldn't be expressing what God has designed for me to express. If I was just to try to be even like another woman, that would quench that. The same is for you to try to be like another man. And how much more when God has created us uniquely. The other end of that is interesting. For sure, it's not without its bumps that idea that a woman leaves, I think you use the words with more nurturing, tender heartedness.
Rob Chartrand (23:24.526)
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (23:27.354)
I see that. I see that at work in this congregation for sure. And I've asked other people, I've invited a fair amount of candor on that. I would say that I've cried in board meetings and I don't think that maybe the other two previous lean pastors that I know might be that prone to, you know, tears in the board meeting. That's uncomfortable for me personally. I have to deal with my pride there. But also just acknowledge that.
Rob Chartrand (23:47.246)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (23:55.322)
that tenderness is actually part of my leadership. And it's been a positive. It's been really positive. I had one person say to me, I don't know how to work with you. I don't understand you. And I was like, I think that's probably because I'm a woman, I'm sorry. And we persisted through it and got to a healthy space. The people describe my preaching is different. My...
Rob Chartrand (24:01.71)
Hmm. Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (24:19.194)
Sermon examples are different. I'm not very good with basketball examples. I used a childbirth example one week and I was like, I hope this isn't too far. But what was so interesting is that every father and mother in the room responded to that illustration and the single people were gracious. Or the people who hadn't had children. So it shows up, but it's supposed to show up. And the struggle is for me to also embrace that God has made me this way, because I did work in the corporate world. I know how to do the other thing.
Rob Chartrand (24:46.798)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, if it's any consolation, I've cried in a few board meetings as well. But yeah, I'm a big softie, so I do cry. And that's not a bad thing. I always laugh at the idea is that when people refer to crying, they're like, you're being so emotional. And I always work with premarital counseling with couples to say to them, so,
Michelle Dwyer (24:55.706)
If not before, during and after.
Michelle Dwyer (25:03.642)
Mm -mm.
Rob Chartrand (25:15.758)
Is a person who cries emotional but a person who's angry not emotional?
Michelle Dwyer (25:20.81)
man, I've got an extra grind right there. Preach Rob, preach. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (25:22.606)
Yeah, like, like, like anger is an emotion. So don't say that, you know, only when there's tears, you're being emotional or responding emotionally. There is a spectrum of emotions that we respond out of both men and women.
Michelle Dwyer (25:31.834)
Mm -hmm.
And God has a full spectrum of emotions and we're created in his image. Yeah, our restoration is about learning how to manage, respond, navigate and not manipulate like so much to it.
Rob Chartrand (25:39.886)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Chartrand (25:47.918)
Yeah, yeah, totally. So yeah, absolutely. Nope, it's a conversation. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (25:49.69)
Can I come back to the one thing you said, sorry, about your awareness, your awareness of how you would be part of God's redemption story as a man, and how you respond and pay attention. It's really, really important, because that was something else that I came up in my research across the board, was that in order for a woman to be able to move into a healthy ministry, there had to be men who...
Rob Chartrand (26:09.102)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (26:16.89)
navigated that, contended for her and partnered with her. And that was consistent. And I know I've seen some people kind of wristle like, patriarchy. And I'm like, no, that's not about the patriarchy. That is, again, godly order. We were designed to be co -labours and the restoration of what has been broken through what people would call patriarchy, which is a thing. The restoration will also come through a healthy co -labouring. And we see it all through scriptures. So thank you for doing that.
Rob Chartrand (26:20.142)
Hmm. Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (26:44.238)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope that I've done it more than I I can imagine I haven't done it perfectly. But I'm being redeemed as I continue the work.
Michelle Dwyer (26:46.074)
It's important.
Michelle Dwyer (26:59.866)
Well, and we don't know what we don't know. So sure, there's been a lot of people that have been like, I'm all for women. And then I've had enough of a relationship to say, can I just share with you that when you talk this way, that's actually not helpful. And it was like, my word, thank you for telling me, because we don't know what we don't know. So humility is good.
Rob Chartrand (27:02.701)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (27:12.622)
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. Let's talk about how you do lead your congregation. And it's as a woman, you lead your congregation in a unique way. And you know, I've talked about this. You've talked about your relentless desire to take people to where they have been with God and your real emphasis on formation.
in all of your sermons. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Michelle Dwyer (27:47.098)
Yeah, relentless desire to take people where I've been with God.
Michelle Dwyer (27:53.178)
Information does not bring transformation. And so when I teach, I mean, and I love information is important when I teach. So I kind of have a few, a process that I go through in my head. There is information that I bring when I preach and that's grounded in the word of God. And then what I pray for is an impartation, which is the spirit work.
Rob Chartrand (27:57.518)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (28:19.354)
that can only happen. Paul says, well, I didn't come to you with eloquence. It wasn't going to work, right? But when the spirit moves, the spirit moves. And all that we know, our best sermons haven't been the ones that were the most effective as far as what we would gauge ourselves, right? So that deep desire, a lot of prayer, that there would be an impartation, that the true work of the Spirit of God comes through us.
Rob Chartrand (28:34.126)
Right.
Michelle Dwyer (28:47.546)
and impart something to the people. And we see that all through the book of Acts and a lot of conversation about it in the epistles. And so information and impartation. And then I always do some kind of application and I do it right in the service, not to the degree I would do in a workshop, but there is an ending at which I lead people through some sort of a prayer or a reflection, get the worship team up. And we do some of the process right there in the service.
Rob Chartrand (28:50.67)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (29:11.706)
And I always create a sermon resource that people can take home and take that application to a next step in their own private time with God or their small groups. Some of the small groups are doing it. And that's just so fun for me. It's effective. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (29:24.782)
Yeah. So what's it been like? I'm going off script here a bit, but I mean, what's it been like being a lead pastor and having to come up with sermons on a consistent basis? Like a lot of sermons. And you're probably in your first few years of doing this. What's that been like for you?
Michelle Dwyer (29:38.202)
Hehehehehe
Michelle Dwyer (29:42.394)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (29:47.994)
I wish I could quote the guy because it would make me sound smarter. There's a podcast I was listening to yesterday. I was a very smart person, but he talked about the sermon you write this week, you didn't research this week. It's a lifetime of relationship with God and knowledge of the Word. So I can't imagine doing that at 25. But as someone who's read the Word and taught the Word in Sunday school, small groups, workshops, part -time preaching,
Rob Chartrand (29:59.79)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (30:06.542)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (30:17.274)
It is relentless, but the capacity and the resources there. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:18.926)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (30:22.99)
Right. So you have a huge cache that you draw on.
Michelle Dwyer (30:27.322)
Well, yeah, it's surprising how much it just comes, yeah, and then there's this, and then 1 Peter says this, and then I read about the guy who, you know, the commentary that had that perspective. So it's not, I don't think I'm an academic genius by any stretch, but there's a deep well. And I mean, if you're gonna, we're gonna do candor here, if it's helpful for people. I go through the same process every single week. I hardcore Sabbath on Monday, otherwise I'd start my sermon then, because I'm scared. But that's the very principle of Sabbath, is we trust God to provide.
Tuesday is so full of meetings I get to the end of the day and go, my word, I didn't even like spend a significant chunk of time in my passage. Wednesday I block out the morning and just go hardcore on coming up with something. Thursday I'm like, I'll never have this together good enough by the weekend. Friday I'm like, man, this would be great if I had more time. And Sunday you preach it.
Rob Chartrand (31:13.774)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got it. Nailed it. So so you must have the you. Yeah, but you must have a longer like you. You talk to me about your your master planning of preaching your preaching schedule. Like do you take some time to get away and block things out or how does that work for you?
Michelle Dwyer (31:16.89)
Yep, every week. But I love preaching. Sorry.
Michelle Dwyer (31:35.227)
I've heard of people doing that. I wish I knew how to work that in. I have a lot of material that I've thought, I could do this series and then I can kind of redo that or I did a workshop on this. It never quite works that way. And I want to sound smarter. I think people sound amazing that can write out a whole sermon series for a year and add all the verses and key passages. But for me, it seems to be season by season.
Rob Chartrand (31:38.766)
Okay.
Michelle Dwyer (32:03.354)
and I'm already asking the Lord about the fall and feel like he's not giving me a lot of clarity, but I sure am clear about the summer now. So I feel like he leads me seasonally and I would like it to be different because it sounds smart and clever and like good leadership, but it has not worked for me that way. When I have laid it out that way, he's had to redirect me every time.
Rob Chartrand (32:22.702)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's fair. Like I would six months to a year out or whatnot, I would have like general ideas of where it could go, you know, and I'd have a kind of a scratch pad of how I would do that. But I wasn't I those who could map out on entire year, that was always amazing to me that they could do that. It's it's typically the expositional preachers, or those people who have a really big team who can help them do all of that. But
Michelle Dwyer (32:31.546)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (32:44.73)
Mm -hmm.
Rob Chartrand (32:50.19)
Yeah, I could never ever do that. Maybe one series at a time I would block it out at least and provide that to my media people, but I would never be able to, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (32:54.938)
Yeah. Yeah. I can do that series at a time. Here's where I'm going. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (33:04.334)
Yeah. So one of the areas you're particularly passionate about, I mean, I think this comes out of your conference speaking, it's also coming out of your book. I mean, it's obviously a leaning in your preaching is spiritual and emotional health for leaders. Why is this important for you?
Michelle Dwyer (33:22.618)
Heheheheh
Michelle Dwyer (33:28.122)
I just don't think we can do it effectively if we haven't gone there with God. There's so much we bring into the room. And it's not like we're a finished work in progress ever because, you know, he's taking us from glory to glory till we see him face to face. That's when we'll fully be like him. But our unresolved stuff hurts the people we serve. And that's just a really hard truth. When the pressure's on,
Rob Chartrand (33:33.39)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (33:51.854)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (33:57.082)
that broken stuff will come out and those broken places will collide with the broken places in other people. And unless we know how to meet with the Lord in our broken places, it's humbling and we have them. And allow Him to do His work in us, there's collateral damage and we see it all through the church. And the cost is high to the people we serve, to the cause of the gospel, to the glory of God. And you know,
Rob Chartrand (34:26.094)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (34:27.578)
As those broken places are revealed and pressed on, when we invite him into them, those spaces, it becomes a redemption story. Even when we have to go back and clean up our messes and, you know, apologize and do some of those humble things. It brings a lot of glory to God. It's not that we don't mess up and it's not that those places don't get revealed, but when we deal with them in a godly and healthy way, it always brings good fruit.
Rob Chartrand (34:36.982)
Hmm. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (34:44.846)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (34:56.398)
Yeah. So talk to me about the kind of the process of spiritual and emotional health. Like what is your process in helping people to do that to, because I know you, I mean, you also used to do the spiritual, what were they called with the Alliance? The, not celebrate, recover the, SoulCare, thank you. Yeah, that the whole world. Yeah. So talk a little bit about that. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (35:17.146)
the soul care. Yeah, yeah, that's a tricky. Yeah, it's just a tricky term, because that's very much the title of Rob Reimer's book. And I've worked with Rob, and I've spoken at conferences with Rob. So we've talked about this, that we have a similar pathway, but different methods.
Rob Chartrand (35:30.446)
Yeah, it's trademarked. So yeah, yeah. So talk about yours.
Michelle Dwyer (35:36.25)
Yeah, so, you know, nobody wants to get emotional health until they realize they don't have some. So when a person is in that space, it's a lot easier to discover what is the pain? What are you experiencing right now? And so what we do when we identify our pain is we identify the person who caused the pain. Really clearly, and that's okay, that's necessary. We need to identify that.
But it's almost always in the what it made me feel. So I have developed a tool, it's in my book, if anybody wants to know more. And it's actually on my website too, I think, michelledweyer .ca. A healthy lament would be the short way to say it. Pour out your heart to God. What's hurting right now? Okay, name it. Who caused it? You might blame yourself, you might blame someone else.
Rob Chartrand (36:19.598)
Okay.
Michelle Dwyer (36:31.322)
And blame is even a strong word because a lot of us Christians know to not do that. But if there was someone who had something to do with his pain, who would they be? And sometimes it's accusation against God, which is completely legitimate. We also see that in scripture. And then I lead people through, okay, if I'm going to forgive that person, I do obviously a lot more teaching around forgiveness. But if I was to name the offender and what they did,
Rob Chartrand (36:40.078)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (36:59.29)
And it made me feel and Rob, when you get to the, it made me feel, we will find the root pain in our life because I could take you through this with five different scenarios in your life. The grade four teacher, the youth pastor I had, that woman when I was in college and every single time you might nuance the words a little bit, but what it made you feel was the same.
Rob Chartrand (37:03.31)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (37:23.002)
And therein we begin to discover the main strategy of the enemy in our lives. And recognizing that is so huge to disarming it. We don't disarm it by our own willpower and pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps. A dominant theme in my life has been I don't want to be a burden and a problem. Maybe sounds really innocuous to someone else, but boy, that will show up everywhere. Do you know where I'm a burden and a problem?
Rob Chartrand (37:32.142)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (37:44.302)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (37:51.866)
to everybody who doesn't think I should be a woman of ministry, to everybody who does not want me to propel church growth for every, like all of a sudden it's like, no, it's actually everywhere. And that beginning of unraveling that lie happened for me when I was postpartum and just at rock bottom, which again is where we discover our broken voices. And when I began to discover that lie, I had to bring it to the father and say, this is why I experienced.
Rob Chartrand (37:54.126)
Right.
Michelle Dwyer (38:19.674)
I know it's a lie because it's not what you say is true.
Rob Chartrand (38:22.702)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (38:23.77)
But I don't know how. If I knew how to fix it, I'd have fixed it by now, because I think I was 35 then. I need you, Jesus. So I break agreement with this lie. I ask you to take it away from me, and I ask you to tell me what is the truth. And the word that God spoke to me then was, you're delightful. And I can laugh, and other people will be like, yeah, that's so obvious to me. I am not delightful to people when I am provoking and disrupting your comfort.
But I can remind myself that the Father says I'm delightful, even though I'm quirky, even though, you know, all these things. So that encounter with God who speaks the truth to us as we need to know it, and I will lead people through this and they will get their own unique truth that God is speaking to them and it becomes this thing that you can grow into. And you know, every time I grow into a new level of leadership, I get pushed on all the same old places. It's a shorter recovery journey.
Rob Chartrand (38:55.342)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (39:11.178)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (39:19.662)
Yeah, yeah. So there's an element of self -reflection and identifying common themes of the voice of the enemy, whatever that is. So maybe it is, I felt shame. I felt shame, right? And so I feel shame in certain environments regularly. That might even be a self -confession right now. Maybe that's what it is. Growing up in poverty, you feel a lot of shame. So...
Michelle Dwyer (39:21.018)
Is that helpful?
Michelle Dwyer (39:33.53)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (39:44.442)
Yeah, probably. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (39:49.614)
And then and then in that is then identifying the truth, what the father is truly saying to you as a counter narrative to that. And then confessing. So confessing is such an important part of that is what I hear you saying.
Michelle Dwyer (40:05.114)
Yeah, confession, acknowledge it, breaking agreement with a lie is the phrase I always use, right? Because it's a spiritual thing. Rob, a lot of counselors can say, man, you've got a lot of shame in your life and here's five different ways that you can pull up your bootstraps and fix this. It's quite another thing to say in the name of Jesus. I break agreement with a lie. In the name of Jesus, I command this out of my life and Spirit of God, will you speak to me? Because when the Spirit speaks, His words bring a strength and a power.
Rob Chartrand (40:08.846)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (40:18.51)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (40:31.61)
that is quite transformative. This is not self -help. This is an encounter with God that leads to transformation. So we'll do this at the end of a service. Sorry.
Rob Chartrand (40:31.63)
Right.
Rob Chartrand (40:36.078)
That's right. And you're not in, yeah. And you're not in denial either, because you, you're inviting lament as well. So lament is very appropriate, but we don't live in lament. We live in hope. And so how do you get to the other side of lament is through truth telling confession, hearing the father. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Beautiful. Okay. What's the name of your book?
Michelle Dwyer (40:45.562)
Huge.
Michelle Dwyer (40:51.706)
Yeah, yeah. Forgiving those who have been part of the pain. Yeah. Sorry. Fierce hope.
Rob Chartrand (41:02.03)
Fierce hope. Okay, we'll put that in the show notes and then you have your own website michelledwyer .com.
Michelle Dwyer (41:05.562)
Thank you. .ca. Yeah. Yeah, don't go to michelledwyer .com. She has a very different profession. Somebody is going to go look it up.
Rob Chartrand (41:09.102)
Even better!
Rob Chartrand (41:14.478)
Okay. Dot CA everybody. Okay. So you also have said that prayer is a growing emphasis in your church and this grows out of your own, obviously out of your own experience and your own desire. What's this starting to look like in your church and what's the impact?
Michelle Dwyer (41:37.306)
I just absolutely believe that nothing significant happens without prayer. And we see it all through church history. If you study revival, there's always somebody praying first, always, always, always. And it didn't have to be impressive, but it did have to be faithful.
Rob Chartrand (41:50.926)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (41:54.202)
And so obviously cultivating a culture of prayer in your own life is critically important. It just never works to try to lead people somewhere you don't know yourself. And I think it's fun to lead people in a healthier understanding of how fun prayer can be because it's not a monologue. Learning how to listen and hear the voice of the Father and have a conversation using scripture, anything like that. So it was important to the hiring committee when they hired me. It's an important part of my life. So I am.
Rob Chartrand (42:13.87)
Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (42:22.062)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (42:23.002)
simply making it a part of our culture. We have prayer every Thursday, everybody, staff, we're doing it. It doesn't matter how busy we are, because I'm busy too. And then we have a few corporate prayer times and you know, Rob, they're not huge. I'm not going to pretend, you know. But those faithful people that feel called to it are really stepping into it. And I just think faithfulness and consistency and you don't stop. You just keep doing it and it will continue to grow. And...
And I hear it in the language of the congregation and I hear I see people stepping forward and saying, I wonder if this is something we should pray about together. And we've done services that are more a celebration of praise and prayer service, which in a congregation our size, I guess works. In a way it might not with 2000, but I don't know. I haven't tried it there. Maybe I'll try it someday and let you know.
Rob Chartrand (42:58.798)
Hmm. Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (43:07.438)
Yeah, yeah.
Right. Yeah, well, it is a challenge. Well, I mean, what if revival happens and you have to empty the parking lot? So that's a challenge.
Michelle Dwyer (43:18.586)
Yes, yes. I believe for it, Rob. I believe to see more revival in our time. Absolutely.
Rob Chartrand (43:24.494)
Yeah, yeah. Now your church is also, it's multi -generational. Maybe you have some larger pockets of certain generations than others. But I know that you have a huge heart for emerging leaders. You probably play a game every Sunday, spot the emerging leader in the room, or the emerging young adult in the room, and make a beeline for them. So talk to us about that. How does this play out in your life and in your ministry?
Michelle Dwyer (43:31.29)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (43:51.93)
Yeah, I love, I just love, I guess what we often call next gen leadership. We do have a multi -generational church. There's obviously that strong, well, I shouldn't say obviously, but it seems like we have them in the Alliance Church. Those seniors that pray and give and love and serve. We're missing young families post -COVID. It's not been easy to consistently get them back. On Sunday mornings, it seems like sports happen on Sundays now, which they didn't when my kids were little.
But let me talk to you about the 20 -somethings. Those are probably my favorite. If anybody in my congregation listens to this, I'm sorry. I love you too. We all have the favorite child that we have to pretend is not, no. I love these young adults. And we've got a handful here and they're such caners. And I invite them into leadership. When I came, there was someone on the interview committee who was 23 and I was like,
Rob Chartrand (44:22.446)
Yes.
Rob Chartrand (44:48.366)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (44:48.634)
Okay, I'm paying attention to this church. Like, what are they doing here that they value this? We have an elder who's young, not young in his faith, because that's scripturally important. He's a mature believer for his age, but he's on the board and learning. And he's so excited because people have always told him he's called to ministry and he has zero desire to preach. He's a finance guy. And he's discovering that we need finance guys in the body of Christ. And there's a place in that that's ministry. Like, is that not exciting?
Rob Chartrand (45:07.726)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (45:11.95)
Wastre due. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (45:15.386)
And we had a service recently where we had several of our young adults share testimony of how they've experienced God in the past year and growth in their lives. I think we have a young adult, like that would be someone between 18 and 35 on every team in every area of leadership right now. I do meet with the young adults group twice a month. I know that sounds like a big time commitment, but I don't have to do any prep. I just have to show up.
Rob Chartrand (45:31.598)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (45:44.75)
Okay, yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (45:45.755)
And so for me, that's my volunteer time. I wouldn't miss it. I do sometimes, but get together with them. Like if there's a demographic that wants to have robust conversations and doesn't think they know it all, it's amazing. It's so fun. So we often go over the sermon resource that I've provided, but we talk about whatever's on their mind and there's no topic that's off bounds. So talk about rewarding. Yeah, it's like a small group. Yeah, at the best we've ever had is 20.
Rob Chartrand (45:57.486)
Hmm. Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (46:06.638)
Okay. So is it like a small group or is it a gathering or yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (46:15.194)
Sometimes there's six of the diehards that won't miss it either. So it doesn't matter if they show up also into them. Jesus changed the world with 12 and often three. So I never despise the number. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (46:24.334)
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Hmm. That's great. What you say you don't do the prep for it. So who does all the prep and the setting up and all that who arranges everything?
Michelle Dwyer (46:39.002)
Our youth and young adults pastor. Yeah, so he calls the meeting, sets the time and the place and brings the snack. And because I already did all the prep for the sermon, my prep is done. Right? Like the content.
Rob Chartrand (46:41.454)
Okay.
Rob Chartrand (46:46.83)
nice.
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (46:53.818)
The content is already prepared. So it kind of seemed like young adults was phasing out when I got here and our youth pastor was a little discouraged and I was like, can we just have another go at it? And I on a Sunday got up and said, this is my heart and I want to hear from you guys. And if you want to get together, we're having snacks here tomorrow night at seven. And they came. Yeah.
Rob Chartrand (46:55.822)
Yeah, yeah, your heart's ready.
Rob Chartrand (47:14.798)
Okay. Yeah. Good for you. So why did you choose the young adults? Why not the seniors ministry? Why are you not?
Michelle Dwyer (47:20.954)
I love seniors. I do. That's such a good question. I mean, our seniors are established in their faith. I have young adult children. All my kids are in their 20s. So I've been very much immersed in their world. Their friends were always welcome in our home. And as I listen to them and I observe the culture they're dealing with, my heart is drawn. They need discipleship.
Rob Chartrand (47:33.582)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (47:45.422)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (47:48.794)
they're navigating stuff that I never navigated. That doesn't disqualify me from mentoring them because I know the Lord and I know His word. So let's talk about it. And how does this, how do we live this out in your generation?
Rob Chartrand (47:57.678)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (48:04.974)
Yeah, that's great.
Michelle Dwyer (48:05.818)
So probably a lot to do with the heart for my kids and their friends.
Rob Chartrand (48:08.302)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's such an important, I mean, all the studies and all the research that.
is out there. I think of the growing young Institute and, and their work, talking about the importance of leaders, creating welcome for the emerging generation, place of welcome, open handed with, with leadership. So this whole idea of giving them the keys to the kingdom, I mean, that so churches that are these bright spots where young adults and emerging adults stay and
thrive are churches that do just that, you know. So good on you. I'm so glad that the lead pastor has chosen to dedicate their time to come and hang out with young adults on a regular basis. Because that's it.
Michelle Dwyer (48:57.754)
They're so fun. I recommend it to anybody.
Rob Chartrand (49:00.334)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I wondered in our time, our time is almost done here. I wonder if we can end with you giving a word of encouragement to our listeners. You know, we think of our ministry leaders across the country and just so thankful for them listening in today. And they're just going through so many different experiences, but I wonder if you could share a word of encouragement for them, Michelle.
Michelle Dwyer (49:24.442)
What a privilege. It feels like a weighty thing to do, but the Lord sees you and He knows you. He called you by name.
and if you're listening right now.
I just bless you to be free from all the anxiety that comes with performance. Performance is going to destroy you anyway. The Lord loves you and your most effective ministry comes from stopping and humbling yourself before Him and receiving that first and foremost. There's lots of good wisdom programs, strategies, but the sustaining grace in ministry comes from dwelling in that love of the Father and the friendship with Jesus. When I was praying before we started, I...
at Colossians 3 .16 came to me and I learned it, memorized it in the King James as a kid, let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing. And I think as pastors, we quickly jumped to the teaching and admonishing. And it starts with, let it dwell in you richly. Or other translations will say, let the message about Christ and all its richness fill your life. It has to start there personally. I never use my quiet time with God to ever talk about the sermon.
Rob Chartrand (50:19.438)
Hmm.
Rob Chartrand (50:34.702)
Yeah.
Michelle Dwyer (50:34.81)
It's off -bounds. This is time for you and me to talk, God. Anything, anything else, but let it dwell in you, fill your life. And then from there, teach others. But the end of that verse says, sing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. And again, there as where I find so much life and I just would encourage others to set it all aside when you're getting blocked, stuck, anxious. Sing, sing the Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with a thankful heart.
Rob Chartrand (50:49.806)
Hmm.
Michelle Dwyer (51:04.57)
Always just keep on celebrating, not in that way we do to ignore what's uncomfortable, but paying attention to the beauty of what God is doing in simple places with a lot of gratitude.
Rob Chartrand (51:15.214)
Yeah, yeah. Good word. Thank you. Thank you. Well, it's been a privilege having you on the podcast today, Michelle. Thanks for your, your wisdom and your transparency and all that you shared and, look forward to maybe having you back here again sometime soon.
Michelle Dwyer (51:32.474)
Okay, well, it was really a privilege. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation.
Rob Chartrand (51:36.206)
Yeah, God bless. We'll talk soon.
Michelle Dwyer (51:38.746)
Okay, thanks Rob.